females, feminists and femininity.

With a little prodding from @Poetry, I am starting this thread so that we can discuss the subject of 'being female' and what that means biologically, culturally, politically, socially and (perhaps) spiritually.

Men on the forum, please feel free to contribute as you wish. I just ask one thing OF EVERYONE: be kind to one another. I know that's a horse pill to swallow coming from me, but I'm serious. People may say things here that get under your skin, but let's try to remember that we've all been through the mill a time or two. We've all lived into our adult years learning hard lessons about life. We've all come by our opinions the hard way. Any bad feelings we have about one gender or another do not come from a happy place. Therefore, if you disagree with someone, find a way to tell them that comes from a place of benevolence, rather than anger and judgment. This is what I am going to try really hard to do and perhaps it is more of a challenge for me than anyone here.

This isn't politics. It's much more personal and intimate than that.

So here are some questions to start us off:

What are your earliest memories of gender awareness?

What were the norms for gender in your family and your community?

How have your attitudes toward gender been influenced by your personal experiences -

with your parents and family?

with your friendships?

with your romantic relationships?

other experiences?

How do you feel about feminism and how do you express it (if at all)?

What is your relationship with femininity?

That's a lot of questions, I know, but you don't have to answer them all.

My answers:

What are your earliest memories of gender awareness?
So early that I can't even remember how early. I was very 'girly' as a young child for no discernible reason. My mother was not, my older sister was not. But I was into dresses and little patent leather shoes and having my hair put up in rollers for as far back as I can remember.

What were the norms for gender in your family and your community?
It was the 70s, my parents were kind of hippies and they didn't really establish any hardcore gender roles. They of course, abided by the general rules established for dress, but that was about it. I don't recall any conversations saying that any of us could not do something because it was out of the norm for our gender. Both of my parents worked. My mother was very independent and politically active and very much a feminist. I don't really remember a lot of social life in Atlanta, but in New Smyrna Beach, FL the vibe was very much the same as had already been established for me. Gender was not a thing that really mattered until you started to reach puberty.

How have your attitudes toward gender been influenced by your personal experiences -
with your parents and family?
The attitudes of my parents toward gender equality has had a lasting, pervasive influence on my own relationship with being female. BUT, my dad was a bit of a woman-hater and my mom was a bit of a man-hater (both of them still are, really). Since I lived with my mom, I have carried a lot of her attitudes toward men around with me over the years. I'm trying to get past that now and I think I've done pretty good with that because I call her on her shit on a regular basis. It's not really an issue with my dad anymore. I think meeting my stepmom mellowed him out a lot.

with your friendships?
Most of my close friendships are/have been with women. All the way back to grade school. My friendships have been a very positive influence.

with your romantic relationships?
Here's where it gets a little sticky. I'll quote what I wrote in @Poetry's journal:

True story. And what makes it even worse is how often I see this manifest itself in other women.

How do you feel about feminism and how do you express it (if at all)?
I am passionately committed to feminism. I believe the ERA should have passed. I believe in equal pay for equal work. I believe in a woman's right to choose abortion. I believe that women should be allowed to participate in any organized sport they have the skill to play in. I believe a woman should be able to take on any line of work she has the ability to excel in, including military combat. And I think it is the not the responsibility of women to make men feel alright about it.

Of course, I think that most people would refer to me as a 'sex positive' feminist because I am not overly concerned with the sexualization of the female gender whether it is in films, photos or the flesh. I sort of follow along with the Sasha Grey philosophy by believing that those things do not cheapen or trivialize females unless you believe that there is something inherently wrong with the free expression of their sexuality. And if you believe there is something inherently wrong with the free expression of their sexuality then your attitudes are too retrograde for my taste. I don't believe that women give a part of themselves away when they engage in these things. That's not to say that exploitation and other bad things don't happen in the porn industry. Just that it's not the failure of women to be adequately chaste that's causing it. And, again, it is the responsibility of men to learn how to deal without their loins making them hysterical. I know this can be done. If not, then we're just a miniskirt away from the Taliban burkha philosophy. We cover 'em up so we're not tempted to lust after them. I have faith that they can do this.

What is your relationship with femininity?
I will quote here again what I said in @Poetry's blog because this is taking forever to write and I'm getting tired:

I do love everything about being female. I love my body, I love my mind, I love my perspective on the world. I love ENJOYING MEN. I think it's fucking great.

Wow, this is really long. Feel free to answer only the questions you want, add your own questions or go off on some tangent if you need to (as long as it eventually comes back around).

And remember: BE KIND.

 

Gah. I've barely skimmed this and know I'll come back and read over what you've written some more, cause I know I've got thoughts to share on this topic. I just don't have the brain capacity to do it right now. So, um, *placeholder*

This is going to be good.

 

What DammitAll said. Tiiiired. But I love it.

 

S'okay. Take your time.

Also, if anyone, particularly the guys, want to ask questions please feel free. With all of the recent discussions we've had this is a good opportunity to gather a little insight into how we all think and what goes through our minds when we see or read certain things. I think this could be interesting.

 

Hmmm. Where to start.

I was extremely girly before I started school. I loved ribbons and lace and dresses and bows. I took ballet, tap, and jazz classes, and I adored getting all dolled up for the recitals--makeup and curled hair and pretty, sparkly outfits. I don't remember exactly when I shifted over to the tomboy end of the spectrum...probably around kindergarten. I remember a group of boys passing the football around at recess, and I wanted to play. "Girls don't play football," they told me, and I was absolutely furious. I took my own football in the next day. That was also the year I started playing t-ball. I loved sliding.

And I don't think I ever really thought about it before, but for YEARS, I felt like I had to prove to "the boys" that I was just as tough, and just as good, as they were. I was fiercely competitive (in some respects, I still am), and I can remember lots of stupid "I can throw faster than you," "I can hit anything you pitch to me," "I can do more chin-ups than you" bets (I got mouthy with my friend's sister's boyfriend once, who was six years older than me, which led to me "proving" I was an awesome catcher, and his fastball wouldn't phase me. I'm happy to say I caught the pitches, but it was absolutely terrifying. Dude had an ARM.) I was actually kind of devastated the year I got boobs, because they got in the way of a lot of things, and I was no longer the best in gym class.


Still a lot more thoughts on this one, but that's the beginning. More to come later.

 

Some more thoughts:

This really resonated with me, because I was in the same kind of relationship, and found myself doing the exact same thing. I let a lot of things slide with him that I should never have put up with, because I didn't want to be the "crazy chick" or "doing the girl thing and getting upset about nothing." I actually did apologize for being female once, and @ZombieSquirrel totally called me out on my bullshit, because she is awesome.

I read a line in a blog a year or two ago that was something along the lines of "she's the type of woman who bonds with men by bashing other women." That really stuck with me, partly because I was horrified to realize that it could've been about me not that long ago.

I still seem to be able to carry on a conversation with men easier than with other women. I'm not sure what it is that makes me more nervous around women, but I've recognized that's the case, and I've gotten a little better. My circle of friends down here in NC is pretty evenly matched, male and female wise, although I admit that had more to do with relationship dynamics starting out.

 

Thanks CG for contributing. I hope the OP wasn't too daunting. Anything that anyone would like to share about being female (or living with females) is welcome here. It might take a little while for this thread to find its feet, but I'd like to try and keep the momentum going. Another concept occurred to me while I was driving home from school this morning: the slut. Not all women have had to deal with the reality of slut-shaming, but it's something that has impacted my life on a couple of different occasions. Most especially when I was 13 years old - the year I became sexually active.

I've mentioned before that I grew up taking dance classes and along with that came a level of understanding about my body - how it looked, how I could manipulate it physically to achieve certain aesthetic values. That sensual, aesthetic understanding (for me, and I think it is common with dancers) led very easily to sexual curiosity. I was sexually aware and very sexually curious by around the age of 10. I started experimenting with things around that time, primarily with a female friend who played the 'male' role. She may or may not have been a lesbian, I didn't know her long enough to find out because she moved away. At 12 I had my first kiss with a boy (and I was talking about this in chat the other night) he was awful, terrible, ugh, really gross kisser. The kind that just leaves his tongue sitting there in your mouth like a dead fish. Gross. Good thing I'm so unrelentingly straight because I might not have tried again. Soon after that, we moved from the small town of New Smyrna Beach to Orlando, and with that move I sort of took on a new persona. I was still taking dance classes and really into them, but I started dressing differently and started making it a point to attract the opposite sex. I soon found out that kissing was really, really nice...and that it made me want to do other things. In fact, did 'make' me do other things. In a period of about 4-6 weeks I slept with two boys from my school and made out with another one (who could not get it up). Me, not being the most astute observer of middle school politics, didn't see a problem with this. But it became apparent soon after that I had been labeled 'a slut.' Some of my girl friends rejected me (not all of them). Guys started coming out of the woodwork to talk to me. And I was told that my name was frequently used in flowery ways in the boys' bathrooms on campus. At the time and to this day, none of that really bothered me that much because I'm kind of a loner and I've never had a problem with self-esteem. Besides, I liked it. It was worth it. Even though the sex was not great, it was worth it. It was the beginning of a life-long process of learning about my own sexuality.

After that flurry of activity, I redirected my focus to males outside of my school. By the time I got to high school, I was seeing exclusively grown men. Looking back you can see how that is a natural progression for young women who are sexually motivated at a young age. There is too much scandal and stigma involved in the school, so you start to consider possibilities outside of that environment.

I don't think any of my impulses or behaviors were wrong or unnatural. I do agree that I didn't have the capacity to make good decisions - that I made bad decisions consistently all through that period. But I don't think the desires themselves were maladaptive or even unusual - I think that's just how I developed considering my biology and my environment. So considering this bit of history, you can understand why I am so opposed to slut-shaming. It's reactionary and retrograde and it suppresses the sexuality of women and insists that they feel ashamed for acting on sexual impulses. Even when they make bad decisions, it's not the lust and desire to have sex that is wrong, but the decision-making process that puts them at risk that should be looked at. And if they are not putting themselves at risk and just having sex (safely) whenever and with whomever they want? It's none of your goddamned business to judge them.

That brings me all the way to now and my experience here at the TFP. I have expressed my sexuality in a myriad of ways here - by writing and by posting photos (whether of myself or of other images that inspire me). ALL the time that I've been here I have felt safe and accepted and not judged for my behavior. Until recently, when the seed of doubt was planted in me brain. I still feel safe here, but I question whether the things I have shared have diminished me in the eyes of some people - my character, my credibility and the perception of me as a whole person. I don't how true that is or to what extent it may be true, but I can't deny that the thought of it didn't diminish my own enthusiasm for participating here in the ways that I have in the past. But, you know, that could be for the best because I will be graduating in a year or so and it would probably be best to tone that stuff down anyway. Still, it's not a happy, gratifying feeling to have after all these years.

Wow, wrote a lot again.
--- merged: Nov 6, 2013 at 12:56 PM ---

Well, you know, I don't watch a lot of sitcoms and stuff and the films I tend to watch tend to be a little more egalitarian than the big-budget blockbusters so, no I'm not hyper aware of it. I could go on a bit about the 'male gaze' though, but I have other stuff to do. As you might expect I have a sort of love/hate relationship with the 'male gaze.' On the one hand, I think it's natural for images of women to be out there because they are really beautiful. Women are fucking beautiful. There are, of course, other issues at hand such as the predominance of certain standards and ideals of beauty, but I don't think it's wrong for either men or women to find nude photos of women appealing. What I wish is that the women were not objectified TO THE EXTENT that they are. I mentioned that I don't think that women are giving themselves away sexually by displaying nude photos of themselves publicly. But it is my impression that men tend to depreciate a woman's integrity (that wholeness they have) once they've seen her 'sexualized.' Not sure that's coming out right. Someone feel free to restate it and, of course, disagree with me.
--- merged: Nov 6, 2013 at 1:12 PM ---
Edit: I would like to also add, that it's not just men who respond in that way to sexual images of women, but some women, too. I do realize that. Think that bears mentioning.

 

In my relationship it alienated me not only from other women, but from my mother. My mother hated him. For good reason. And he used my mother as the prototypical "crazy chick." So I ended up alienating myself from her, too. Classic.

It's so weird to talk about it now because I never saw myself as "one of those women" capable of being essentially brainwashed in that way. But that is the nature of emotional abuse. It starts out as a more subtle manipulation which opens up a pathway to your consciousness where they can then fuck with your emotions because they know your weaknesses. And you don't even know it's happening. I didn't realize it had happened until I was out of it. And there was more to it than just the females issue, but when look back at it now, that is where it started and it started very early on in the relationship.

I get along fine with most men, but I tend to hang out more with women. That said, I don't 'hang out' with a lot of people and those whom I do spend time with tend to have similar attitudes and interests as my own. So it's not as if I'm running to the Orlando Garden Club once a week to hang with the ladies from the suburbs.

 

I don't think it's so much "daunting" as it is "HOLY SHIT I COULD WRITE FOR PAGES ABOUT EACH QUESTION." So, y'know, trying to break it down a little, and being at work doesn't help with that (in my case, anyway.)

On the slut thing: I was the opposite. I was very much raised to believe that "purity" and "saving yourself" meant I was a Good Girl, and girls who didn't do that were trouble. I'm sure my parents were cool with me thinking that (especially since they sort of promoted it), but it also meant that I was afraid/uncomfortable with sex for quite a while after I started actually having it.

I can recall a few times that I was called a slut, even though, at the time, I was either not having sex at all, or had only had one partner. One time in particular-- a group of friends would go dancing at the goth/80s club every Thursday night. I remember I was wearing a black skirt and fishnets, a tank top, and a men's button down over it, buttoned about halfway up. I was leaning against the wall at the top of the stairs, and some guy came out of the main room, looked me up and down, and turned to his friend and said, "this club sucks. Way too many sluts here." And then smirked at me as he walked down the stairs.

If that happened now, I'd just tell him to fuck off, but at the time I was mortified. I seriously fantasized about chasing the guy down, explaining my sexual history (or lack of one, rather), and just....I don't know, justifying myself to him. Looking back, it's kind of obvious that he was a) a jerk, and b) trying to get a rise out of me.

It's just...weird to me, how "slut" gets thrown around. I've nearly eradicated the word from my vocabulary (along with slutty and skanky), because it irritates me so much when other people use them.


Baraka--- I wish I could answer your question, but I don't watch TV, and I don't really watch many films (a lot of stuff I want to see is coming out within the next month, and I will probably see more movies between now and the end of December than I've seen in the last two years combined.)

 

What are your earliest memories of gender awareness?
Very young as a kid. Knew the difference between mom and dad, their roles, nature, etc.
At 8, a girl in class was very sweet to me, never saw her from the next year, remember her name. Her Dad was a photographer. And the same year, my class teacher, I had a crush for her. She was soft, sweet, kind and beautiful. These early impression formed a opinion in me that girls are KIND.

What were the norms for gender in your family and your community?
Well the norms in my family and in my community was a huge contradiction. At home mom was the show runner / Leader. Dad was extremely quiet. The community was very male dominant.

How have your attitudes toward gender been influenced by your personal experiences -
with your parents and family?
Mom was inspiration for hard work, ambition, determination, leadership
Dad was inspiration for co-existence, support, providing, decency
I hated girls who act smart and bold but do not endure any responsibilities.
I hated men who dont provide, not decent, not committed to their family
At 14 almost all day to day responsibilities at home were mine. I took most of decisions like what appliance to buy, from where, which school to go, what subject to pursue higher studies, etc. I think both mom/dad had equal influence on me.

How have your attitudes toward gender been influenced by your personal experiences -
with your friendships?
Never made female friends until college. I developed an opinion that if a girl approaches you, she expects a favor or help. And it used to happen each time. I hated being used. Girls hated me. Couple of them turned to be special friends later. Very special heart-melting affair. One of them was like a sister. Still in touch with them but the bond was lost.

How have your attitudes toward gender been influenced by your personal experiences -
with your romantic relationships?
Girl of my first memory at 8 - Girls are kind
puppy love at 10 - Girls are shallow
girl with a crush for me at 18 - Girls are a deep secret
game I played with a girl at 23 - Girls just use you
in love since 25 - If a girl loves you she will do anything for you.

How do you feel about feminism and how do you express it (if at all)?
No comments. I will only be misunderstood. I am already pretty low emotionally.

What is your relationship with femininity?
It may sound bizarre... I have some femininity in me. I sense my femininity when it is playing me. And I am comfortable with it.

 

I'm glad you weighed in here @Baraka_Guru. I read your link and a bit beyond that.

Without having to refer back to keep names and terms perfectly correct I'm just going to spew a bit about how it feels to be the object of an unwanted lascivious gaze.

The first time a man leered at me was when I was with two less-endowed gf's walking to the nearest strip mall, the summer after I turned 14. He was driving but slowed way down, rolled down his window and hooted at me, then did some disgusting tongue thing. I was completely shocked, startled and then hugely embarrassed. The only reason he did what he did was because I'm stacked and I guess at the time pretty, and going through a slimmer period. I wasn't dressed provocatively but it was summer and it was the 70's so I was in a t-shirt and cut-offs. I felt like I did something wrong to attract that kind of attention and since I had gotten a woman's body in the past year (this was really my first summer in full bloom) I had zero experience with how to handle it.
But boy, over the years have I felt that gaze, women sizing me up--they meet me and instead of looking at my face do the full up and down visual sweep. Men too of course but women bother(ed) me more because it is a competitive thing. They are literally sizing up the competition. It happens way less now that I'm old(ish) and going through what we'll charitably call a chubby period. It won't ever be as bad as it was because I'm not young anymore and that in fact, is freeing.

I wish I took more women's studies classes in uni but I read on my own and minored in media so certainly I see that camera doing the same thing, viewing a women's body from a male perspective. It can be creepy. It seems invasive. And yet, if your goal as the person behind the camera is to appeal to "basic ( baser?) instincts" then you can't go wrong when you get arousal points both from your male and female viewers.

 

When I was 3, I had a dress that looked like a watermelon slice with a matching purse. I loved it, and it's the first time I recall being a girl because I was wearing a dress and my brother and cousins and dad were not. From there, I remember times where my brother and I would sleep over at my grandma's and we would watch TV and eat snacks and my grandma would paint my nails. My brother always wanted his nailed painted, and my grandma would tell him that she would have to ask my dad first, which took me awhile to fully understand.

We had a typical suburban family for the most part, at least when my brother and I were very young. Special occasions meant I was shoved into fluffy dresses that even at 4-5, I hated.

I was in dance for 4 years when I was young, which is a "girl" activity, but my brother was too for two years.

My best friends Lauren and Sarah and I used to play dress up all the time. I had a crate of old gowns and shoes and hats that my parents found at secondhand stores and were passed down to me. I guess my parents were more liberal in the fact that they allowed us to dress my brother up too, so he would be running around the house in dresses and makeup with us.

When I was 12-13ish, I think my mom finally started accepting that I wasn't girly, and accepted my majorly tomboy wardrobe.

When I was in middle school, I played softball while my brother played soccer. We were both on the swim team.

I guess, overall, we had the idea of gender norms in the family, but they were extremely flexible. My brother and I weren't forced into activities that were gender biased, but we participated in what we wanted to. We were both in dance, we both took piano lessons, and we both were in sports.

There was a time where my parents thought my brother was gay (he isn't), and that didn't change how they treated him or how they perceived his gender, so I guess I was pretty lucky growing up.

As stated above, I think my parents and family had a positive influence on my views on gender. Because they didn't force us into "boy" and "girl" activities, I don't view gender as binary boxes. Like sexuality, I think gender can be fluid and exist on a spectrum. I identify as female and have never questioned that, but I'm less "feminine" than many other females, and more "feminine" than others. And I'm sure there are men that identify as "male" that could still be more "feminine" than I am.

My family, while I was growing up and still now, was accepting of us no matter how we dressed or what we participated in, which made growing up easier than a stricter, more traditional household.

I think everyone should be a feminist, at the base definition of females should be equal to males, but like all causes/beliefs/what have you, there are the extreme examples that give feminism a bad name.

I'm a feminist at that base level, and get disgusted by things like this:
-When congress had the meeting about women's reproductive rights and no women were invited to speak
-When a woman wants birth control, she's a slut, when she says no, she's a prude, when she's not a virgin, she's damaged goods, and when she wants an abortion, she's a soulless murderer
-Any form of victim blaming or shaming when it comes to rape cases

I think one of my favorite jokes on this subject comes from SNL Weekend Update (I'm pretty sure. It's been awhile). It is something along the lines of: "If men were the ones to get pregnant, the morning after pill would be sold at every gas station and corner store and come in flavors like 'Cool Ranch' and 'Nacho Cheese'."

In addition, there has been extensive studies recently even in my field (pure science) that women, with the exact same qualifications as men, will be hired less frequently for the same entry level jobs, even when the one doing the hiring is a female. Link to the article. If you have time, read it. It's extremely interesting. : http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/06/magazine/why-are-there-still-so-few-women-in-science.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1& )

So, in summary, I'm a feminist. I am not damaged goods because I have sex, I am not any less skilled in science because I have a uterus. I should not have to monitor my clothes in public because then I might be tempting a man to rape me. I should not be labeled a slut because I use birth control for hormonal balance - not solely as a form of contraception (not that anyone that uses birth control and wants to take control of their body is a slut).

I know I've talked about this in some other threads, but here we go again. Growing up, I was never feminine. Throughout middle school and the beginning of high school, my typical uniform was jeans, a band tee shirt, and converse. I wore some makeup, but mostly because I was self conscious about my bad skin more than wanting to be pretty. I had a few "girly" outfits that I wore out to group dinners with friends, or with a guy a liked. After being assaulted by someone close to me, my femininity dropped off even more, as I was depressed and started to gain weight, but mostly wanted to dissociate myself from femininity and allure as much as possible. When I went away to college and pledged a sorority (which I later quit), I did start dressing more feminine, because I was far from home and wanted a fresh start. 5 of 7 days a week, it was still jeans and a band shirt, but I would try a little harder the other two days, mostly for going out and having fun.

Recently, I've been slowly embracing my feminine side a bit more. I wear more "outfits" as opposed to just clothes. I still look like a scrub most days in the lab, because fuck it, it's school, but I've been trying to up my game on a regular basis outside of school and work. Still nothing pink and fluffy, but more than just jeans and v-necks that came off the "last chance clearance" rack at Old Navy.

 

I fucking love Benetint and it's other brand cousin, theBalm Staniac.

I use this BB cream: (I know you have Birchbox so I'll give you that link) Dr. Jart+ Premium Beauty Balm SPF 45+ | Birchbox

It's a little pricey, but I used my points to get it. We're both pale as fuck, and this matches my skin really well, plus SPF 45 doesn't hurt!

 

From today's New York Times:
"I say that inner beauty doesn't exist. That's something that unpretty women invented to justify themselves."
OSMEL SOUSA, the longtime head of the Miss Venezuela pageant on the popularity of plastic surgery in Venezuela.


Yes, I am a feminist, sometimes a reactionary one.

 

I know it"s not supposed to be this way, but the older I get the less need I have for makeup. When I was 23, I wore a full face of makeup every day ( granted, it was the '80s). Now it's got to be a pretty special occasion for me put on blush and mascara.