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A loving God that instills fear of punishment as His "love"?

Discussion in 'Tilted Philosophy, Politics, and Economics' started by pan6467, Nov 27, 2011.

  1. pan6467

    pan6467 a triangle in a circular world.

    The idea comes from another thread where someone claims to be a Christian but believes that God being the parent dictates love through fear of discipline. It's a good argument. that's one reason there are so many denominations, each views God's love in a different way.

    In the Old Testament, it was pretty much very in line with what we deem the "mythologies" of many other civilizations, except for one major difference, a command for a monotheistic religion. If there was a natural disaster, it was a "god's" fault whether it was the Abarhamic Old Testament God or those pesky Greek/Roman/Norse/Egyptian gods it was them "teaching a lesson" to their "children".

    So Old Testament = just a monotheistic version of the "gods" from Valhalla/Mount Olympus/Ra/ whatever. However, if we look and read into the Old Testament, IF the Abrahamic God is so omnipotent then one must ask why does he say he is a jealous "GOD' and thus there should be no other "gods" before him? Is he refering to the polytheistic religions who explained emotions and natural disasters that they could not explain as coming from a "god" it was from Ares/Ra/Thor/Trident/Romulus and Remis/Aphrodite/whomever or the Abrahamic God. All of these used parables and "god influences" to explain what at the time was unexplainable.

    Thus if an asteroid or meteor crashed 1000's of miles away and because of its size rained "fire" from the sky, it was God destroying Sodom and Gomorrah for being sinful. Lot's wife is a "pillar of salt" can explain natural salt formations in the Dead Sea. "God's" punishment, yet in reality a natural disaster, explained in the only ways they knew how to in that era of time. The same exact way the Greeks/Romans/Norse/Egyptians would have used one of their "gods" to explain what happened.

    Now let's look at the New Testament:

    Abrahamic God impregnates a human woman to bear a son. The son disappears with little to no explanation, until he is a fully grown man. He comes back speaking radical (at the time) ideas. What he taught was community and love. He offered hope from this God who commanded fear from his "children". But again, for someone so loving and caring his message is "follow me or die".

    As for revelations it's a BS book to inspire more fear and control. Jesus (if you truly believe what he says is the be all and end all of following him) stated death was death and never mentions burning in Hell or the "anti-Christ", it isn't until Revelations that we see this loving God again "punishing through fear" those that do not believe in him. It came from not one of the original apostles nor Jesus himself, who is NOT even truly mentioned in Revelations. It is a nice way to command control over the believing masses though and many "born again" Christians thump this one book more than any other in the Bible. It is not a book of hope but a book of control and virtually takes all that Jesus taught and says, "yeah, follow him and the leaders of the church or this is what shall happen to you." Even though Jesus himself stated "death was death"(no hell-fire or brimstone"). Many scholars argue Christ basically taught not existing in the eyes of God is Hell.

    Now we take that and we add it all up to today where the "Religious" Right pretty much worship the dollar as their God and support the very people in power that Christ fought against. He (as were Buddha, Mohammed, Cicero, Plato, Plutarch) was against charging interest. In fact one reason the Jewish dominate the banking industry is because at one time the Catholic Church condemned charging interest.

    he was against mixing politics and religion, he felt taxes were acceptable no matter the rate.

    " (wonder if that is why we truly have "In God We trust" on our money?)

    And yet, the Religious Right and Wall Street would have us believe this was ok. That they were the ones God has blessed and that God loves through instilling fear of punishment.
     
  2. Alistair Eurotrash

    Location:
    Reading, UK
    As I don't believe in a sentient being who either loves us or disciplines us (or both), I can't really get into that.

    I do believe that many people create a God in their own image, and I think that is happening again here.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Derwood

    Derwood Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    God appeals to people who either can't live life with random events, or can't take credit/blame for their own actions.

    As such, the concept doesn't much appeal to me
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    My own morals are atheistic in nature, which basically means I believe that true discipline is self-discipline.

    —Chapter VIII: The Thousands, Verses 3–5, The Dhammapada: the sayings of Buddha (Thomas Cleary, trans.)

    The above considers that true discipline can only come from within, and such discipline is unshakable. You actually see examples of this with Buddhist monks in Chinese prisons. The Chinese routinely arrest Tibetan Buddhist monks and try to force them to shed their religion, using means as horrific as torture. Many of the Chinese cannot understand how resolute these monks are. The answer is simple. Their faith instills a discipline from within that cannot be overridden by a discipline from without.

    One released monk has famously spoken out about the horrors of what the Chinese are doing. He was once asked what he feared most while he was being tortured. His response? His greatest fear was that he would lose compassion for the Chinese.

    So one's greatest fear need not be punishment from a deity or even from men who would commit atrocities. One's greatest fear could easily be the fear of losing what is most precious: the capacity to love, the capacity for compassion, or, more fundamentally, self-control, self-discipline.

    It's true that, despite my atheistic upbringing, much of my moral foundation is derived from Buddhism, a religion on one hand but an applied philosophy on the other. It teaches that truth comes from cause and effect, and you can find it through awareness and observation. You can learn what is deemed "good" and "evil" by understanding oneself first and how to interact with others second.

    Without self-discipline, it is impossible to know these things. No amount of punishment will fix that.
     
  5. Eddie Getting Tilted

    God does not punish his children, He disciplines them. A punishment is a penalty, however the penalty for our misdeeds has already been paid by Jesus on the cross. Discipline, however, is a form of education from father to child...and can evoke fear.
     
  6. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    Yes, right. Punishment was an Old Testament thing, right?

    What are the forms of discipline in Christianity? What are some examples?
     
  7. Alistair Eurotrash

    Location:
    Reading, UK
    Why would it evoke fear?
     
  8. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    Furthermore, it "can" evoke fear, but does it need to? Is it essential for it to work?
     
  9. Derwood

    Derwood Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    Fear of the unknown is the reason why the God myth exists in the first place
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Joniemack

    Joniemack Beta brainwaves in session

    Location:
    Reading, UK
    A complete lack of understanding in such things as physics, mathematics and evolution permits me to understand why ancient cultures would look to deities as the cause and effect of everything in their lives. I understand these same beliefs in isolated tribal cultures.

    What I don't understand is how these beliefs survive today?

    Somewhere in all the reasons must lie the individual believer's fear - that acknowledging the science that has cleared up many of the mysteries of the ancients, removes the existence where he/she are not responsible for their own actions. They are still children, after all.

    Dangerous children at times.
     
  11. Eddie Getting Tilted

    Because discipline is often painful.
     
  12. Joniemack

    Joniemack Beta brainwaves in session

    Location:
    Reading, UK
    So a "Hell" where those who don't believe in him will burn for eternity?" How is that not a punishment?
     
  13. Derwood

    Derwood Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    He's just sending them to their room without supper.

    For eternity
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Alistair Eurotrash

    Location:
    Reading, UK
    But the pain caused by this "discipline" is not a punishment.. ?

    Tell me more ...
     
  15. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    This is why I have a lot of respect for Buddhism as a religion (and not merely a philosophy). You get figures such as the Dalai Lama and others who work alongside neurologists and psychologists in examining the brain to get a further understanding of how the mind works. Buddhism in many respects embraces science. It is tuned into reality via observing cause and effect.

    But pain isn't necessary for discipline. It's optional and often detrimental to true discipline.

    Not to steal Eddie's thunder, but punishment is separate from discipline. Punishment is inflicting a penalty for an offence. Discipline is teaching one how to follow an accepted code or conduct.

    Punishment is more or less saying "don't do that" or "you can't do that." It doesn't necessarily give the whys or wherefores. I will assume it often doesn't.

    Discipline is about whys and wherefores. It often includes punishment, but it doesn't need to.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  16. Joniemack

    Joniemack Beta brainwaves in session

    Location:
    Reading, UK
    Not like we're his children anyway, I suppose. Sort of like buying pot in 3rd world country. You can't expect any special treatment - straight to the dungeon.
    --- merged: Nov 27, 2011 11:48 PM ---
    Maybe because Buddhism is not so much a religion as it is a fearless discipline of mind, thought, body, and spirit. Its dogma, if you want to call it that, is suggestive rather than rule bound.
     
  17. ring

    ring

    The conflation of love and violence has been around in various forms for many ages.

    A parent whipping and beating a child while telling them, "I'm doing this because I love you."
    It's the ultimate mind-fuck and spirit-killer.
    And equally repulsive when some of the religious leaders use the same tactic.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  18. Joniemack

    Joniemack Beta brainwaves in session

    Location:
    Reading, UK
    "Spare the rod, spoil the child"

    The Bible says it so it must be right.:rolleyes:

    "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes." (Proverbs 13:24)
     
  19. Alistair Eurotrash

    Location:
    Reading, UK
    For "discipline" as a noun, I agree.

    However, as a verb, it means punishment. Eddie used it as a verb.
     
  20. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    Remember: If you meet Buddha on the road, kill him.

    It usually means that, but not always. Parents "disciplining" their children often involves a punishment, but not always. When children do something wrong, you can set them aside to teach them why they were wrong and how to set it right. If you consider this "setting aside" a punishment, then so be it. I might not see it that way.

    Discipline as a verb applied to what one does with oneself is not necessarily about self-punishment; it's often about finding ways to follow a certain code one ascribes to. One often disciplines oneself without punishing oneself.