A soldier describes Fallujah
 

This my friends is why we are going into Fallujah, and this is why it would be horrible to fail. I have faith that our men are far better equipped and trained and will have little problem clearing the terrorists out, but undoubtedly some will die trying. Perhaps its part of some grand strategy getting most of the rats in one nest, or perhaps its just the accident of failed diplomacy. I wish him luck.

Whilst I'm not doubting the veracity of this letter, a source would be nice. Just to meet the high standards you call for from others, you understand.

Mr Mephisto

I certainly hope Dave doesn't lose his life trying to secure Fallujah.

Here are some opinions of Iraqi youth before and after the invasion for those that care:

http://www.linktv.org/streams/bridgesBaghdad.php3

I'm just curious as to why you consider the Iraqi fighters terrorist's whereas the US soldiers are good men and women? The question has come up before and most likely will come up again unanswered or answered one-sidedly.

Hypothetically speaking, lets say it was the Iraqis that invaded our country because they felt Bush needs to be taken out of power. If the Americans would retaliate and fight back because they felt that their country was wrongfully invaded, would that make them terrorist and the Iraqis good men and women?

I feel that there is a double standard in this situation and that the term "terrorist" is used too loosely. Surely the very few that behead contractors and whatnot can be considered terrorist's, but again, those are few and far in between. I believe most are fighting because they feel that their country as well as religion is not the business of the Americans to worry about, and rightfully so, they will fight for their beliefs. I do not believe that should qualify them as terrorists. I could very easily label the American soldiers as terrorists for the same reason you consider the Iraqi fighters terrorist.

If you feel the need to classify a group of people as terrorists, at least do so fairly.

I think it might be from here:

http://www.thegreenside.com/

<a href="http://www.counterpunch.org/tripp11042004.html">....."Here's what makes me sick: the last time, Americans voted for this Hakencreuz Hillbilly because he misrepresented what he was about. This time, they knew exactly what he was about, and they voted for him anyway."</a>

host, I'd say it's another example of politicians trying to be generals. It happened in Vietnam, it happened here. Of course politicians *need* to control the military, but they shouldn't launch or stop an attack against the advice from the commanders in the field, *unless* the political situation absolutely demands it. I doubt this was the case during the first attack.

I just hope history doesn't repeat itself. This time will be much more bloody than the first attack, and the next one will be even worse.

Nice digs about Islam in the letter, too.

It's a guerrilla war for god's sake, that is how guerrillas are supposed to fight, hiding and killing from as safe a vantage point as possible.

I would be very suppressed if an assault on Fallujah achieves much, they have been telegraphing it for over a month. Any sane insurgent will know not to fight a stand up fight against a better armed and equipped enemy. Most of them have probably already left the city, with a few hard-core suicide squads left to bleed the Americans as much as possible. Nothing good will come of this, Americans, Iraqi civilians and suicidal extremists will die and more resentment will be created.

If they already left the city, that's good. You see, after the remnants are defeated, the US and Iraqi forces will be in control of the city, and the insurgents will have one less place to hide in.

It's about time.

Hoorah!

This is a crock of shit, sorry, but it's true.

Freedom fighters who love their country don't behead their fellow country men. Terrorists do that. Freedom fighters who love their country don't drive cars loaded down with expolsive into crowds of women and children, fellow citizens of Iraq.

In a more civilized society, if these "Freedom Fighters" were serious about helping better their country, they would work through peaceful means with people in their own country and the US forces.

It's also really disturbing the amoral tone in which this post was written with. You are basically justifying the action of sociopaths and the evil they spread.

Well, either you COMPLETELY ignored my post, or responded without reading the whole thing. If you actually look at the post, you will understand that I already labeled the extremist doing the suicide bombings and beheadings as terrorists. Not EVERYONE in Iraq fighting the American forces take part in these terrorist activities though, it is a very small percentage.
Oh I see, so the only way to not be labeled as a terrorist is to cooperate with the US forces? Once again, put yourself in their shoes, would you cooperate with the soldiers that killed your loved ones? I said I don’t want one-sided responses.
It’s more disturbing that you label the murderous actions of the US soldiers (which are terrorists in the eyes of many around the world) justified, whereas the Iraqis are evil murderers. Oh no, the US soldiers are perfect humanitarians, none of them are crazed sociopaths, they are all sane individuals looking to help Iraq to a better future. Once again, don’t respond if you can’t be objective.

Do you have any evidence to back that up? As far as I see it, the insurgents are either terrorists from neighboring countries, ex-Ba'athists trying to regain power, fundamentalist Muslims trying to start a revolution, or common criminals trying to make a quick buck. Sure, they're not *all* terrorists, but they all have their own agenda, and they're all trying to achieve their goals with violent means, no matter how many people, including civilians, die.

That's not what he said. He (and I) feels that the best way to help Iraq is to cooperate with the new government, and the US forces. To do anything else will only bring suffering to the people of Iraq. But of course, if the US is your great Satan, it's hard to comprehend they might not be interested in taking over your shithole of a country.

Now, if I were to live in Iraq, I know what I'd do: after decades of death and destruction, I'd want a peaceful society. That means I would NOT attack anyone suspected of cooperating with the "enemy", if that enemy is trying to rebuild my friggin' country. Furthermore, if my loved ones were killed by US soldiers, I'd be pretty damn angry; but I would be equally angry if my loved ones were murdered by Iraqi "freedom fighters"... angry enough to want to join the new Iraqi army and crush the terrorists!

So, how's that for a one-sided response?

There's a difference between what many around the world think and the real world. Nobody ever said US soldiers were perfect, so you can stop pretending anyone did. However, the majority of US soldiers are ultimately fighting to rebuild Iraq and create a safe and peaceful country. The terrorists/insurgents seem only able to destroy things and kill people, all in the name of their respective cause. I know who I support; do you?

Oh no, you are not one-sided in the least, that "shithole of a country" is filled with idiot terrorist who can't comprehend that the US are not trying to take over their country. Whenever you try to shove "democracy" down the throat of another country that obviously does not want the so called "help", you back off and mind your own and deal with all the problems in your own country. Maybe starting with the blind racism and hatred.


Yes, I support those who feel murder is not necessary to achieve peace.

A little late is better than never, I guess. If anyone can do the job, the U.S. Marines (with Iraqi Forces alongside them) can.

Thanks, Ustwo for the letter. Always good to hear from the 'Boots on the Ground'.
I'm of the opinion that the Coalition Forces aren't the Bad Guys, here, as well.

Very well said.

Who the hell do we think we are (our leaders)? Either call our efforts and offensives Imperialistic or back the hell down and get in line with the rest of the world.

Actually, we're not taking over their country. The sooner the Iraqi people stop fighting and take part in setting up their new government, the sooner they will not need our help, and the sooner we will be gone.

Too simplistic of a view in my opinion. If America wasn't the current World Superpower, than somebody else would be. And the ones with all the Power might not be as benevolent to the rest of the world as America tries to be. Imagine for a second the Nazis as the World Superpower, or the religious fanatics of Iran as the World Superpower, or the Taliban as the World Superpower, or Al Qaeda as the World Superpower.

Imagine what kind of world that would be, if you can.

There is a clear difference between being the super-power and being the Ruler-of-the-World.

Dingdingding...we have a winner.

The problem with that is that the insurgents will simply come back once the heat is back. There is no real way that the coalition forces can control the city, they simply cannot stop the insurgents moving at will.

And that difference would be?

The Coalition Forces won't have to stop the insurgents coming back. The new and legitimate Iraqi authorities stationed in Fallujah, under the command of the Iraqi Government, will be responsible for security in the city.

I would agree with you if it was shown that it was the Iraqi's that were doing the freedom fighting. But if I'm not mistaken, most of the insurgents caught or killed are foreigners, other than Iraqis? Al-Zarqawi is Jordanian or Lebanese isn't he?

I'm curious as to where these figures come from.

I'm not disputing them, but I do doubt statements without references.

Certainly, beyond doubt, there are lots of foreigners fighting in Iraq (and I'm not talking about Americans or Poles).
Also certain, beyond doubt, is that there are lots of Iraqis fighting in Iraq.

Common sense and statistical probability would imply that the majority of the "fighters" are therefore Iraqi.

Maybe I'm wrong.


Mr Mephisto

Agreed, and most are on our side. We arn't training their army cause its fun.

Thanks for posting this letter. I hope our men and women in Iraq know that the majority of us back in the states support them and wish them well. Hopefully after they free Fallujah from the terrorists Iraq will be closer to being able to maintain their own peace hastening our soldiers return.

They'll welcome us as liberators, right?

Send in those Marines, and try to restore peace to the city...and i pray for our soliders and the civilians of the town. But that we're in this situation in the first place is testament to the powers of f$ck uppery that the Bushies have. Who would have thought that occupying Iraq could have been a dangerous thing to attempt?

We should level it. I'm talking on a Biblical scale....fire and brimstone, pillars of salt, the whole enchilada.

Whats the explosive power a whole enchilada?

and by biblical scale you mean:

Matthew 5:44

“But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you..”

Luke 6:29

“If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also; and from anyone who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt.”

If that indeed is what you were talking about, yes, i'd support such Biblical solution.

If, on the otherhand, you were talking about killing the entire town, you're not the first one to propose that solution. I can't remember who said it, but it was in a German accent.

Pacifism is a disease... Jesus came here for spiritual salvation, whereas the rest of us are only consciously bound to the here and now.

Two in the chest and one in the head, please.

Indeed, it is far better to follow prophets grounded in the here and now, able to embrace the difficult decisions that need to be made for national security.

Gosh, there are just days when you miss "Iron Joe" Stalin, or Pol Pot. *They* would know how to destroy a villiage to save it. Genocide is really the practical answer to this Iraqi question.

Martinguerre,

don't rise to this kind of trollbait.

Either posts such as those above are breathtakingly naive and/or stupid, or the posters are just trying to provoke reasonable minded people.

Eitherway, it's best to ignore them. Sometimes they go away.


Mr Mephisto

It's easy to promote idealism and peace, but that is what is Naive.

Their is a cold hard reality out there, we are at war with a real enemy.

Whose more irrational, me for thinking their is no decent way of dealing with this, or you for thinking there is?

And who is preaching Genocide?

It's just so easy, isn't it? Keep bombing the "terrorists" and have an election. Voila! Democracy!

It just amazes me the lack of serious study and thought that goes into the opinions of the ones with the big guns. Trust me, it is Iraqis fighting over there. I know Iraqis that have been back since the war started and they all tell me the anger with which their neighbours are fighting. They fought the British and they'll fight the Americans.

Does anyone want to actually look at the socio-political history of Iraq in order to see why this mess was so easily predicted? Do you understand why it is IMPOSSIBLE to impose democracy in Iraq right now (or for the next several decades or so as well)? Where were the institutions? The constitutional liberalism? It's a joke to think this experiment will result in a free, democratic Iraq. But really, when did anyone of any influence care about a free, democratic Iraq?

Some of you who have such a strong hatred and anger sure do talk a big game behind your computer. If you are so passionate about murdering Iraqis or leveling their country, why don't you walk the walk? It's easy to sit at the computer and spew random hatred and non-sense, but if you truly feel the way you feel, get off your ass and go kill the Iraqis you seem to hate so strongly. Enlist in the "honorable" military and join the rest of the killers.

If you can't figure it out by now, Daswig and Ustwo were being sarcastic with the "leveling it to the ground" comments. Jesus Christ, mellow the fuck out.

I'm not sure about Daswig :lol:

..i'm slowly becoming convinced that "The United States of Canada" is the best idea democrats have ever come up with. Someone has totally lost it....

I am perfectly mellow, and it wasn't just Ustwo or Daswig I'm referring too. A lot of people feel that way and can do nothing but spew random non-sense online, hell, even offline for that matter and don't do nothing BUT talk. If anyone needs to "mellow the fuck out", it is you. And who is this Jesus Christ character you refer to?

"We should level it. I'm talking on a Biblical scale....fire and brimstone, pillars of salt, the whole enchilada."

That's Daswig, a few posts up. Killing civilians on a regular basis and/or massive scale is a war crime. Thousands of Iraqis losing their lives is not just a "bad" thing. We're getting sorely unable to even see them as human. We're supposed to be bringing freedom or something? Our role in inflicting mass death on the Iraqi people not only harms them, but rots our souls. When you cease to see the object of your violence as human, you've become a monster.

"We should level it. I'm talking on a Biblical scale....fire and brimstone, pillars of salt, the whole enchilada."

Women.

"We should level it. I'm talking on a Biblical scale....fire and brimstone, pillars of salt, the whole enchilada."

Children.

"We should level it. I'm talking on a Biblical scale....fire and brimstone, pillars of salt, the whole enchilada."

The elderly.

"We should level it. I'm talking on a Biblical scale....fire and brimstone, pillars of salt, the whole enchilada."

Families.

"We should level it. I'm talking on a Biblical scale....fire and brimstone, pillars of salt, the whole enchilada."

Civilians.

"We should level it. I'm talking on a Biblical scale....fire and brimstone, pillars of salt, the whole enchilada."

Innocents.

"We should level it. I'm talking on a Biblical scale....fire and brimstone, pillars of salt, the whole enchilada."

Humans made in the image of God.

Such talk is not war. It is the depraved corruption of power, and the worst of sins. If you're kidding? Fine...whatever. I often joke about committing murders...or other desecrations of human dignity. Other people suffering is teh funnay. You're not? See above.

gee, and what drew me into this thread is the following:

because i was interested in the usage of old ac/dc as a weapon.

and i find myself in "the return of the trailerpark johnwaynes" yet another installment in the ongoing "kill em all let god sort em out" series of very military fantasies of massacre, brought to you commercial free by your friends in conservativeland.

and you wonder why the other 48% is not happy that you folks are again in power.

frankly, imagining armored milktruck blasting bon scott period ac/dc driving around in fallujah in the middle of street fighting is less a problem than trying to figure out what some of you folks are thinking when you indulge the bloodlust thing.

I know this isn't proof of anything other than there may or may not be fighters of other countries there:

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3079806/

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...news-headlines

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/01/in...8ded8a&ei=5070

http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1074594/posts

However I did find this too:

http://www.iraq.net/displayarticle4632.html

But then there was this report, I don't know of it's authenticity:

http://www.theroughwoodsman.com/archives/001201.html

Anyway, just a few links.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...p?story=581298

Okay, Fallujah is now captured but the victory seems to be... not so effective:

So, the rebels bailed out and took the carnage out to other cities. I really like the quote from the Colonel about not letting any rebels to slip out. Well, this blunder just likely cost him his next promotion.

I think we need to take our man pills and destroy the mosques in the town. The terrorists use those sacred places as hiding and planing points. Our guys die because we leave the holy sites intact. However, if we destroy the mosques, we won't know where meet...

I dunno. I wouldn't like the idea of opposing armies coming here and destroying churches, but I wouldn't be suprised when they'd be attacked.

Erm...

I don't believe the "pacification" has been achieved at all. I have no idea what the Independent meant by that headline.

Also worth reading:

Falluja Assault Q&A - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3993809.stm
Urban warfare tactics - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/h...ml/default.stm


Mr Mephisto

Just for the record, here are two more:

Few Signs of Infiltration by Foreign Fighters in Iraq

Insurgents Are Mostly Iraqis, U.S. Military Says

That would also create more insurgents and more terrorist recruitment outside of Iraq...so in the end it's a bad idea

Please, leave my country out of this. We love our country just as it is thanks.
;) :D

The bridge where the American contractors were killed, mutilated and then strung up back in April.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ujahbridge.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...fallujahps.jpg

I still say that a nuke will cure the terrorists of thinking we're "weak".

FYI, they weren't contractors, they were mercenaries (hired guns).

Powerclown, the picture you linked first seems to be second chronologically; the "FUCK YOU" is blacked out in that one and the soldier appears to be writing something above it.

Looks more like the fuck you was highlighted a bit rather then blocked out.

Good. 'bout time we leveled the playing field.

As I look at it, you might be right. I suppose such a pithy and intelligent statement bears emphasis.

http://www.m90.org/./gallery/video/falluja.asf

Here is a pretty good video I found on the internet.