Why the 04 Acura TL is the pinnacle of automotive perfection!
 

(Disclaimer: Much of this thread is tongue-in-cheek sarcasm. The whole point is that I'm arguing that the TL is the best car on the market today)

Ok rather than threadjack bobby's post, I decided to take on all you peeps who seem to think a stripped down cheap-ass junior racer is somehow a better car than the Acura TL.

So you take a look at all the hard performance statistics. OF COURSE the SRT-4 is gonna beat the TL in a race. The TL is not a race car, you goons! It's a LUXURY SPORT SEDAN. That means it has enough power and handling to do ANYTHING it wants on the freeway, but you're not gonna see it burning up the race track.

Please take your cheap piece of shit comparisons to OTHER piece of shit American cars.

The TL has but a few competitors:
Lexus ES330 - slower, more luxurious boat-like, less sport
Infiniti G35 Sedan - Slightly less power, cheap-ass interior
Audi A6 - Way less bang for the buck
BMW 330i - Tight ride, but much less power and less features
BMW 5-series - Equivalent features and power.. for $15K more.
Cadillac CTS - The next closest competitor, too bad it won't last 1/3 as long as the TL will. It's also $5K more after price jack, with less power.

For the price, the Acura TL simply owns all for what it is. Don't compare a Celica to a Grand Marquis. Don't compare a PT Cruiser Convertable to a Z4. I don't care how fast your SRT-4, Mustang, or Monte Carlo is - you wouldn't catch me driving one over a TL. It's like ghetto living.

Oh, and for kicks.. Mazda 6?

http://us.autos1.yimg.com/img.autos....19_346x270.jpg

You get what you pay for with Mazda.

Re: Why the 04 Acura TL is the pinnacle of automotive perfection!
 

"OF COURSE the SRT-4 is gonna beat the TL in a race."

SRT-4 is still a NEON. A Dodge Neon. A Dodge. Economy car. Of course, it's souped-up/tricked-out like crazy. Still a Neon in my eyes though.

TL is indeed a great ride although I'm not sure if it's the "pinnacle"
of automotive perfection. But you're right, it does have a lot
of things going for it compared to most competitors out there.
Any news when the new RL will be coming out. Similar styling to
the TL?

About the comparison with the BMW330i...well, there is no comparison. As near as I can tell, the TL is front wheel drive..which well..is pretty worthless for a sports car. I dont care if the TL has 50 more hp, the fun of a sports car isnt acceleration, its tight cornering..drive a BMW, or any decent RWD sports car with a 50/50 weight distribution (the TL has a mediocre 60(front)/40(rear)).

Ok, well you may have your played-out yuppie status symbol BMW. I'll take the traction of FWD, the best safety ratings in the class, and signifigantly more affordable parts.

For me, the BMW M5, or the Cadillac CTS-V are the way to go. Six speed manual transmissions, 400+hp V8s, rear wheel drive, honest to goodness handling, critter comforts up the wazoo...true fun. Sure, the BMW is a $70k car, and the CTS-V is around $50k, but both cars are excellent, both cars are built on a proven platform, with proven hardware.

I agree that the Acura is a solid car, but honestly, it's an overpriced Honda, with a few extra little goodies here and there. I saw one in person the other day...can't say that I was impressed. I haven't driven one yet, maybe that would change things. It didn't sit well for me...the ergonomics just weren't quite right.

Oh, and personally, I'll take the traction of RWD, as under acceleration, it's more apt to stick than front wheel drive, as the weight shifts to the rear. In the winter (where I am, and you're not, of course), rear wheel drive is equally as capable in most circumstances with a judicious right foot. With today's traction control systems, FWD has no advantage, although, all wheel drive does.

FWD only has better traction than RWD under inexperienced hands. And how is a BMW any more of a yuppie car than an Acura??

I never thought anyone would ever THINK to argue against BMW being the supreme yuppie car of all time... amazing.

Pseudo-rich dickheads all drive BMW's. Its like their secret decoder ring. I don't have anything against BMW's, and if I drove one I would make it a point to be an ass to the rest of them. I will agree with Hal that the TL does have a shitload of bang for the buck. I personally prefer coupes, and I really like the looks (and sound) of the Infiniti G35 coupe. If I were to go with a sedan, I'd like the German engineered Audi A4 3.0.

Honestly I dont care if someone thinks my car is "yuppie". Cars should be bought based on features and price, not a stupid stigma associated with them.

Also, I love Acuras. Several of my immediate family own one. The TL is a wonderfull car, and you get what you pay for, if not more. However, I cant fairly compare it to a sports car with a RWD transmission. The two cars might be mildly similar on paper, but they would be completely different on the road.

edit: P.S. Love the new avatar pic Hal. :)

My main beef with the TL is that it's front-wheel drive. I test drove a V6 Accord Coupe a few months ago and liked it, except for that trait.

I guess if you drive nothing but FWD cars you get used to the odd steering feel and the tendency to dart off to the side when you gun it, but I've never owned anything but rear-drivers so anything else feels very unnatural to me.

Seems like the Volvo S60 fits in well with the competitors. The T5 gives approx. same HP (MY05 T5 is 260HP) and fwd as well. Or go up to the S60R for AWD and 300HP. Granted, a few grand more than the TL, but certainly in line with your list of competitors.

I owned an E46 M3 and if you want to compare a Honda/Acura to it, well, that's laughable. Obviously you've never driven one. Don't get me wrong, the Acura is one hell of a nice car, but in no way does it compare to ANY 5-series IMO. An A6, yeah, maybe. But the 05' A6 is awfully nice. You also forgot to mention, Audi/BMW and Mercedes are ALL available in AWD in that price-range and car class.

Bang for the buck? You HAVE to throw the new C-Class in the mix. Starting at 29,000, it's very comparable to the TL in terms of buck bangage. A $35,000 C-Class will be very close to what the TL is at that price. As far as reliability and quality, Mercedes has promised it's build quality issues are fixed, so the C-Class has to be a worthy opponent in that class of car.

Other then that, your right on. I love the TL, except front wheel drive. Car and Driver even said they could charge 50g's for that car, but they can't, because it's front wheel drive. I wish Acura would make an AWD version of the TL, I would jump on it in a second.

i'm sorry but i can't stand the tl my mom had one as a loaner for her mdx i drove it all day and didn't feel good in it at all i didn't feel in controle, i didn't feel like it was an extension of my body in the slightest it felt like i was driving a rc car,just puting in information and seeing a change but feeling nothing

i love that you love your car and you should but give me a 330ci zhp any day or my 528i and i am as overjoyed as a dog with a fresh chew toy :)

I didn't include the Volvo 'cause that interior is so dreadfully bland, you'd fall asleep behind the wheel if you ever took your eyes off the road.


..and I never ever ever mentioned an M3.. what you smokin' Kurant?

Chrysler's 300C seems to be more car for the same buck as the TL, but with RWD and a v8. more power, gobs more torque, more room inside and out, refined rwd platform.

also by the way the CTS comes close as well when equipped with the 3.6 shortstar. as for lasting quality, time will tell, however from first hand expeirience i have no doubt as to how long they will last.


not to mention saab's 9-3 viggen... less power, but wieghs a good 400 pounds less, with more torque. not to meniton thebest handling FWD setup i have ever experienced.

Throwing a Chrysler into the mix is like fighting with a paper sword! C'mon! The 300 is FUGLY and heavy. It only comes in Auto. Has crappy gas milage.

Did I mention that the TL is a ULEV? Don't even bother to look at the 300's index.

I drove the CTS before I discovered the TL. I can tell you that I was fully obsessed with getting one. Seriously... that car was gonna be mine. UNTIL I discovered the TL. Simply more features on the TL, SIMPLER ones too.

Don't even mention Saab. Please. The degradation those pieces of shit go through in their first year is ridiculous. The only reason why they hold any value at all is because they are undersold - because they suck.

While you may love the TL, calling ANY car the "pinnacle of automotive perfection" is stupid and immature.
First off, power is eliminated from the equation when you can't put it down. RWD has many advantages to FWD when it comes to driving. The inherent weight transfer advantage during acceleration and the lack of torque steer lets a RWD car put the power to the pavement much better than FWD cars. Also, keeping the steering and driving wheels independent of each other leads to both more spirited and safer driving. In a FWD car what happens in snow or rain when you hydroplane or lose traction? Both steering and accleration are eliminated from the driver's control, whereas in RWD you still have power to maneuver.
Meanwhile the 300C, G35, and CTS are nipping at your heels, each with their own strengths and weaknesses for equal prices as your blessed TL. Complain about the G35's "cheap" interior? Watch it pass you handily with it's less power at the track/on the freeway wherever for 4g's less. Moan about how the 300's an auto? Look at it, listen to it, watch it roast it's tires and try to contain your jaw from dropping to your toes. I know I can't. Proclaim about how little power the CTS has? It just got more with the new engine, specifically 255 more horses and 252 lb-ft.

CrazySaturn, you should seriously rethink your wording. My thread title is purely sarcasm, quoting a line from bobby's post that was in danger of being threadjacked. Do your research and learn some manners.

Halx, while your TL does offer a whole lot of bang for the buck, in my eyes it lacks personality. I like a car with very distinctive styling, a car that won't be mistaken for a family grocery-getter at a glance.

IMO, this is a wonderful time to be into cars. The engineering, efficiency, and quality are so much better than ever before. But it seems like too many of them are lacking in soul and personality.

I guess this is why I still yearn for an NSX, even though I do have a fairly distinctive car now.

Isn't the TL the JDM verison of the Accord?

might want to look at that milage again, being that it is rated at 17/25. which for a vehicle that weighs 600pounds more, produces 70 more hp and 152 ft-lbs of torque more than yours ain't bad at all, espiccally when you consider your is only doing 20/30.

as for emissions index, in all relaity i don't give a damn, as the level of output is soo damn low now anyways.

i'm with crazysaturn...

if your entire thread is purely sarcasm then you are starting arguement simply for the sake of it and it's his total right to disagree with you, just as everyone else has. and as for manners, his post is just as, if not more, mannered than yours

"Please take your cheap piece of shit comparisons to OTHER piece of shit American cars"

sarcasm or not, that's not good manners.

The *thread* isn't sarcasm. And I never called anyone's actions stupid and immature. If you're gonna post, post about cars. buddy. Don't bring me off the subject. You're allowed to get spirited about it as long as you don't insult anyone.

All CrazySaturn was ranting about is the kinda bullshit that Car and Driver magazine publishes. Who do those idiots cater to? They treat every single review as if the car is supposed to stack up to a Ferrari. I think I'm trying to make my point that it doesn't matter how fast your car goes - style points count as well.

One more thing about the G35 (The sedan does not go faster than the TL) is that it's HIDEOUSLY oversold. I can't drive down to Starbucks without seeing at least 5 of those things. One thing you should look for in a car is value durability - Nissan/Infiniti cannot offer that. Honda/Acura on the other hand take care of their customers by NEVER overselling their cars, thus keeping resale value high.

Nimi - that's fine if you don't care about emissions. I do. I suppose if you live in a large city like San Diego, the air is all ready fucked up enough to not give a damn, but it never hurts to give a shit. Furthermore, if the car is 500lbs heavier, I don't care how fast it goes - it's not gonna corner as well, even after modifications.

Gimli, the TL is based off the Accord platform, but I believe the TSX design is the JDM Accord.

bodypainter, your attraction to distinction may have won you some admiration with your new car, but here in LA, you wouldn't get a second glance unless it's either brand new, an SL500 or a CL55 AMG. I get people pulling up next to me on the freeways all the time to check out my car. You tell me that's not attraction and personality.

Honda and Acura not overselling? The reason they have good resale is because they are good reliable economy cars. They may not have the best interiors, the most powerful engines, or the most attractive exteriors, but they are great cars for average people.

As for the G35, every test I've seen so far has the G35 beating the TL. Also, I think the interior is quite nice.

As for your response to Nimi, how about I don't care how much less it weighs, it's not going to corner as well because it's FWD?

You're not calling anyone stupid or immature, true, but you're bashing people's cars like no tomorrow, which can easily be taken as a personal insult. Some of your quotes:
"Ok, well you may have your played-out yuppie status symbol BMW."
"I didn't include the Volvo 'cause that interior is so dreadfully bland..."
"C'mon! The 300 is FUGLY and heavy."

I'm not ranting about how C&D talks about cars, I'm ranting about how you are shooting everyone's ideas down with a seeminlgy non-open mind.

Hey, you're hittin' at my car, I can hit at yours :p

Dude, loosen the hell up. Sorry I got your panties in a bundle, but you should stick to your guns and have fun with the subject instead of trying to rain on my delivery.

What I'm saying is where the TL may lack in speed against other cars, it makes up for it in luxury. Your arguements were something that you can get out of reading a magazine like Car and Driver.

And what are you talking about the G35 beating the TL in tests? Ohh.. wait.. yeah.. Car and Driver. They are heavily biased against FWD cars. They ranked it 3rd behind the G35 and the CTS because of that. What you forgot to mention was that it was ranked top in Engine, Interior and Exterior. The only reason why it ranked 3rd over all was because of the mountain road fetish of the C&D critics, lost a lot of points for being FWD - and the G35, which was ranked 2nd in every category ended up with the best over all score. I read that article while I was bored in an airport.

So what IS the TL also the best in it's class at? Let's start with safety. Best crash ratings in it's class. Emissions? Best. Reliability? Consumer rated best.

Face it, it's one great automobile.

It seems to me like a lot of people are taking this thread waaaay to seriously. Calm yourselves kids, the boss just got a brand spanking new car, give the man a break. Most of us would do the same thing. I know I would. The more I look at it, I really have fallen in love with the TL. I think I'd take it over an A4. I'd take mine in black with black leather though. I'm behind Hal 100%, the car kicks ass for the green you pay for it. And you don't trip over one every block like you do other cars... BMW's for example.

my point is when looking at the jnumbers seperating a LEV, form a ULEV, from a SULEV, and form PZEV vehicles, the numbers aren't that different. you probably have never even the smog prinout for your car let alone any other new (within the last 3 years) car to make the comparison on. the best civic 10 years ago could probably not match the emissions of an LS1 corvette, or hell even a v8 truck today. the air quailty in socal sucks for two reasons; one is the geography, you live in a valley surrounded by large mountains (rouhgly 5000 foot difference betwen the valley floor and the mountains i bet) and i live at sea level with a 5000 foot mounatin range 50 miles east of me. unlike i other parts of the country the smog gets trapped int he area directly overhead since its not going to get pushed up and over the mountains. thats why emissions testing beyond the mounatins is only required in those area at the time of sale. gthe second reason is volume, there are more cars in socal than there are in any other part of the world. everyone driving ULEV, SULEV, etc isn't going to have the same affect because of the geography anyways.

Second vehicle wieght contributes to handling, but not nearly as much as hpw the weight is handled and balanced by the car. a heavy car with even weight distrabution and a low unsprung weight can out handle a siginifcantly lighter car with an uneven wieght balance and terriable sprung weight. despite its signifcantly lower weight no one will try to claim an insight will outcorner a corvette.

Speaking only for myself I would say that when I posted earlier I was speaking only for myself.

I don't give much of a flip what anyone else thinks of my car. Mercedes isn't a rare thing around here either and in fact it seems like every 4th car on the road in Sarasota is German. It's what the car does for *me* when I look at it and what it does for *me* when I drive it that's important. That's right folks, it's all about me. :)

I think Halx's TL is very cool. If I was in the market right now for a new 4-seater I'd give it a good hard look. I certainly can't refute his assertions concerning the car.

Every 1/4 mile and 0-60 stat I've seen puts the G35 in front.

As for the up tight thing, the way you put everything and the inherent lack of smilies, as well as just watching other people get frustrated/ticked off, just seemed like you were trying to start trouble, which seemed really out of character in the first place!

Glad I've finally got it figured out! :p

Seems that FWD vs. RWD really divides people. I have a staunch opinion on the matter as well. Regardless, it's hard to argue that Honda has not provided good value in this near-luxury category.

I still miss the original Legend coupe and I wish they hadn't done away with that name. It had started to have a stigma about it. I still remember the R&T headline, "Will America Accept A $25,000 Honda?" But that was 1986...

So, Halx, welcome to your well-deserved realm of the near-luxury car. Hats off.

I've been ragged on for my lack of smileys for years. What is wrong with you people? You can't properly read a post without emoticons? :p :p :p :D :) ;)

I'm also known for delivering sarcasm and puchlines with a straight face.

TL owns joo!!!111!!11!

Are you sure you're not looking at G35 Coupe trials?

Yep, everything I've seen so far has said the G35 beats the TL 6-speed.

Smilies are fucking retarded.

/threadjack.

You may now continue to squabble.

I'm not sure I'd say that the TL is the pinnacle of automotive either...if anything, you might say that it's the pinnacle of an luxury sedan (but then I'd argue that too)..if i had to pick a best car that acura has ever designed, I'd pick the NSX, I would call that the pinnacle of automotive (price notwithstanding)...the TL is pretty good car but I find that its design doesn't compare to say..an infiniti....just my opinion

Could you maybe elaborate on this? Because I really don't see how the S60's interior could be at all bland. I find it to be extremely comfortable, functional, and non-distracting. Let's face, when I'm driving, the only time the car's interior should ever catch my attention is when something mechanically has gone wrong. Elsewise, the interior should provide quick and efficient means of accessing trip information and facilitate mindless operation of car controls, all of which the Volvo interior does quite well. And as far as attractiveness goes, I fail to see how the S60 isn't. For people's reference:

The Acura TL
<img src="http://www.acura.com/images/tl/tl_gallpop_img12_int.jpg" alt="Acura TL">

The Volvo S60
<img src="http://www.swedespeed.com/gallery/generated//FWD%20and%20AWD/S60/Interior/001__scaled_600.jpg" alt="S60 Interior">

Wow! That Volvo interior actually looks fantastic! Who would've thought?

Ack... the bumblebee black/yellow stripes would drive me nuts on that Volvo.

I don't see anything wrong with mazda's, I might ever drive one, but I like there look!

Well, I do have to concede that the Volvo interior I've shown is no longer available. Personally, I love it and wish it were still available, then it'd be in my car. But unfortunately, it didn't do so well in the NA market, so it was discontinued over here. It does, however, have a sibling with black leather and blue cloth with is quite nice (with aluminum trim instead of wood), I just couldn't find any good pictures of it.

Uhh yeah.. that S60 interior is PURE SHOW. The interior that comes on the models that they actually sell is lame. You didn't show the front console and the dash - flat and uninspiring.

As for when does the interior MATTER? Hmm... let's take last Saturday night as an example. I took a girl out to a club in my TL. She was so floored by the sheer style of my car... well... I'm gonna make sure we go out again soon. :)

Your taste in cars reflects on you. I suppose if you're a neutered pet husband, it doesn't matter as long as the car runs cheap (TL, rated by Edmunds to be lowest cost-to-own in it's class) but regardless of if some of you don't see personality in this car - women perceive the very masculine styling of this car. Put it all together.

Slightly off-topic:

HalX- I wasnt trying to call you out in that other thread or anything. Its just that it seemed like since you got your car (and congratulations), anytime anyone mentions another car, you're there with a... "Isnt a TL," or a.... "The TL has more class/lux/sportiness/performance/etc." And no one would say anything because you are "the boss," as someone put it. It was just getting old, so I fugured I'd throw a comment out there. :p

As far as comparing the TL to the SRT4, I only did so because someone said the TL would outperform the SRT4 on a track (stock for stock) which simply isnt true. I do realize that the two cars are in a completely different category.


On topic:

I think the TL is a great looking car, with respectable power numbers, but I just cant get past the FWD thing. The interior looks ok (if you like that space-ship look), but more gadgets = more shit to break.

For me, performance is more important than luxury or style.....just the way I am.
As far as the TL having so much "style" and "class" and all the people "pulling up on freeways to check it out"........ well thats great and all but I say So What. But then again, i dont really need other people to like my car, or be impressed with it, or be envious of it, etc to feel good about myself or my purchase. ;)

Now as far as "women perceiving its very masculine styling," cmon. Really. Its a good looking car, but its far from masculine. It's svelte and smooth, quiet and refined. Very feminine qualities. If you want masculine, pull up in an illegally loud, loping, rumbling American V8 with so much torque to the rear wheels that pushing the Go-Pedal makes you cream your pants. Rest assured, she will too. :p

That figures. I like that interior. I wish there was a demand for anything but dishwater gray and paper bag tan.

One of the nicest interior colors I've seen was in a mid-90s Cadillac. It was called oxblood. Which is a good description, but I'm not so sure about naming luxury car colors after bodily fluids.

bad30th.. I think you're assuming a lot for the ONE post in which I have said such a thing - and I did so only after the comparison was mentioned. Please dont blanket anything I do without doing research.

Now I'm not speaking from my own opinion when I say things about the styling. It's been written in several reviews that the styling is masculine, sharp, with a conservative rear end. The lines are sharp, fast and sexy. I may *agree* with these observations, but they are not my own original thoughts. I make sure that when i say something, I've read something to back it up.

The number of male TL owners VASTLY overshadows the number of female TL owners. This should tell you something.

When I pull up to an American muscle car, I have a few things on my mind. One of them is 'trash' - now that's not to pre-emptively judge the driver of the car, but on average, the main kinds of people who I see driving camaros, mustangs or monte carlos are fat middle-aged women, men with mullets and mustaches, or obnoxious latinos. Sure, I see a few decent people in the cars, but I see more decent people in Ford Focuses.

Corvette? Middle-aged men who use it for looks.
Viper? Whitebread yuppie.

No, I am not inspired by a modern car whose only redeeming value is an oversized, inefficient engine. If 'masculine' to you is loud and obnoxious, please do not invite me out for a drink.

Classic cars are another matter. If you have a classic muscle car, you just might be the real deal. It's respectable to see an old car in good condition.

Yeah, you're right about not caring what other people think of your car. It's not a justification, it's an added bonus. I suppose if you're absolutely oblivious to what people think of you too, I repeat - don't invite me out for a drink.

Hell, you're talking about the TL as if it CAN'T burn rubber, though. I can tell you that aside from the style of the car, I did show off all 6 gears to her too. She was impressed. I'm sure the 3-series I burned was too. 0-60 in 5.7 seconds is NOT slouching.

So there you have it, it's not about being a one-trick pony. It's about doing a lot of things at once and doing everything competently. The TL excells at that.

As far as all the gadgets - nothing's broken yet! As long as you use them, they are worth it, and that I do.

So here's my take. I wouldn't trade my TL for a car with twice the power, but no luxury. I wouldn't trade it for a car with twice the luxury, but no power. All the cars that offer more of both are more expensive, less reliable and are naturally less 'sporty'. Wave a Caddy CTS-V in front of my face and I'd still take a few days to think about it.

I've had my car for just over a month and it's absolutely perfect. Those who know me can appreciate this statement because I am perfectionist, tempermental and beyond picky.

I must say, Hal has peaked my interest in this car. I'm willing to forgive it's FWD. I wouldn't take it to the track.

Acura has floundered in their near-luxury offering since they invented the class in 1990-ish. I used to love Legend coupes. Awesome. I almost never forgave them for giving up that name for a soulless alphanumeric nomenclature. But such are the times. They invented the class! Why give up the heritage? And their offerings throughout the last ten years in their highest tier have been, well, forgettable. I've seen a lot of awfully drab TL-type things in my last decade. Hal, wouldn't you agree?

That's why I think this latest incarnation is finally a signal that Acura refuses to give up the niche it created and will put out a damn fine car, FWD or not, to re-stake its claim.

Hal, you're right - that damn car looks wonderful. Compared to the last TL's, which were utterly invisible, it seems Acura, nee Honda, has a point to make finally. And I don't think we've heard the last of them.

Enjoy the car - I doubt the FWD will ever show itself as a debit - this is not an autocross machine. It will take good care of you for a long time to come.

I'm interested...

May I scream out huge generalization here? So anyone with an old muscle car is the real thing, but any one with an american current sports car is a fraud? I agree with you that V6 Camaro/Stang owners in general are not enthusiast drivers, however this turns them into every possible offensible niche there is? My personal experience has had some assholes driving said cars, but many of them are true sporting drivers.

Also, you seem to have verged a heck of a lot of every argument on what to me is a basically superficial life. You seem like you're trying too hard to impress, and in the process are stomping on anyone who isn't at the leading edge of technology/styling etc.

As for the inefficient large engine comment, do you really need that V6 in there? It could easily be argued your engine is just as inefficient, I mean, how often do you need all 270 of those horses? Sure, passing, but then why are the 300+ in Z28's and SS's and the 250+ in Mustang GT's thrown into the inefficient section? Those same cars can get amazing gas mileage depending on how they're driven, yet they are still too large and inefficient? You sound as if you're setting standards by your car, which works for you, but not for the majority of other people.

I thought I worded myself well enough so that you MAY NOT scream out generalization. I think this thread is a good example of the fact that people only see what they want to see. It favors you to have me sound like I don't know what I'm talking about, so you see it that way - ignoring little words here and there.

Please.. read honestly.

I can get 38 mpg in my very efficient, very clean vehicle when I drive it properly. If I am to argue that the TL is the 'pinnacle of automotive perfection' (tongue in cheek) I must set the bar at it's level and then compare everything to it.

In no way am I saying that other cars are bad. I have respect for some Toyotas that last forever. I can dig a slick, useful GTI. I just may become green with envy at the sight of a BMW 760. However, all things compared, and considering that the TL is what this thread is about, I would be getting off subject to NOT set the standards for this discussion high.

Some unique features that I really enjoy about the TL:

HandsFreeLink - Bluetooth connectivity built into the console so you can take phone calls without taking your hands off the wheel. I use this feature a lot.

The navigation system - it's considered to be the best navi out there. It's completely integrated with the car and is totally easy to use.

Voice recognition - I can do anything by voice from adjusting the dual zone climate control, to changing the settings on the radio, to calling my sister on her cell. It's very accurate at recognizing the commands.

DVD-Audio compatibility - 5.1 surround sound in the CAR? Yeah... and it's pretty sweet too.

The sweet blue guages - Come on, even if you hate everything about this car, you gotta admit that the guages are fuckin' sweet.

No acusations here, but the combination of those two statements made me laugh.

As for the whole argument at hand, the two of us could never agree, as you once mentioned that despite the quality and beauty of the mods on your Accord, it just didn't feel right. I want to personalize everything I own. I wouldn't feel right in anything bone stock, short of a Ferrari or classic AC Cobra. Right now, my vision of combined power and luxury involves some extensive work on what used to be my mom's Town Car involving a Mark-VIII QOHC engine and some serious forced induction. If FWD hadn't been spoiled for me by my tractionless and torque steer-plagued Buick, maybe I could learn to love the TL, but I'll take a bigass pimptastic boat that I build by hand and paint for myself over anything that comes off of an assembly line.

well, i've got a '02 TL and love it. look forward to being able to trade it for the '04 TL soon.

In my opinion and experience, you get better bang for the buck with the TL. the features and performance specs are very close if not better than most of the cars in it's class, and the sticker is lower. it's been that way since the '02 TL came out.

but that's all i'll say. this argument looks like it won't change anybodies mind anyways.

MSD, the starbucks comment was also tongue-in-cheek. I need to write a manual on how to detect when I am joking.

About customizing - when you do that stuff, you're on your own when it comes to problems that may arise. Either you fix it yourself or you pay some guy to fix it who may or may not know the intricacies of your make and model. I found myself having issues and not trusting my resources. The dealership refused to work on them for any reasonable amount of money.

I'm not going to argue with anyone, but I will agree with Hal.

That's why I laughed instead of frowning and shaking my head :)

edit: sorry for the length! sheesh! I quote too much :p

My point was that it just seems like its always TL this and TL that.....

Couple examples:
The TL is better.
Honda is masculine and great.
My car is great.
TLs are rare and great.

:p Dont take offense I'm actually just kinda kidding around with you :p


But see now you're just......
:p

Says who? Are you stating this as fact because you see more guys driving them then girls?
If you're thinking that the "fat middle-aged women, men with mullets and mustaches, or obnoxious latinos" are trash in their Camaro or Mustang, would they be different in a TL? You'd still think "Trash," but then "Nice car." (Or maybe "nice car," and then "trash" as I'm sure you'd notice the car before the driver :p )

But now if you're thinking "trash" about the actual car, well then that just shows your automotive ignorance. If its an old-and-busted 7-different-color pile of V6 trash, then ok. But if you're thinking that a V8 Camaro/Mustang in excellent condition is trash, then like I said....ignorance.

I'd have a Corvette now if I had the means......but hey were not all porn stars.

Well Hal, first off I think you are forgetting about one little thing, which isnt surprising, since your amazing TL lacks it. Torque. "Oversized, ineffficient engines" make buket-loads of torque at very low rpm. And the inefficient part is pretty funny, since I get 20 mpg when I am driving like an idiot, and almost 30 on the highway. The LEV Honda S2000 barely gets that with half the cylinders.

As far as the loud comment, I dont think you are quite understanding what I'm saying, and the only way to really make you understand is to take you for a ride......which isnt exactly possible. So I'll just leave that alone. :D

I agree whole-heartedly.

Well you see Hal, its not that I'm oblivious to what others think of me, its just that I dont really care. And that doesnt mean I'm an idiot or I have bad personal hygene (or whatever you were getting at there), but I'm just not that shallow.

Congratulations. You bought a fast car. :D

You've had the car how many miles? Come back when you're up at around 100k and let us know how all those gadgets are doing. Then again, you probably wont have the car past 50k, so you're probably fine. :p

Then you purchased the perfect car for you. I really am happy for you. But that doesnt mean its the perfect car, period.

Again, dont get pissed off....my comments here arent meant to do that. Just having a discussion and giving you a little bit of a hard time. :p To quote, "Hey, you're hittin' at my car, I can hit at yours :p"

:D

See, man, I know what the tone of your post was, but I cant help but point out a few bad assumptions you made. Just because I am a fan of Honda/Acura doesn't mean I'm touting for the TL when I mention the company. You think I'm making up the bit about male vs female drivers - like I said, I gather my information before I make statements. I'll stop before I start sounding pissed.

But anyways, if you read between the lines a little bit, you'd see that I'm arguing that the TL is the best complete package you can buy today. I can see that a few people are agreeing with me, so I must have said something right along the way. They don't even own an 04 TL and they concur. Might I conjecture that those who are arguing may just be feeling a twinge of jealousy at how confident and happy I am with my car? Ahh, that would be assuming too much.

bad30th, I think you nullified your own point about ignorance about cars with your last little bit about me buying the perfect car for me.What? Did I not do enough research on myself to discover that a horsepower beast with bucket racing seats and a V8 that could conveniently tow the boat that I have no intention of owning any time soon is the perfect car for me? I must not know enough about cars to realize this.

i totally agree with Halx on this.. the TL is an amazing car.. my gf has a 330xi and ive driven it.. hot little car i'll give it that, but for the money spent on it, its not that justifiable. I'm trying to talk my dad into getting the TL we took one for a testdrive last saturday and hes in love with it, he let me take it out for a bit and well damn does that car handle like a dream, its very responsive (something i found my gf's 330xi a bit lacking). for what you pay for the TL you do get one of the best all around packages that are out there today in my opinion.

And I'll conjecture that going on and on about the superiority of your car and how other are so impressed by it is generally an indicator of some self-confidence issues.

Ahh, the difference is that I didn't conjecture. But you did. Hmm... this psychology is interesting!

ok i'll give you that. I stand corrected.

no i was genuinly asking. if you can show me some statistic where you got that, then cool.

Well sounding pissed or not, I hope you arent actually getting pissed about someone disagreeing with you. I wasnt mean or rude or insultive....just pointing out a few of my own observations and opinions.

Personally, for the money I'd rather buy a BMW 330i, but thats just me. I will agree, however, that the TL is a close runner-up (again, for me).

Hal, no offense meant at all, but did you ever think that maybe part of the reason that lots of people always agree with you everywhere and not many people disagree with you anywhere is because you are "the boss?" :shrug: Not saying thats entirely whats going on, but whatever. I dont own a Geo, and I say they are the greatest total package car ever. Am I right? God no.

wow...ummm...no. irseg already covered this, i think.

You're bypassing my point. Of course you didnt want that kinda of car.....you did buy one. Point is, for a lot of people, that Camaro or Mustang is their perfect car. And for you to think of it as trash just because it isnt your perfect car or because of some ill-gotten preconceived notion is ignorance. I never said you dont know enough or anything about cars, but its obvious that your magazine-and-online knowledge-base revolves around what you are interested in (namely, luxo-sport sedans), leaving out what you arent interested in (namely Camaros and Mustangs, etc).

And you never answered my question about whether you think the drivers you see in these cars (fat middle-aged women, men with mullets and mustaches, or obnoxious latinos :p ) are trash, or just the shitty cars are trash, or all the cars are trash....

Again, no offense man.... (maybe I should just put this in my sig. :p )

Theres only one way to solve this. Bad30th, MSD, etc whatever it is you actually drive, race Halx in the quarter mile.. This is round one. Next we will enter the cars in a carshow which is judged by the looks of the car, and the features. Next is the autocross, this will test handling and suspension. Next is a car audio competition. ETC ETC ETC.

The point of that was not to see which car is better, it is to show that each car is better in a different way. I think that all Halx wanted to say is that allaround his car is the perfect package FOR HIM. For him he wants a car that is fast, stylish, handles well, has gizmos gadgets, and is the all around package for his lifestyle and his driving needs. You on the other hand may go strictly for speed, and bypass the handling part of it, or the gadgets. This being said, to each their own.

well, matteo, some of the factors I mentioned are not competition factors. You can't compete on hard numbers such as safety ratings, milage, emissions, price/value, and owner satisfaction polls. All of which the TL excells at.

Anyways, bad30th, your paranoia about people agreeing with me simply because I'm 'the boss' is funny. Why is it funny? Because that's what EVERYONE who disagrees with me says. It's a convenient little support to lean on when your own arguments aren't cutting it, isn't it? Get over it. I possess logic that people can agree with and that's why I am 'the boss' in the first place.

So, what's trash? Trash is someone who lacks in some areas and overcompensates in others. Hence - easily affordable muscle. I wasn't blanketing everyone who owns a muscle car to be trash, but I was observing that most of them that I do see - ARE. I'll always appreciate a well-kept car, but Mustangs and the such are a dime a dozen. While I can see how such a car could be the pinnacle of someone's automotive expectations, it is far more likely that even though they could afford a nice, reliable, safe and sensible Accord for the same money, they got the Mustang because it hauls more ass. And that's about all it does.

BTW, that little bit about the conjectures - PURELY meant to get a rise out of you. Guilty.

I'd forgotten about one car. The new Pontiac GTO. If you NEED four doors, you're screwed, but otherwise...killer bang for the buck.

Halx, you used the word opinion once in this whole thread, and even then you were using it to solely say that magazines agree as well. :)

You seem to be turning what is opinion into fact. If you're not, show how you haven't, but I just haven't seen it.

Also, I drive a damned 94 Saturn SL2. It's an OK car, but is no where near a beautiful or stylish car. I don't wear any current popular trends, just what I see and I like. However, I've found that people come back for a second date with me because of my personality instead of my appearance. Sure, a Maserati would get me more women, but I'd rather not take someone who sees me for my car. :p

Uhhh.. the GTO? Bang for the buck? $32000 for a car with 350hp, a bland design (the concept was far better, though still not interesting), a cheap interior, a stereo that only amounts to 200 watts because it has 10 speakers, only 2 airbags and absolutely no other notable features? Ok. Right.

0-60 in 5.4 seconds. That's only .3 seconds faster than the TL, with 70 more HP and 130 more pounds of torque. I rest my case.. whatever it was.

CrazySaturn, if you drive that car, you BETTER have a great personality. (Elbow jab) And I gotta hand it to you for that. Truthfully, I got no disrespect for the economy cars - you do what you gotta do to get along.

And for reference, the G35 Sedan's 0-60 is listed at 6 seconds. Slower than the TL's 5.7

Where are you getting the 5.7?
Hey, at least my car has numbers AND letters in its name... :p

Well the commonly referred number is 5.7, but this C&D review put 'em at 5.8 - which is understandable because they clocked the G35 at slower than 6.
http://www.caranddriver.com/article....&page_number=6

I think Hyundai is kicking everyone's ass in the number and letter combination names.

Hmm where have I heard that before......oh yeah......thats exactly what I said....
Well as a matter of fact, no, Hal. You are as much of a dick on these forums as I am, except that you are the boss and I am not. People get pissed at me all the time....and RARELY do people get pissed at you. Almost nobody disagrees with you. Ever. Guess what.....you're a measly 21 years old, just like me. You are not a wise elder who has traveled the world and been around longer than dirt. And you are "the boss" because you happened to start this forum. Admittedly, a good idea....obviously. :p Its not a matter of me getting over it......its a matter of you getting over yourself.

So is a race car trash? It has no luxury, but goes fast exceedingly well....

I bought my Camaro to go fast and handle well. I stiffened pretty much every component of the suspension and chassis as I could (not quite done yet) so that I could improve that handling. Why? Because I am a poor college student who also like to go fast and race his car., but doesnt give a rat's ass about luxury. No, my car isnt one of those pile of shit beater IROC Camaros you see in a heap by the side of the road with Pedro working under the hood, but rather a '97 30th Anniversary Z28. If you've never driven a newer Camaro, then I'm sure you will lump it together with your view of all the others you've seen. So even tho going fast is my passion (as opposed to being perceived by other people in a certain way), and I am probably as picky and meticulous as you are about keeping my car clean and mechanically perfect, my car is trash. :hmm: But see thats ok because I love my car. Thats all that really matters.

To be honest, I dont really know why I'm going on like this.....I like the TL. I guess its just your air of superiority about it that gets me.....but for all I know, thats just how you are with everything. :shrug:

Well done. Ass. :p :D

I gotta say you're giving age too much credit for wisdom. You think the TFP is a big accident? There's a reason this ego is as big as it is - I'm successful! Quick! Someone hit me with a little humility! So you're 21 years old - it's ok that you are who you are. I'm not asking you to be anything like me. I'm not comparing you to me either. I simply see the world through different eyes than you and I embrace that fact willingly; knowing that we may disagree at every step of the way, but at least it's not bitter discourse with vindictive agendas. Oh wait.. nevermind.

I'm just gonna keep sitting here with this stupid grin on my face until you realize that people are agreeing with me because I'm right. Come on.. it's ok to admit it. You even alluded to it yourself. You like the TL. Is it so hard to realize that other people do as well? They also agree to arguements based on their content and merit, not because they're afraid to disagree. Hell, I'm not forcing anyone to reply to this thread, yet they are; piping in with their 2 cents. Give up the crusade!

Furthermore, I like how you took exception to various things I said and applied them to yourself, even when I constantly noted that I wasn't blanketing everyone, but talking about the majority. You take every opportunity to step in front of the bullets when you know they are not aimed at you.

Anyways... 'going fast' means what? Breaking 170mph on a daily basis? Beating other cars in races? It's cool that your passion is going fast - it's mine too. That's why I got a car that can cream anything it meets on the freeway in traffic. It's max speed is about 165 mph and truthfully, I've never driven faster than 140mph in ANYTHING. How about you? Do you use all of your bird's power on a daily basis?

Back to the arguement... the TL is fast. It's not a street racing car, and who cares about the quarter mile in a SEDAN? When you put your foot to the pedal, you will be propelled forward at a satisfying pace, just like any other car with power. The differences in this area of performance are miniscule that to argue if a car is better or not, you are forced to look at the extras. You are forced to take into account the luxury accomodations and the reliability. That's the whole friggin' point. Sure, you even mentioned that you needed to tune your car to make it into what you wanted it to be - how about a car that is more like what you need it to be as it comes stock? Can you catch my drift?

I also pray to the Gods who do not exist that you are able to detect which parts of that post are sarcasm and which are not.

Ech... I'm tired of this. On second thought, I gave accolades to the TL on the "Hal's the Boss" premise. Sorry. I'm embarassed. Egos; not cars are in question here.

This does seem to be a 21-year-olds' conversation. I almost always avoid these and wish I had now.

Have a couple of children and see how much of your soul and 'datability' you project into a FWD Honda.

Guy buys car. Guy likes car. Guy bashes many people from beneath the shadow of car. Guy argues with many more people from under the car. Guy looks like dork. Jeesh. Get a gold chain and a toupee. Or maybe try something more important.

*mourns Gimli*

Poor fella... read too much into it and got frustrated. It wasn't supposed to end this way!!

Everything in the car seems to be awesome except the front wheel drive. It was either Car and Driver or Road and Track that picked the automatic version over the stick because of too much power to the front wheels. Im glad you like it, cause that would drive me nuts.

As for Mazda's, I thik their great, but that aside, your not making a fair comparison. The base price for a Mazda 6 is way under the TL. In fact the base TL price is more than than the base RX-8. The Mazda 6 is not marketed against Acura. Its marketed against Honda and Toyota. Acura TLs are marketed at 3 series BMWs and C Class Mercedes,

And definetly NOT marketed against muscle cars...and other forms of domestic competitors.

right madsenj37, I wasn't the one who made the original comparison. It was in another thread.

Meh, I think the TL is a very nice car. I wouldn't say its the best car ever, but its a good car. I would definitely consider it if I were going to buy a new car. But I happen to like sporty sedans. That being said, I don't think it has enough personality to make me go "wow" when I see one.

So my vote is: good car. Not perfect for me. Glad its perfect for Halx, because he owns one :p

I have to agree with Hal on this. From what I've seen and from what I've read about the TL they seem to be the best car for the money. And no I'm not agreeing with Hal because he's the boss that's just lame, if he'd said "Why the 96 Camaro is the pinnacle of automotive perfection!" I would have disagreed with him in a second.

I think this was taken care of already, and wasn't there a thread on this heap?

Here's a link to a site that shows the depreciation ratings for various cars. Of all the cars you mentioned the G35 has the highest resale value.

Personally having driven the TL, BMW 3-series, and the G35(coupe). I love them all. But once you've really explored RWD, FWD cars feel handicapped. I think that's why the TL loses reviews. If you are a driving enthusiast and have owned a well balanced RWD sports car, then you know what I'm talking about.

I'm probably a bit biased (I own a 300ZX TwinTurbo) but I think I'd take the G35(coupe).

Well, I'm going to go ahead and take your first two paragraphs as sarcasm.....especially that "successful" part.....

And as far as going fast, no. I'm talking about real racing, not drag racing. I had to do the clutch on my car, but once its broken in, I'll be racing the shit out of it at actual racing events (AutoX and Road courses probably 3 to 4 weekends a month). Thats what I mean when I say I race my car and that going fast is my passion. I'm not some idiot highway racer and stoplight champion. Anyone can go fast in their car in a straight line and take it up as high as it'll go on the freeway or whatever. Highway racing is for idiots and top speed doesnt mean shit. And by the way, I hope you are not spouting off your top speed because your speedometer goes that high..... Drag Limited. When you hit that 165 in stock trim, go ahead and let me know. :p

And as far as me needing to tune my car to make it into what I want it to be....well ya. Youre right. EVERY automotive entusiast would tune ANY car they own and love. Theres something to be said for doing a little work yourself and making your car your own, making it into something better for you. Shit I seem to remember reading somewhere in one of your posts that you're thinking about some new wheels and lowering the TL a little bit. I say more power to you.

And I love how since this thread isnt everyone holding hands and singing songs, but actual discussion and debate, people are so quick to jump in with "I usually stay out of these 21 yr old conversations," and "This thread turned to shit," etc. Guess what....we're still talking about the TL, the thread has just expanded a little. So fucking what.

But now that silent_jay is here, I better go.....I'm wrong any way you look at it now.

geez man, do I have to keep repeating myself? I dont say things without reading them from a source first. I'm about ready to stop here.

bad30th, you always say that you are wrong when I show up and there is no use in continuing, and well no you aren't wrong you are entitlted to your opinion, but people will disagree with it if they so choose, as I am mine, you disagree with me quite often and I don't care. You just can't take it that someone might disagree with your knowledge.

Please grow up and try and have a normal discussion about this without making it personal as you do so often, it would be appreciated by all.

Why must you make snide comments about everything that I say? I simply stated my opinion on the car and on your thought that no one disagreed with Hal because he is the boss. Am I supposed to avoid all threads that you post in? Please let me know so I can continue posting in motors.

Thank You

J

Bwaaaaahahahahaha!!!!!!! Mee toooo!!!!!11!!1!

What I don't get is just exactly when and why did 4 door cars become cool?

They get cool when you get friends :) *rimshot*

Well, its apparant that I am wrong because you read so. You go right on reading all your car knowledge....I'll go actually do it.

I'm tired of you picking out the one thing from my posts that you deem incorrect and replying to that, while not even touching to rest.

I'm about done also.

Post whatever you want jay.

I concede....the TL is....

The Pinnacle of Automotive Perfection!

What about the new Chrysler 300C? I've bought one recently and it is an amazing vehicle. Just some input to ponder over.

I've never driven a 300C. How do you think it compares to other vehicles that have been mentioned? (Acura TL, BMW 3-series, Infiniti G35, Volvo s60, etc...)

Well the new 300C has got a hemi, first of all. Huge power. Chrysler has come out with Multi-Displacement System that turns off four of the 8 cylinders seamlessly to improve mpg. You can't even tell when it does this either. The interior is great and the tortoise shell accents are a great touch. Top quality leather. Exterior styling is what catches your eyes. It is a very unique vehicle and it is up to par with nearly all luxury vehicles under 55k. Performance wise, it is pretty close to the Infiniti G35 but more power. I have kind of skipped around a bit and left some other information out but oh well.

I'm not crazy about the exterior styling myself. I find it a bit boxy.

Nice thread fellas. I thought about a TL, as well as that new 300C and the S60 2.5T AWD Volvo. I need a AWD car of an SUV. I like the audi's S4's as well ;)

So undecided!

Anyone, to stick with the topic, the TL is very impressive this year.. It has come along way.

The 300C is a nice car that I wouldn't buy. It looks a little too much like a Bentley copy(and a rather cheap one). I am so sick of the Hemi, what are they going to put it in next, or is there anything they haven't put one in.

You keep right on living that race car driver lifestyle bad30th, you are the man because of it.(or so you think)

Wasn't it you who was just telling me how much you have read about cars and racing? I guess you doing it and me doing it are two different things.

I never picked one thing from your post I was commenting on the topic and also on a car that was mentioned by numerous people the Camaro.

Seems to me anyways you just don't like people disagreeing with you, just my opinion though.

I'm done with this little side trip with you, now back to the topic at hand, sorry for the off topic comments I have made, they will be the last.

I just raced a TL this weekend with 3 people in my SRT-4 and roasted him. He was heard saying leter that his car had leather seats though... lol Does it say Honda on the engine?

Chris

We'll have to wait and see how long the SRT-4, (who am I kidding it's a neon) will hold together.

I've read, and heard from people who have driven them that fit and finish aren't exactly strong points.

Not really surprising, though they do look rather cheap.

Thats their whole point though. Power on the cheap. You dont get a 20k car with that power and think they aren't going to cut any corners in manufacturing it.

I think they all look cool. I really like the TL.

I couldnt help post this when I saw it. Im sure you all know who it implys too.http://home.comcast.net/~qveonmail/e-thug.jpg

matteo101 are srtforums?

Chris

say what? If that meant did i get it on an srtforum, than no, no i did not. If not than i dont know what you are gettin at.

The TL's are awsome. THere's something about the "stripe" down the side of the car... mmm...

From head on the TL looks awesome. I don't like the profile. The fender flares, the roof line, the stripe, none of those elements blend well with the aggressive angular look of the fronend. It just seems like they put a lot of good design elements together without working hard enough to make them coherent.

The interior is a 9/10. I hope other companies are taking notes. I'm not too sure about some of the included gadgets like bluetooth. I know what bluetooth is but what is its purpose in the TL?

I also think the engine/manual transmission is great 9/10. I think the TL has one of the best V6's ever built. I'd like to drive the 350Z and a TL back to back to evaluate but I think it's close. Ward has giving nissan one it's ten best engine awards every year since 1994 when the VQ(the engine in the 350Z and G35) was introduced. They've even called the VQ the best V6 ever made. I think it's going to be a tough call this year.