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#MeToo

Discussion in 'Tilted Life and Sexuality' started by rogue49, Oct 28, 2017.

  1. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    Who’s next? A moment of reckoning for men — and the behavior we can no longer ignore.

    This is not a debate/discussion for Facebook...but I thought the folks could handle this decently.
    Very emotional...and lots of gray areas.

    I'm glad this is coming about...needs to happen.
    Too much done in the shadows.
    Too many go overboard.
    Too many bad men
    or good men, but bad decisions in the moment.

    But what IS "sexual assault"?
    Are we using it too much?
    Where is assault...to an inappropriate action
    ...to simply the wrong man doing it at the wrong time (it worked before for him..and she liked it ...or ...or ...or)

    HOWEVER women have to admit...
    They also have SAID they want a guy to "take them" at times...take "control".
    The initiation
    The kiss
    The first move
    The first touch
    Sex
    And so on...
    Ye olde Madonna/Whore complex
    To just women'a personal preferences (or even just mood in the moment at that time) -- nothing to do with the man here ...just what SHE wants and desires

    And there is often NO verbal communication...just the momentum.
    I remember a comedy routine of Louis CK where he describes an almost sexual encounter...passionate, raw making out then nothing because she said nothing.
    And he said the woman came up to him the next day...and said why didn't you keep going...I would have loved it.
    And he then says to the audience..."sure, I'm going to 'rape' a woman on the off-chance that she 'might' like it"

    Now, I'll admit...I've been formally accused of it...by my first sex.
    Charges dropped, evolving drinks, she wanted to have fun then get back together with her boyfriend, etc and so on ...very complicated.
    Even now I know some females of the board have now totally changed their minds about me with this reveal (again, I've stated it before)
    Shaped my interactions with women.
    Now I wait.
    Now I prefer they initiate a bit
    Now I want them to STATE it.
    Now I want them to take personal responsibility.

    Even to this day...near 50...a couple of years ago with the first woman after my divorce.
    I ask...we were about to kiss passionately in the parking lot and I stopped and said "do you mind?"
    and the woman looked at me quizzically..."Do you 'have to' ask???"
    Yes I have to ask.

    No I cannot just kiss you because you want it.
    No I cannot just seduce you now.
    No I cannot just massage my way down
    No I cannot just be raw with you without words
    I cannot, I cannot, I cannot.

    Nor can ANY man any more...
    They HAVE TO pause and ASK
    And you HAVE TO have the emotional responsibility to say YES aloud and then let it happen.

    Sorry, you don't get your cake and eat it too

    No instant passionate kisses
    No "innocent" moments
    No RAW encounters in restrooms
    No massages that flow into sex
    No, no, no...and so on...

    Never...not with the first time, not with your "Nth" time
    Not even with you longtime BF, lover, fiancé or even husband.
    He has to ask
    You have to say yes.
    Always

    We're talking rep here...Career...JAIL.

    Yes, I think women HAVE gotten the raw deal for a LONG time.
    And there are TOO many men that have gotten away with it.
    Do not doubt me...I'm very pro woman.

    But I remember what the wrong time, wrong moment, wrong woman, wrong activities did to me.
    My school rep, my community rep, my family rep...my own young emotional wellbeing.

    And I realize that women ARE wronged WAY more than men are wronged.
    Men...have been bad.

    So how do we handle this in society???
    You tell me.
    BOTH sides can be wronged.
    BOTH sides can't just let it "happen"

    What's the etiquette??
    What should men do?
    What should women do?

    This will be a hard discussion...be civil, be considerate.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    Interesting...

    I would have though more would have something to say on such a "red-hot" and trending topic.
    Is it that sensitive??
    Is talking about it that painful?

    Or did I go overboard in my intro? (I can do that...)

    I hope that everyone on all sides can consider the paradigm shift that's going to occur.
    As men get their comeuppance more. (as they should)

    But there are underlying consequences, good and bad (or not "bad"...but let's just say unexpected...or not preferred)
    ...and women realize they need to take a hand in their own consent...and be comfortable with men asking it.

    In the end...it's all about consent.
    Said aloud.
    Both given and taken.
    With full acknowledgment.
    AND still be comfortable coming together as human beings can do and enjoy.
     
  3. MeltedMetalGlob

    MeltedMetalGlob Resident Loser Donor

    Location:
    Who cares, really?
    Short answer for men: Take nothing for granted.

    Of course, I'm one of the last people who should be giving out dating advice, but I used to do something I had no name for, but for the sake of this discussion I'll refer to it as the "inch-forward" technique. Basically, you (figuratively speaking) inch forward and see if you get a positive reaction. Never do you just "go for it". On a date, if I can get the girl to smile, that's an inch forward. From there, can I hold her hand if we're walking/watching a movie in public? If so, that's another inch forward.

    Exactly one-third of all the girls I dated either ignored my hand/pulled away; that's the signal for me to back WAY off- they were strictly hands-off, and I had to respect that. Nowadays when I hold out my arms for a hug from my wife, she either recoils in disgust or walks away. Well, I have to respect that too, even if it sucks. (Maybe respect isn't the word, but "grit-my-teeth-and-roll-with-it" is applicable.) :rolleyes:

    On a less-depressing note, back in 1998 I was on a date with a woman and she (surprisingly) wanted to make out- somewhere before things got out of hand, she whispered that we weren't going to go all the way- I was okay with that (I was still a virgin and nervous as hell anyway) but the whole time I let her call the shots on whatever happened on her couch that night. (She said "yes" to anything I did, because she had done it first to me.) :D
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. *Nikki*

    *Nikki* Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    Stateside
    I have a reply for this but haven't had time to correctly convey what I want to say. I dont agree with some of the things youve said and I'm trying to figure how to explain it in a way you can fully relate to as a man. The problem there is I don't think I can do that, so maybe I just shouldn't respond.

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
     
  5. Lindy

    Lindy Moderator Staff Member

    Location:
    Nebraska
    A couple of years ago my guy (Sig) was out with his buddies bar-hopping and listening to music. And drinking to much, of course. I knew what he was doing, who he was with, yadda, yadda, yadda...
    I sat at home reading, listening to music, and the switched to reading and watching a little porn. And drinking more than a little Scotch whisky. By the time he dragged in the door at 1:00am drunk as a skunk I was crazy horny and about as drunk as he was.
    I planted a big wet kiss on his bleary-eyed puss and was pulling at his belt when he fell backwards onto the sofa. To make a long story short and uninteresting, we spent probably an hour sucking and fucking before we both passed out in the middle of a flagrante delicto makin' whoopee blackout.

    Now, I don't know who sexually assaulted who! We were both way too drunk to give legal consent. Neither of us even thought to ask, anyways. I was the initial aggressor, even though it is generally assumed that the man is the aggressor. After a few years in an intimate relationship, is there such a thing as "implied consent" with ones partner?

    And I spent three years as a stripper. A sex worker. I got patted on the butt and had C-notes stuck in my g-string by drunks whose fingers definitely strayed from their intended target area. I was groped on occasion, no doubt. Kind of goes with that territory. I had my pussy grabbed ala Donald Trump, and also received gentle pats on the buttocks ala George H. W. Bush. I know the difference. I think there's a difference between "inappropriate" touching and sexual assault.


    Alcohol at 7:00
    Passionate sex at 11:00
    Fucker's remorse at 6:00am
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Azharen

    Azharen Getting Tilted

    Location:
    Springfield, OR
    UGH. I keep typing and deleting stuff for a reply. I'm too fatigued atm to weigh in properly. Once I'm recovered from this weekend, I hope to have a cogent response. Until then; I do not condone abuse of any kind to any one. The world can be such an amazing place if the bulk of the people on it can learn to just NOT be a dick.
     
  7. Stan

    Stan Resident Dumbass

    Location:
    Colorado
    We've had similar topics that got fairly hostile, I've got enough on my plate and will avoid an argument these days.

    The last girl I hit on hasn't left yet and that was 38 years ago. She's mostly OK with my faults. I'd assume that I'm fairly ignorant here.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  8. ASU2003

    ASU2003 Very Tilted

    Location:
    Where ever I roam
    As someone who has never been in a relationship, I have to say that this part is too far. I hope it doesn't come to that.

    But, I do think that it is a big problem that doesn't get talked about and prevented. As Bill Maher brought up, it is one thing for Hollywood actresses to speak out, it is another for undocumented workers to speak out, poor women who need their jobs to pay the bills, women who want to make their abusive relationship work for the kids, etc... Are they going to be able to prove something happened, and how long ago? Let alone the dating world where girls feel if they don't sleep with a guy that he will move on, and are more then willing to sleep with some people, then regret it the next day or if it becomes public.

    There are stories of child abuse, but what young girl would put her Dad in jail, and risk the relationship with her Mom and her financial future?

    I do think that the words matter and they are getting used incorrectly. George HW Bush didn't "sexually assault" three women by putting his hand on their butts. If he would have gotten out of his wheel chair, thrown the woman to the ground, pulled down her pants and felt her up, that is "sexual assault".
     
    • Like Like x 2
  9. redux

    redux Very Tilted

    Location:
    Foggy Bottom
    I have been following the issue even before the recent revelations as a result of Trump administration changes in pubic policy for the worse, IMO.

    Obama had implemented two policy directives to address the issues of sexual harassment in the workplace and sexual assault on college campuses. Both were highly controversial with the greatest pushback coming from conservative "family values" organizations and "men's rights" organizations

    On the sexual harassment in the workplace, Obama issued a guidance that bans forced arbitration or "cover up" clauses in companies with government contracts.

    More: Trump Pulls Back Obama-Era Protections For Women Workers
    On the issue of sexual assaults on college campuses, Obama issued a guidance that provided a mechanism for women complaining of sexual assault to have a right to a grievance hearing based on a "preponderance of the evidence" standard (i.e., it is more likely than not that sexual harassment or violence occurred) that requires both parties have equal access to present witnesses and evidence that is consistent with having a hearing in civil cases of sexual harassment or sexual assault.

    Archived: Dear Colleague Letter from Assistant Secretary for Civil Rights Russlynn Ali.-- Pg 1

    A Trump Dept of Education policy will change the "preponderance of evidence" standard to a “clear and convincing” standard (i.e., it is highly probable or reasonably certain that the sexual harassment or violence occurred) making it far more difficult for a woman on campus to even have a grievance hearing.

    While I understand and support the rights of men falsely accused, research would suggest that somewhere in the range of 90% or more of sexual harassment in the workplace and/or sexual assault on campus complaints by women are valid or at least with enough evidence for a grievance process to be in place to hear the complaint.

    IMO, the rescinding of both of the Obama guidance documents are a set back for responding to the significant national problem of sexual harassment and sexual assault.

    Sorry if I got too political. I would be happy to discuss it further, but I have no interest in getting into arguments with "men's rights" advocates.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 3
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  10. ASU2003

    ASU2003 Very Tilted

    Location:
    Where ever I roam
    I kind of thought that the Bill Cosby and Brock Turner (Stanford rape case), along with the "Grab'em by the pussy" comment would have brought this issue up as it is doing now last year. I do worry that the Democrats provided cover for Weinstein and other donors to protect them. All of the unsolicited dick pics on-line and the anything goes attitude hasn't helped either. And I worry that after the election that the powerful would abuse their power, and the younger generation is going to want to become powerful so they can take advantage of the attractive women.

    The Brock Turner case was a big deal for me since his parents home is only 15 miles away from where I live. And I am all for harsh punishment for rape. Much more than 3 months. But, I am just glad that I was never put in that position with a passed out attractive girl. While I wouldn't have raped her, I can't say that I wouldn't have felt her up and "grabbed her by the pussy". And I feel that will be a very hard thing to change across the world. It is also one of those questions that pollsters never ask to see what level of support is there for Trump's attitude towards women.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  11. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    Many Dems and liberals are complicit in their routine neglect and silence in the issue.

    There definitely needs to be a discussion and calling out of wrong doers.

    However, I don’t know if what some are calling “assault”
    Like what Bush Sr. did was “inappropriate” instead??

    Because if we did prosecute for that
    We’d have tons of court cases for both men & women.
    Fictional example, but could happen in real life easy...in Bad Moms, the main character played by Mila Kunis, leaped in with her person of interest to kiss him suddenly.
    He was simply sitting and talking with her. But they hadn’t had a 1st date or started a relationship. And she was intoxicated.
    Now he took the attempt well, was complimented and it was a comedic situation.
    However, if the position was reversed, real life, the recipient shocked and uncomfortable, the doer not attractive to the recipient, etc...
    That would be “assault”??
    No there is some level of scenario.

    Is kissing the same as touching?
    Is touching “inappropriate” parts any different than any other part?
    Is it different if it’s a man doing it or a woman?
    Is intent involved?
    How about if the recipient is NOT attracted to the doer?? (Ugliness count??)
    All of this is accounted or not
    Is it a factor or not?
    Or is the law, the law...with FULL prosecution available to any overzealous or strict cop, prosecutors or judge.

    I think women have been given a terrible dismissal over all these years.
    But where do we go?
    How much is too much and too little?
    Will women have to deal with unexpected consequences??
    And adjust their own definitions and dynamics??

    It’s a very complex situation
    One that DOES need to be addressed
    Question is how??

    Does it need to be the equivalent of the Drug War??
    Or a more subtle method??

    What’s right??
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2017
    • Like Like x 2
  12. cynthetiq

    cynthetiq Administrator Staff Member Donor

    Location:
    New York City
    The Things I Shrugged Off Then, Horrify Me Now
    This article sums up pretty much why I'm mindful of my interactions at the office and out. I took great pains to make myself try to not do it in person. Online is slightly different depending on the location, here it's open to doing so. In Facebook and other spaces, not so much unless they are from TFP.

    All the High-Profile Men Accused of Harassment Since the Weinstein Story Broke
    big names here.

    One year later Megyn Kelly's quote

    "Perhaps he didn't realize the kind of message his criticism send [sic] to young women across this country about how men continue to view the issue of speaking out about sexual harassment,"

    still relevant.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Herculite

    Herculite Very Tilted

    And yet....

    Megyn Kelly defends sexy GQ photo shoot that Donald Trump mocked | Daily Mail Online

    [​IMG]

    http://cdn4.thr.com/sites/default/files/2016/11/161027_thr_megynkelly_s1_0166_2_embed.jpg

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/46/44/4c/46444cb850bdc974362c3041f370dc07.jpg

    [​IMG]
    There is sexual harassment, which is totally unacceptable.

    And there there seems to be "sexual harassment" which means she didn't want HIS attention.

    I'm fully in support of Megyn Kelly, doing a sexy photo shoot, why not? A lot of people enjoy being viewed as sexual objects, I know I do, my wife does too, but then you need to accept to a degree you are a sexual object.

    The problem to me is we have evolved human interaction and evolution, which is heavily biased to sex being all that matters is sexual fitness in the long run, vrs modern work and sensibilities.

    Its a difficult problem and I can't say I can predict the end solution. I think its safe to say, outside of a complete cultural revolution, we won't go to a sexual Laissez-faire where women are left to fend off harassment on their own. I also don't think we will ever get to a point where you have to ask for every sexual escalation in a relationship. I know thats big with the tumblr crowd but most women in my experience wan't nothing to do with that.

    Now I'm biased in that my sexual "escalation" is only with very sex positive women these days, who self select themselves by being at the type of parties I attend. If I were back in the vanilla dating scene though I think I'm a good enough judge of character to find women who of a like mind and I don't have to ask, "can I touch you", "can I kiss you", "may I tongue kiss you", "May I put my hand on your left butt cheek" etc.

    Perhaps thats the real issue at its core for "good" men who sexually harass, poor judgment and a lack of emotional empathy.

    For people like Kevin Spacey, or Harvey Weinstein, there really isn't a conversation, they are simply predators and need to be treated as such.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  14. cynthetiq

    cynthetiq Administrator Staff Member Donor

    Location:
    New York City
    • Like Like x 3
  15. DY157

    DY157 New Member

    Location:
    DFW
    Several thoughts on this topic.

    @rogue49 that was courageous of you to post.

    I may be lynched for saying this but my views on this topic are colored by (and my education on it is largely because of) the fact that I was and am a huge Baylor football fan. For those of you living under a rock Baylor fired our all time most successful coach, AD and university president because of multiple allegations of sexual assault.

    I see shades of gray. Not 50 of them, but still... the one trial that set off the scandal? It was a classic he said/she said, a classic compromise verdict from the jury that’s since been overturned in appeal.

    Having said that, historically there’s been rampant sexual harassment that’s gone unreported and I’m glad it’s being brought to light and is no longer tolerated.

    What’s the solution? Two things: reform sexual assault laws and encourage condoms. Wait...Huh? Yeah, really.

    In most states sexual assault is defined broadly as unwanted sexual touching, and it's penalized as traditional rape. I say traditional rape as forceful penetration against someone’s will with the threat of violence. But in my mind there’s a big difference between someone attacking a woman and raping them in an alley and a consent violation between two people engaged in making out etc... but there’s no difference under the law.
    I’d have sexual assault remain as a crime for “traditional rape” but add a much lesser crime for a consent violation involving intercourse. (You’re at his apt at 3 am but he wouldn’t take no for an answer or took advantage while you were drunk etc...) and add a third lesser crime for an unwanted sexual touching but not intercourse. This reflects that an unappreciated boob grab is not okay, but not the same as being attacked and forcefully penetrated by a stranger in an alley.

    Finally- condoms! It’s a brief pause and an opportunity to say no I’m not okay with this. Guy puts the condom on and re engages, penetration is expected. Right? You don’t have to ask permission to proceed at that point, right? Am I completely off base? It’s been awhile since I’ve been in college or dating.
     
  16. redravin

    redravin Cynical Optimist Donor

    Location:
    North
    Sweden has a rape charge that involves consensual sex when the man takes the condom off during the intercourse and continues unprotected without the women's permission.
    That's one of the charges Julian Assange is on the run from.

    I had been waiting to post anything on this mostly because there is so much that goes into it but the main thing is consent.
    We haven't done a great job of working out how to get and maintain consent (and keep it sexy).
    Throw booze, drugs and teenage hormones into the mix and things are a complete mess.

    I think we really need to stop being such fucking Americans and get a little more European.
    Teach sex ed earlier.
    Make sure kids know how their bodies work and what no means.

    As for general harassment I like Peter White's advice,

    [​IMG]
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    Consent is king
    And no...them not being aware of it and someone acting with intent is not consent. (thanks @DY157 )

    Intent is important too.
    If the condom breaks, accident...you putting a hole in it...intended.

    Being in the act...sorry it can change, no means no...anytime.
    They push you away or off...you wait for a yes again.

    Personally, I'd rather her irrationally resent me than risk jail...or even just "the process"
    If she can't make up her mind or can't say thing confident or clear...you just did me a favor...I'll move on.
    This is why I like women who are comfortable with themselves, no head games, no ambiguity.

    I tried it one more time...hated it. I don't want to convince. Know what you want, say it. (actually this desire of mine even goes beyond the bedroom)
    If you're confused or on the fence...you're not ready.
     
  18. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    I don't know how I feel about this...it almost seems as if this is turning into "Groping Wars"
    Woman Says George H.W. Bush Groped Her When She Was 16: 'I Was a Child'

    I completely believe that women have gotten the raw deal and been ignored way too long or not made to feel comfortable to expose their lewd perps.
    And I'm a big believer in justice.

    However, how long is statute of limitations here?
    Can ANYONE be put on the spot by something that occurred years/decades back? (true or untrue??)
    Is there such a thing as "innocent until proven guilty"?
    The media just puts it out there...then there's a LOT of denial, scrambling, tabloidism, legalities and so on...

    Now, I will say...if there's a pattern...then there's a likelihood
    BUT I also do know in politics, there can be organized "gotcha-groups"

    Everyone is turning out to be a perv now...
    SNL even made a joke about it.

    How much is too much? I know what's too little...and that's where we were in the past.
    Seems like the dam has burst.
    And a lot of people are being taken for a ride...whether they deserve to or not. (and I will say, more than likely they do)

    What's the balance??
     
  19. Herculite

    Herculite Very Tilted

    And be on the run from a totally unproveable rape charge?

    I personally don't think when you teach sex ed has anything to do with it. Added if its about "power" as so many claim than no, it definitely won't stop it.

    With he slew of allegations out now, its hard to determine whats real and whats just an attention seeker. Hell if some woman I dated 30 years ago said I assaulted her, I'd be lucky if I could remember what she looked like. Its just hersay at this point, and some seem to be politically motivated like the last election. Its going to become a "cried wolf" issue at this rate and real abuse won't be believed.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC