What are those wacko's in Cali thinking now...
 

It just came to my attention that the State of California is about to grant the PRIVILEGE of driving to Mexican illegals. Is this a desperate ploy for Davis to get the Latino vote on his side (Let it be noted he has previously voted down the same bill twice)? Does this bother anyone else? The fact that they are granting American Privileges to non-citizens who are uninsured and not liable? Does it bother the fact that this could lead to massive voter fraud, or is it all in my head???

Or maybe you realize they probably can't vote anyways.

Yeah great way to provide constructive arguments/debates when you start it off with "them wacko's"

When you file work for your License I.D. the DMV person automatically hands whomever a voter registration card, what is to stop them from filing it out. They are not on record so there is no way to check it, and no I.D. is required to file.

Voting aside...

Whats the point? These people are here illegally. They should be deported before they're given drivers licenses.

Maybe you should spend more time concerning yourself with the politics of your state, rather than regurgitating right-ring rhetoric you got off talk radio here.

So what? All i see is a racist comment considering them hardly liable and what not.

Theres many potential people out there (just like potential idiots) that can't get here yet want to.

Its easy to stomp on certain groups that are seen at the bottom of society, but thats been how it has always been. Italians, Mexicans, African Americans, whatever ethnic group.

PS considering you hardly gave a link to this all and it is nowhere heard on the news (it would be a big issue probably) it really doesn't matter.

And how in the world would you garner more latino votes from citizens when many of them would prefer keeping illegals out who are taking their jobs?:lol:

err...no...

they dont just hand out voter registration cards at the DMV.

they need to have some kinda of record of you as a citizen in the database to get a voter registration card.

my parents are not US citizens and they've never been handed a voter registration card.

This is such an illogical statement. First off, the person is AT THE DMV, FILLING OUT A LICENSE TO DRIVE AS AN ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT.

The whole idea that they can somehow sneakily register to vote is just insane.

As Nizzle said, less Rush Limbaugh and more worrying about the politics of your own state would be a good thing.

Actually one major issue that is being presented is the fact that illegals will now have the ability to purchase long guns. Background checks are only in place for hand gun purchases, not shotguns and rifles.

This is one seriously flawed bill. You will essentially be able to create an identity.

So now Joe Terrorist can, once he circumvents our stellar border patrol, obtain a federally recognized identifcation card. This will allow him to board comercial plane flights and purchase weapons legally.

Doesn't this just make you feel safe.

This bill only appears to benefit hispanics aliens, in reality most of them don't have the ability to pass the written test. Not to mention the unwillingness to identify themselves to authoritative body.

It seems to me the bill would be unconstitutional since it seems to circumvent Federal control over the immigration issue. The example of being able to board a plane helps to demonstrate how this bill would allow a state to complicate matters on a national level.

You may want to spend time doing further research on this.

The ID/drivers license will not identify the person as an illegal or a citizen. In order to register to vote, all you need is an ID number and to say you are citizen and old enough to vote at time of the next election. They ask for no proof whatsoever.

This is a fact. I just updated my registration 2 weeks ago. I did this online and there was nothing to prevent me from lying. I filled out the form online and a print out was mailed to me for my signature. Once signed, you put it back in the mail and voila... you're a registered voter. Correct me if I am wrong, but all you need at a polling location is a state id card.

This is not a case of being paranoid, it's justifiable concern.

http://www.kxtv.com/storyfull.asp?id=5222

That should clue people in, from a local station in Sacramento.

https://ovr.ss.ca.gov/votereg/OnlineVoterReg

CA DRIVER'S LICENSE OR CA ID CARD NUMBER:When you register to vote you must provide your California driver's license or California identification number, if you have one. If you do not have a driver's license or ID card, you must provide the last four digits of your Social Security Number (SSN). If you do not include this information you will be required to provide identification when you vote.

Interesting, your link didn't provide one sentence in support of your argument that this would lead to massive voter fraud. In fact, it states this:

The previous bills Davis vetoed were not the "same" bill, either.

Can these people read or not (or did you mean they couldn't pass the written for some other reason, Shagg?). If not, why or how could they vote?

Regardless, there isn't anything stopping motivated people to vote illegally (lol, as if I need mention that depriving people living and working within the state is anything but anti-representative government--exactly what our founders shed their blood for.).

You can walk into any DMV right now and request a license, take a test, and fill out a voting form. You can't, however, just walk into a polling place to vote. Your information is verified before it's placed on a list. Felons on parole have driver's licenses--they can't vote until they are off parole but we aren't up in arms about how much fraud they are committing. We aren't because we know that their names won't be valid when they're checked and we also know (assuming you actually read the form you signed) that any misinformation you place on the form is a felony.

Ah, but the people are here illegally you may exclaim, they don't care about felonies. Well then, you should mention to the non-Californians here that your voter form is sent to your house and that you need two pieces of proof of residence before you can have a licencse.

If they lie on the form and actually try to vote they have to give their real address. The enforcement agencies can then drive around town and swoop everyone up. So either a) they aren't going to fill out the form and put their names on the radar or b) they put their names on the radar, their name comes back from the registry as a non-citizen, and enforcement agents go to their house and send them to prison for five years before deporting them.

My goodness, the horror, people actually voting where their tax money will be spent. I mean, we all saw this part of the bill, right:

Nizzle,

The Dixie Chicks are free to have their opinion about Bush, the French are free to have their opinion about the USA and, so long as he doesn't break the general board rules, Mojo_PeiPei is free to post his opinion about California Government policies on TFP.

He did ask what us "wackos" were thinking, Lebell. (Thanks mod for covering both sides of the page ;) )

Well, the handful of us answering this post think he should stay out of our state's affairs.

You're free to have that opinion too :)

Thats cool it's your state's beef. My problem is that if the whole country adopts your states ultra-liberal agendas, this being one of many.

I guess that would only happen if the ELECTED OFFICIALS in the OTHER STATES VOTED to pass legislation too.

First off, literacy is not a requirement to vote, all you need to do is recognize names and propositions and mark the appropriate box. A monkey has the ability to recognize symbols and respond to stimulus, yet they are a far cry from being literate. Literacy does not equal intelligence nor understanding. Passing the DMV test requires literacy and comprehension skills. I don't think its a far stretch to say that most people don't ace the written portion of the test. And you can't pass the test based on experience alone, you must read the manual or have some actual training because they do throw in questions about specific laws and procedures.

That database you refer to, only includes people who have some sort of record. An illegal who has never had an encounter with law enforcement will not generate a flag in the system. The database includes anybody with a criminal record and anybody who has been previously deported.

You need 1 proof of address to get your id/dl and that proof is verified when the card is mailed to you. You need 2 forms of identification which are explained in section 12801.2 of the bill. http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/bill/s...ended_asm.html

You seem to be confusing residency with citizenship. They verify your residency when you register to vote, they don't verify your citizenship. Up until now, only citizens had state id/dl's. This bill has made no provision for possible voter fraud. The DMV does not keep a record of your citizenship and no provisions have been put in place to insure otherwise.

Now you seem to think anyone paying taxes has a right to vote, I'm sorry but it doesn't work that way. Even legal resident aliens don't have a right to vote. Illegal aliens do not pay social security, state or federal income tax.

I don't think that people paying taxes have the legal right to vote--that's absurd, isn't it?

I stated that our nation's founders fought and died for the belief that taxation without representation was a worth a revolution. Given that historic event and the amount of immigrants we have in our state, we might want to reconsider our official policy before the original dwellers of our awesome region get angry enough to try and reclaim it. Or we can let them join in our prosperity--we sure have profitted from their labor, I don't see anyone denying that.

I'm not going to argue with you over whether our voting agency checks citizenship when it verifies voter elligibility. It simply isn't relevant because if even if you are correct then the solution is to check people's citizenship status while they run their background checks--not use it as an argument to deny a license.

Exactly what do you think is stopping people from falsely registering or obtaining picture ID right now? When was the last time you had to verify your citizenship? I suspect it was the last time you obtained a new job. I didn't have to do it to get my license, I didn't have to do it for school, and I don't have to do it every time I go across the border. I'm surprised that you think someone can't walk into the DMV right now and lie to obtain his or her licensce or registerr to vote.

Have you noticed that our registration forms have a box that asks if you are a legal citizen? I'm picturing a scene where the votes in California actually exceeded its legal population...that would be funny, actually. What would happen? Would the minimum wage finally increase even though these immigrants earn less than the minimum wage regardless? Would they ensure they received emergency medical services and education--wait, they don't need to, our courts decided that. Would the state finally slide into the Pacific if an assorted number of immigrants (who have no respect for the rule of law or democracy, according to some pundits) got it into their heads to break a law they viewed as unjust and vote anyway (careful here, we could be on to something--civil disobedience in the most revered form: women's suffrage, civil rights, the FIGHT FOR A RIGHT TO VOTE!.

I can't believe I'm even arguing this with you. Both political parties argue for the sanctity of the right to vote. You can't even argue that such rights only extend to recognized citizens of the country--our Republican led congress and President just steamrolled two countries to install and perpetuate democracy--the right to vote to people unrecognized as citizens by their respective official governments. The rest of the world already knows we're hypocritical. Now its up to the 6th largest economy to disprove that notion. I'm not ashamed to admit that our agenda will spill over onto the rest of the nation. Those people are rightfully scared. It takes a lot to work 34 million people into a political frenzy--we are truly like a big, fuzzy, brown bear. We slumber so peacefully in the winter but my god don't poke us with a stick, especially during the summer, or we'll do some crazy shit and rip whoever is poking us a new asshole.

I don't know if you are a republican or not, but your analysis of this certainly mirrors their rhetoric. So I might as well warn you that republicans have been poking the silent majority here with a pointy stick for some time now...

I'd like to cast a vote in the "deport all illegal immigrants and give them information on how to immigrate legally" column.

Good, now you can vote to raise taxes to pay for the increased border enforcement. After that, you can send us a couple of your children so we can put them to work in our fields or to landscape our golf courses for a few bucks per day.

Them thar preppy californee kids that I see on "The OC" need ta gets demselves a hardwerkin job anyways!

;)

On a more serious note, 49 other states seem to do fine without legalizing illegal immigrants. Also, unemployment is on the rise, Americans need those jobs.

Believe me when I say I agree--I didn't grow up in the heart of conservative California and I would love nothing more than to see the affluent around here bust their asses and try to live on their measly paycheck and exclaim that everyone is in his or her socioeconomic position as a result of one's intiative and hardwork (or lack thereof).

Here's an article that really elucidates the disparity between the labor side of the state and the OC types: http://alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16703

The simple fact of the matter is that 46 of those states aren't directly connected to Mexico and the people we're discussing have been working here for years--most of them for decades. AFAIK, there isn't anything other than their own choices barring residents from working under the table for pennies on the dollar.

If you believe in a free market economy you have to allow labor the freedom to move with the capital. The freedom of labor to follow capital is an essential component of liberalized trade. We've already implemented agreements that lifted barriers to capital movement--now we have to allow labor to move freely or we upset the balance of a market economy which will artificially fluctuate the demand and supply. Frankly, I'm surprised that someone like yourself would now promote government intervention in the market economy.

Here's the deal, as I see it.

Illegal immigrants are - for better or for worse - the backbone of the California economy. They do the most physical labor, for the least pay, for the longest hours, without complaining because however bad they have it here, it's paradise compared to where they came from before. We have the fifth-largest economy in the world. Not the country, the world.. Migrant labor is the simplest reason for that. The plain fact is that many, if not most, of these illegal immigrants are *already on the road today* - driving without licenses. Granting them the right to hold a license will let the state collect licensing fees and vehicle fees and traffic violation fees to boost revenue (always a good thing) and allow the illegal immigrants to continue doing what they do already without breaking the law in the process.

You don't live in CA, Mojo, so I don't expect you to understand. We live differently out here. We kinda understand that the U.S. is a nation of immigrants; I'd bet we understand it better than most states do. We don't look at illegals as the problem. We look at them as part of what makes California work so well. You may disagree, but that's fine - just don't move to California. I like it here, and I applaud the Governor for signing this bill.

Problem is, very few Americans will go pick vegetables. Without illegal immigrants picking your food, what would you eat?

This could be the biggest crock of shit I've ever heard. I understand that the United States is a nation of immigrants, if you follow the protocol. Jumping over a fence doesn't make them LEGAL immigrants or welcome here. Further more if you think Gray Davis is doing this out of the goodness and compassion of his heart you are a sap. Also it does effect me Because Border Patrol, THe locking up and deporting of the illegals (locking up in federal prisons), the DEA attempting to stop the drug flow brought with the immigrants, are all federally funded. Furthermore I live in a farm town up in Minnesota with a high Mexican population, if you think they are "legal" because they live up here you are sorely mistaken. There has been many cases where they are driving illegally and they get in accidents, they escape from the hospital in the middle of the night because they have no insurance.

I still dont get what the fuss is all about.

I went to community college for the past summer and i had to FIGHT to get in-state tuition there (I'm a legal immigrant, not a citizen) (On the other hand, UT readily gave me in-state tuition because of residency and the fact that I've attended a TX high school for the past 4 years).

What surprised me was the fact the counselor at the local communitcy college said that people here ILLEGALY would qualify for in-state tuition readily at the CC, but I wouldnt since I'm in transition stage.

So, TX pays for illegal immigrants to go to college (college, not universities).

Also, I know people here illegaly that own cars and drive 'em. I dont think INS (or whatever it's called now) is involved in any way with the DMV.

I agree Lebell, but my statement still stands. This is a California issue. While he's welcome to state his opinion, it's clearly without merit.

It's no coincidence that the contributors to this thread that have "CA" in their location are at odds with everyone else.

This is a state affair without a national precedent. The argument about potential voter fraud is empty rhetoric.

I also do not appreciate the opening line "those wackos." I thought this board was meant to remain civil? I did not say something like, "you inbred southerners," did I?

Ok, to back it up a bit, I was supporting someone elses comment about the DMV and voter registration. I was then called upon to offer proof to back up my statements and I did. I cited both the voter registration form and the bill in question, further I cited a specific section of the bill. This is not rhetoric, it is fact.

For it to be said that it is already possible, is just justifying someones ability to break the law. That is rhetoric. You argument in this regard is just saying who cares if we make it easier. You cite "taxation without representation," sorry that's not the issue. I started working when I was 14, I payed taxes for almost 5 years before the first election was held that I was able to vote in. A citizen doesn't have the right to vote until they are 18 because they essentially don't have the ability to objectively look at the issues or the language skills to comprehend the issues. If they want to work in this country so much, they should make the effort to become citizens. They can still get payed under the table for all I care, but going through the naturalization process will give them a better respect for the country. If they are just here to make their money and then head back across the border, then they shouldn't be here under any circumstance.

My original argument against this bill had to do with giving illegals, the ability to purchase firearms legally. This is causing concern with both the ATF and the Mexican government. In Mexico, long guns are regulated and it is very difficult to purchase high-powered rifles. This bill will give smugglers the ability to purchase large amounts of firearms legally and transport them into Mexico.

After all the effort spent on identifying terrorists, this bill is a giant step backwards. There are plenty of terrorists, criminals and assorted trouble makers that have never had contact with law enforcement. This bill will make it very easy for them to work in the open. A state issued drivers license is sufficient identification to buy firearms, board airplanes and in some areas purchase explosives. This is what worries me.

Also, who cares if the rest of the country considers up wacko's. By everybody elses standards we are, and have been for a long time. Much of what California does is the grounds for national precedent so their concern is justified. You sound like you were one of those that took offense to the teacher who used the term "niggardly."

And despite what you may think, this bill will affect the nation as a whole. State ID's are federally recognized forms of identification. So there are nationwide ramifications.

Shagg just totally owned this thread.

Right Mojo and you defenitely didn't.

Just stop posting without merit on issues you obviously adamantly hate.

If you consider liberals evil creatures of the world, then you are a no better person.

The first thing to do if you want to create a dicussion is to not alienate a party or instigate an argument. Then you won't get anything good and it only makes you look worse.

Nah, it's more fun getting you guys riled.

Confirms my point.

Just ignore Mojo anyways, he's just really trolling

I am not offended by what a bunch of right-wing, ignorant Christianazis think about California.

People pay a lot of money to live here for a reason. I'm sorry you live in podunk nowhere and don't know any better.

There, is that more in the spirit of this thread? :)

I'm the ignorant one? That's cute...

P.S. I live in the Twin Cities, which has a population of about 2.5 million people, not exactly podunk, besides I would rather live in Podunk nowhere over Quasi-Liberal Cali that is an ass backwards region.

You live in Minnesota and you're bashing Cali for being too liberal? Buwahaha! Seriously man, you ought to be in stand-up.

(former Minnesotan)

P.S. Mojo -

If you're so upright and religious, what the hell are you doing hanging out with a bunch of liberal godless pervs like us, looking at titties?

Lemme guess - Missouri Synod Lutheran?

Lurkette Minnesota maybe "more" Liberal, but are you actually putting it in the same league as Cali!?!?! Also when I say liberal Cali I tend to generalize and throw it in with the 9th circuit (just realized that could be the key issue here).

Also I don't pretend to be all religious and righteous. To tell you the truth I am a piss poor catholic. What gets me going is when people knock the church. Its like family, your allowed to call your own family a bunch of idiots, but when an outsider starts doing it you get pissed. Besides I like getting into it with you Godless liberals, you make my days that much more interesting and bring me perspectives I would never get otherwise.

Uhh..

<_<

>_>

Back on topic, smooth, California residents shouldn't be paying anymore in taxes to curb immigration problems than any other American. It is a national issue, NOT just a state issue, and so should be paid for by the federal government through the INS. State-subsidized border patrol units are most likely getting kick-backs from the feds, and/or should in this case.

The gun-trafficking hypothetical aside, giving illegals priveledges that not even all Americans have is a slap in the face to legal immigrants. Deport illegals and let them immigrate legally, as our fathers and grandfathers and great grandfathers did.

I think we really need to examine and address the reasons underlying the flood of Mexican immigrants before we can espouse a blanket deportation policy under the "rule of law." We don't have, for example, a flood of Canadians pouring into the northern states.

Part of my dissertation focuses on the use of law by a dominant social group to maintain social inequality--or, if you prefer, to secure the political and economic (limited resources) benefits for itself. I don't believe that to be a correct application of the law and it ultimately undermines our rational-legal social structure. I brought some of that out when I made the claim that our immigration policies run counter to the two claims that we live and operate within a free market economy and a representative government.

Such internal contradictions are what Marx argued would be the downfall of capitalism because the workers would eventually recognize their exploitation due to logical inconsistencies. You don't have to agree with Marx to see that it behooves us to examine whether laborers do believe this is occurring and what the ramifications of such beliefs, if held, could be.

Same stuff that I eat now, and that I ate BEFORE the mass illegal immigration from Mexico that really took off 10 or 15 years ago. Food must have magically teleported from farms to supermarkets back then, since it's so obvious no Americans would ever have anything to do with picking vegetables. :rolleyes:

Agreed. In a true free market capitalist scenario, people should be able to immigrate freely. Problem is, we aren't fortunate enough to have that here in America-- it's a combination of capitalism and socialism. Immigrants come here because they can get "free" money, health care, education, and so on--paid for with money stolen from American taxpayers.

The ideal situation would be to ditch all the social programs and open the borders. People who want to come here to work and succeed on their own merits are more than welcome to do so. They are highly desirable. But the idiot freeloaders who just want to get something for nothing will no longer have any incentive to do so because we wouldn't have a nanny state government protecting them at the expense of productive people.

I don't doubt that you would cheerily pick vegetables all day in the sun, I just doubt you would do it for pennies on the dollar. Even if you wanted to, you couldn't because we have labor laws that protect citizens.

The Republican party is surprising in its brazen attitude towards immigration. Corporations are fully supportive of lax borders and illegal labor--they benefit enormously. They manage to whip their constituents up over the people taking their jobs while employing those people nonetheless. Then people vote against progressives who consistently argue that if people are here and supplementing our luxurious lifestyles we ought to give them priviledges and meet their basic needs, such as, education and emergency medical services.

If you want to curb illegal people working here go after your party's big corporations that hire them and/or exploit them in their own countries. Crimp the cause instead of trying to eradicate the effect.

I heard Bustamante quote the latest research which indicates that illegal immigrants pay more into the tax base than they use. This is an interesting twist on an old rationale. Usually its poor, black 'breeders' that are accused of leeching the system. I posit that lazy immigrants and ethnic minorities is a cultural myth. While conceding that you will find a few examples of abuse such cases are not the dominant drain on our public money.

M.P.P.,

You're a troll who is busy selling bushwa.

Please take your efforts to create a flame fest to a more appropriate venue.

2Wolves

I just read this article and I think it's remarkably relevant to this thread. Sorry it's a bit long, but I really think it's worth posting:

http://www.motherjones.com/commentar...we_540_01.html

pssst, Macheath, now I know you didn't read the link I posted ;)

True, but I stand by posting the whole content of the article. It needed to be emphasised.

A troll is someone who scowers the board looking to get into shit that has already started , that is more you. I am the guy that starts the shit.

And if the comments cannot be kept on course and off each other, this thread will be locked.

It's BS man, they shouldn't be here in the first place, they aren't insured, wtf are we giving them DL's for? Just imagine any of you Cali guys, some dude runs a red and rails your brand new $30k car in his beater. Wtf are you going to do? Sure you have uninsured motorist coverage, but that fawker just screwed up 2 weeks of your life waiting for you to get YOUR car back and your car will not ever be the same after an accident no matter how good the body work is. There will ALWAYS be problems down the road. So basically you have the choice of taking a sub par vehicle back or eating the loss of trading up just because some fawker that shouldn't even be in the country, let alone driving, couldn't see a red light. Fawk em. I've heard so many stories that the cops show up, say sorry, nothing we can do, and let the illegal go. Sucks man, glad I don't live in Cali/Arizona where there are peope actually fighting against the border patrol policies that are trying to keep these people out. Sad to see how left wing politicians now are all too happy to give up our rights for the power they get by snagging a new position.

TRUE, but... there are exceptions. What is wasting the tax money is imprisioning the people that A) should not be here, and B) do not pay taxes. At least if we imprision somebody who's paid taxes all their lives, its a little less of a hit, but imprisioning someone to the tune of $30k a year or whatever it costs now who was never supposed to be here in the first place is a gigantic drain. And statistics DO show that a greater number of impoverished people are jailed, so I think its a fair assumption that illegal immigrants, who have very little in the terms of funding, would contribute to a large percentage of this.

I could just imagine the California citizens picking the grapes here. They'd work for about 10 minutes, take a 45 minute ergonomic break, then strike because they weren't making 6 figures. The backbone of our economy would collapse in less than a week without a cheap labor force.

Lyaec123: And you know why the impoverished get jailed? Because they are treated like shit by people who say "fuck em we don't need em." Saying fuck em only creates more problems, and keeps em down, and thus they will go to desperate lengths.

hey if everyone had a job and lived at the standard of living, no one would have this shit other than the lunatics.

its too bad everyone loves to take the hard-line against them - considering they basically form the base of the economy

and they have the privilge to drive or get an ID if they live here and work here - the entire car thing is bullshit

you know how many citizens get into accidents? most immigrants can't even afford cars nor do they communte daily in cars and its wrong to assume they are automatically shitty drivers

guess what, many a rich citizen can be just as bad

its just that those who can pay it off don't get on the news

its too bad people still have nativist views - too many people don't learn their history

ever wonder where your forefathers came from and what htey did? i betcha many of us here have forefathers that came here penniless and had to work in the shittiest of conditions (12 hours a day, 7 days a week, for less than $10) - tsk tsk too bad

Nice attempt to legitimize exploitation of foreign workers. What would really happen, is that a bunch of people paid minimum wage would do it, and we would just pay three times as much for grapes.

Only someone from Minnesota (and not California, such as myself) would fail to catch the sarcasm in my previous statement.

hehe

its funny because i was just shopping and people were like "omg this is hard work need a rest" - whoa whoa whoa lol

Just so everyone can get some perspective, the same issue is being considered in Arizona, and the last time I checked, AZ was not what one would call a liberal bastion. The home of Barry Goldwater, Justices Renquist and O'Connor and John McCain is also a border state that has to deal with the reality of illegal immigration. In AZ the concept is that a significant number of accidents involve illegals and the hope is that if they learn our rules of the road, it will decrease accidents. I can't say I am convinced, but it really is not just a "liberal California" issue.

This is an interesting read on the issue http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/...all/index.html

This just goes to prove my point that the only reason this bill is up in Cali again is so Davis can save his ass in regards to Prop. 54. Does anyone else get the feeling he is trying to cater to the latino vote, I mean honestly he has already voted the same bill down twice (bill's were almost the same only they had something about bio-identification in them I believe).

Politics as usual...