Israel Finally got him....
 

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/...sin/index.html

All I have to say is about fucking time. This guy was a goon. This is a testament to the war on terror. This guy and his organization were about one thing only death and destruction. He would "broker peace deals" long enough so that his terrorist organization could come up with funds and materials, then in a heart beat turn back on his word. Goes to show that people like him can't be dealt with in a reasonable way. Granted Israel probably pissed off a lot of people doing this, whose to say if it will make the situation better.

And killing him and a bunch of others through assassination is.... what? Yassin was an Israeli citizen and a quadrapeligic. Shooting him with missiles was the only way to deal with him? Israel must have some pretty sad cops and armed forces if that is the case.

I don't know much about Yassin's history. Source? URL? Background?

Israel hitting him with missiles goes to show that he can't be dealt with in a reasonable way???? I'm missing the connection.

I'm just glad the terrorism in Israel will end now that he is dead.

Re: Israel Finally got him....
 

No offense, but you are pretty blind if you don't see that Isreal equally shares blame with palastine. Both groups are being asses and this killing is just going to continue the process. This murder is far from something to be commended.

Edit: Btw I'm putting 1:3 odds on an isreali cabnet member dying this week.

So killing someone without a trial and bragging over the deed is different than the other side how?

Did this guy probably deserve to die? .... yeah

Will a helluva lot more Israeli citizens die becuse of this? ....yeah

It will never end.

Yeah, they might have been right to kill him, and the guy before him, and the other guy before him, and the guy even further back in time, and so on...

I think I missed the trial......guess it wasnt televised.

Wish they'd been a bit more subtle that this, but, really, 'bout frickin' time. If he was a terrorist, then he was regrettably killed during apprehension, but, if he was a freedom fighter in an assymentrical war, then he was the bloody generalissimo, and I don't understand why it took Israel this long to remove him from the board, and why they used their army rather than the vaunted Mossad to do it.

Sad to say, that the only way there will be peace in that area is when there is no one around to fight anymore.

This really sheds a "poor" light on the whole conflict.
He was killed for what he promotes, not in action just in thought and statement.
Hmmm, how many other figures in the world could be killed for this exact reason??
A WHOLE FRICKIN' LOT OF PEOPLE!!!!

This Middle East mess is becoming more & more disgusting by the death.

Re: Re: Israel Finally got him....
 

I agree with you. All I'm saying is that this guy was was marked for justifyed reasons. Also killing him probably doesn't help much seeing as to Hamas is more popular then Arafat or his Fatah. It still is a solid move I think. Obviously knocking off all the small fries wasn't working to well. If your trying to kill something why stab it a few times, when you cut its head off?

If christianity has taught us anything it is that killing the leader can make a movement a million times stronger. Maybe palestine can respond in kind by assassinating some obstructionists in the israeli goverment. Eye for an eye.

What do you mean "not in action"? This guy was the founder of Hamas and it's leader. He's often referred to as the "spiritual leader" because he focuses on the religious duty of Palestinians to kill as many Jews as possible.

Next we're gonna hear about how wrong it is to kill someone in a wheelchair.

Supposedly he was in wheelchair from a very young age.
Just to be clear..he was a spiritual leader.
Palestinians (if it is true) are not the only people who want to exterminate people on the other side.

The Fox News web site has a poll up -

The leader of Hamas was killed Monday in an Israeli missile strike. Which best describes your opinion?

-This is good and will help end violence in long run.
-This is bad and will lead to more bloodshed in Israel.
-This is bad and could lead to more bloodshed beyond borders of Israel.
-The U.S. should get more involved as the situation is deteriorating.
-None of the above

They should've included:
-This is a good thing but it may lead to an all out war.

I want to give Palestinians the benefit of the doubt, but after hundreds of civilian Israeli deaths from kids strapped with bombs, I feel like some retribution is justified. Arafat then gets on the T.V. and says that the attack "crossed all the red lines". When a jackoff sells his kid as a suicide bomber to kill people just living their lives exactly which color line does that cross?

(edited for grammar)

I've said it before and i'll say it again there will never be peace in the middle east....ever.....period

I fully support the killing of this monster. However, I fear for the resulting slaughter of Jews. OTOH, there would have been a slaughter of Jews anyway, just spaced out more evenly over the months and years.

As for the claims that this is unlawful: if Yassin would have been arrested, put on trial and then executed, the end result would have been exactly the same. How much evidence do you need to assume that someone is guilty? Everyone knew that this guy was one of the founders of Hamas, a terror group whose sole aim seems to be to kill as many Jews as possible. Everyone knew that this guy was personally spreading hatred amongst the Palestinians. And everyone knew he was personally responsible for each and every Israeli that Hamas killed. Just because a judge didn't order his death does not mean it's unjustified...

For the record he was already arrested and sentenced to life in prison.

Sure yassin was a bad guy and AFTER a trial he may have been executed, but what really gets me is he was just assassinated using missiles without any tye of trial. Israel can no longer claim the higher ground and try to paint their actions as part of the war on terror. They have stooped to the level of the terrorists and two terrorist organizations will never make peace with each other.

Said it better than I ever could.

I don't think a trial was needed in this case. Not like it would've done any good anyways, it all would've been a conspiracy by the evil moussad and zionist agenda.

As I stated before he was already tried and convicted for murder, he was the founder of one of the worlds' premere terrorist organizations... needless to say he got released on a technicality.

So it is better to kill a personand brag and show excitement than to give a man his civil and humane rights.

Isreal made a martyr of this man and unfortunately more deaths will be the outcome.

Perhaps, just perhaps, if Isreal and the US gave these terrorists a trial and showed the world that we do in fact treat people fairly and not just kill them, the world would see who truly was righteous. BUT to kill just to kill and then to brag is just as evil and causes more hatred.

He was an animal, he had long since forsaken his humanity and washed it away with the blood of the thousands of deaths he is responsible for. And who is bragging? Israel certainly is not, they are just doing their job. This guy was a murderous asshat who had it coming, they executed their policy of dealing with people like him, the order came from the top. End of story.

I don't think it is right they just said, "Whoop there he is! Let's explode him," and missile fire ensued, that is not right, JRG is dead on with that, Israel is now officially in my mind engaged in a duel of whomping, not wits, not diplomacy, just bashing foreheads seemingly hoping to cause the hated enemy to pull a sad indian and write their equivellent of "I will Fight No More Forever"

Sounds like you know him personally.

I want to see what kind of animal replaces him.

Anyways, i thought assassination was something that terrorists do. Five other people were killed to get this guy. That's what timothy mcveigh called "collateral damage". I think that both sides should stop whining about dead innocents until both sides decide to kill no more innocents.

Yeah 5 other members of Hamas... big loss.

Were they proven guilty of murder as well? or were they just collateral?

this is something I wrote in another forum that covers this issue pretty well..............................
==============================================

I don't understand something. While not forgotten why is the Holocaust brought up to justify everything Isreal does? 6 Million died, yes but the governments responsible and the people responsible were tried and are no longer relevant in anyone sane's life let alone any government.
And by the by, there were a lot of CATHOLICS, HOMOSEXUALS, SCHOLARS, AND SO ON KILLED IN THE HOLOCAUST NOT JUST JEWS.

Isreal would be nothing if not for US and UK support, BILLIONS OF DOLLARS EVERY YEAR AND NOTHING IN RETURN EXCEPT HATRED FROM THE REST OF THE MIDDLE EAST, WHO BELIEVE WE ARE OUT TO CONQUER THE WORLD, AND HATRED FROM ISREAL, WHO BELIEVES WE NEED TO DO MORE. Yet, despite all our help, they keep killing instead of trying terrorists. The US and UK turn blind eyes and Isreal just makes the situation worse by creating martyrs.

Not trying to sound anti-semitic, because I'm truly not, but killing people and treating people as sub-citizens as they do to the Palestinians, is that not what Hitler's Germany and Holocaust did to the Jews? If they were truly a peaceful people and wanting peace, would Isreal not strive for it?

I'm sorry but as far as I'm concerned the US needs to pull out of the Middle East 100% AND THAT INCLUDES ISREAL and tend to ourselves. We need and want the oil, ok we make trade agreements but no more interfering in ANYONE'S POLITICS OVER THERE UNTIL THEY ALL START ACTING LIKE ADULTS AND NOT CHILDREN WITH DEADLY WEAPONS BEATING UP ON EACH OTHER.

It's like how some police officers describe answering most domestics. The man or woman can be beating the other to Hell, but as soon as the officer gets there they stop and turn the anger onto him/her. That's what we have in that region and it since it won't end, WE NEED TO JUST STOP SUPPORTING IT BY NOT SENDING ANY TAX DOLLARS THERE.

Have a feeling, within a year of no US/UK monies coming in the Isreali government will be making sure there is peace over there.
==============================================

I firmly believe taking away ALL AID AND MONEY and Isreal will truly show who they are. Friend or foe. Isreal will either strive for peace or turn on us.

I STRONGLY URGE EVERYONE TO READ JACK BERNSTEIN'S "AN AMERICAN JEW IN MARXIST-RACIST ISREAL". THE BEST READ OVER THIS SITUATION I HAVE EVER READ.

HERE'S A LINK: http://christianparty.net/sephardic.htm

BERNSTEIN WAS KILLED BY THE ISREALI MOSSAD AFTER THIS WAS WRITTEN AND I HAVE NOT FOUND ONE PERSON FROM ISREAL OR PRO-ISREALI WHO EVER DEBATED THIS. THEY JUST THROW OUT WORDS LIKE LIARS AND ANTI-SEMITE AND SO ON.

If someone here knows of a true rebuttal or has one, that is FACT BASED I am open to reading it and perhaps changing my opinion. But, I fear that will not come to light. I'll be attacked as flaming an argument, and pictured as an anti-semite spreading hateful anti semitic and anti-Isreali propaganda among other untruthful things AND/OR I and the challenge to show the truth will be ignored, either way it adds credence to the arguments made on my side.

IMHO, the Israelis just poured gasoline on the fire.

As pointed out, they made a martyr out of this guy.

Yes, he's a murdering scumbag, I agree.

But so is Sharon. He's a fat murdering scumbag too. One is as bad as the other.

It will never end.

Guilt by association.

this about sums it up

Oh please. Are you really going down the Jack Bernstein road? One guy writes a nothing book criticizing Israel, goes missing and the entire Left conspiracy addicts go around saying that he was murdered by the Mossad. Others are supposed to do the homework for you to provide proof that he wasn't killed by a super-secret double agent? Why don't you provide proof that he was?

And careful... if the Mossad goes after every Joe Shmoe that writes bad stuff about Israel I'd be careful if I were you. After Chomsky, Shahak, etc, you might be next.

:rolleyes:

edit: BTW, there will be peace. Not long ago, it was thought to be impossible that France and England would have peace or England & the US. Who knows, there might be a day when Palestine is viewed as Israel's greatest ally.

Your optimistic Popo, its tough to undo thousands of years of hate and conflict.

What point were you hoping to discuss here in this forum? Anything you want to talk about, or do you just want to shout your beliefs over and over and over again hoping you drown everyone else out?

What do you mean? I've been told by the Left that this is just a territorial, and not a religious or cultural dispute. ;)

I don't think I'm being optimistic about peace. There will be bumps in the road but I really believe that soon as Palestinian extremists (yes, just the Palestinian extremists) are stopped, peace will come quickly. Israeli extremists just don't matter as much as the Palestnian ones, Yigal Amir or no Yigal Amir.

How sociopathic murderers who have it coming get theirs?

Its tough when the whole Arab world is fanning the flames of hate. Not only does Israel have to deal with Hamas, Al Aqsa, and Hezbollah locally, as well as heavily disputed regions such as Gaza, the West Bank, and the Golan Heights. Regionally You still have a very uneasy "peace" (if you can call it that) between Jordan/Syria/Lebanon, and hardline countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia stirring shit up. As said before, anything short of all out war will not help much.

Maybe. But I think that once the Pal situation is dealt with, the world (EU really) will have no way of walking the fence when it comes to anti-Israel terrorism. There will be no excuse. Of course, there was none before 1967 either but we'll ignore that for now.

Anyone know the odds on a nuclear bomb going off in Isreal in the next 10 years?

=/

"I do not know with which weapons WWIII will be fought with, but WWIV will be fought with sticks and stones."

I share the belief that it isn't religious or cultural. This dispute doesn't seem to be due to thousands of years of differences, it appears to only be about 60 years old.

Historically, Muslims have provided solace and sanctuary for Jews. In every region large Muslims exist, Jews have communities. They allowed Jews to immigrate during the Crusades and WW2. I don't know what else might be seperating the two cultures.

For one, while Israel claims to be some form of democracy, the people of Palestine aren't opposed to democracy. In fact, they claim to want a representative democracy. If anything, the rulers of the various nation-states are opposed to democracy--but we support them with military and monetary aid. But the people aren't opposed to democracy, so I can't see that being a reason to attack Isrealites.

Britain fucked up after the fall of the Ottoman Empire. The U.N. later fucked up and partitioned the land. The Arabs fucked up and attacked Israel 4 times in 50 years , losing every time. The Palestinians fucked up and listened to the Arab when they were asked to leave while the Arabs were going to eradicate the Jews. In the long run the Outside Arab states are ultimately responsible for the state of things, leaving the Palestinians dicked.

I'm starting to believe that the Israelis and Palestinians deserve each other.

Mojo

The British also forgot to create a Kurdish homeland. This has been causing strife in Turkey, Iran and Iraq ever since.

Indeed leaving 25 million people, the largest ethnic group without a homeland in the world. I would hope the US would get smart and partition Iraq, lord knows at least the Kurds deserve it. Plus I really don't trust Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, he seems to be putting some hardcore shit into motion.

I see my post was attacked. Any proof to prove me wrong? No, and I simply stated that Isreal (NOT ALL JEWS) throw the Holocaust in everyone's face irregardless of the facts that OTHERS DIED ALSO, THE GOVERNMENT THAT DID IT IS NO LONGER IN EXISTENCE AND THE US HAS PAID FOR ISREAL TO EXIST.

Meanwhile, Isreal treats the Palestines much the same as the Nazis treated the Jews. AS HALF CITIZENS WITH NO RIGHTS! I pulled up a JEWISH AUTHOR WHO WROTE A BOOK THAT OBVIOUSLY TICKED OF SOME ISREALI AS THE MOSSAD KILLED THE MAN, to prove that ISREAL is just as guilty at hatemongering as any other Middle Eastern country or NAZI for that matter.

You want to debate fine, I DO HAVE AN OPEN MIND SHOW ME FACTS THAT DISPROVE WHAT JACK BERNSTEIN WROTE. You want to resort to childish name calling and more hate mongering it ain't happening with me. Simply tell me how Isreal is not treating the Palestines like the Nazis treated people in Germany, show me how Isreal wants peace and their plan at getting it.

Show me how Bernstein is wrong with his writings.

Tell me how websites like these are anti semitic and full of crap:

1.. Jews NOT Zionists \topurl{http://www.jewsnotzionists.org}

2.. Not in My Name: www.nimn.org

3.. Jewish Peace Fellowship
\topurl{http://www.jewishpeacefellowship.org/index.htm}

4.. Neturei Karta Homepage
\topurl{http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Bunker/5750/home.html}

5.. Yesh Gvul, The movement for IDF men refusing to
serve in the Occupied Territories. \topurl{http://www.diak.org/Haayesh-}


6.. Israeli Committee Against Home Demolitions
\topurl{http://www.salam.org/activism/home_demolitions.html}

7.. Bat Shalom, Israeli Women for Peace \topurl{http://www.batshalom.org/}

8.. Deutsch-Isrelischer Arbeitskreis fur Frieden im Nahen Osten (DIAK)
\topurl{http://www.batshalom.org/}

9.. Eda Haredit, A hundred thousand anti-Zionist
Hasidim all at one place.
\topurl{http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill...91/satmar.html}

10.. B'Tselem \topurl{http://www.btselem.org/}

11.. "Occupied Territory" \topurl{http://www.occupied.org/}

12.. Rabbis for Human Rights \topurl{http://www.rhr.israel.net/indexa.html}

13.. Not in Our Name Coalition \topurl{http://www.diak.org/not_in_our_name.htm}

14.. Oz v'Shalom - Netivot Shalom (religious Zionist anti-Occupation)
\topurl{http://www.ariga.com/ozveshalom/index.asp}

15.. The Hidden History of Zionism by Ralph
Schoenman: \topurl{http://www.balkanunity.org/mideast/english/zionism/}
16.. Association for Civil Rights in Israel \topurl{http://www.nif.org/acri/}

17.. Gush Shalom \topurl{http://www.gush-shalom.org/}

18.: Jews United Against Zionism:
\topurl{http://www.netureikarta.org/index.htm}

Just debate the issue. Why resort to name calling and treating someone like they are an idiot. If Bernstein and these sites are wrong then show me proof, DEBATE. But no again you'll attack or ignore. Obviously, you feel I am uneducated and ignorant so educate me. But your excuse will be you don't have time or no matter what you say won't help. To that I ask why? You have enough time to explain and celebrate why 6 people should die without trial. You have no time to try to debate peacefully and maybe win others onto your side.

How does Israel not treat the Palestinians without rights? The Palestinians that are Israeli citizens have all the same as the next citizen, get this though, Palestinians living in refugee camps I.E. in Gaza or the West Bank are not Israeli Sovereign, they are respectively under the control of Egypt and Jordan. Not to mention that Israel is not systematically ERADICATING AN ENTIRE RACE OF PEOPLE. Thats why Nazi Germany and Israel differ.

I disagree, I think Kennedy created the world's premiere terrorist organization. Hamas is 'low rent'.

Maybe terrorism would not be a problem in Israel if the Palestinians were given rights, and the too-wealthy-for-their-own-good PLO leaders evicted. /me

As stated before rights of the Palestinians is not in the hands of the Israeli's, hopefully they can figure it out this summer when the provisional state is established (its this summer right?).

you mean the peace-corps?

I quoted this one because it was more to the point.

Gaza and West Strip are NOT UNDER ISREALI RULE WHATSOEVER?

LINK: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/gz.html

THIS IS A DIRECT QUOTE FROM THE UNITED STATES CIA, lifted from the link so that people can decide whether they choose to look over the whole of the CIA paper on West Strip / GAZA.

"Disputes - international:
West Bank and Gaza Strip are Israeli-occupied with current status subject to the Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement - permanent status to be determined through further negotiation

This page was last updated on 18 December, 2003"

Seems to me the Isrealis still occupy.

?

The Green Berets, Navy SEALs, Forced Recon, and Air Force Special Forces. . . Is this what you mean? Sorry to get off subject, maybe if you could start another thread you could further explain you mean.

Israel's occupation doesn't mean they have annexed the land or asserted any political or civic control over it. They are in there because of military operation, much like the US in Iraq.

So if Gaza and West Bank are under Egyptian and Jordanian control, why is Isreal allowed to bomb them and send troops in? Seems to me Egypt and Jordan would consider this breaching their lands.

However, you are right you are not "eradicating" a race, just giving them no rights and freedoms and killing their leaders without trials.

First of all, stop shouting.

Second of all, I've been through these debates here and on other sites. Ask Food Eater Lad, if he's still around. I won't shy away from anything.

Third of all, I'm sorry if you think that this is an insult directed at you but your sources are comprised of bullshit. If you throw out that Bernstein was murdered by Mossad, it's not up to me to prove that he wasn't. It's up to you to prove that he was.

I say JFK was murdered by an ice cream truck driver. IF YOU DISAGREE, PROVE ME WRONG. :rolleyes:

Now, I'm not going into the tired Holocaust debate. If you're obsessed by that then debate it over on another site or start your own thread. From what I see, you're the one bringing it up, not Israelis and not Jews.

Also, I never said that you are anti-semitic. But you seem to have a raw nerve that someone here has touched on. How, I don't know.

You want to equate Nazi Germany to Israel, it's your job to prove it to us. Show us how Israel is exterminating the Palestinian people. Show us how 4000 deaths (Btselem stats) in 16 years of conflict equal 6,000,000 in 6 years.

And again, stop shouting.

Kennedy established a terrorist network to bait Castro. This organization was funded for twenty years at $50 million a year.

But terrorism is ok when the good guys are instigating. Reagan's backing of contras was hood rat compared to Kennedy's.

Then tell me why my sources are bullshit. It's easy like you said to say anything. So you saying they are Bullshit means nothing.

Explain to me why.

That simple. If you had this discussion in another thread and blew away all these links and sources then simply show me the link and I'll read it with open mind.

But where is the need to attack me? Simply put I am not in anyway attacking you, but putting forth my beliefs and WHY I believe them, all I am asking is show me why my beliefs are wrong. You have my guarnatee that I will read whatever evidence you present with open mind and I will admit I am wrong and that the materials I believed were wrong. That is a debate. That is how we learn and and exchange ideas. That is how progress is made. Not by attacking and treating others as though they are stupid and cannot change.

i have put forth my argument in a peaceful non attacking way. Why can't you? Truth does not have to attack, truth opens the heart and soul and reveals itself.

*edited to stop "yelling"*

I think that covers the Nazi part.

And no, noone else did, as I stated I had written that post on a different forum (Dave Davies.com/talktodave) but believed the point made was relevant here. To me the Holocaust killed far more than just Jews, but you are right, that is beside the point and is out of the realm for this focus. I appologize.

(LOL..... I am sure there were people here who didn't believe me capable of that. sorry tried to add a bit of humor)

So far Popo I give you credit that you are at least grasping debate and showing respect. I applaud you for your civility.

Jeez dude, relax. No one has attacked you. Yet you're still shouting.

What you don't seem to understand is that if we are not expected to believe you simply because you say it's true. It's not up to us to disprove what you say, it's up to you to prove it. If you want to know the truth then just research your sources and their sources. We don't need to do your thinking for you.

If you still think I'm attacking you, well then...

But you had stated that Isreal was free of those territories all together and that they were Jordanian and Egyptian. Now you are admitting that Isreal does occupy.

And by the way, "much like Iraq" we see where that is going. It is Bush's illegal war and his reasons change when the previous one is found to be a lie. Bad comparison, if you are making a point.

First I edited.

Secondly I applauded you.

Thirdly, this is the problem and you are illustrating it well. How can there be peace and how can anyone expect to find common ground.

When one side shows his research, shows what he believes and is honestly asking the other to simply show their side. But that side is saying they don't want to. That the person needs to research more.

OK so basically what you are saying is what I believe is bullshit but you don't want to prove me wrong. Instead you would rather 1) have me say ok and keep my beliefs, because you are not showing me anything. Why should I even care I obviously have my answers. (Yet, I have an open mind and truly want to know the truth, therefore I am asking the other side to explain what and where my beliefs are wrong. Why is that so hard to do? I even said throw me links if you don't want to type it and I'll read them.)
2) have no idea how to show where I am wrong
or
3) truly don't care

Again I ask, How is this productive? Does this not lead to just more misunderstandings and hatreds? If you want to change minds the first step is open discussion of ideas. I gave mine but I get nothing from you. That will not change minds, that will only affirm the belief.

You did not present your ideas. You linked to an already much-debated very long article written by someone else. And you want me to counter that article point by point? Sorry, I don't have the next 6 weeks to spend on this.

But you're right. A part of me doesn't care. One thing I've learned from these debates is that the person will leave with the exact same opinion as when they came in. When shown how they lie and manipulate facts, they may get embarassed, they may go out in flames and they make change their moniker, but they will not change their mind. If I'm wrong about you... well you know the saying "fool me once shame on you..." I've been fooled way too many times. Shame on me.

If you have specific points that need clarification, I'm all ears.

Ok here is what I am trying to do. Obviously unsuccessful and therefore pointless it appears.

I am showing you all my cards so to speak. I am saying this is what I believe and why. BUT, I am also saying I do this with open mind and therefore if you show me how and why my beliefs are wrong then I will gladly change my mind.

These are the problems are world is facing today. Noone anywhere wants to persuade peacefully the other side. So each side is believing theirs to be right and in doing so becoming more and more stubborn and unwilling to hear.

Yes, this might just be some small forum and won't change the world but if one mind is changed by you explaining your side RATIONALLY and without name calling, treating others like they don't know anything and so on, then perhaps maybe that person can affect another's belief and that person and another's and so on and so on. But to just sit and allow someone to believe something and not try to show how they are wrong is just as wrong as the beliefs may be. Because you keep the misunderstandings and hatred going.

Perhaps, I am a dreamer and believe the world can change by people trying to achieve the sharing of ideas and dispelling myths and beliefs that are unfounded.

All I know is that in order for change both sides must offer their views without prejudice, which is what I tried to do.

Just a couple questions:

I've come to understand that Britain was sloppy, Im curious as to what your perception and historical interpretation is in the way they did.

Same question for the UNs role.

Are you familiar with what the percentage of European Jewish immigrants were Zionists? of that what percentage was largely responsible for LAWFULLY purchasing land from the "inhabitants" that were living alongside the native Jewish population in an area known as Palestine.


You know how hard it is to find what might be a neutral and accurate source of historical documentation these days especially with the internet being an open and available source for anyone to promote their interests. Can you please provide a source whether net related or not that has this historical record exactly as you've stated here. I only ask because I was under the impression the "inhabitants" were told to leave because anyone that stayed were "on their own" with the incoming Israeli forces.

If Im understanding you right; your saying that the Arab army (or whatever you want to call it) instructed the civilians to leave so they could kill the incoming Jewish forces. Is this correct?

Thanks for the input.

Popo,

I like you. You are intelligent, you are trying hard not to attack and you are honest. I truly appluad you for that and I truly admire you, perhaps we may call each other friend.

I can understand your reasoning because of the past issues you've had in not laying out your cards. But I am sincere and I am being as forthcoming and as open as I can be. But I cannot change what I believe if you don't give me a reason as to why I should. Saying the links provided and book I mentioned is filled with lies, doesn't give sound reason as to why I should research more, therefore my conclusion should stand.

So we are at an impasse on this subject. Perhaps someday, you and I can sit down open a thread and you'll be comfortable enough with me to share your beliefs.

As for me it's time to call it a night. Peace be with you my friend.

You will never be heard.
The devil leading the blind results in lemmings with stirred emotions and belligerent communication practices.

I find it humorous that many of you in this thread are calling the Hamas leader "monster" and "animal". You are exhibiting the manipulation of propaganda. Usually before a nation can begin a military campaign or semi-slaughter, the enemy has to be cast as evil, a monster, or in Bush-I's "He's [Saddam] a little Hitler."

Once everyone believes that some person is inhuman, then it is ok to kill them. Yes, the Hamas leader inspired the death of X number of people, but no person is not human, and no person deserves death.

It's like that "strategic" bombing of a restaurant Saddam might have been in two days before Gulf-War II. No body gave a fuck about everyone else in the restaurant, because there was a monster/animal in there that HAD to be killed.

Israel being one of the most racist, terrorist nations on earth, killing that Hamas leader and everyone else around him was all-in-a-day's-work.

Sigh. I have two things to say:

1. Please keep it civil. You guys have been doing great so far but I can't see this discussion going anywhere positive. I know it's an emotionally charged subject, but please try to enlighten each other. Dialogue in the place of debate would be a refreshing change.

2. Anybody who thinks either side is 100% in the right is blind to the facts. Keep in mind that you may not HAVE all the facts. Humility is the key to enlightenment, grasshopper.

Yes Israel is occupying Gaza and West Bank. As it stands they have been wanting to dump the land back into the hands of Arab control for 30+ years. Their occupation is still going on because of on going military missions to stop terrorism after two infitida's. I don't think Iraq is a bad comparison to the situation in Israel, Europe has been trying to pass sanctions and penalties onto Israel for a great many years because of the "illegal occupation", the US just vetoes them all down.

I think you need to do some more dirt digging Pan, Israel is not the lone gunman when it comes to the plight of the Palestinians. The Palestinians have been exploited by Jordan and Syria for nearly 40 years now. The fact that Palestinians can become Israeli citizens and have full rights there, or the fact that if they stay in the West Bank under Jordan and get no rights speaks volumes.

You're right, he was a nice person and a decent human being.... Or you can live in reality and realize that this guy was an asshat and had it coming.

Again, no points, nothing to allow me to open my mind. Just more "Do your own research". Hell, you guys aren't even showing me where to start, yet I am to believe all my facts and research to date is wrong solely because you say so?

Just remember this, people in this thread came to you asking for knowledge (peacefully) and you chose not to give them any. As stated before that is worse than us having "false and faulty beliefs" because by your unwillingness to show anything, you perpetrate intentionally those beliefs to become even more firm and feelings of "why does it matter?" to continue. It all snowballs to where people, like me who do have open minds say, "fuck it, why should I care anymore?" (Unfortunately, speaking just for myself, I love life and living on this planet and learning others' ideas before we all destroy each other.)

As Billions of tax dollars go over there, I think the US people deserve to know what kind of people we are truly supporting in Isreal. Because the tax dollars we are sending over happens to be cutting into the education, health and growth of this country. Plus with that deficit thingy and all it's cutting into the future of the US in every aspect. But it's ok, we'll keep politicians in office who won't question and they'll keep sending you the checks.

Perhaps Isreal doesn't want peace. The more problems there are in the Middle East the more the US turns its back on what Isreal does and the more tax dollars Isreal gets from the US and UK to buy more WMD's, and perpetrate more hate and more troubles in that region. Aw well, we all have to die sometime, just was hoping a generation someday would be living without fear of the Middle East.

By the way............ you were the one who told me that ISREAL WASN'T THERE TO BEGIN WITH, now when confronted with facts you admit they do, but only because they are trying to instill peace. Either you are flat out lying or you truly don't know what's going on and you just can't admit that your beliefs are as faulty as mine.

You state they have been trying to get rid of Gaza, then why did they fight the 7 day war for it? Why when given oppurtunities left and right to rid themselves of it do they keep it?

I am not well versed in the religious doctrine but answer this...
Doesnt the doctrine call for a mass death? Waiting on a Red Calf?
Where do the protocols come into play when analyzing their political/military moves?

Its my opinion that these are among the most damaging passenges. I see these few words being the cause of alot of trouble; in the worst kinds of ways. Especially to individuals such as myself that see the Bible (especially the old test) as something similiar to Homer's writings.- I do rephrase IMO

"Behold, you are with child, and shall bear a son; you shall call his name Ishmael; because The Lord has given heed to your affliction. He shall be a wild ass of a man, his hand against every man and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell over against all his kinsmen." (Genesis 16:11-12).

"Cast out this slave woman with her son; for the son of this slave woman shall not be heir with my son Isaac." (Genesis 21:10 RSV)

Genesis 17
17Then Abraham bowed down to the ground, but he laughed to himself in disbelief. "How could I become a father at the age of one hundred?" he wondered. "Besides, Sarah is ninety; how could she have a baby?" 18And Abraham said to God, "Yes, may Ishmael enjoy your special blessing!"
19But God replied, "Sarah, your wife, will bear you a son. You will name him Isaac,[1] and I will confirm my everlasting covenant with him and his descendants.

There's been war ever since. The irony that both sides have the same father is overwhelming.



The Protocols shouldnt come into play; because theres too much debate over whether they're faked or not. Some may see their reference as being anti-semetic, distracting any point your trying to make. (unless your talking in a Illuminati or Bohemian Grove conspiracy thing) with a overtone of poltical correctness over it. I think they also damage the understanding (yeah some disagree) that there is a difference between being Jewish and being a Zionist. If you dont know; its worth researching.

1. US aid to Israel is I believe ball park figure 3-4 billion annually, some say as high as 5.5. It was something they recieved for making peace with Egpyt, hence Egypt recieves the same package. A lot of it is in loan form. As it goes Israel may be one of the few countries to have never faltered in paying it back. Further more why shouldn't Israel be allowed foreign aid? They been a very powerful strategic ally in two different major political fronts (cold war/ war on terrorism).

http://www.hotpolitics.com/tax4israel.htm
2. Perhaps Israel doesn't want peace. Or perhaps they want to be left alone. 1949 they made gains after being Invaded, same with 56'. The six day war of 67' came about because Egypt, Jordan, and Syria kept provoking Israel's military which was causing serious economic repercussions in the country, so Israel fixed the problem by beating the piss out of the Egpytian and Syrian militaries. Israel held on the gains as a means to bargain and broker peace. The Arabs refused to deal with the Israeli's except for Saddat in the 70's, at which point Gaza was relinquished, and Saddat was killed by hardliners.

3. I never said Israel was not occupying Gaza or the West Bank. You were talking about how they Palestinians there are held down, you were blaming Israel. All I made mention to was the fact that those incharge of the situation are actually Egypt, Jordan, and The PA. Civically and politcally Israel exerts no control. The occupation is a tough thing. On one hand you have Palestinians being repressed, on the other everytime Israel eases up a bus or restuarant gets blown up. The PA has done nothing to curb the terrorism, if anything it promotes it through organizations that are a member of the politcal fatah movement i.e. Al Aqsa. At this point Israel has every right to protect its citizens by any and all means necessary.

I wasn't trying to shout anyone down, nor was I trying to avoid the facts. If I am wrong someone can point it out, but as I understand it, this is the way things currently are. Also I think a big conflict of interest is that we are on different ends of the hawk/dove spectrum, not to mention it seems you misread or misinterpreted what I said.

Very good response.
I do believe that there is a difference between being Jewish & Zionist yet in policy there are Zionists in control of Israel. This brings the Jewish people into a generalization.

Just like here in the US.

Pan, no one is calling you names. But Bernstein (regardless of his religion) comes from the extreme fringe. It's just way too time-consuming to go through his book point by point. If you want to read more on the subject then get Thomas Freidman (who in spite of his religion is viewed as very balanced.

If you want to read the opposite of Bernstein read Joseph Farah, an Arab:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=37696

But if you have any specific question, like I said, I'm all ears.

Mojo_PeiPei,

It's been interesting reading your ongoing comments. After studying the Israel/Palestine question for years, I've become fascinated with the how the Zionist argument is put forth, despite all the history and evidence it contradicts. You recite the doctirne as if you have a textbook next to your computer. All the key points are mentioned:

1) Israel is never the aggressor, but instead always on the defensive, using its "purity of arms".

2) Palestinians ran away because they were told to by their leaders.

3) "Occupation".

4) Arab Israeli's have equal rights.

5) Arab/Jew conflict the norm for thousands of years.

I think all you need to do to fully solidify your position is to deny the existence of the Palestinians as a people and state that Palestine was empty before the Jews got there. A land without people waiting for a people without land, right?

I'm curious, what University do/did you do the majority of your studying on the subject at?


SLM3

Did you write that mojo?

Now we have peaceful discourse of ideas. My thanks gentlemen and my appologies if you mistook my postings.

But now we learn why others think what they do. Now we exchange so ideas and now perhaps we can start healing on both sides and this issue as far as this forum is concerned has answers on both sides to research and change or at least understand ideas new to them.

I truly commend you Popo and Mojo for sharing and at least starting me with some ideas I may not have known of.

Enlightenment is the only way to true peace. Violence shall only beget more extreme violence till eventually no man truly has any idea why he is fighting.

I found the parallels very interesting myself :D

I find one learns with experience.. .settle down young lads

Anyways so who is up for the game 'grow more terrorists'

Alright, since everyone seems to be getting down on my way of doing things, how would you handle it Zeld? And don't give me some vague answer like "address the roots". Address what roots? How do you handle them? What do you do in the mean time when the war on terrorism is still in full swing? Do you cave? Do you do nothing? Do you stick your tale between your legs and pull out? Since the Hawkish way is so foolish, what is the better alternative?

Or if that is to universal, maybe within the context on this original post... What the hell is Israel to do?

My cynical answer would be I don't give a shit let em screw each self up because the past is the past and its hard to stop a feud that goes back like that.

The other side is simple what NOT to do - and thats keep blowing each other up.

You piss off one side you bet they'll try and hit back.

Case in point: Assholes decide to beat your brother up. What do you do? Human tendency is to go and beat the crap out of them up, slash their tires, etc.

Keep going in circles much?

As for a solution... check back when humans change

I would agree let them hash it out. But realisitcally speaking Israel can't do that. The government has a responsibility to protect its people.

You seem to be asking how to put out a forest fire which is raging out of control. I don't know the answer but I know pissing on the fire won't help. Isreal pissed on the fire and have only made things worse for themselves longterm, though they might have enjoyed pissing on the fire in the short-term.

The government has a responsibility to protect its people - but what its doing is thinking its protecting its people when in truth it only fans the flames for more attacks in the future. Its a short term answer that hurts the long term situation.

Its sort of like that one suicide quote ("Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem") - but twisted around to say "The situation is a permanent problem with a temporary solution."

Not the best twisting of the quote but the point is, their very thought of 'protecting its citizens' happens to be leading to more of their citizens being killed, and the cycle continues.

Why think that the cycle will run itself out (unless everyone suddenly dies of course and all those associated with any emotional attachment do as well) when thats exactly what a cycle is - it keeps going. You cut the cycle to prevent it from going on and on and on and on...

I hear what you guys are saying. The problem is with the Palestinians. It would be a different story if the Palestinians wanted peace, but they don't. Maybe the run of the mill Palestinian does, but groups like Hamas and Al Aqsa stated and continuing goal is not peace, its the total destruction and death of Israel. Arafat is a goon who exploits the situation, perpetuating the violence for his own personal gain as various threads have stated. Even if Israel were to cease all operation in Gaza and the West Bank, and relinquish all land back, I don't think the situation would be any better then it is now.

I see it in a completely opposite light. I think that in their view they made things worse for themselves in the short term (perhaps more suicide bomb attempts) but in the long term Hamas was dealt a serious blow. Their _leader_ is dead.

Hamas is an organization already dedicated to continuing suicide bombings until Israel is destroyed. They are not the PLO or other so-called moderates who claim to want to live side-by-side with Israel. Hamas' stated goal is destruction of Israel. Calling Yassin a moderate because he concentrates on the spiritual side of suicide bombing as opposed to the art of bomb-making is ridiculous.

Do you folks not think that the killing of Bin Laden will fuel Al-Qaeda towards revenge? Should the US let him walk in fear of that?

If Bin Laden is caught he should stand trial before an international tribunal the same as the Nazis did at Nuremburg. Anything less than that would feed the oppositions cause and make him a martyr.

Will it happen? No, because the Bush family has to many ties to the Bin Laden family and if they came out the Bush's would be on trial with him.

Also, it won't happen because the World Court would also want to try a man named Kissinger and the US has not allowed that to happen yet and never will.

It truly is a mess and the only way to get anywhere close to peace is to start changing ideas on both sides and trying to work for a peaceful solution.

The fanatical individuals on the Arab side that see the entire "Holy Land" as Palestine are exactly that and need to comprehend that Israel isnt going to go away. This takes a deeper truth as the generation the immigrated from Europe pass the torch on to those born into the country recognized as Israel. They by all rights are truly native to the land at that point.

As far as your question; IMO its very simple. Any settlement that is seen by the international community as being illegal needs to be dismantled now. Not 5 years, 5 months, or even weeks, but now.

Speaking only of the West Bank and Gaza strip and putting Camp David and the "B-offer" aside: A set amount of land. The Palestinian population grows just as any other. Expansion within the alloted boundries obviously is going to happen just as it will everywhere.
Zionist settlers that feel the entire region is theirs and settle on Palestinian land. They are going to grow just as anybody else. Just following the numbers its apparent to see that the two will collide. The difference is the settlers are protected by the full might of IDF.

I dont understand what the confusion or debate is. I've been told in prior conversations that giving the Palestinians their land back (referring to taking down every illegal settlement--not land control prior to the 40s) would jeapordize Isreali security and similiar ideals.

Palestinians dont want peace? Well settlements are there in the presence of terrorism. So is it the generel view that if the Palstinians just smiled and waved; the settlements would stop and pack up? The West Bank and Gaza arent big enough for the both of them. So I'm compelled to ask you the same question. Obviously killing innocent people is a horrible thing; what do you think the Palestinians should do about the Jewish population that is not declining on their land?

Aside from the history which can be debated round in circles, its the here and now with what the next day is going to bring thats vital. If the settlements continue----what do you see happening?

Not that I'm about to say anything original or make a sensational first post but here it goes anyway :

Am I sorry that he's dead ? Not really although I do feel sorry for the usual "collateral damage" that was necessary in order to kill an overaged paraplegic (I mean, WTF, missiles ?).

However, it's obvious that Israel can no longer claim they're striving for peace in the middle east.

Allow me to disagree. The man wasn't a leader in the sense that he planned out and made the strategic/tactical decisions. He was just a symbol, the person who personified the struggle against Israel. With this assasination, that symbol has been immortalized rather than removed. Thus, no long term benefits. IMHO.

i know it's off topic, but why would they want to put kissenger on trial?

Sun, there's lots of confusion about the settlements and settlers. IMO they are given far too much focus for no reason. There is an estimated 300,000 "settlers" but that comprises people who live in & around Jerusalem, in land that was originally meant for neither Israel or Palestine. It was to be an international zone until the Arab states attacked in 48 rearranging everything. Jordan has given up their claim to that land (which they occupied until 1967) and although Israel will cede some of it to Palestine (truly as a good will gesture, since it was never planned for Palestine in the first place), they will not give it all up.

That's why the 300,000 settlers is misleading. Not counting the average joes in these surburbs, the true settler population is more in the range of 70,000. A lot of focus for a very small population. These are the people deep into the West Bank and Gaza who have religious views of the land belonging to Israel.

Although much noise is made regarding Hebron settlers, Jews have constantly and peacefully lived in Hebron throughout the ages until the 1929 Hebron Massacre when Arab mobs killed 67 Jews and forced the rest out. That's why there's only a tiny population of Jews in Hebron now. Why we hear so much about Deir Yassin and nothing on Hebron Massacre... your guess is as good as mine.

So, why should Jews be kicked out of areas (other areas of West Bank too) where they've lived for centuries? Isn't that ethnic cleansing of the West Bank? I don't hear the Left calling for a Right of Return for the Jews to areas where they were kicked out from... nor for the 600,000 or so Jews kicked out of Arab countries in the 50's.

Anyways, back to the "settlers"... even they aren't as nuts as they are made out to be.

The settlers are not an obstacle to peace.

Contrast those poll results to these from Oct 03:

Not good.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Flat
[B] Not that I'm about to say anything original or make a sensational first post but here it goes anyway :

He did narrowly escape another attack last summer. He's pretty quick on those wheels!

He actually was arrested years ago but Israel was forced to release him as part of PLO negotiations. Of course, he din't abide by the release agreement and still acted as the Hamas leader. Of course, Arafat watched and smiled.

You do realize that Hamas is not a moderate group... They are dedicated to the destruction of Israel, and replacing it with an Islamic state. They are not looking for a Palestinian state living side by side in peace with Israel.



It's not true. He was more than symbolic. He was the mastermind who founded Hamas and was no dummy. Even as a quadroplegic he was stressed religious duty to carry out attacks and even recently claimed that Islam allows for females to be suicide bombers which is why Hamas began recruiting them.

Anyone else notice that successful bombings have become rarer and rarer? More and more bombers are getting stopped. You knock out enough of their leaders and they are bound to be weaker for it, regardless of what they about revenge.

I saw in the paper like a thousand or so militants marched through town to his burial (military fatigues, guns, hamas headband militants; those kind). It made me wonder why they didn't send in a few more hundred missles and taken care of the whole lot right then and there? Maybe they didn't know they were there.

But it seems to me a perfect time to take care of a lot of the violent Palestinians, teach them a lesson about idolizing people like that saruman the white looking fellow as well.

I'd take my chances with the PR hit, or just write some sort of law that says those guys with those hamas military fatigue outfits get blown up on sight, and make a note of it for the future.

Please stop, the image that comes to mind is guaranteeing me a ticket to hell.

Yes but Israel is not negotiating solely with Hamas but with the Palestenians a as whole. What I meant was that they knew this attack would really stir up the pot. They knew it would cause even more attacks worldwide as well as localy. In general, they knew it'd be a step backwards in any peace negotiations. Yet they went ahead. Thus they can no longer claim they want peace, they're dropping to the Hamas level of "exterminate the opponent".

Hm, not quite sure about either of those things.I still feel that his death was more of a boost to the fanatical sentiment . I surpose time will tell.



Because that would be killing people because of what they believe in. If Israel did that it'd just be conclusive proof that they're no better than the terrorists.

EDIT

Flat, here are Btselem stats for the total number of Israeli civilians killed:

http://btselem.org/English/Statistic...ies_Tables.asp

Oct 01 to Feb 02: 77

March 02 to July 02: 185

August 02 to Dec 02: 63

Jan 03 to May 03: 50

June 03 to Oct 03: 76

Nov 03 to March 04: 23

Something Israel's done the past 5 months is working. Is it the separation wall? Is it the fact that Israel is giving Hamas and Fatah leadership something to worry about aside from whether to tell the bombers to stand at the front or back of the bus?

Or is it that the new leaders are being pressured to act too quickly, sending out 14 year olds to commit mass murder before they're fully "indoctrinated", as what happened yesterday.

I'm not sure if you saw the news report but a 14 year old was stopped at the border entry into Israel with a suicide vest. The boy was practically in tears, begging for a pair of scissors to be handed to him by a robot instead of 72 virgins. Maybe since he was only 14 he was only offered 52 virgins... maybe being a 14 year old he doesn't appreciate the value of a virgin. I dunno. But if this is what they're relying on to step up attacks...

These are the stats according to the IDF website (they only show by year):

http://www.israel-mfa.gov.il/mfa/ter...ce%20September

In 2002: 451 deaths Israeli civilian

In 2003: 213 deaths

In 2004: 29 deaths through 3 months (rate of ~120 for the year)

So again, Israel's doing something right. Even with terrorists madder than ever after many of their leaders have been targetted, they aren't as successful as they used to be.

This is true but the biggest problem yet is the mindset that Hamas et al.,,have regarding Israel. Rather than wishing death to Israel, they should really sharpen their pencils and realize that Israel isn't going anywhere soon and killing Israeli citizens only brings more dire circumstances to it's own peoples.

Having said that, and if the Hamas et al changed their strategy to wanting peace rather than not, they would target Israeli politicians rather than innocent civilians. Confused? As it stands now, whether the Palestinian's attack or not, they are still not getting anywhere.The Hamas could call a 20 year ceasefire and the plight of the Palestinian's wouldn't change one bit. If innocent Israeli's were killed, they could be relegated to collateral damage as the Palestinian's are now so.

Not making sense? Look at it like this. If the Palestinian terrorists streamlined their attacks towards people of authority, and let it be known it is Israel's policies directed towards them that is causing them to act as they do,whether or not such is the case, not the Israeli people in general, I would bet that the U.S would be quite interested in a solid peace plan.Whether or not the Israeli's are to blame for the plight of the Palestinian's doesn't matter, the inference will stick.


Why? Not to reward terrorism but rather to erradicate it. How can the U.S or anyone else then say that the Israeli's are not terrorists themselves if both sides are doing the same thing? They both want peace but the attacks continue from both sides. Who is right and who is wrong? The Israeli's are trying to defend their people and the Palestinian's are trying to defend their's. Political assasinations always make people sit up a little straighter.

Will this happen? No. And simply because Hamas et al are not smart enough to think that way which, in the end provides a virtual shooting gallery for the Israeli's. Do these people actually think that rifles and the odd rocket launcher is going to destroy the 4th most powerful military force in the world?

Morally correct? No. But what is? As far as I can see peace won't happen until Hamas make the changes I have suggested. I think the Israeli's, who aren't stupid know this and as long as chants like death to Israel continue,they hold the upper hand. If Hamas changes, the playing field will be equal, which wouldn't bode well for the Israeli's if the conflict lasts for any length of time since one side is so dominant over the other.

Considering the two intifadas take up a relatively small chunk of of the last 50 years, why don't you tell me how much non-violence has gotten the Palestinians over that time? They were a behaved oppressed people for many years, and what did that get them? If they're quiet, they're that much easier to squish. If they resist, they're terrorists.

The US will never approach the situation from a true mediator's standpoint. There will never be two states. That is unless they throw together a Palestinian state at the last second in order to avoid the innevitable shift in Israeli majority from Jewish to Arab.

The Palestinians have been demonized greatly in America. Thousands of years of coexistence in Palestine are ignored in order to relegate Palesinians to hateful anti-semites (it might be useful to look up semite to see the silliness of that term) who are Hell bent on the destruction of all Jews.

People forget who took what from whom. People see a 20 year old, educated woman with a bomb strapped to her chest and they ask why she's so evil, not teh question of what might cause her to take such desperate measures.

This 72 virgins garbage is getting tired too. If it was such a blissfull outcome, then why wait until now to take such action? Why aren't arabs all over the world blowing themselves up? What do they have to lose?


SLM3

I don't recall the last time Israel sent scared children to blow up Palestinians:


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http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...threadid=50163

Israelis Stop Teen Wearing Suicide Vest
2 hours, 34 minutes ago

By GAVIN RABINOWITZ, Associated Press Writer

HAWARA CHECKPOINT, West Bank - A 16-year-old Palestinian with a suicide bomb vest strapped to his torso was on a mission to kill the Israeli soldiers who caught and disarmed him before he could strike, the army said. The youngster told a newspaper he had been afraid to die.....