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Assaulting a fascist is self defense

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by cynthetiq, Aug 16, 2017.

  1. arkana

    arkana Very Tilted

    Location:
    canada
    If it makes you feel any better, @Remixer I would put my money where my mouth is, as much as I could with my below average-size male body.

    If I don't respond to all the posts and points I see here it's because I either lack the intelligence to do so, see that there's no point in persuading reactionaries, or I just think the points are dumb. In your case, me having a "history of simply stating" my position and "eager to repeat history" are hyperbolic points and my time is better spent on other things. Your mind is as made up as mine. I know that this is a discussion board, but I'm not breaking the rules by not engaging and you'll have to live with that. If you think not responding to you is a sign of missing back bone, you need to broaden your lens to include what's worth doing in this life. I'm trying to dip in here and see what's going on, but part of the mission isn't to persuade you, @Remixer.

    If you have noticed that I also don't acknowledge responses from Lord Eden, and are lumping that in with my "history of simply stating"... let me know. I'll be sure to hit "ignore" on you too. Time to move on.

    One point I will respond to is, to the "there are much better ways than to be militant towards them" notion, well...those things are being tried too. Activists haven't thrown the baby out with the bathwater...they're just now using the bathwater as well, lighting it on fire and aiming it at hateful mobs of big buys with guns.

    Whether they appreciate it or not, I'm glad some on this thread know I'd put my small body in harm's way to defend against a Nazi.
     
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  2. Wildmermaid

    Wildmermaid Very Tilted

    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    I'll put my weird bendy body in harm's way as well to defend against nazis. My grandfather fought them once and if need be I will do so as well to the best of my abilities.
     
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  3. Lordeden

    Lordeden Part of the Problem

    Location:
    Redneckhell, NC
    @Remixer Join the "Arkana thinks he is smarter than you" club! We have Punch and Pie every wednesday.

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Remixer

    Remixer Middle Eastern Doofus

    Location:
    Frankfurt, Germany
    No, @arkana, I don't particularly care much whether you decide to respond to the things I say, nor is my opinion on your backbone based on an insecure need of mine to be acknowledged. My main issue with you is the manner in which you offhandedly dismiss other people's viewpoints and the snide remarks you make about them. It's also not against the rules to show a bit of courtesy.

    I think little of your backbone because of these passive-aggressive mannerisms. Obviously my opinion of you is an extremely subjective assessment, and is based entirely on my personal interactions with different types of people in various regions of the world. I could certainly be completely wrong about you, although you will forgive me if I don't see it that way at the moment.

    Another point you're wrong about is my mindset. While I write in a definitive manner, I rarely have a mind set in stone and am actually pretty open to arguments presented by opposing parties. Certainly I will assess the validity of the argument presented, however outside of very few issues I always leave room to consider that my position may be fundamentally flawed and is in need of overhaul. Whether you choose to believe me on this is a different matter. It's not your duty to persuade me, though certainly some effort in making your case is warranted - unless of course you deem it pointless to invest the time.

    On a sidenote, while my sentiment on people's eagerness to repeat history may be hyperbole, it wasn't directed at you specifically. I was directing it at militant movements in general, such as AntiFa.

    Additionally, you say "I'd put my small body in harm's way to defend against a Nazi", however you were making the argument earlier that by simply being a Nazi an attack is never unprovoked and stated that you'd gladly punch one of them. That is not defense, and the crux of my issue with your viewpoint.

    Lastly, thanks for responding properly - it's much appreciated. Kudos from me.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2017
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  5. redravin

    redravin Cynical Optimist Donor

    Location:
    North
    @Remixer I do have to say that you are a lot more familiar with the AntiFa culture in Europe than I am.
    So I will take your word that they are much more militant.
    I am a student of the student movements and organizations in Europe in the 60s and 70s so this doesn't surprise me much
    I know people here in the US and most of them would gladly go back to doing food banks and what ever other volunteer work they were doing before they were kicking ass and taking names.
    Like I said many of them are Jews who really hate this shit but feel like it has to be done.
    There is a handful of anarchists who just want to see the world burn but they aren't part of the movement, just dress like them and cause trouble.
    Every group has its share of assholes but you have to look at its principles.
    When the AntiFa are out protecting clerics from being beaten up by Nazis as they did in Charlottesville I think they win.
     
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  6. arkana

    arkana Very Tilted

    Location:
    canada
    No longer expecting to persuade anyone who isn't, but in case you're still on the fence about all this, I recommend some of the distinctions made in this article:
    Not Rights but Justice: It’s Time to Make Nazis Afraid Again

    Here's a good part - that so-called "censorship" is not a slippery slope and hasn't worked to reduce Nazi activity anyways:

    Further, the whole point of Antifa and counter-protest is that it is outside the law because the law isn't helping human wellbeing in this case:

    And finally, yes "many sides" is false equivalence:

    Wow so this is what it feels like to be an old school, TFP Politics wall-o-text poster...
     
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  7. gruffman27

    gruffman27 New Member

    Location:
    Tennessee
    Wow, in reading all these posts, it makes me wonder if anyone can recognize racism. Neo- Nazis suck and so does Black Lives Matter. I read about BLM participating in lot of protests but it seems the left embraces a self proclaimed racist organization to be a welcome part of the protests. I think we can all agree that Neo - Nazis have no place in this country but neither do other racist organizations. I wished we could all get along but that's just wishful thinking. As long as there is a left, there will be a right. Unfortunately, I predict there is going to be much more bloodshed before things improve. Sad that it has come to this but millions put Trump in office and millions can't accept it. As for me, Right Trumps left.
    This is all I have to say on this matter and will not respond to any posts. Now, on to Panties around the ankles, Cock, thick women, etc.

    Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
     
  8. snowy

    snowy so kawaii Staff Member

    do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the
    utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by
    rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression
    would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them
    if necessary even by force; for it may easily tum out that they are not
    prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by
    denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to

    rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer
    arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore
    claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the
    intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching
    intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider
    incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the
    same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to
    kidnapping, or to the revival ofthe slave trade, as criminal."

    -Karl R. Popper, The Open Society and lts Enemies
     
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  9. Lindy

    Lindy Moderator Staff Member

    Location:
    Nebraska
    So, are some folks saying we should have open season on fascists? Which is to say anyone to the right of Marx and Lenin?

    Can we just go out looking for some old white dude in a Trump ball cap and defend ourselves against him with nightsticks and truncheons?
    Or are we limited to rocks and beer bottles?

    Violence certainly begets violence and once it gets started the retaliations can make everything look like Los Angeles gang wars and it never stops.

    And @redravin you should know that anti-Semites don't just live on the fascist right, or have you forgotten what the Worker's and Peasant's Paradise did to Jews, even good, progressive socialist Jews that were on the correct side?
     
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  10. redravin

    redravin Cynical Optimist Donor

    Location:
    North
    Sorry, but fascism is fascism no matter what name they choose.
    I had family who were communists and socialists but had no use for Russia or China.
    From their prospective, Stalin was a thug who pissed all over the principles of Marx so fuck him.
     
  11. Remixer

    Remixer Middle Eastern Doofus

    Location:
    Frankfurt, Germany
    @redravin, my familiarity with AntiFa is mostly due to my father, who was deeply involved with the German student movements in the 70s and 80s with a lot of his acquaintances from back then having been AntiFa - one of his really close buddies even today was a fairly influential figure within it. While they mostly organized gatherings, discussion forums/speeches, and participated in hunger strikes... occasional clashes did happen.

    Ideologically I am leaning far more to the left's base principles and I have no problem with combating the far right - as long as it's done in a civilized and peaceful manner through extensive use of the system. Nazi movements, memorabilia and texts are banned in Germany, and we are culturally quite sensitive on the subject - however, even though our police does a lot of work to monitor their activities and bust them for any transgressions or violence, we do acknowledge that it is impossible to eradicate the far right mentality lest we engage in another genocide.
     
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  12. redux

    redux Very Tilted

    Location:
    Foggy Bottom
    There appear to be some here who continue to skirt around the issue of a growing and violent right wing neo-nazi, white supremacy movement in the US. It started with the election of a black man as president and has been further emboldened and empowered with the election of Trump, who they see as having some shared values (particularly the anti-immigrant, anti-refugee, economic nationalism message) . With his words and actions following events last weekend in Charlottesville, Trump further emboldened these groups and inflamed the fires of racist, anti-semitic hate speech.

    The growing backlash across the country, from my perspective, is a positive response. For the most part, it has been
    peaceful as was evident in Boston where 30,000 counter-protesters exercised their right of free speech and assembly to drown out the message of hate and ignorance of the far right original protesters, with only a handful of arrests.

    I hope such counter-protests continue wherever those alt-right haters assemble. It is matching free speech with louder free speech and assembly with a larger assembly. But that is not enough.

    Trump and the majority Republican Congress need to acknowledge this growing violent far right movement and take action to send a serious message that it will not be tolerated, yet they continue to resist shining any light on this dark movement.

    GOP chairmen resist hearings on white supremacy

    Let's hope growing public pressure will continue to raise awareness and demand action. I dont think it will work with Trump; I can only hope Republicans in Congress have more a conscience.
     
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  13. Remixer

    Remixer Middle Eastern Doofus

    Location:
    Frankfurt, Germany
    I don't think anyone is skirting around the neo-Nazi threat being a real and growing issue in Western society. The main opposing view here seems to be centered around the position purported by some that it is OK to assault Nazis outside of the definition of self-defense.

    It's fine to counter-protest, and fine to clash in cases where neo-Nazis are directly attacking and people are defending themselves or others around them. Just don't go pick a fight, attack unprovoked or create mobs to hunt them down, is all that's being said. It ruins the left's credibility in the public eye and does more harm than good for them.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2017
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  14. redux

    redux Very Tilted

    Location:
    Foggy Bottom
    The counter-protests are growing so there is little or nothing to suggest the left's credibility is being ruined, other than among the Trump base . A handful of arrests in Boston among 30,000 counter-protesters is indicative of the fact that while the antifa types may be at the foundation, the counter-protests are much more representative of a broader cross section of concerned Americans.

    In Europe, the response appears to have been voters turning away from the far right nationalists in elections earlier this year in France, Austria, The Netherlands and apparently with the upcoming election in Germany.

    Someone still needs to send that message to the White House where there is a serious lack of moral leadership.
     
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  15. Lindy

    Lindy Moderator Staff Member

    Location:
    Nebraska
    Have you not noticed? That message has been sent from all around the world, from Republicans, Democrats, all kinds of social media, domestic and foreign traditional media. Do you really expect that sending more messages will have any effect on that bone-headed nitwit that sits in the White House?
     
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  16. redux

    redux Very Tilted

    Location:
    Foggy Bottom
    True

    But we have seen small steps to rid the White House staff of the worst influences.

    Steve Bannon out. Sebastian Gorka next?
     
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  17. redravin

    redravin Cynical Optimist Donor

    Location:
    North

    From your lips to G-ds ears.
     
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  18. Charlatan

    Charlatan sous les pavés, la plage

    Location:
    Temasek
    Solving the immediate issues of neo-Nazis and their alt-right associates should be taken up with peaceful, non-violent, and vociferous demonstrations and counter-protests.

    These are immediate concerns. The long term solutions to this are far more important, and will take time.

    The average American feels that the American system is failing them. Incomes have been stagnant (or declining for decades). The neoliberal policies to cut taxes, make government smaller, and to privatise public institutions has resulted an America that is verging on economic, social, and political failure. It's not surprising that someone was elected on, "Make America Great Again". Add to this the fact that the media (including social), education and healthcare are not working, not serving us well, means that the US is a hot mess. It's hot messes like this that lead to authoritarian leadership. Crisis politics never works in the people's favour.

    I have been saying elsewhere that it's going to get worse before it gets better. I hope I am wrong.

    TL ; DR - don't punch Nazis unless it's in self-defence. Instead, do the hard work needed to actually make America great again.
     
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  19. SirLance

    SirLance Death Therapist

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  20. POPEYE

    POPEYE Very Tilted

    Location:
    Tulsa
    I read most of these posts.
    And some balance the fence. Out of erring on the side of caution.
    Others have a hidden underline hatred.
    If this issue was in your face, your actions to protect your family and livelihood would tell us all whom you really are.
    Being a Oklahoman, I would not punch a nazi in the face. Or take the time to discuss their rights in the US
    Fuck them
    To protect my family and way of life I would shoot them Nazi mother fuckers in their face and discard the gun.
    We have the right to maintain our lives.
    Violence begat violence.
    Verbal is mental and is the precursor to physical.
    This is one reason why I stock pile food and ammunition
     
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