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Old 05-11-2006, 03:09 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Slacker tax

Eternal undergrad plans 13th year -- to study abroad
Quote:
WHITEWATER, Wis. -- Despite his 12 years as an undergraduate student, Johnny Lechner realized something was missing from his academic record: He'd never studied abroad.

And so the 29-year-old perpetual student who was expected to finally graduate from the University of Wisconsin-Whitewater withdrew his application for graduation Monday, five days before commencement.

"I realized that if I went one more year, I could study abroad," Lechner said. "That's one thing I haven't done."

Lechner's extended academic career has made him a celebrity of sorts. His never-ending student life has been featured in newspapers and on network television shows, not to mention campus publications across the nation.

By this spring he had completed 234 college credits, or about 100 more than needed to graduate, and was taking seven more.

That qualified him for the so- called "slacker tax," instituted this school year by the UW Board of Regents to help cover the state subsidy for students who stay long past the usual four or five years to earn an undergraduate degree.

It calls for students who exceed 165 total credit hours or 30 more than their degree programs require -- whichever is higher -- to pay double tuition.

Lechner said he didn't start out to be a long-term student, but it just developed once he realized how much fun he was having at college.

Had he graduated, he would have earned a liberal studies de gree in education, communications, theater, health and women's studies.

Michelle Eigenberger, an editor at the Royal Purple, the campus newspaper, said Lechner may have achieved celebrity status, but most students are tired of it.

"It's getting old," she said. "For the sanity of the rest of the campus, we want him to get out of here."
13 years as an undergrad? I'd like to smack this guy upside the head and show him the real world - the one he should have found 8 years ago.. the real world can be fun too... though I suppose the other students could appreciate him around - -he's old enough to buy beer... but gotta wonder if he's getting girls?

Is it right to charge a student who just doens't want to leave school because he's "having fun" double tuition? why not just make him leave... why is not graduating even an option.

back in my day - slackers were the ones on the five year plan... that couldn't quite grasp the concept that college was 4 years....
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Old 05-11-2006, 05:53 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I think the double tuition method is absurd. There has to be a better way to get it across to the students that staying in college forever just isn't cool. Make them graduate instead.
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Old 05-11-2006, 05:59 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Why? The state and the taxpayers subsidize a LARE part of a college student's education at a state school. Why should they have to continue to subsidize this idiot when he could have graduated and been contributing to society 8 years ago?
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Old 05-11-2006, 06:12 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I know this may sound naive but Can't the college just issue him his degrees?? He has to APPLY to graduate? I don't recall applying. I remember filling out forms as to what was supposed to be on my papers and stuff but that's it.

Is he paying for this or getting lots of government assistance?? If he's getting assistance then why is the government still approving him for this? If he's working and earning his schooling then personally I see nothing wrong with this.

I'm one of those that took 5 years but that was simply because I screwed around the first semester and failed half my classes. After that I figured out that I had to work. I learned, I finished.
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Old 05-11-2006, 06:24 AM   #5 (permalink)
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That qualified him for the so- called "slacker tax," instituted this school year by the UW Board of Regents to help cover the state subsidy for students who stay long past the usual four or five years to earn an undergraduate degree.
I don't think it's necessary to doulbe the tuition, just don't allow him to receive the subsidy (or any other grants, scholarships, etc.). It looks like he's accepted more than his fair share of education dollars, so he should have to at least repay that, and not continue getting any more.

If he is willing to fund his education himself, then I don't care what he does or how long he is a student. I wonder what his parents think of this, and if they help him with tuition/books/living expenses?
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Old 05-11-2006, 06:26 AM   #6 (permalink)
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The thing I keep thinking is why didn't he just graduate and then go on to grad school? He could have had a Phd by now.
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Old 05-11-2006, 06:32 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Perhaps they should just make him a teacher. Isn't that what others who refuse to leave the academic environment do.
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Old 05-11-2006, 06:43 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Perhaps he's like a monk, cloistering himself and dedicating himself to mental self improvement.

If he's supporting himself and not taking substantial subsidies, then I don't care how long he studies, and he shouldn't be overcharged by the University.

That said, there should be a point, after successfully completing enough credits, where you graduate by default and receive your degree. After that, you are forced to pursue a different undergrad degree or join the masters track with all the appropriate tuition and responsibilities.
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Old 05-11-2006, 06:59 AM   #9 (permalink)
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If this guy is a celebrity, who in the fuck is going to give him a job?

"Oh, you are the one that stayed in school all those years."
"Yep. That's me. I have a combined Liberal Arts degree in education, communications, theater, health and women's studies."
"We aren't hiring right now."


Shit. I guess I can sleep easy knowing that I will be ahead of this guy in line for work.

I think this guy is scared of real life. Unlike the rest of us who just got over our fears and went on with it, he is stuck. Wouldn't you be scared to death as well?
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Old 05-11-2006, 07:17 AM   #10 (permalink)
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At my University you had to apply and justify your extra time past four years. I switched majors and needed one class to graduate, and had to petition to be able to do so (4.5 years). If they said no I'd have been out of luck and I never heard anyone going over 6 years.

Sounds like the school just had a bad policy and started a stupid way to deal with it. Much easier to make them justify why they should stay.
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Old 05-11-2006, 07:19 AM   #11 (permalink)
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I don't think there is anything wrong with charging him double tuition. But there are other solutions to this problem that other schools have adapated. For instance I believe CM doesn't allow people to do this, you get 4 (or maybe 5) years and you are done whether you have the degree or not, you can't finish a degree and stay and get another they kick you out. Another thing I have heard schools doing is after X years credits no longer count. Thus this guy would have to retake his freshman classes.
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Old 05-11-2006, 08:00 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sultana
I don't think it's necessary to doulbe the tuition, just don't allow him to receive the subsidy (or any other grants, scholarships, etc.). It looks like he's accepted more than his fair share of education dollars, so he should have to at least repay that, and not continue getting any more.
That sounds like the right approach to me; however, it might be too difficult to calculate how much of the subsidy goes to each individual student versus other costs, so they might have just made an assumption and gone with "double".

Also, this guy is probably completely unhireable. I hope he's planning to go into business for himself.
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Old 05-11-2006, 08:55 AM   #13 (permalink)
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I'm on the opposite side of the coin here. If I had the funds to keep paying for school, I'd go forever. I love the educational environment, I love learning new things, however I do not love being poor, hence I have a career and work 50+ hours/week. If he can afford double tuition, I say props to him!
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Old 05-11-2006, 11:12 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Hail Swiftly Educated Citizens!

It took me 7 years and over 180 hours to finally graduate.

Once towards the end of my prolonged tenure at the univeristy, my "advisor" started yelling at me because my blasť attitude towards the completion of my education.

They didn't yell at me when they cashed the checks each semester.
My slow pace was certainly helped by low tuition costs which is sadly, no longer the norm.

My job now is in no way related to my education either.
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Old 05-11-2006, 12:22 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Yeah, I was thinking he's pulling a Van Wilder, too. Meh, I don't think there should be a tax, but shit, don't let him use the financial aid. Or get grants.
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Old 05-11-2006, 12:37 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Charlatan
The thing I keep thinking is why didn't he just graduate and then go on to grad school? He could have had a Phd by now.
Not necessarily. I once had a 41-year-old woman friend once who'd been in grad school continuously for 20 years or so and _still_ didn't have her PhD. She was from money and brains -- daddy had co-invented modern color TV for RCA -- and so her folks bankrolled her indefinitely, as long as she stayed in school. She was a grad student at many of the big eastern schools including MIT and never completed a phd program. She was having too much fun sleeping late and smoking dope and bullshitting with academics.

Finally she ended up in biophysics at UC Berkeley and tried to slack there as long as possible. But they were a little less tolerant than the eastern schools; even though she screwed up in various ways, they practically shoved the piece of paper in her hand and slammed the door behind her. Once she had her phd, daddy stopped paying and she had to go out and get a regular job.

The moral: some people just won't leave as long as long as someone else is paying the bill, whether it be the public trust or the parents.

Last edited by Rodney; 05-11-2006 at 12:39 PM..
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Old 05-11-2006, 12:42 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Definitely agree, does not seem right if he is getting aid/scholarships/subsidies, etc.

If he wants to be a career student and pay for it, more power to him. I also wish I had some way of paying for continuous learning/enlightenment without actually having to work as well.
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Old 05-12-2006, 09:05 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maleficent
back in my day - slackers were the ones on the five year plan... that couldn't quite grasp the concept that college was 4 years....
Here, college is 120 credit hours, with 45 non-overlapping credits for each major. I'm double-majoring and taking five years to do it, but I'd be taking the same amount of time if I had stuck with one degree. Does that make me a slacker?
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Old 05-12-2006, 02:01 PM   #19 (permalink)
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He's not in high school. He's an adult and he's paying the college for every course he takes. Why should they care?
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Old 05-12-2006, 02:48 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Once you start working you don't stop until you retire (well for most people). If you can milk the system without breaking any rules, go for it. I understand them charging more, but it is his choice, his life.
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Old 05-12-2006, 02:58 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Val_1
He's not in high school. He's an adult and he's paying the college for every course he takes. Why should they care?
Because he's only paying a small fraction of the tuition. Students pay around $2,000 or so, but government subsidies add another 6,000 or 7,000 on top of that.

That's why doubling the tuition is more than fair to this guy - he's still costing the taxpayers a crapload of money, just not quite as bad.
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Old 05-12-2006, 05:19 PM   #22 (permalink)
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"Public" schools, such as State University systems, are indeed partly paid for by the taxpayers (I think it was about half-covered in the CSU system). The article doesn't mention if the guy is taking any grants, so that can't be an issue in the argument. I took 8 years to get my three degrees, but that's because (a) I took about half those years figuring out what I wanted to do with my life, and (b) I was working full time as well, so I had to make my classes fit around work, which meant I was going part time some of the time. I know people who took that long to get one degree, but again, they were working full time, so had to go to school part time. Since he's only taking seven units, he's not going full time, so maybe this has contributed to his situation somewhat.

I'm not sure how I feel about this situation. On one hand, I don't begrudge the guy liking school, and wanting to stay there. There are some people who just love to learn, and never want to stop. On the other hand, he is costing the taxpayers money that could be going towards other students/equipment/staff/etc. I guess I would just say that he'll be overqualified when he does graduate. =)
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Old 05-12-2006, 10:15 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shakran
Because he's only paying a small fraction of the tuition. Students pay around $2,000 or so, but government subsidies add another 6,000 or 7,000 on top of that.

That's why doubling the tuition is more than fair to this guy - he's still costing the taxpayers a crapload of money, just not quite as bad.
Uhh...I don't know where you live, but that's usually not the case.

When I was in school (last year), I paid about $6000 in total tuition and fees, not including living expenses. That's three terms with an average of 15 credits a term. Cost of attendance at my university is about $15,000 (cost of attendance is what financial aid attempts to cover--$15,000 is the cost if you live off campus, it covers all expenses, including tuition, living expenses, and transportation costs).

The majority of the time, Pell Grants/state aid will only cover the cost of tuition. Any additional cost of attendance usually comes from scholarships, loans, or work-study. While most students qualify for better financial aid after the age of 23 (which is the age at which they become independents), the aid decreases over time because eventually, under most aid programs, you reach a maximum of aid received, and your aid runs out. Most universities require academic progress--progress towards graduation--to continue qualifying for student aid.

While yes, this student is being subsidized in some ways by attending a state school, the reality is that more and more funding is being cut from tertiary education at the state level. My tuition underwent an enormous increase from when I started university to when I finished, and for two years my university did away with its tuition plateau (when I first arrived, you paid the same for 12 credits as you did for 18--they did away with it and then reinstated it last year after it was discovered they weren't saving/making that much money anyhow). Cost of attendance has gone up $7000.

More than likely, this guy is paying his own way, especially since he hasn't quit even after they doubled his tuition. Why should we begrudge someone the chance to learn, especially if they're doing it at their own expense? The taxpayers of Wisconsin probably aren't losing much on this guy, if they're losing anything at all.
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Old 05-12-2006, 11:48 PM   #24 (permalink)
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First: This is news?

Second:

If he only has 234 credits, that is only 18 credits per year. (the amount I take per term)

I think this guy is a 'part-time' student.
He is probabilty working as well as doing school.

At 18 credits a year, he would take 8 years to graduate normal.

I don't think this is a big deal.
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Old 05-13-2006, 05:12 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Uhh...I don't know where you live, but that's usually not the case.

It may not usually be the case, but it is the case in the U of Wisconsin system. Look it up - the info's out there on the net.

And btw Vincentt, 12 credits and up and you're considered a full time student. Above 18 usually requires approval from the dean of your college.
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Old 05-13-2006, 05:40 AM   #26 (permalink)
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12 credits per SEMESTER is fulltime. But he was only doing 18 per YEAR. That is, he was doing only 9 credits per semester.

That is under full-time.
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Old 05-13-2006, 06:08 AM   #27 (permalink)
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I don't think this is a big deal.
Me neither. As someone once said,..."worse things happen at sea."
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Old 05-13-2006, 07:01 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shakran
It may not usually be the case, but it is the case in the U of Wisconsin system. Look it up - the info's out there on the net.

And btw Vincentt, 12 credits and up and you're considered a full time student. Above 18 usually requires approval from the dean of your college.
According to University of Wisconsin-Whitewater's website, the cost of attendance for an independent student (over the age of 23) is similar to the cost of attendance at my university (Oregon State University). Their calculation for expenditures totals $15,492, including $5,640 for tuition and books. Tuition at UW-Whitewater was $2,627 per term (12-18 credits) as of Spring 2006; the fee schedule for Fall 2006 isn't available yet.

While even part-time students are available for aid, the amount of aid severely decreases, and according to federal aid guidelines, if you're taking under a certain number of credits, they cannot include things like transportation or incidentals in the theoretical budget they use to calculate aid given. I sincerely doubt that this guy is receiving aid, however, as I don't think he falls under "satisfactory academic progress" made.
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Old 05-14-2006, 02:47 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Old 05-14-2006, 03:48 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by onesnowyowl
Uhh...I don't know where you live, but that's usually not the case.

When I was in school (last year), I paid about $6000 in total tuition and fees, not including living expenses. That's three terms with an average of 15 credits a term. Cost of attendance at my university is about $15,000 (cost of attendance is what financial aid attempts to cover--$15,000 is the cost if you live off campus, it covers all expenses, including tuition, living expenses, and transportation costs).

The majority of the time, Pell Grants/state aid will only cover the cost of tuition. Any additional cost of attendance usually comes from scholarships, loans, or work-study. While most students qualify for better financial aid after the age of 23 (which is the age at which they become independents), the aid decreases over time because eventually, under most aid programs, you reach a maximum of aid received, and your aid runs out. Most universities require academic progress--progress towards graduation--to continue qualifying for student aid.

While yes, this student is being subsidized in some ways by attending a state school, the reality is that more and more funding is being cut from tertiary education at the state level. My tuition underwent an enormous increase from when I started university to when I finished, and for two years my university did away with its tuition plateau (when I first arrived, you paid the same for 12 credits as you did for 18--they did away with it and then reinstated it last year after it was discovered they weren't saving/making that much money anyhow). Cost of attendance has gone up $7000.

More than likely, this guy is paying his own way, especially since he hasn't quit even after they doubled his tuition. Why should we begrudge someone the chance to learn, especially if they're doing it at their own expense? The taxpayers of Wisconsin probably aren't losing much on this guy, if they're losing anything at all.
all the stuff you're quoting are the visible costs of attendence. but they don't even cover a fraction of the real costs. I don't think shakran was referring to things like Pell's and loans, he's talking about where the bulk of running an institution comes from, labor as well as utilities and such. students' tuitions don't cover that. true, state institutions are losing funding from various government sources, but their endowments and public funding still comprise a huge bulk of the cost of running an institution.

there is no way this guy's money is coming anywhere close to covering his seat.
when tuition "skyrockets" it increases by a few thousand per quarter/semester. it still doesn't even increase at the same pace as ordinary inflation/cost of living increases, however.
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Old 05-14-2006, 03:52 PM   #31 (permalink)
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In Texas the state covers a lot of the tuition. At this point I think at A&M we only pay 25% of the total cost of tuition fees. It used to be quite less than this when Texas was having an oil boom. As it stands it seems like things are slowly but surely inching back up in price.
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Old 05-14-2006, 05:07 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onesnowyowl
According to University of Wisconsin-Whitewater's website, the cost of attendance for an independent student (over the age of 23) is similar to the cost of attendance at my university (Oregon State University). Their calculation for expenditures totals $15,492, including $5,640 for tuition and books. Tuition at UW-Whitewater was $2,627 per term (12-18 credits) as of Spring 2006; the fee schedule for Fall 2006 isn't available yet.
As others have mentioned, $2627 barely scratches the surface of the actual costs of educating a student.

Quote:
I don't think he falls under "satisfactory academic progress" made.
Yes, he does. Satisfactory academic progress means you're not failing most of your classes. As I recall from other articles on this guy, he gets good grades.


And my apologies on the fulltime student thing. Misread that to be semester, not year.
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