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Old 04-20-2006, 05:33 AM   #1 (permalink)
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He has 10 wives, 64 children, and a jail sentence for rape.

Here we go,

quote: http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3642085a12,00.html
Quote:
Father of 64 jailed for raping daughters
20 April 2006

SINGAPORE: A Singaporean Muslim man with 10 wives and 64 children was sentenced to 32 years in jail and a caning for raping five of his under-age daughters, court documents showed.

The 45-year-old man, who cannot be named in order to protect the identity of his daughters, was sentenced after he pleaded guilty to five charges of rape and admitted to another 34 charges, including rape and attempted aggravated rape.

"The numerous rapes in this case were systematic and sickening," said High Court Judge Tay Yong Kwang in the judgment.

"The mothers of the young girls had somehow been persuaded by the accused that what he was doing was right. That deprived the daughters of one escape route that they could have taken – that of approaching some adults whom they trusted to confide in them their predicament."

The court sentenced him to 24 strokes of the cane.

According to the court documents, the man said he was a qualified religious teacher. During a religious class, he told his wives and daughters that, according to the Koran, he had complete ownership over his children as a father, including the right to have sex with them.

The wives then acted as his messengers, telling their daughters to meet their father in his bedroom whenever he wanted sex over a period of 18 months.

Two of the teenage daughters became pregnant and had to have abortions. The eldest daughter, who is now 16, went to the police last June to report the rapes.

In his mitigation plea, the man said he had found his older daughters "behaving inappropriately" with boys and he thought that "if he could satisfy the sexual needs of his daughters, they would be less likely to engage in sexual activities with boys".

The man, who ran a transportation business, had four legal wives and six contractual wives – an arrangement whereby a Muslim couple enters into a union for a fixed term. His 33 sons and 31 daughters range in age from 9 months to 16 years.

Singapore's multiracial population is about 77 per cent ethnic Chinese, 14 per cent Malay, 8 per cent Indian, and 1 per cent Eurasian. Muslims are allowed to have a maximum of four wives. Contractual marriages are not recognised and are invalid.
Ridiculous, raping because he believes that the child is *his* and that he has the right to have sex with them?

Ah, and I'm sure this is just for the lawyers to have something to work on :

In his mitigation plea, the man said he had found his older daughters "behaving inappropriately" with boys and he thought that "if he could satisfy the sexual needs of his daughters, they would be less likely to engage in sexual activities with boys".

Before I submit this, I must say that this is deviated from Muslim religion. Muslim does not condone this behaviour as far as I know, so you shouldn't be discriminating the religion, but rather the person.
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Last edited by itch vaccine; 04-20-2006 at 05:34 AM.. Reason: typo on *to*, who would've guessed?
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Old 04-20-2006, 06:29 AM   #2 (permalink)
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It's amazing the excuses that abusive people will go to in order to make their victims feel obligated to oblige or be guilt tripped into silence. It's disgusting that a man would do this. He obviously had quite a large sex drive to end up wtih 64 children. That's just wow.

I'm surprised at the mothers. Looking at it from the perspective of an American woman I cannot imagine it even being possible to be so completely brainwashed as to cooperate with that. There has to be something in the culture or in those women's background that has taught them to be completely helpless with regards to anything their husband chooses to do. It's wrong, so terribly wrong. I want to hate him and anyone to brainwashed those women to cooperate so fully.

That 16 yr old girl has guts. If she could see the error in the situation then how could her mother not see it. I hope she can move past this and is not pushed down again and made subservient to another hateful man like her father.
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Old 04-20-2006, 06:40 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itch vaccine
Before I submit this, I must say that this is deviated from Muslim religion. Muslim does not condone this behaviour as far as I know, so you shouldn't be discriminating the religion, but rather the person.
Yeah before we touch this one, lets just clarify, this is some psycho wingnut. Not the global ambassador of the Muslim Nation.

And no, he is not a terrorist. Thank you for listening.

I have to agree with Reanna that it took some serious balls to step forward and bring the situation to light. Her doing so most likely permanently ostracized her from her family and she will need to rebuild her life from scratch.
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Old 04-20-2006, 07:12 AM   #4 (permalink)
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The court sentenced him to 24 strokes of the cane.
WTF kind of sentence is this?!? Yeah, that really conveys the outrage of the court.

Kudos to the daughter, I know that takes amazing strength.
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Old 04-20-2006, 07:17 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I'm glad we had it pointed out he wasn't a typical musslim, I might have been confused.

I wonder if we would have had the same types of responses if he were Mormon
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Old 04-20-2006, 07:27 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sultana
WTF kind of sentence is this?!? Yeah, that really conveys the outrage of the court.

Kudos to the daughter, I know that takes amazing strength.
24 strokes of a cane is pretty intense...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning_in_Singapore

Remember that idiot american kid, michael fay, who was sentenced to 4 strokes of the cane for vandalism -- i dont remember the exact number of lashes, but over a certain number it can cause death...

i
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Old 04-20-2006, 07:32 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sultana
WTF kind of sentence is this?!? Yeah, that really conveys the outrage of the court.
Actually, it does, in a way. 24 strokes is the maximum physical punishment allowed. Don't forget the 32 years of prison as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caning - Wikipedia
Judicial caning, carried out with a long rattan rod, was a feature of some colonial judicial systems, particularly in East Asia...

In Singapore, healthy male criminals under 50 years of age can be sentenced to a maximum of 24 strokes of the rotan (rattan) cane on the buttocks; the punishment is mandatory for over 40 offenses, mostly violent crimes, but also some immigration violations, drug violations, and acts of vandalism...

The caning can leave permanent scars on the recipient...

Canes can be manufactured for disciplinary purpose in different sizes and weights, determining the potential severity of the punishment...
For judicial and prison punishment of adult criminals, the Malay Commonwealth nations (including Malaysia and Brunei; similar in neighbouring Thailand and Indonesia) still use the even graver Singapore cane (15 mm diameter, and at about 1.2 m clearly the longest, most other types usually being 60 - 70 cm)...

The victim usually bleeds from the wound at the buttocks, and can get infections if not treated instantly. The victims will almost certainly have to spend days in bed.
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Old 04-20-2006, 07:42 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raeanna74
Looking at it from the perspective of an American woman I cannot imagine it even being possible to be so completely brainwashed as to cooperate with that. There has to be something in the culture or in those women's background that has taught them to be completely helpless with regards to anything their husband chooses to do.
Make no mistake...it happens in our "culture" as well. *cough*DavidKoresh*cough*cough*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
I wonder if we would have had the same types of responses if he were Mormon
I wonder why you would even wonder that. But, to answer, yes...I believe that we would.
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Old 04-20-2006, 08:01 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redlemon
Actually, it does, in a way. 24 strokes is the maximum physical punishment allowed. Don't forget the 32 years of prison as well.
Ahhh. Yeah, actually I had forgotten that, lol. And I didn't realize at all that caning was so hard-core. I guess I was thinking it's more along the lines of spanking.

Well, at least he'll be out of his daughter's (and wives) lives for a good long while. I hope the courts direct the victims in getting counseling too, but I don't know if they're into that in Singapore. They seem to be pretty forward-thinking and modern--even with having caning as punishment.

I don't know if I could live with myself as one of the wives/mothers, though.
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Old 04-20-2006, 08:16 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raeanna74
I'm surprised at the mothers. Looking at it from the perspective of an American woman I cannot imagine it even being possible to be so completely brainwashed as to cooperate with that. There has to be something in the culture or in those women's background that has taught them to be completely helpless with regards to anything their husband chooses to do. It's wrong, so terribly wrong. I want to hate him and anyone to brainwashed those women to cooperate so fully.
Unless I'm mistaken, doesn't Muslin culture always demand that the female is completely obey the male head of family? At least, that's what I observed.
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Old 04-20-2006, 08:21 AM   #11 (permalink)
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The 45-year-old man, who cannot be named in order to protect the identity of his daughters, was sentenced after he pleaded guilty to five charges of rape and admitted to another 34 charges, including rape and attempted aggravated rape.
I know it said you can have max of 4 wives, but this must be pretty common over there.
If just giving his name would identify his daughters.
It is my belief that if this too place in a "western civilization" and that just the news that a man w/ 10 wives and 64 children raped his daughters, that alone would identdify the daughters.
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Old 04-20-2006, 10:35 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights
I wonder why you would even wonder that. But, to answer, yes...I believe that we would.
I don't think we would have people rushing to say 'he isn't a typical mormon'. Mormons are a group thats ok to make fun of as far as I can tell.
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Old 04-20-2006, 10:46 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
I don't think we would have people rushing to say 'he isn't a typical mormon'. Mormons are a group thats ok to make fun of as far as I can tell.
I don't think that we'd have to have people rush in to say "He isn't a typical Mormon"...would we?
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Old 04-20-2006, 10:54 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I think that regardless of what ethnic/politcal/cultural/religious group he belongs to, we'd all be saying "that dude is seriously fucked up. His wives and kids are fucked up too, but he made them that way."

Personally, I don't think that this guy is any more or less fucked up than any American father who has sex with his daughter. He's a typical pedophile, not a typical Muslim.
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Old 04-20-2006, 11:20 AM   #15 (permalink)
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...including rape and attempted aggravated rape.
I was unaware there were different classifications of rape, like there are different classificiations of murder. What is the difference between rape and aggravated rape?

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Old 04-20-2006, 11:30 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Definition according to Mass Law but I'd imagine it's pretty much the same in most places.

Rape.—Sexual intercourse or unnatural sexual intercourse by a person with another person who is compelled to submit by force and against his will or by threat of bodily injury, or sexual intercourse or unnatural sexual intercourse with a child under sixteen years of age.


Aggravated Rape.—Sexual intercourse or unnatural sexual intercourse by a person with another person who is compelled to submit by force and against his will or by threat of bodily injury; and either such sexual intercourse or unnatural sexual intercourse results in or is committed with acts resulting in serious bodily injury, or is committed by a joint enterprise, or is committed during the commission or attempted commission of another offence.
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Old 04-20-2006, 11:43 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feelgood
Unless I'm mistaken, doesn't Muslin culture always demand that the female is completely obey the male head of family? At least, that's what I observed.
I understood that the female is to obey God first and then her husband or father. If her husband or were to be asking them to disobey a law that God has laid then it would be sin for her to obey her husband/father. I believe that incest in the normal muslim groups is considered a sin.

Anyone who knows otherwise, please correct me.
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Old 04-20-2006, 11:23 PM   #18 (permalink)
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So many posts again. When I go to the UK, I'd be able to keep better track of the threads I start

Caning is serious, where I live (Malaysia), you get 1 cane per session. The doctor checks your rear to see if you can get another, but usually you are left with 1, and do the other canings on another day. You get hit so hard, your skin comes off together with the cane. It's bad, and it's scary.

And what raeanna74 said.. I think you're right there. But I wouldn't know, I'm not muslim.

He has 4 wives legally, the other 6 are his... *mistresses*.
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Old 04-21-2006, 11:07 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Old 04-22-2006, 12:47 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raeanna74
I understood that the female is to obey God first and then her husband or father. If her husband or were to be asking them to disobey a law that God has laid then it would be sin for her to obey her husband/father. I believe that incest in the normal muslim groups is considered a sin.

Anyone who knows otherwise, please correct me.

as a muslim myself, i can say that your are correct.

regardless which sect or school of thought you follow, incest is absolutely forbidden in islam. i'm not sure what is meant by 'normal muslim groups' but i know of no muslim group, mainstream or fringe group that endorses rape or incest. he is just one sick individual who happens to profess a certain faith.

this sort of thing happens in all faiths and cultures, ranging from priests in catholicism to the fringe 'david koresh's to mormons to sicko psychopaths... then again anyone who commits such henious acts is a sicko psychopath.
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Old 04-22-2006, 06:27 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ustwo
I don't think we would have people rushing to say 'he isn't a typical mormon'. Mormons are a group thats ok to make fun of as far as I can tell.
I, for one, would have clarified that he wouldn't have been a typical Mormon; the practice of polygamy was banned in the late 1800's so that Utah could become a state. There are several "Mormon" offshoot religions that still practice, but they are definitely the minority and are not recognized by the LDS church. A lot of people still think that plural marriage is still common here; I've been asked many times "Isn't that the place where men have two wives?" when I've told non-Utahns where I am from.

When I first read this post, I did assume it was a man in one of these offshoot groups, because there are quite a few scandals to this nature in these groups. It doesn't matter what faith the guy is...he's sick and deserves everything he gets.
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Old 04-22-2006, 07:59 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Actually, there is a book - Under the Banner of Heaven by Jon Krakauer (a very well-respected journalistic writer) - that studies fundamentalist Mormonism and it is far more prevalent than I ever imagined - and disturbing. It is quite normal for girls as young as 13-14 years old to be married to much older men. Even for stepfathers to marry their own stepchildren. And because they live in closed, close-knit communities these activities are very rarely prosecuted. In fact, very often law enforcement will be involved in polygamist activities, as well. This book blew my mind. It is an excellent, well-written volume and I encourage anyone who wants to know more about fundamentalist Mormonism (not to be confused with the modern Church of Latter Day Saints) to read this book.
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Old 04-22-2006, 01:38 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixedmedia
Actually, there is a book - Under the Banner of Heaven by Jon Krakauer (a very well-respected journalistic writer) - that studies fundamentalist Mormonism and it is far more prevalent than I ever imagined - and disturbing. It is quite normal for girls as young as 13-14 years old to be married to much older men. Even for stepfathers to marry their own stepchildren. And because they live in closed, close-knit communities these activities are very rarely prosecuted. In fact, very often law enforcement will be involved in polygamist activities, as well. This book blew my mind. It is an excellent, well-written volume and I encourage anyone who wants to know more about fundamentalist Mormonism (not to be confused with the modern Church of Latter Day Saints) to read this book.
I've had highly educated people swear to me that most Mormons have multiple wives.

While I have not read the book you mention, I would speculate that a better wording would be "It is quite normal AMONG THESE GROUPS for girls as young as 13-14 years old to be married to much older men. Even for stepfathers to marry their own stepchildren."

I would further suggest that such arrangements are rare. What does the author give you in terms of numbers?
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Old 04-22-2006, 02:17 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvelous Marv
I've had highly educated people swear to me that most Mormons have multiple wives.

While I have not read the book you mention, I would speculate that a better wording would be "It is quite normal AMONG THESE GROUPS for girls as young as 13-14 years old to be married to much older men. Even for stepfathers to marry their own stepchildren."

I would further suggest that such arrangements are rare. What does the author give you in terms of numbers?
Yes, that wording would be more fitting. Thank you.

Within the American populace at large, yes it is rare, but within these groups while perhaps not the norm, it is not rarely known. But how much tolerance of the marriage of adolescent girls, right here in the States, is acceptable and not shocking?

I am quoting some from the book here: Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith by Jon Krakauer, published by Doubleday, 2003.

Quote:
Originally Posted by From the book
Colorado City [Arizona], home to some nine thousnd souls....All but a handful of the town's residents are Mormon Fundamentalists. They live in this patch of desert in the hope of being left alone to follow the sacred principle of plural marriage without interference from government authorities or the LDS Church.
About the town's resident leader and prophet, Rulon T. Jeffs, aka Uncle Rulon....

Quote:
Originally Posted by From the book
Uncle Rulon's word carries the weight of law. The mayor and every other city employee answers to him, as do the entire police force and the superintendent of public schools....

Uncle Rulon has married an estimated seventy-five women with who he has fathered at least sixty-five children; several of his wives were given to him in marriage when they were fourteen or fifteen and he was in his eighties.
There are no statistics in the book, as it is doubtful that such statistics have ever been assembled. But he interviews many women in the book who were married at the ages of 13-16 and whose daughters have been married off at similar ages, sometimes even to their own husbands. From the personal accounts of Fundamentalist Mormons in the book who live within these groups, it is obvious that these marriages are viewed as acceptable, even if not subscribed to by every family. For me, reading the book, I was shocked by the fact that, in this day and age, there was a Mormon Fundamentalist city in Arizona......let alone one in which adolescent girls were absorbed into polygamist marriages. I held no real objection to polygamy before I read this book, and I still do not among consenting adults, but not this.

Here's another little tidbit that struck me....this one more amusing....

Quote:
Originally Posted by From the book
Despite the fact that Uncle Rulon and his followers regard the governments of Arizona, Utah, and the United States as Satanic forces out to destroy the UEP [United Effort Plan, aka Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints], their polygamous community receives more than $6 million a year in public funds.
I could find more excerpts regarding the marriages of underage girls, if necessary. The book has many references, compiled both by interview and by observations of the author.

Last edited by mixedmedia; 04-22-2006 at 02:21 PM..
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Old 04-22-2006, 02:47 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Also, there are approximately 5.6 million Mormons in the US and I don't think it's likely that most of them are practicing plural marriage.

That number also shocked me a little, though, I had no idea there were that many Mormons in the US.
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Old 04-23-2006, 06:22 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Having read the book, I can tell you that Krakauer is speaking strictly of people that have been excommunicated from (or never even belonged to) the mainstream LSD church. They are the Mormon equivalent of the snake-handling Pentacostals in East TN and Western NC - the rest of the Pentacostals think the snake handlers are nuts. Krakauer spent a fair amount of the book discussing the politics of Colorado City, AZ, which is in the NW corner of AZ and separated from the rest of the state by the Grand Canyon, which effectively cuts it off from easy travel. If I remember right, he said that the population was roughly 30-40,000 with 90% belonging to the Fundamentalist LSD church, which is pretty much catagorically vilified by the mainstream LSD church.
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Old 04-23-2006, 08:12 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Yes, the fundamentalists are estranged from the official LDS church. I hope I made that clear. And, according to the book there are only 9,000 residents in Colorado City, AZ.
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Old 04-23-2006, 08:37 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Jazz
Having read the book, I can tell you that Krakauer is speaking strictly of people that have been excommunicated from (or never even belonged to) the mainstream LSD church. They are the Mormon equivalent of the snake-handling Pentacostals in East TN and Western NC - the rest of the Pentacostals think the snake handlers are nuts. Krakauer spent a fair amount of the book discussing the politics of Colorado City, AZ, which is in the NW corner of AZ and separated from the rest of the state by the Grand Canyon, which effectively cuts it off from easy travel. If I remember right, he said that the population was roughly 30-40,000 with 90% belonging to the Fundamentalist LSD church, which is pretty much catagorically vilified by the mainstream LSD church.
Hah, shouldn't that be LDS church?
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