more fast and furious

more 'illegal' actions.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2011...w-about-coke/UPI-87601312468705/?spt=hs&or=tn

EL PASO, Texas, Aug. 4 (UPI) -- U.S. officials let the Sinaloa drug cartel smuggle tons of cocaine into the United States in exchange for intelligence about rival cartels, court documents say.
The claim was made by attorneys in defense of Mexico's Vicente Zambada-Niebla, who was extradited to the United States to face drug-trafficking charges in Chicago, the El Paso (Texas) Times reported.
If the claim is true, it could prove to be as damaging to federal investigators as the Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearm's "Operation Fast and Furious," that let U.S. weapons get into Mexico, the report said.
Documents filed in U.S. federal court said the Sinaloa cartel was allowed to bring tons of cocaine into the United States in exchange for information about rival cartels, The Houston Chronicle reported.
The documents also said Zambada-Niebla worked as an informant for the U.S. government while he was a known fugitive.
Zambada-Niebla's legal team wants a U.S. judge to drop charges against their client because his alleged agreement with the government reportedly promised him immunity from prosecution.
Federal prosecutors and the U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency declined to comment on the case.
Zambada's lawyers said as recently as 2008 his client and a top cartel lawyer allegedly met at a Mexico City hotel with two DEA agents, where he was reportedly promised immunity.
In "Fast and Furious," the ATF botched a sting to catch weapons traffickers by allowing a load of illegally purchased guns slip into Mexico. The shipment was lost and some of the guns turned up at crime scenes, including one where a U.S. Border Patrol agent was killed.

 

Do you think it rises to the level of the Reagan administration's complicity with the combined drug smuggling of Noriega in Panama and the Contras in Nicaragua to take out the Sandinistas in Nicaragua?

 

Why does this not surpise me at all? Everytime I turn around, it seems like someone in the goverment is helping out the criminals and dirt bags in some fasion.

 

I think it goes way beyond that.

 

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washin...uns-Operation-Fast-and-Furious-Congress_n.htm

When Uriel Patino walked into a Glendale, Ariz., gun store last August and placed an order for 20 handguns, federal gun agents already knew the 25-year-old man as the most prolific figure in a trafficking ring that was supplying hundreds of guns to Mexico's brutal Sinoloa drug cartel, according to federal court documents and congressional investigators.

Alarmed by the size of Patino's August request, the dealer, who was cooperating with federal investigators, asked the ATF whether a special order for the weapons should be placed because there were only four in stock.
"Our guidance is that we would like you to go through with Mr. Patino's request and order the additional firearms," ATF Supervisor David Voth wrote the dealer in an Aug. 25 e-mail.

 

Really? Wow.

Fast and Furious was a reckless operation that went bad. By most accounts, it involved one office of the ATF. It should certainly be investigated, but as part of the much larger problem of weapons from US dealers making their way into the hands of Mexican drug cartels that was virtually unchecked and growing before the operation and is continuing today, long after the operation was shut down.

The Reagan administration, at the very top, consorted with a foreign government (Noriega in Panama) and with a foreign political organization (Contras in Nicaragua) to illegally import drugs into the US with the funds directed to taking out a popularly elected foreign government in Nicaragua.

added:

Not to thread jack, but you might want to read up on the Reagan administration's illegal actions.....from the National Security Archive

 

yes, really. in case you didn't read the post above yours. It appears that the Obama administration, at or near the very top, consorted with a criminal gang of drug runners known as the sinaloa cartel and agreed to sell them military weaponry while looking the other way as they funneled drugs in to our country. kinda sounds familiar?

 

I dont see the comparison at all.

As I noted, Fast and Furious was a reckless operation of the Phoenix field office of the ATF; hardly "near or at the top of the Obama administration" as opposed to a policy that was directed out of the White House (by Oliver North).

And I also said it should be investigated, but in the context of the larger problem of illegal arms making their way from US border gun stores to the cartels that was out of control before it began and continues today because of the weak laws that make it nearly impossible to successfully prosecute straw purchasers.

If many of those who are so outraged by the operation were truly concerned, they would be supportive of the broader investigation and a serious discussion of the need for specific laws to prevent such purchases rather than politicizing it and reaching beyond the facts to assert that it was an operation "at or near the top of the Obama administration while ignoring the need for such a discussion.

 

you either haven't been following the story and posts from the older board or you're being willfully ignorant because of who the president is.

so, to you, it doesn't matter that the feds were the one causing the problem of arms making their way down to the cartels, just that the feds ensure we citizens can't do it, right? out of control before it began? swallowing the lamestream media bogus 90% 'fiction'?

It's extremely difficult to take you seriously if you can't even acknowledge that the laws already exist for the ATF to stop these suspect multiple purchases, yet purposefully approve of them in violation of the law.

 

I have followed the story closely and how it has been politicized, starting with the Republican chairman of the House Committee who received a classified briefing on the operation well before it began and voiced no concern at the time.

Please tell me what laws already exist that enable the ATF to stop such multiple purchases. Many ATF agents certainly dont agree with you.

Please also provide facts not unsubstantiated allegations that it involved those "near or at the top of the Obama administration" rather than being a failed operation of one ATF field office, hardly operating out of the White House a la Oliver North.

And yes, I am concerned about such weapons making their way to the cartels as they were for years before the operation and continue to do so today unlike those on the right who seem to suggest that such gun running all started and ended with Fast and Furious.

 

For the record, I have stated repeatedly that I think this reckless failed operation should be investigated and those responsible should be held accountable, including the acting head of ATF if he was involved. I say acting head because Republicans in the Senate blocked the appointment of the last two nominees for the position (Bush's and Obama's) at the urging of the NRA.

IMO, any serious Congressional investigation should examine the broader problem rather than the lame attempt (as opposed to your references to lame stream media) to politicize it as has been done by the right.

 

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/a-journalist-s-guide-to-project-gunwalker
http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/a-journalist-s-guide-to-project-gunwalker-part-two
http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/a-journalist-s-guide-to-project-gunwalker-part-three
http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/a-journalist-s-guide-to-project-gunwalker-part-four
http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/a-journalist-s-guide-to-project-gunwalker-part-five

 

And yet, there is still nothing factual pointing to anyone "near or at the top of the Obama administration." Just the same unsubstantiated allegations seen before. A biased analysis by a self-proclaimed gun rights advocate and editor of GUNS magazine doesnt make it factual.

And you still have not provided the laws that enable ATF to stop such multiple purchasers.

Nor have you addressed the facts (not "lame stream media bogus fiction as you claim) that straw purchasing and gun running did not begin with Fast and Furious. We all agree it was a terrible plan to deal with the existing problem. But the fact that it was reckless, dangerous and a failure doesnt eliminate the problem that needs to be addressed.

Why are you so resistant to a broad investigation that seriously examines the problem of straw purchasing and gun running that has occurred for years, including a discussion of the necessity of specific legislation that deals with the trafficking?

Or are you just an NRA mouthpiece believing their propaganda to be factual?

 

i'm hardly an NRA mouthpiece when I believe that NRA should stand for Negotiate Rights Away.

One of the laws that enable ATF to stop such multiple purchases is called the 4473 and NICS check, i'm sure you're familiar with those.

Another would be the Arms Export Control Act.

I'm resistant to a broad investigation examining straw purchases and gun running because the only result would be to further infringe on the peoples right to keep and bear arms, though i'm sure many people could care less about that right, It does mean something to me and i'm pretty damned tired of others feeling that they can do that because they feel it's less important than others.

Fast and Furious started out to be a worthwhile operation. It went bad somewhere and that's what i'd like to see investigated. Instead, we have several democrats, ATF agents, and others who would rather just sweep it under the rug and make more laws that will do nothing but restrict Americans rights.

You also might wish to check out the 'legitimate' news articles. I'm sure you prefer cbs links instead, right?

 

Under current law, purchases of multiple weapons need only sign the form 4473 and state that the purchase is for personal use. As ATF agents will tell you, it is extremely difficult to investigate and prosecute based on a false intent, and even harder to convict, unless the transfer of arms by the purchaser is witnessed.

The Arms Control Export Act does not apply to individual purchasers, but deals solely with transactions of weapons and technologies to other governments.

I dont want anything swept under the rug nor do I want a political witch hunt as is the case with Issa's investigation. I want a thorough and more comprehensive investigation that also deals with gun trafficking that has been a problem for years and will continue to be a problem unless there is a serious attempt to address it in a more direct manner....w/o adversely impact the rights of lawful gun owners.

As I said, I dont consider a biased and slanted analysis by the author with an agenda, a self-proclaimed gun rights advocate and editor of GUN magazine and host of Gun Radio , to be the best source of factual information.

 

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washin...uns-Operation-Fast-and-Furious-Congress_n.htm

When Uriel Patino walked into a Glendale, Ariz., gun store last August and placed an order for 20 handguns, federal gun agents already knew the 25-year-old man as the most prolific figure in a trafficking ring that was supplying hundreds of guns to Mexico's brutal Sinoloa drug cartel, according to federal court documents and congressional investigators.

In the prior 10 months, the federal Bureau of Alcoholl, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives traced 673 area gun purchases to the Phoenix resident, congressional investigators found.

Now, Patino was back for more. And the ATF, eager for the young suspect to lead them to a bigger fish in the rich trafficking ring, was more than happy to oblige, despite concerns raised by the local gun store. Alarmed by the size of Patino's August request, the dealer, who was cooperating with federal investigators, asked the ATF whether a special order for the weapons should be placed because there were only four in stock.

"Our guidance is that we would like you to go through with Mr. Patino's request and order the additional firearms," ATF Supervisor David Voth wrote the dealer in an Aug. 25 e-mail.

The ATF KNEW where these weapons were going and still approved the sale. Don't tell me they didn't have the laws to stop it.

 

I asked you what law can prevent multiple sales and you shot blanks.

Certainly not 4473 which only requires the purchaser to affirm on the form that the purchases are for personal use and would require ATF to catch the purchaser in the act of transferring the weapons in order to charge him with the minor crime of lying on the form; a charge that courts have often refused to convict. And it is not the Arms Control Export Act which does not apply at all to individual purchasers.

So you simply repeat the story and ignore the fact that there are no effective laws to deal with illegal arms trafficking by straw purchasers.

 

The DoJ recently implemented new regulations requiring gun dealers in the border states to report multiple sales of certain semi-automatic weapons like AK 47s (detachable magazine and larger than 22 caliber) to a single buyer within a five-day period....a requirement already codified in law for multiple sales of hand guns.

And the Republicans in the Senate immediately block funding to implement the regs and the NRA sues DoJ over the regs.

While I have made it clear I thought F&F was reckless and ill-advised, it is any wonder the ATF may feel like their hands are tied when Senate Republicans blocked the appointment of the last two ATF directors, existing enforcement programs are inadequately funded, current laws dont address the straw purchasing/trafficking problem in a comprehensive and effective manner and any reasonable attempts to do so are vilified as anti Second Amendment and a gross infringement on the rights of lawful gun owners.

 

I originally posted about this in the old forum as I thought it was a very important issue. I try to stay somewhat current on the topic and read the updated news links listed in this thread.

Do we actually know yet who gave the orders to let these guns walk away? Personally I want to see some charges brought up against someone in the ATF and not just officials getting off easy by resigning from their posts.

 

good luck with that.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-atf-guns-20110816,0,7676977.story

ATF promotes supervisors in controversial gun operation

The three, who have been criticized for pushing on with the border weapons sting even as it came apart, receive new management jobs in Washington.


The three supervisors have been given new management positions at the agency's headquarters in Washington. They are William G. McMahon, who was the ATF's deputy director of operations in the West, where the illegal trafficking program was focused, and William D. Newell and David Voth, both field supervisors who oversaw the program out of the agency's Phoenix office.

McMahon was promoted Sunday to deputy assistant director of the ATF's Office of Professional Responsibility and Security Operations — the division that investigates misconduct by employees and other problems.

this is why we'll never see any change in washington, nor accountability, nor anything other than the gov raining down more restrictions and oppressions on citizens.