Occupy Wall Street

I dont have any problem with the Fordham poll, for what it is, a closed sampling at one location. But what it is not, is a valid poll of the entire OWS movement.

Nor does it take away from the fact that nearly every major poll (those that are more scientific and with standard polling guidelines and procedures) show more support for OWS than the Tea Party.

Or nearly every major poll that show a majority of Americans want the top tax payers to pay more, and want the debt reduced and/or the budget balanced through a combination of spending cuts and revenue (tax) increases rather than just spending cuts, and want the banking/financial services industry regulated.

Gee, I wonder why you dont like those polls.

 

Thanks, cyn. It was hard to tell if it was a canned photo or not. Gasoline and propane tank usage is cause for alarm and I hope they can get their heating issues worked out in a safer way.

It's amazing to me that I still see comments made about anger towards the rich being the driving motivation behind the movement - as if we haven't co-existed with those wealthier than the rest of us for milennia - as if we woke up a few months ago and noticed they were driving nicer cars than we were - as if we decided that we deserved nicer cars too.

Obviously something has changed here and it isn't merely that fact that there are rich people, poor people and those in between. We've never minded if the CEO of our company made triple what we did. We didn't mind his stock options and bonuses. We understood the way it works.

The fact that the CEO now makes 20x what we do because he's found a way to maintain productivity and profitability while abolishing our pensions, our healthcare and our fellow employees isn't even the main issue. Yeah, we can even live with that and have been for quite a while now.

What has changed is the fact that the government we've elected to look after our interests has deserted us. Our government now works solely at the behest of a sector of society that abstains itself from the legitimate democratic process and it does not appear to us that our so called representatives are at all willing to come back.

There is little incentive for them to come back. We are coming to understand this and are recognizing our dilemma. We thought our vote for Obama was going swing things back in our favor but now realize that our vote is as useless as the promises that are made to us in campaign speeches.

This is not about wanting what the rich have. This is about restoring the democratic process. Those of you who don't see this are either not paying attention or are in a position not to be bothered. In effect, you don't really matter anyway.

 

*loves that he doesn't matter because he's in a position not to be bothered*

Then again, I'm not a US citizen and have no reason to give a flying fuck.

 

I don't know about that. I am certainly not one of those Americans who believes the sun rises and sets on the US but I think it's evident that Wall St misdeeds have had an impact, globally. Our ability to right the wrongs should be a global concern, as well. At least for now. At least until we attain 3rd world status.

 

For most of the EU, what you're saying is true. UK especially.

Germany has felt only a limited impact on its economy. The one big sector that was affected was exports since global demand went down the gutter for 2 years.

Unlike other countries, Germany is extremely conservative in its fiscal and monetary policies, and thoroughly regulates its banking sector.

Frankfurt may go spastic should Wall St run into another crisis, but the rest of the country will largely be fine. Much better than the UK or the US would be doing.

 

I feel like it was only a few days ago that you claimed that you didn't believe in polls because your personal experiences were so much more accurate and informative. Now, apparently, polls are the bees knees. I wonder what changed (I don't really wonder at all).

 

so let's see where we now are. after a couple tedious pages of ultra-right trolling 0f the sort that one, sadly, has to expect when people who've nothing to say still imagine its ok to talk anyway. must be some inflated sense of entitlement. my main point about the raid on the park wasn't so much about tripping an abstract debate about relative safety but more about it as an enormously petty action to take place before the first major snow storm of the season. could have happened any time, but no. rationalize it away as you will.

the problem with the percentages meme, 1 vs. 99, is that, like any other meme, it simplifies in ways that obscure as much as they illuminate. the simple fact is that the occupation is geared around undermining the legitimacy of the current plutocratic mode of governance in the united states. this is quite different from some tiresome "blame the 1%" game, which seems the sort of simple-minded horseshit that reeks of fox news. but people see what they want to see, particularly if they don't bother to think real hard and it seems that there's an exaggerated sense of entitlement amongst a lot of people which rests on the assumption that they should have to think real hard. maybe that's why these folk have so much trouble with the occupation. they don't get the extent to which to oppose plutocracy is also to oppose the ideology that enabled it to take shape--which is monetarism, conservative economic ideology, neo-liberalism, "the washington consensus," the lunatic assumption that markets are self-regulated etc etc etc---and its also to oppose the infotainment system that's tailored to the repetitive delivery of simple-minded memes based on simple-minded ideology that serves entirely to justify the continued existence of the plutocratic form of governance---which has the form in some sectors that kir stang pointed to, and in other sectors, like---say---the fda and agriculture another revolving door that links agricorportations to the institutions that are supposed to regulate them, which isn't that different in principle from the main investment firms owning the ratings agencies that are suppose to certify their devices and their corporate standing and, in many cases, the credit-worthiness of states. but it's more than that. and the ideological effects of the occupation are spreading. it's hard to imagine the haircut administered to the european banking system over greece happening without considerable social pressure from below.

i think us conservatives sense pretty clearly that something basic to the world they've been told they built and inhabit is coming apart and there's nothing they can do to stop it because one of the first, long overdue characteristics of that coming-apart is that conservative discourse is no longer relevant.

but perhaps conservatives have an exaggerated sense of entitlement with respect to their own ideology. they think it's necessary and inevitable and produces coherent social outcomes. but none of that is true.

 

People at OWS aren't in danger.
People are endangered at OWS.

Which of these mutually exclusive sentences do you agree with?

 

If I don't follow a given fire code, am I automatically in danger? For example, if a room allows for 250 people in it to be up to code and there are 251 people there, have we gone from not being in danger to being in danger? I'm trying to get you to separate two distinct concepts. I'm not necessarily disagreeing that they might have broken some code, but you said they were in danger and I'd like to get that out of the way before moving on to the fire code because it's an important point. I quoted you specifically saying

I'd like to stop tippy toing aroung this and deal with is so we can move on to the FDNY's enforcement of fire codes, which was the second half of your post way back on page 33.

 

In the wider world, nothing hampers any average citizen from using propane tanks for barbeque grills, gas fireplaces, etc. despite the number of accidents which have occurred. I don't expect the fire dept in my town to confiscate my propane tank because the neighbor next door had a mishap with his during a cookout.

There is no valid assumption to be made that because an accident might occur, an accident will occur or will even likely occur. The best any of us can do is the best we can do to minimize the risk. The safest measure, in this case of course, is to remove all risk but there are other options available to insure safety and still provide the protesters with an adequate source of heat.

To be on the safe side, I could see a scenario where a protester committee of "administrators" could be put in charge of all propane and gasoline usage throughout the area, especially if they had some sort of prior training on propane safety. The fire dept could send in an inspector once a week to add a layer of protection. I would think that should be adequate to reasonably assure that safety was being monitored and adhered to.

Of course, there will always be some for whom this is just not good enough.

 

I like the idea of a compromise. I agree with Cyn in that there is a danger. Will, I think you are arguing because of blind support for OWS. I support them, BUT I believe IF they want to be taken seriously they need to obey ALL laws, period end of story. The people who want OWS to fail are obviously looking for broken laws. You can't fight the man, peacefully, if you act above the laws.

Say what you will it could be extremely improbable, though not impossible, that an accident could happen. A propane tank is literally a bomb. It is a bunch of gas under pressure in a steel cylinder. If something happens, say someone forgets to close the valve, there's a leak, they are mishandled, BOOM. not just fire but shards of metal shrapnel flying everywhere possibly hitting an innocent passer by or a kid that is there. Then who gets the bad press? The city because they allowed laws to be broken???? NO, it gives OWS detractors more ammo and you lose support for being stupid and careless. And with militant haters if unregulated and tanks everywhere, They could be sabotaged. Again, adding (pardon the pun) fuel for the detractors and them saying OWS is a bad thing.

In the end, and you can argue this, the city actually may have saved OWS from a serious, serious potential problem. The question I ask is how can someone who peacefully wants to change the way things are not want to obey the laws? What do you expect the NYFD to just say "oh, its OWS, let them have special treatment?" Is not special treatment of one segment of the population what OWS is trying to fight against, and yet you propose that NYFD should be lenient? WHY? OWS should not expect nor desire leniency in any way. If they do, then the detractors are right, they are spoiled kids wanting what they want and not there for the reasons they proclaim.

 

A reasonable danger? Not necessarily, and not by simple virtue of them being stored or used. Propane and fuel tanks can and are regularly stored and used properly, reducing their reasonable risk (meaning outside of extremely unlikely exceptions) to basically nothing. That's what I'm talking about. I'm trying to figure out if you're just being stubborn or you actually believe these people were at serious risk by simple virtue of having fuel tanks.

A plastic bag can be a reasonable danger if not handled correctly. Assuming they were properly handled, which we have no reason to doubt, do you really believe that OWS was in reasonable danger of a fire or explosion or other fuel-tank related accident? If so, why aren't you lobbying the government to ban fuel tanks? If not, what's the big deal?

"Derp you're the same as Eddie derp!" Jesus, Cynth, you can do better than this.

 

Again, you are asking for special treatment. And truly if that is the case and the OWS crowd is crying about how they deserve special treatment, then, I was admittedly very wrong about OWS and they are as stubborn and narcissistic and self involved with their self righteousness as those they are demonstrating against.

You and they WILL NO NOT NEVER win the support of average people, who have up until now defended the group , if you deem yourselves above the laws that we average dumbed down folk have to follow. Be as self righteous as you want, be all holier than thou and look down your nose at those who say, "hold on, just because you are demonstrating for a righteous reason and MAYBE government is coming down hard on you, you still have to follow the laws." But in being that you are becoming extremists the other way and you are actually becoming that which you hate. Not to mention, you need the moderates to get anything done or you'll just become a group of whiny leftist Tea Partiers.

Again, the city MAY HAVE actually done OWS a favor because in doing this they take away the risk of accident (although you swear it could never happen), accidents aren't called "on purposes" for a reason. Plus, in NYC you have true militant nutcases that could very easily rig a bad propane tank and as I asked above, IF an accident or even an "on purpose" happened, who would get the blame the city for bending laws to suit your needs or the OWS?????

I may be repetitively redundant here but to expect ANY city or dept, to bend the laws to suit your need or to bitch about the enforcement of such laws, is what YOU are supposed to be standing against. You and OWS should know every little ordinance on the book is being looked at right now and OWS is under the microscope. To break a law or ordinance you didn't know about or hasn't been enforced in 50 yrs may seem like a cheap shot BUT it is OWS's responsibility to abide by them and if caught pay the fines and accept the consequences. LET THE PEOPLE DECIDE WHAT IS A CHEAP SHOT FROM THE GOVERNMENT AND WHAT ISN'T. DON'T BITCH STATE FACTS. Abide by the laws and no one can say shit, if the city/state/feds do say something and you've followed the letter of the law then you have a case to bitch about.

It's like going to a restaurant and having a very nice dinner and refusing to pay the bill because you didn't like the service. Did you get served? Yes. Did you like the food? YES. So what was wrong? I was sitting in a seat I didn't like, so I'm not paying. Besides you serve meat here and I'm a vegan. Well, we are very busy, did you wait long? No I got the seat right away. Did you tell the waiter you didn't like where you were seated? No, because you were busy. And so exactly what was wrong? I"m a vegan and you serve meat. Did you know that when you came in, we have a menu outside surely the name Joe's Steakhouse is a clue as to what we serve. I didn't look at the menu and I didn't notice the name. I see, so because of your ignorance you want me to give you and your date a free dinner? Yes. Let's ask the rest of the diners if I should bend the rules for just you, cause they may sympathize with you as they PAY for their dinners.

How many people ya think will say... well they didn't see the menu, they didn't know the name, they never said a word until they got the bill... let them go without paying??? Will you are intelligent. This may have been a very poor example but can you see what I am saying?

All you are doing right now is fracturing support and the Eddies and so on are loving it. You are in effect and I may add very effectively sabotaging your own cause. DAMN.

 

If that's the case, you just hit the jackpot!

 

New York City has been very consistent about enforcing the fire code across the board. They inspect buildings, they inspect construction sites and they inspect other potential fire hazards. In a high-density city like New York, I don't see how there's any other choice in order to safeguard human life.

I'll conceed immediately that this could just be petty bullshit harrassment, which is something that I think cynthetiq has already conceeded as well. What I don't see from the supporters here is any concession that these inspections might actually be reasonable and have a point. If the protestors were dumping raw sewage straight into the storm sewer (they aren't, but I'm making a point), that would be illegal and pose a threat to others as well. I think the protestors, if they want their propane and biodiesel, need to just grin and bear it and make sure that they comply with the requirements, just like any other New Yorker.

 

You're getting ahead of me. I wanted to get this danger issue settled with Cynth and then we can move on to the legality issue, but clearly that's not going to happen so I'll move on.

Legally? Yeah, they're violating codes, codes they probably weren't previously aware of, and the FDNY had every right to go in there and check the place out as is their responsibility. The timing is more than a little suspect, though. OWS has had generators on site for some time, as far as I know since about a day after they moved into the park. The stuff wasn't inspected or confiscated right away, though. They didn't show up to confiscate the generators and fuel containers until the eve of the first seriously cold weather the movement had to endure. I think that more than anything else served as the source of the outrage against the move. Can it be demonstrated conclusively that the move was harassment? No. Still, when taking into account the police response to OWS and what the mayor has said, it's not outside of the realm of possibility.

Moving along, OWS's biggest challenge going forward is going to be keeping momentum going through the winter. If the movement is still growing and vibrant by the Spring, I believe it's probable that the movement will be in a position for rapid growth and to start making more specific demands as the message becomes more and more refined. People are suggesting that this could be the advent of the American Spring, a movement with both roots and other connections to the Arab Spring, which was able to bring about unbelievable change in a short time due to organized citizen dissent via demonstration (and revolution, in some cases). I have to say I agree. I've been trying to get down to the local occupation protest as much as I can, and when they're not having their stuff confiscated by the police, they seem to have a similar feeling about winter being the next big obstacle, particularly in colder areas like New York, Boston, Chicago, etc. Occupations in warmer areas like Los Angeles, San Diego, and even here in San Francisco/Oakland/San Jose might be the key to keeping things going to help out the colder occupiers.

If you're so inclined, people occupying in many places are in need of blankets and fresh food, so anything you can do would be hugely appreciated, I'm sure. Most of the people out there protesting are new to protesting and almost all of them/us are new to occupation as a method of protesting, and there are serious logistical challenges.