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By your logic, we would have "started" WWII against Japan if we'd shot down any of their torpedo bombers before they hit Pearl Harbor. |
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There are very clear laws prohibiting the practice above, unlike the act of secession, on which there were no prohibitions. In fact, as was earlier stated, three states demanded that right, and the other ten acceded. Let's review: First you said in an earlier post that Quote:
You followed that up with Quote:
Ergo, if you are to be believed in regard to the above, and in regard to your comments regarding democracy in #90, our Constitution is an illegal contract. Therefore, the South was within its rights to terminate the contract. Please note that it is not my position that the Constitution is an illegal contract. I am simply pointing out what I see as a flaw in your argument. I should also note that you seem to waver between saying the states had a right to secede, and saying they had no such right. |
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I'm not clear if the positions above represent the way you feel today, especially in regard to a). Although no one would say slavery wasn't an important component of (gig inserted here) the "War for Southern Independence," it has always appeared to me that the fundamental cause was clearly an intolerably overbearing central government. The financial aspects have been covered to some extent here, but not as much as I'd like. b) The NORTHERNERS might have agreed, but the Southerners would (and still do) react quite differently. You tend to take it personally when an army steals your possessions (silverware and livestock, not slaves) and destroys your crops, in order to have your family starve in your absence. The words "Never Again," borrowed from another cause, seem appropriate here. I also tend to contrast excusing "some illegal actions" of Lincoln to the flamebait thread I saw earlier in which someone delivered a rant because, for security, the parade participants weren't supposed to fix their gaze on President Bush. Examples from that thread: Quote:
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Habeas At least Bush hasn't ignored the chief justice of the US Supreme Court! |
I can't get to everything you said, but I will by at least monday night.o one of your questions:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...hlight=Lincoln From me: Quote:
[/quote] Neither of us specifically cite Habeas Corpus but we both allude to it in a manner that is obvious to anyone who is even remotely well read in American Civil War History. So, we are on record to this. |
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Habeas, the Constitution Quote:
By the way, does it meet with your approval for a president to rule the Union "as a dictator in wartime?" Thanks in advance. |
This is really interesting as it starts to bring up"the ends justifies the means" type of argument. Also, I feel it's heading into "slippery slope" territory of double standards.
For example: Would we find it ok if Bush suspended habeas corpus in the interest of "national security"? Would he then become one of the greats years from now? It's probably too soon to tell, one of the inate problems with the study of history. |
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Brace yourself for the replies you're about to receive. |
Lincoln was one of the greats in hindsight, not at the time. His decisions, though blatantly unconstitutional proved to be, I believe good decisions in the best interest of the nation.
I, and many like me, contend that Bush will not hold up to the test of time as Lincoln did. |
I'm glad to see that college priorities are right on track !
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Look, maybe the south should try seccession again. Take Texas when you go. Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya.
<small>Why oh why couldn't we just let these people go when we had the chance? Gee, thanks Abe. Screwed by republican president #1</small> |
We tried that once, seems we got shot, bombed, and occupied straight out of the idea!
I think this time we should just kick New York, Massachusetts, California, Illinios, and Connetticut out! |
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You also need us here to award you our federal taxes ;)
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More like you need us here to pay those Federal taxes. You folks pay more per-capita, but we pay far more in dollar amount, as I understand it. Not to mention grow most of your food, produce most of your electricity, produce and refine most of your petro-chem, mine most of your coal, bauxite, graphite, and building-stone, and provide you with cheap labour.
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sob: I didn't waver, I have completely changed my position after reading the philosophy of the paradox of democratic secession.
The document would not be made illegal because of an agreement made before the signing of the contract. The signers should have realized they would have had no true right to secceed before signing. They would still be bound by the contract but would be barred from performing the illegal action that they were granted from outside the contract. I take the position that once the states became one nation, individual states do not have the right to break away because they are american citizens first and state resident second. We don't go abroad and identify what state we are from, we identify that we are americans. The south attempted to seceede because of decisions our government was making were unfavorable to them. Tough titty, under the umbrella of democracy we vote on issues as a nation and make decisions that affect us all. They knew this going in, they shouldn't have expected to be in the drivers seat on every issue forever. It is just not realistic and not democratic. We are and always were american citizens, by the time of the civil war, everyone who was alive was born an american citizen. We make decisions together, the south did not even try to get together and vote with the rest of the nation on whether or not they would be allowed to leave (the only way they could seceede in a democracy) as such, they didn't have the right. on Habeas: You could make a case that suspending a part of the constitution is the same as suspending the whole thing. For a president to suspend any one part of it makes the rest of it just as vulnerable. dunedan: What the hell. We pay more per capita and we have more people, that means we pay more in dollar amount as well. But I never want this nation to be broken apart anyway. We need the south and midwest for their food production and the south and midwest needs the NE and West coast for our economic strength. BTW, I am from PA, we have plenty of coal, building-stone, etc up here as it is. Per dollar given to the Fed, this is how much each of these states get back. Those are the ten highest. 1. D.C. ($6.17) 2. North Dakota ($2.03) 3. New Mexico ($1.89) 4. Mississippi ($1.84) 5. Alaska ($1.82) 6. West Virginia ($1.74) 7. Montana ($1.64) 8. Alabama ($1.61) 9. South Dakota ($1.59) 10. Arkansas ($1.53) But this a whole different issue that we already covered here. |
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a lot of people don't really know what the constitution says. Sometimes they think they do, because they have some knowledge of the amendments. But the actual Articles? I think not... Quote:
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So there's my thoughts on the matter, I must admit I was happy they meshed with the document that created our nation. :) ...back to studying. |
" We don't go abroad and identify what state we are from, we identify that we are americans."
-Superbelt Just for the record..... we do In Texas. ;) I miss the Oilers. -fibber |
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At least, my friends who travel internationally recommended I follow that advice when abroad. |
just as a sidenote (i hope this hasn't been said in this thread already):
i'm in alabama for a short while... i actually heard someone call the "civil war" the "war of northern agression" in plain speech. that is to say, without the aire of the expression being a novelty of any sort. also, a person i met down here originally from Maine has told me he was once kicked out of a bar once the patrons heard his northern accent. wow. alabamans (alabamians?) have been great to me so far... but i sure was surprised that any of that sentiment was still around. |
Their is still a lot of talking back and forth between the northerners and southerners, wonder if they will get pissed at the federal government again for taking their rights away (bibles out of classroom) lol.
End of Sarcasm. |
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