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Old 04-04-2006, 02:21 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Canadian Seal Hunt - Barbarism or Not

I wasn't sure whether to post this in the Canadian Section, the politics section, or here.

I picked General Discussion because there would be more members reading it than if it were in the Canadian Section, and although it is definitely political, it seems that it's better suited to General Discussion.

So anyway, The Canadian Seal Hunt.....

It's been going on forever it would seem.

Being a Canadian, I am curious to know how others in other countries view it.

Personally, I find it disgusting in every respect with no rational reason for its continuence. I find the seal hunt to cruel and unnecessary and it makes me ashamed of my country.

Nowhere can I think of an instance where human beings hunt and cruelly butcher new born infants of any species deliberately. Even the most hardened hunter will not shoot the young, or the mothers who are caring for them. Except the Seal Hunt.

There is something just so wrong about killing a newborn.

The Prime Minister and his cabinet do not care since they look at it objectively, seals don't vote. Therefore, why tip up the apple cart.

There are those who feel that seal hunt is either no big deal, or it's a way of life for Newfoundlanders and that they have some God given right to go out and bash baby seals to death. Living in Toronto, I am far removed from seal hunters, or the seal hunt, and I would never ever buy any sort of fur coat, let alone a seal skin coat.

It is in fact ironic that the seal pelts that are taken are sold to Europe and Asia, namely Norway, Denmark, Greenland, Germany, China, Poland, Denmark, Hong Kong, Greece, France, Russia, and South Korea (in order from most to least number of pelts imported).

From my point of view, if you are against the seal hunt, I urge you to boycott the purchase of all seafood products from Newfoundland Canada. The government of Newfoundland will not listen to any other logic, discussion or reason, but the fish industry is worth a lot more to them than the seal industry.

If you oppose butchering baby seals, next time you go to buy a fish product, if it is from Newfoundland / Canada I urge you not to buy that product.
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Old 04-04-2006, 02:27 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Warning:

These sites below are very graphic and contain photos of the actual seal hunt, open at your own risk.

But, this is how it is.

http://www.stopthesealhunt.ca/site/p...PFIqE&b=437193

http://www.harpseals.org/hunt/faqs.html

http://www.ifaw.org/ifaw/general/def...spx?oid=128197

http://www.respectforanimals.org/
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Old 04-04-2006, 02:46 PM   #3 (permalink)
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You know, the funny thing about all those "save the cute seals" websites? They all show the hunting of the white coats, which is ILLEGAL in Canada and isn't done! These websites are no different than the pro-life people who hang out in front of abortion clinics with photos of illegally aborted fetuses.
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Old 04-04-2006, 02:49 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucifer
You know, the funny thing about all those "save the cute seals" websites? They all show the hunting of the white coats, which is ILLEGAL in Canada and isn't done! These websites are no different than the pro-life people who hang out in front of abortion clinics with photos of illegally aborted fetuses.
You're right, the seal hunters do have the common courtesy to wait about 12 days or so, then kill the baby seals.

Doesn't change the fact that we are killing baby animals and rather cruelly at that.

Many are skinned alive, and that is another fact of the barbarism.

And don't change the subject onto abortion, there are plenty of threads about that if you want to make a point.
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Old 04-04-2006, 03:19 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Lets see.....

european settlers kill native peoples, kill their way of life, limit their lands, destroyed basically any traditions and abused them. Yet, some of the few traditions they have left, we have to stop because its wrong. Sorry but one seal hunt a year and one whale hunt also is definately alright by me.
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Old 04-04-2006, 03:22 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Don't care.

As long as the population is healthy, its ok to harvest animals, even cute ones.
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Old 04-04-2006, 03:24 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Personally, I find it disgusting in every respect with no rational reason for its continuence.

I understand you're not happy about the hunt, but you do see the reason for it's ongoing existence, don't you? It's because there is end demand from people who want to purchase the product.

I look at the US war on drugs in a similar light. We spend insane amounts of money, and piss off lots of people in the process, trying to eradicate drugs where they are grown. It's a totally flawed strategy because it ignores the fact that there is tremendous demand for the product. So long as good money is waiting to buy it the market WILL supply it. I think you might get further appealing to the end users, ie those in Scandinavia buying the pelts.
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Old 04-04-2006, 03:39 PM   #8 (permalink)
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The harbor seal population in Puget Sound is kept in balance by the transient (meat eating) orca. I know the transients also frequent BC. Is that not the case in Atlantic waters?
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Old 04-04-2006, 04:04 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eribrav
It's because there is end demand from people who want to purchase the product.
there sure was a big crowd down at the waterfront in St. John's today at the "Fried Flipper and Chip Wagon"
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Old 04-04-2006, 07:36 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Sir Paul just had to get involved, didn't he?

Seal hunting isn't an inherently bad thing. It's a part of our economy and I view it as no worse than the ground beef that's in my freezer or leather jacket I wear every day. The fact is, humans kill animals. We have done for thousands of years. We will continue to do so, because it's what we do. We benefit from hunting seals, so we do it. Where's the ethical problem?

Harp seals are cute, sure. Does that merit them better treatment than the cow that was my dinner this evening?

Economically, there are people who depend on the money they get from this to live. I have no statistics, but neither do I trust those websites which are clearly very biased. I do know that it's said to be a lucrative trade; anecdotal, but what I go by for lack of anything better at the moment.

Everybody gets caught up in the stop the hunt nonsense, yet nobody seems to acknowledge a middle ground. I am not in favour of discontinuing the seal hunts, but I am entirely in favour of instituting stricter controls and regulations on when, where and how they're hunted. I would gladly see my ta dollars go towards surveys and censes to determine just what a sustainable level of hunting is and if the hunters have any sense they would too. If a sustainable level isn't maintained, eventually there will be no more seals to hunt and that benefits no one.

I don't know. Maybe Harper will show some sense on this one, but I'm not holding my breath. Why would he start now?
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Old 04-04-2006, 08:15 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I think it's terrible, especially since these animals are only being used for their skins, and they tend to be at least partially alive when all of this is going on, because bullet holes decrease market value.

I'm generally against hunting for sport and fur. Seems way too frivolous to me.
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Old 04-04-2006, 08:17 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Aboriginals subsistance hunt these seals, and the commercial hunt is under a quota and strictly legislated.

I don't see the problem. Killing a seal is no different than killing a cow, a chicken, or pig. Why are these animals given so much concern? They are not even close to being endangered, they fuel an economy in a dperessed area, and the legal process for killing these animals is quick and humane.

The only reason people are bleeding heart about this is because they are cute and celebrities like to shout about it.
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Old 04-04-2006, 09:12 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skier
Aboriginals subsistance hunt these seals, and the commercial hunt is under a quota and strictly legislated.

I don't see the problem. Killing a seal is no different than killing a cow, a chicken, or pig. Why are these animals given so much concern? They are not even close to being endangered, they fuel an economy in a dperessed area, and the legal process for killing these animals is quick and humane.

The only reason people are bleeding heart about this is because they are cute and celebrities like to shout about it.
1. Aboriginals are the minority of sealers I am sure.

2. The quota is something like 350,000

3. Difference with killing a cow or a pig is that they are actually eaten. Seals are killed rather inhumanely, skinned for their fur, then the carcass is disgarded. They have tried to find a market for seal meat but can not.

4. Newfoundland is not a depressed area, in fact, its economy is going gang busters thanks to off shore oil. In fact, the economy of NFLD grew more last year than any other province, even Albeta.

See for yourself

http://www.globeinvestor.com/servlet...cnw&slug=C2759

5. The reason I shout about this is because they are wild animals being hunted for fur and nothing else and they are not killed in anywhere close to a humane fashion. Plus, they are babies and you don't kill babies. That's just wrong.

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Old 04-04-2006, 09:16 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by streak_56
Lets see.....

european settlers kill native peoples, kill their way of life, limit their lands, destroyed basically any traditions and abused them. Yet, some of the few traditions they have left, we have to stop because its wrong. Sorry but one seal hunt a year and one whale hunt also is definately alright by me.
So, the aboriginals were hunting 350,000 seal pups a year prior to Europeans coming to North America eh?

This has NOTHING to do with a way of life.

Last edited by james t kirk; 04-04-2006 at 09:24 PM..
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Old 04-04-2006, 09:27 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martian

Seal hunting isn't an inherently bad thing. It's a part of our economy and I view it as no worse than the ground beef that's in my freezer or leather jacket I wear every day. The fact is, humans kill animals. We have done for thousands of years. We will continue to do so, because it's what we do. We benefit from hunting seals, so we do it. Where's the ethical problem?
They are killing baby seals that are defenceless.

They are not killing them in a humane fashion.

They are skinning them alive.

They are killing them just for their skin.

There's the ethical problem for me.
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Old 04-04-2006, 09:27 PM   #16 (permalink)
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1. We should not disvalue the aboriginal way of life simply because they are a minority

2. The absolute quota number does not matter as long as the harvest is ecologically sustainable

3. Seal meat is eaten by aboriginals. It'd probably be easier to find a market for seal meat if PETA and the Sea Shepard weren't spreading propaganda.

4. An area can be economically healthy and still have impoverished peoples. Aboriginals and fishers generally are impoverished in Atlantic Canada.

5. Is fur any less valuable a commodity than meat? I would rather use natural materials to make waterproof clothing than environmentally damaging plastic clothing. There is nothing inhumane about the way the seals are killed; 90% are taken by rifle, the remaining 10% are traditional with clubs and hakapiks.

Hunting of whitecoats (harp seals) and bluebacks (hooded seals) has been banned since 1987. Harp seals abandon their young around the same time they start moulting, so would this be similar to the seal being a young adult?
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Old 04-04-2006, 11:12 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Ok, it seems that some of the points made here are deprived from the propagenda machine of eco-friendly group, so let's look at the various myths and the reality of it:

Myth #1: The Canadian government allows sealers to kill adorable little white seals.

Reality: The image of the whitecoat harp seal is used prominently by seal hunt opponents. This image gives the false impression that vulnerable seal pups are targeted by sealers during the commercial hunt.

The hunting of harp seal pups (whitecoats) and hooded seal pups (bluebacks) is illegal – and has been since 1987. Marine Mammal Regulations prohibit the trade, sale or barter of the fur of these pups. Furthermore, seals cannot be harvested when they are in breeding or birthing grounds.

Myth #2: Seals are being skinned alive.

Reality: The most recent Canadian Veterinary Medical Association (CVMA) Report and numerous reports mentioned by the Malouf Commission (1987) indicate that this is not true.

Sometimes a seal may appear to be moving after it has been killed; however seals have a swimming reflex that is active – even after death. This reflex falsely appears as though the animal is still alive when it is clearly dead – similar to the reflex in chickens.

Myth #3: Seals are not independent animals when they are killed – they still rely on their mothers and can’t even swim or fend for themselves.

Reality: Only weaned, self-reliant seals are hunted after they have been left by their mothers to fend for themselves.

The vast majority of harp seals are taken after more than 25 days of age, after their white coat has moulted. Harp seals have the ability to swim at this stage of development. They are also opportunistic feeders and prey on whatever food source in readily available to them.

Myth #4: Countless seals that slip off the ice after being clubbed or shot are lost and never accounted for.

Reality: "Struck and lost" data from at-sea observers as well as the CVMA indicate that this is not true. In fact, the record of struck and loss for the Canadian commercial seal hunt stands at less than five per cent.

For one thing, most of the harp seals taken in Canada are hunted on the ice rather than in the water and this makes losses much lower than in places like Greenland. Second, harp seals that are hunted have very high levels of body fat, making them quite buoyant. That, coupled with the buoyant qualities of salt water, make it quite easy for sealers to retrieve a seal should they slip into the water after being shot.

Myth #5: The Canadian government is allowing sealers to kill nearly one million seals to help with the recovery of cod stocks.

Reality: Several factors have contributed to the lack of recovery of Atlantic cod stocks, such as fishing effort, poor growth and physical condition of the fish, and environmental changes. Seals eat cod, but seals also eat other fish that prey on cod, therefore it is difficult to hold any one factor responsible for the decline in cod stocks.

In addition, there are many uncertainties in the estimates of the amount of fish consumed by seals. The commercial quota is established on sound conservation principles, not an attempt to assist in the recovery of groundfish stocks.

Myth #6: The club – or hakapik – is a barbaric tool that has no place in today’s world.

Reality: Clubs have been used by sealers since the onset of the hunt hundreds of years ago. Hakapiks originated with Norwegian sealers who found it very effective. Over the years, studies conducted by the various veterinary experts, and American studies carried out between 1969 and 1972 on the Pribilof Islands hunt (Alaska) have consistently proven that the club or hakapik is an efficient tool designed to kill the animal quickly and humanely. A recent report in September, 2002, by the Canadian Veterinary Medical Association, had results that parallel these findings.

Myth #7: The methods used to kill seals are far less humane than those used to hunt or slaughter any other domestic or wild animal.

Reality: Hunting methods were studied by the Royal Commission on Sealing in Canada and they found that the clubbing of seals, when properly performed, is at least as humane as, and often more humane than, the killing methods used in commercial slaughterhouses, which are accepted by the majority of the public.

Myth #8: The hunt is unsustainable.

Reality: Since the 1960’s, environmental groups have been saying the seal hunt is unsustainable. In fact, the harp seal population is healthy and abundant. In excess of five million animals, the Northwest Atlantic seal herd is nearly triple what it was in the 1970s. DFO sets quotas at levels that ensure the health and abundance of seal herds. In no way are seals - and harp seals in particular – an "endangered species".

Myth #9: The "hunt" is simply a front for what is actually a cull aimed at reducing the population of harp seals.

Reality: The seal hunt is not a cull. It is a sustainable, commercially viable fishery based on sound conservation principles. In fact, the Department has adopted an Objective-Based Fisheries Management approach using control rules and reference points to establish management measures for the harp seal hunt. This process will facilitate a market-driven harvest that will enable sealers to maximize their benefits without compromising conservation. If the current three-year Total Allowable Catch (TAC) is fully taken, the population will still remain well above 70 per cent of its highest known abundance, found in the latest survey in 1996.

DFO takes a number of factors into consideration when establishing TAC levels for harp seals, including – ice conditions, pup mortality, natural mortality, incidental harvest or by-catch, the Greenland and Arctic hunts and commercial harvest levels.

Myth #10: The seal hunt provides such low economic return for sealers that it is not an economically viable industry.

Reality: The landed value of seals was $16 million in 2004. Pelt prices as high as $70 have recently been recorded. Seals are a significant source of income for some individual sealers. The money is earned over a very short period. Sealing also creates employment opportunities for buying and processing plants.

While sealing income may seem negligible by some US or European standards, sealers themselves have stated that their income from sealing can represent from 25-35 per cent of their total annual income. Sealing also represents benefits to thousands of families in Eastern Canada at a time of year when other fishing options are unavailable or limited at best, in many remote, coastal communities.

Myth #11: The Canadian government provides subsidies for the seal hunt.

Reality: The Government of Canada does not subsidize the seal hunt. Sealing is an economically viable industry. All subsidies ceased in 2001. Even before that time, any subsidies provided were for market and product development, including a meat subsidy, to encourage full use of the seal. In fact, government has provided fewer subsidies to the sealing industry than recommended by the Royal Commission on Sealing.

Myth #12: The seal hunt is not worth it - seals are only taken for their fur and the rest of the animal is wasted.

Reality: Seals have been harvested for food, fuel and shelter and other products for hundreds of years. The subsistence hunt is a valuable link to Canadian cultural heritage. Canada exports seal products in three forms: pelts, oil and meat. Traditionally, the pelts have been the main commodity, but production of seal oil for human consumption has grown substantially in recent years. Seal oil markets remain positive, and a large percentage of seal oil is finding its way into areas other than traditional marine and industrial oils.

DFO encourages the fullest use of seals, with the emphasis on leather, oil, handicrafts, and in recent years, meat for human and animal consumption as well as seal oil capsules rich in Omega-3. Any seal parts that are left on the ice provide sustenance to a wide variety of marine scavengers such as crustaceans, seabirds and fish.

Myth #13: The seal hunt is loosely monitored and DFO doesn’t punish illegal hunting activity or practices.

Reality: The seal hunt is closely monitored and tightly regulated. Canada’s enforcement of sealing regulations is thorough and comprehensive. Regulations and licensing policies stipulate hunting seasons, quotas, vessel size and methods of dispatch. Fishery Officers monitor the seal hunt in numerous ways to ensure sealers comply with Canada’s Marine Mammal Regulations. They conduct surveillance of the hunt by means of aerial patrols, surface (vessel) patrols, dockside inspections of vessels at landing sites and inspections at buying and processing facilities. In 2004, Fishery Officers spent approximately 8600 hours monitoring and enforcing the hunt. In the last five years, 94 charges were laid and convictions were upheld in 57 of those cases.

Sealers are well trained in humane hunting methods and are, as a group, responsible and law abiding. Assumptions that large numbers of sealers are violating the laws and regulations governing the hunt are unfounded.

Myth #14: If sealers take more than their allotted quota, DFO simply further raises the quota for them.

Reality: The Government of Canada has strict conservation measures in place, and is committed to the careful management of all seals to ensure strong, healthy populations in the years to come. 2005 is the last year of a three-year harp seal hunt management plan. The harp seal TAC was set at 975,000 for 2003-2005 and it has not been raised. This multi-year management plan was developed in consultation with more than 100 stakeholders, including conservation groups, at the 2002 Seal Forum in St. John’s, Newfoundland and Labrador.

There have been two instances when TACs were allowed to be exceeded to allow sealers disadvantaged by environmental conditions to have an opportunity to seal after good hunting in other areas had allowed the full TAC to be taken early.

These decisions were made only because the increased hunting would not jeopardize conservation and sustainability.

Myth #15: Anyone can get a licence – even those who have never hunted before, and there are no training requirements.

Reality: Before sealers can qualify for a professional licence they must obtain an assistant licence and work under the supervision of a professional sealer for two years. Individuals applying for a personal use licence must demonstrate they apply good sealing practices to ensure the seal is killed in a quick and humane fashion. Personal sealing licences will only be issued to individuals who had a licence, a valid hunter’s capability certificate, or big game licence the previous year and who have attended a mandatory training session.

Myth #16: The majority of Canadians are opposed to the seal hunt.

Reality: Animal rights groups currently campaigning against the seal hunt cite a 2004 Ipsos-Reid poll stating that 71 per cent of Canadians are opposed to the hunt. In fact, Canadians support federal policies regarding the seal hunt. An Ipsos-Reid survey conducted in February 2005 concluded that 60 per cent of Canadians are in favour of a responsible hunt. The survey methodology and results of this poll are available on request.


Now that myths are separated from facts, discuss
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Old 04-05-2006, 12:10 AM   #18 (permalink)
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I wrestle with this issue every year that it comes up. Feelgood took most of the work out of it for me by posting the facts of the matter. I researched most of that stuff a few years ago when I really started to think about what I thought about the hunt.

To date, I still haven't come up with an opinion either way. It does seem cruel, but I would argue that the way veal calves are raised is more cruel.

I think my problem is logic versus emotion. By looking at the facts, as posted above, it's hard to argue that there is much wrong with the hunt. Economically and ethically, it seems justifiable. That said, even though the method of killing is as humane as possible, it still nags at me. Perhaps it's because personally, I do not benefit from the killing of the seals. I benefit from other animals being killed for my benefit, since I eat them, but I don't eat seals or use their pelts.

I don't think I'll ever be able to develop an opinion on the matter one way or the other. Perhaps if someday the hunt, or lackthereof, affects me, I'll feel more strongly one way or the other.

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Old 04-05-2006, 02:17 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Cute, baby animals should not be afforded any difference in treatment from ugly, old animals. There is no difference.

There is no bloody difference in killing a baby animal, vs. an adult animal. None whatsoever. Defenselessness is a moot point at best- because then you're basically saying if the animal fought back a bit more, or was harder to kill, then it would be ok. Nonsense. People just go crazy any time a baby anything is the center of an issue.

Also, I've never seen the point in saying, "we use more of this animal if we kill it, so it's justified" when referring to cattle or pigs. You're still killing it. I don't care if you use every last ounce of the damn thing, it's dead. It's not less dead because you also ate its cooked flesh in addition to using its skin, or vice-versa. This is why there is no sense in the "only the pelt is used" argument for stopping it. Death is death.

Last edited by analog; 04-05-2006 at 02:21 AM..
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Old 04-05-2006, 04:34 AM   #20 (permalink)
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For all you people who are posting about how the seals are killed (or skinned alive) for their pelts only, I challenge you to come to Newfoundland and look in my corner store at all the seal products for sale here! Come to the waterfront and visit the fried flipper wagon! Come to the local pub and get some seal flipper pie!
Everyone goes on about how cute the baby seals are, but baby lambs and calves are cute too. And no one seems to give a rats ass that they are born in confinement in pens so small they can't turn around, just to make their meat more tender.


link to article about this photo:
National Inuit Youth Council
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Old 04-05-2006, 05:07 AM   #21 (permalink)
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I seriously disapprove of poaching but that is not what we're talking about. I found a poached deer once where only the antlers were taken. That kind of ingratitude for what was lost when the animal died is selfish and despicable.

The legal harvesting of seals for food and clothing seems to me to be quite acceptable. Especially when more than one part of the animal is used I see it as survival more than greed. I also noticed that most of the primary countries to which these furs are exported are north of the 45th parrallel. Do you realize how cold it can get at times there? I have gotten the best insulated coats to gaurd against the winds and cold and I also have fur coats. You know what keeps me warm the best on the coldest days?? FUR. Sheepskin, rabbit fur, or seal. Seal is also very water resistant which makes it excellent on those days with wet snow falling. My mother had a sealskin coat most of the time that I was growing up and she wore it nearly everywhere. She still has it 28 yrs later. The fur did not shed as would a deerskin or bearskin. The coat is still extremely warm even on cold days. To those who aren't vainly fashion conscious the sealskin coats have many more benefits.

I would be very surprised if seals were truely skinned alive. I imagine that once in a great while one might come to that was thought dead but it's not intended to work out that way. Have you ever tried to skin a critter while they're alive. It's a lot more work than skinning a dead one. Even if you are that carefless why put yourself through more work.

feelgood - I found your post very interesting. thankyou
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Old 04-05-2006, 05:28 AM   #22 (permalink)
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For those of us in Canada, CBC Newsworld is broadcasting on Saturday, April 8 at 10pm Eastern Time, the award winning documentary "My Ancestors were Rogues and Murderers" about the Newfoundland seal hunt. Here is the link to the site :CBC Newsworld
I haven't seen this documentary yet, but I hear that it's quite graphic and pulls no punches about revealing both sides of the seal hunt debate.
Here is also a link to the National Film Board of Canada's site about the film "My Ancestors Were Rogues and Murderers" where you can see a surprisingly moving trailer for the film: National Film Board of Canada
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Old 04-05-2006, 05:41 AM   #23 (permalink)
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One day I'd like to go on a seal hunt. theres just something about looking at baby seal in those big brown eyes and then bashing its skull in with a club.

-seriously
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Old 04-05-2006, 07:15 AM   #24 (permalink)
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It is a shameful practice - tradition or not.

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Old 04-05-2006, 12:16 PM   #25 (permalink)
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astrahl, you don't think that quote might be a little biased, coming out of a culture where cows were revered above certain "types" of humans?

or in other words: You can always find some kind of quote to lend weight to your argument.



For me, there is no difference between killing a cute animal and an ugly one. It's done to make money, to use as much as possible of the corpse (duh, more money), as quickly as possible (why tire yourself out more than needed? In the end that just means less money.) in a regulated fashion and on a species that is far from endangered.
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Old 04-05-2006, 01:00 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I think the whole thing is blown out of proportion;

Think about the circumstance of the seal hunt:

You can't 'trap' them and then take them to a slaughterhouse. You do the damage right there on the ice.

Ice is white in colour, as are the baby seal skins (prior to the ban. Work with me here, I am working on imagery). The colour of blood is RED. The dramatic nature of spilling blood on a white surface is shocking.

Look at a seal on ice. They look cumbersome, almost helpless. This lends weight to the "Defenceless" nature of the situation.

This hunt only happens for very short periods in isolated and predictable locations. The people opposed to "Hunting", "Animal Cruelty", "Slaughter of the Innocents" et al. benefit greatly from the logistics in this case. Think about it... Is it easier to get pissed off at a predictable time and place? Hell yes. I can buy plane tickets, acquire lodging, prep for the weather and even pack a lunch. Killing deer occurs everywhere, and over a much longer period of time.

If you go down to South America and try to protect the rainforest, you will see a different side of humanity. You lay down infront of a bulldozer, they will fucking run you over. You yell and scream at farmers that are clear-cutting the Old Canopy trees? They might just kill you. The seal hunt is protester heaven; This is Canada, where our jails are better than some high-end condos in South America. You can scream all you want, we won't retaliate. The physical environment keeps the protesters safe, as they are seperated by boats. Sure, you may get seal guts thrown at you or your boat rammed by another boat, but you don't have to put your LIFE ON THE LINE. It is a very sexy protest.

Why this animal? Why this hunt? What is the fundamental "No Way, not if I can stop it" that occurs here?

1. cute victim
2. Only fur is taken.
3. Imagery is savage, red on white
4. defenceless "nature" against unforgiving man.
5. Easy to protest, logistically.
6. Seal fur is not seen as a "Necessary Good", such as other foodstuffs (Beef, Pork, Chicken)
7. Repercussions are very minor (This is Canada, after all).

Hey, you want to protest the seal hunt? I am calling you lazy. You are a lazy protester that is taking the easy moral high ground. You want to impress me? Try and save a rain forest. Save a snail that is endangered by land developers. Take the cameras to a veal processing plant, and tell everyone not to eat veal. Take an unpopular stand in popular times. Do something that others aren't.

If Paul McCartney shows up to your protest, you need to find a more radical cause.
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Old 04-05-2006, 01:19 PM   #27 (permalink)
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I have no problem with it whatsoever, especially after feelgoods post. While I am not an avid hunter, I have hunted, and continue to enjoy to do so. Were I to seal hunt, I would probably opt for the rifle, but in the end, I don't see a problem with either.

The veal point is a good one, because before veal became more expensive than straight beef, it was simply a bi-product of the dairy industry... Thats right, every time you hoist a glass of milk, you are representing baby cows killed so they could harvest milk from the mothers!

That doesnt seem to bother us much, why should this?

Besides, if the imagery of the baby seal blood on ice bothers you so much, try field dressing a deer in the winter in NY... Hell, lol, to do that, you reach your whole arm up into the inside of the deer to cut the trachea/esophogous... Doesnt bother me at all.

Last edited by krwlz; 04-05-2006 at 01:23 PM..
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Old 04-05-2006, 01:58 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feelgood
Ok, it seems that some of the points made here are deprived from the propagenda machine of eco-friendly group, so let's look at the various myths and the reality of it:

Myth #1: The Canadian government allows sealers to kill adorable little white seals.

Reality: The image of the whitecoat harp seal is used prominently by seal hunt opponents. This image gives the false impression that vulnerable seal pups are targeted by sealers during the commercial hunt.

The hunting of harp seal pups (whitecoats) and hooded seal pups (bluebacks) is illegal – and has been since 1987. Marine Mammal Regulations prohibit the trade, sale or barter of the fur of these pups. Furthermore, seals cannot be harvested when they are in breeding or birthing grounds.

Myth #2: Seals are being skinned alive.

[
snip...

a licence, a valid hunter’s capability certificate, or big game licence the previous year and who have attended a mandatory training session.

Myth #16: The majority of Canadians are opposed to the seal hunt.

Reality: Animal rights groups currently campaigning against the seal hunt cite a 2004 Ipsos-Reid poll stating that 71 per cent of Canadians are opposed to the hunt. In fact, Canadians support federal policies regarding the seal hunt. An Ipsos-Reid survey conducted in February 2005 concluded that 60 per cent of Canadians are in favour of a responsible hunt. The survey methodology and results of this poll are available on request.


Now that myths are separated from facts, discuss


I would appreciate knowing the source of this?

What pro Newfoundland Seal Hunt website?
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Old 04-05-2006, 02:08 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james t kirk
What pro Newfoundland Seal Hunt website?
Lol, I just have to laugh at this, you cast an obvious feeling of disdain, and inaccuracy upon his information, and the "Pro Newfoundland Seal Hunt website", while quoting and even linking anti-hunt websites.

The most accurate information would be had at a nuetral, official website, and yet you seem to think that the anit-hunt websites spout the truth, while holding that the pro-hunt website would be spouting insidious lies, and half-truths.

I dont want to read too much into the simple statement, but you can't have it both ways.
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Old 04-05-2006, 02:12 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CandleInTheDark
1. We should not disvalue the aboriginal way of life simply because they are a minority
Since when is the seal hunt an "aboriginal way"

And that would be fine if the aboriginals were living a lifestyle similar to what they were doing 500 years ago, but the fact of the matter is that if anything, they are simply using the fact that they are aboriginal to skirt around conservation rules and regulations. They (the aboriginals) are making this an industry for themselves. Plain and simple it's about money.

You can't tell me that aboriginals were killing 350,000 seal pups 500 years ago.

Nice try.

Same with the lobster fishing in NB. It's very lucrative and easy and the natives want to just go in there win abandon and throw regulation into the wind and make all the bucks they can.



Quote:
Originally Posted by CandleInTheDark
2. The absolute quota number does not matter as long as the harvest is ecologically sustainable
15 years ago, the seal hunt was wiping out the seal population and had to be called off before Tobin reinstated it.

How is it that you feel that this is ecologically sustainable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CandleInTheDark
3. Seal meat is eaten by aboriginals. It'd probably be easier to find a market for seal meat if PETA and the Sea Shepard weren't spreading propaganda.
They don't eat that much seal meat. 99% of it gets tossed overboard.

Even the pet food companies don't want it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CandleInTheDark
4. An area can be economically healthy and still have impoverished peoples. Aboriginals and fishers generally are impoverished in Atlantic Canada.
Time to move to somewhere that's not impovrished.

Last time I read, Tim Hortons in Calgary was paying $14.00 per hour cause they can't keep people.

I'm sorry, but economies change. Used to be a huge market for horse buggy manufacturers, but the automobile pretty much ended that. If you don't want to end up in the cold, you find a different line of work.

I get tired of hearing people think that they are somehow entitled to live in a certain way and in a certiain place and that the world should bend around them.

As far as I am aware, NFLD has a huge off shore oil thing happening right now, as well as a nickel thing. Danny Williams was in the Globe and Mail today writing about the booming NFLD economy and the offshore oil bonanza.

Impovrished?

Not unless you want to be.



Quote:
Originally Posted by CandleInTheDark
5. Is fur any less valuable a commodity than meat? I would rather use natural materials to make waterproof clothing than environmentally damaging plastic clothing. There is nothing inhumane about the way the seals are killed; 90% are taken by rifle, the remaining 10% are traditional with clubs and hakapiks.

Hunting of whitecoats (harp seals) and bluebacks (hooded seals) has been banned since 1987. Harp seals abandon their young around the same time they start moulting, so would this be similar to the seal being a young adult?
The seal pups are killed at 12 days and up. At that time, they can not swim and make easy targets for the Earls on the ice.
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Old 04-05-2006, 02:17 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krwlz
Lol, I just have to laugh at this, you cast an obvious feeling of disdain, and inaccuracy upon his information, and the "Pro Newfoundland Seal Hunt website", while quoting and even linking anti-hunt websites.

The most accurate information would be had at a nuetral, official website, and yet you seem to think that the anit-hunt websites spout the truth, while holding that the pro-hunt website would be spouting insidious lies, and half-truths.

I dont want to read too much into the simple statement, but you can't have it both ways.
Actually you are wrong there mon ami.

All of my posts are my own writing, I have not cropped any information from any antiseal hunt websites, other than the countries to which purchase the pelts.

I have posted the links to the sites in my second post, but I have not cropped info from any of them.

Not one bit.

Each and every one of my posts are my own thoughts. (You can tell by the rambling style that jumps all over the place.)

The post I am questioning is way too smooth for a lay person to have written. Either the person writing the post is intimately connected with the NFLD seal hunt at a high level (it's his job) or he's cropped the info without giving credit to where it came from because it's a biased site.

He's quoted polls, he quoted DFO, vetrinary associations, etc. This is not a layman's post.

That's why I asked the question.

Last edited by james t kirk; 04-05-2006 at 02:21 PM..
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Old 04-05-2006, 02:20 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Point proven.

Our friend has indeed cropped his information from a prosealing government website without giving credit to that site and presented the arguements as his own.

Way too smooth to be his own thoughts.

http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/media/infom...005/im01_e.htm

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Old 04-05-2006, 02:32 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Dude, it is a government site;

That gives the argument merit and weight in my book;
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Old 04-05-2006, 03:18 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eribrav
I understand you're not happy about the hunt, but you do see the reason for it's ongoing existence, don't you? It's because there is end demand from people who want to purchase the product.
This makes no sense to me. There are many many things people want to purchase and cannot. That is no reason to do something. People want illegal drugs, but they are illegal. Demand is not enough reason for supply.

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Old 04-05-2006, 03:21 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevo
One day I'd like to go on a seal hunt. theres just something about looking at baby seal in those big brown eyes and then bashing its skull in with a club.

-seriously
I think you need therapy.
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Old 04-05-2006, 03:30 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *Nikki*
This makes no sense to me. There are many many things people want to purchase and cannot. That is no reason to do something. People want illegal drugs, but they are illegal. Demand is not enough reason for supply.

Actually, demand IS enough reason for supply. You can try making something illegal (oh, let's say alcohol during Prohibition). Did that cause demand to dry up? No. It just made people turn to alternate sources for their booze. Folks like the Kennedys were there to supply the product outside of official channels. If the demand exists, and people are willing to pay good money for the product, then supply will follow. Just like the drugs example you cite. Has illegality done anything to stem the supply of drugs? Is there a city in the US where you CAN'T buy drugs readily?

If you want to alter the harvesting of seals in an effective manner, you need to sway the opinion of those who are users. If you want to cut drug usage, you have to get the users to stop wanting to use. So long as they want it and are willing to pay for it, the supply will keep coming.
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Old 04-05-2006, 05:14 PM   #37 (permalink)
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The easiest thing to do is ban the hunt for a while, then come back and take pictures of all those cute white baby seals starving to death due to over-population.

BUT, because I happen to like animals, I prefer population management.
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Old 04-05-2006, 05:37 PM   #38 (permalink)
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As someone who has eaten dog, turtle, kangaroo, insects, squirell, snake, badger, and a whole mess of other things, all I have to say is this: so long as the animals are killed with absolutely no pain and are not in danger of extinction, go ahead and do it. There has to be a way to be able to show empathy towards animals, and yet be able to survive by eating them. Do what I do; thank the animal before you eat it. I say a prayer thanking God, the hands that prepared the meal, and the animal before I eat it.

Is it any good? High fat mammals usually have extremly savory and delicious meat. I would think it could be good with a cherry or peach sauce, but I couldn't be sure until I could prepare it myself.
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Old 04-05-2006, 08:05 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james t kirk
Point proven.

Our friend has indeed cropped his information from a prosealing government website without giving credit to that site and presented the arguements as his own.

Way too smooth to be his own thoughts.
The fact that he didn't (perhaps he forgot) cite his source does not make the facts presented any less valid.

And I agree with BigBen that the validity of the source can be trusted.

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Old 04-06-2006, 04:45 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Do any of you people who are posting in this thread live in Newfoundland? No.

Do I live in Newfoundland? Yes.

Is there seal meat and other products like seal oil, for sale here? Yes (thereby disproving the myth that seals are killed solely for their fur).

There is a lot of talk about how cute the baby seals are. However two points to keep in mind:
1. They are born in the wild and have a decent chance for survival.
2. Calves and Lambs destined to be eaten are born and placed in cages where they can't turn around, all designed to keep their meat as tender as possible. Where is Paul McCartney protesting this practice?

There are people in the remote settlements in Northern Newfoundland who depend on the seal hunt to make it throught the winter without resorting to Government assistance.

Yes, there is offshore oil here and the economy is booming, but most of that money stays in St. John's and doesnt make it into the outports.

One other point to keep in mind, Sealing is a dangerous thing to do, and there are a lot of men who, after risking their lives day to day in the fishing, go out on the ice sealing. they don't do it because they like killing seals, they do it because they want to support their families, and this is the only way they can do it. It's what their fathers and grandfathers did.
Keep in mind, that a lot of the remote settlements aren't like your neighbourhood, where they can run to the 24 hour supermarket if they run out of milk.
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