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Old 06-20-2006, 04:24 PM   #1 (permalink)
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They want to Hunt Whales Again



Whaling commission backs resuming hunt
ADAM RANEY

Associated Press

FRIGATE BAY, ST. KITTS — The International Whaling Commission narrowly approved a resolution in support of resuming commercial whaling, but pro-whaling nations still lack the numbers needed to overturn a 20-year-old ban.

With a vote Sunday of 33-32, Japan and a collection of supporters in the Caribbean and Africa pushed through the symbolic resolution saying the moratorium on commercial whaling was meant to be temporary and is no longer needed.

Although another vote supported by 75 per cent of the 70 IWC members would be required to overturn the ban, pro-whaling nations said they were energized by the resolution. They have argued that the IWC should return to its roots as a group that manages the world's whale population, rather than trying to prevent the killing of whales altogether.

“We will not take revenge against anti-whaling nations,” said Joji Morishita, chief spokesman for the Japanese delegation. “This is the beginning of a rational process of returning the IWC to a management organization.”

Japan and other pro-whaling countries, which include Norway, Iceland and Russia, were to hold a meeting Monday to set a strategy for recasting the organization's mission.

The United States, Australia and New Zealand voted against the measure.

The pro-whaling countries had lost four previous and more significant votes at the meeting. But with each vote, conservationists have become increasingly worried that pro-whaling nations will eventually control the commission.

Delegates from small Caribbean and African countries said the resolution — the first of its kind since the ban — was needed to force the IWC to take up its original mandate of managing whale hunts — not banning them altogether. The backers have been pushing to lift the ban, saying it was a way to protect fish stocks from whales and give their small islands food security.

Environmental groups have accused developing nations of voting with Japan in return for money for fisheries projects — which Japan and those countries have repeatedly denied. Pro-whaling nations have spent years encouraging small and developing countries to join the IWC.

Vassili Papastavrou, a whale biologist for the International Fund for Animal Welfare, said he believed nothing would change following the vote since Japan and Iceland already hunt whales under the auspices of scientific research — which critics call a sham — and Norway ignores the 1986 IWC ban altogether.

“Vote or no vote, 2,400 whales will be killed in the next twelve months,” he said.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...International/

Well, I was surprised when I posted about the feeling of disgust I had towards the Canadian Seal hunt that a great many people didn't not share my sympathies towards animals.

Well, now it appears that they are going to resume hunting whales again.

I am greatly disappointed to hear that such majestic and intelligent gentle creatures are on the agenda to be hunted down once again.

If the Japanese push this through, they can be assured that this camper will never buy a japanese car, or any other Japanese product again.

I don't care less about culture, saving fish stocks (absurd), or whatever other excuse they come up with.

Last edited by james t kirk; 06-20-2006 at 06:30 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 06-20-2006, 05:05 PM   #2 (permalink)
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As long as the whale population is closely monitored to make sure it is staying at a maintainable level I don't really care whether they hunt them or not.
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Old 06-20-2006, 05:36 PM   #3 (permalink)
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As far as I know, a lot of these countries are basically ignoring the rules anyway, so if switching from ban to management will get them to listen, then do it.
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Old 06-20-2006, 05:54 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I find the whole idea of hunting whales & seals nauseating!
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Old 06-20-2006, 06:15 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I don't understand what the big deal is with whales. I mean they are just animals like cows, chickens, etc. I don't want them to be extinct or anything, but if someone wants to hunt them then I say go for it.
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Old 06-20-2006, 06:28 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djtestudo
As far as I know, a lot of these countries are basically ignoring the rules anyway, so if switching from ban to management will get them to listen, then do it.
I have a bridge for sale in Brooklyn I am sure you would be interested in.
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Old 06-20-2006, 06:29 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Da Munk
As long as the whale population is closely monitored to make sure it is staying at a maintainable level I don't really care whether they hunt them or not.
Quoted for truth. And I think a boycott on Japanese products would be absurdity if you are wanting to take a stand.
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Old 06-20-2006, 06:35 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Toaster126
Quoted for truth. And I think a boycott on Japanese products would be absurdity if you are wanting to take a stand.
Really?

Ask the French wine makers about the effects of American boycotts on their product.

The 56th meeting of the IWC (International Whaling Commission) is due to take place next week, 19th to the 22nd July in Sorrento, Italy.

Oceans in crisis
The oceans are in a very different state to when the IWC was formed in the 1940's to manage whale stocks . Whales, and other cetaceans, now face an array of threats; it is estimated that some 300,000 cetaceans die as a result of human activity each year. Most are innocent victims of unsustainable fisheries, and end up as bycatch in fishing nets, but they are also at risk from pollution, severely depleted fish stocks, the effects of climate change and even ship strikes.

Some species and populations, such as the North Atlantic right whale, the baiji, the vaquita and the Western Pacific population of gray whale, are likely to become extinct this century unless drastic action is taken to address the environmental threats responsible.

The IWC and the Conservation Committee
For the first time the IWC will have a Conservation Committee. First established last year in Berlin the Committee could herald a brand new direction for the IWC: switching focus towards a stronger conservation agenda which can evaluate environmental threats and provide strong and meaningful conservation measures. This conservation angle of the IWC was bitterly opposed by the pro-whaling nations and if they gain increases in their voting power this year there could be moves to weaken or even abolish this crucial committee.

The IWC & Vote Buying
As in many recent years the controversial issue of vote buying is still posing a threat to the world's whale populations. Whaling nation governments, such as the Japanese Government, continue their efforts to get pro-whaling decisions passed by offering fisheries aid packages to some of the Commission's poorer countries in return for pro-whaling votes.

A recent paper from a Japanese Government working group states that "As a result of efforts of the Japanese government and industry, the balance of power within the IWC ... has become almost equal[1]." Initiatives that are currently desperately needed to protect whale populations such as the Conservation Committee and Whale Watching subcommittee could be under threat if the pro-whaling nations hijack the IWC to solely promote the interests of commercial whaling.

Southern Ocean Sanctuary under threat
The Southern Ocean Sanctuary undergoes a 10 year review this year after its creation in 1994. The pro-whaling nations are pushing to weaken the status of this sanctuary that is home to a huge proportion of the world's whale populations. Yet even in this sanctuary the blue whale population is a mere 1% of what it was before commercial whaling began. Japan already kills minke whales under the guise of 'science' in these waters, and if the pro-whaling nations had their way they would abolish it entirely.

Whale watching as a solution
Whales are worth a lot more alive than dead; whale watching currently contributes more than US$ 1 billion per year to the economies of coastal states, with 9 million participants each year. Nowhere is the choice between whaling and whale watching clearer than in Iceland, a country that has recently decided to restart 'scientific' whaling. In Iceland, the very whales that are hunted are crucial to the survival of the whale-watching industry - an essential part of Iceland's huge tourist appeal.

> Greenpeace believe whale watching, if managed on sound ecological principles, combines economic, educational, scientific and conservation benefits. Whale watching will be an issue discussed in both the plenary and the Scientific Committee of the IWC.

With this backdrop Greenpeace believes it is crucial that commercial hunting of cetacean species should be stopped and that the IWC use their global reach and scientific expertise to protect and not exploit whales & other cetaceans.

Greenpeace Oceans campaigner Willie Mackenzie said:

"The world's whales are under attack from all sides; from the impacts of fisheries, climate change, pollution and even ship strikes. Whale populations were devastated in the 20th century. Today the IWC has the opportunity to embrace it's conservation agenda and protect the world's last remaining whale populations - and promote truly sustainable alternatives to whaling such as eco-tourism."

Greenpeace will be attending the IWC under observer status and will also have campaigners in the UK and at the IWC venue in Italy available for interview.


Link:

http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/content...enuPoint=D-H-A

Last edited by james t kirk; 06-20-2006 at 06:37 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 06-20-2006, 08:03 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Yea, with today's moral stands on not letting any creature we have a chance at saving get hunted to extiction, or ever protects or endangered really, I don't have much of a problem with it. I drive a Japanese car now, and I will probably drive a Japanese car then.

To me it's about the product not so much the morals, especially if it doesnt violate my morals. Can't say I side with the gushy lefts on damn near anything.
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Old 06-20-2006, 08:26 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I think it's incredibly stupid to hunt whales if their population has not recovered. I don't see how you can justify hunting an endagered species. Once their population level is higher, you'll get a greater yield and not wipe them off the face of the Earth.

I'm not convinced that the whale population is at a state were you could start hunting them commercially (and the commercial benifits will be greater if you wait). Maybe some species are at a population were it would be feasible, but I heard on the news they wanted to hunt endagered fin whales as well.

The scientific merit of hunting whales is very questionable. The only information that yo u exclusivley obtain from killing a whale is it's age, everything else can be obtained from observation or by collecting feces.

As for the cultural aspect, that is also questionable when they start serving whale burgers to try and re-ignite demand for whale products. There's also a push from this industry to increase the catch to drive down the price of the whale meat to attract more customers.
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Old 06-21-2006, 06:33 AM   #11 (permalink)
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You can buy whale at sushi shops in Tokyo, it isn't on the menu though, you have to ask for it.

Not hidden at all.
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Old 06-21-2006, 06:51 AM   #12 (permalink)
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There is a big difference between hunting seals that are plentiful in their populations and hunting whales that are endangered.

The whale hunters, if given their way, will hunt them back to the brink of extinction (and likely beyond).

I see no reason, whatsoever to condone the mass hunting of whales.
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Old 06-21-2006, 07:02 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Iceland is very concious of their place with regards to over fishing and stocks.

There are 300,000 Icelanders, of which a small percentage of them eat whale meat.

The foundation of their economy is fishing. They understand overfishing the stocks as they have to go out further and further for longer and longer times to get same amounts of catches.

As far as them exporting it, that's a different story since the market for whale meet is large.

Some of these cultures it was something done for generations. Personally, I don't care what any of these countries do about the fishing and whales. The oceans don't belong to anyone, who are we to tell anyone what to do or not to do?
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Old 06-21-2006, 07:28 AM   #14 (permalink)
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If whale numbers are not plentiful and stable, then I see no reason to sacrifice a species for food--it's not like that's all the Japanese (or anyone else) can eat.

If whale numbers are plentiful and stable, well, I personally could happily live the rest of my life never eating whale meat but I suppose it's not my place to deny that of others.

I don't see that whale numbers have reached that point yet.

And yes, killing whales for "scientific reasons" is a load of bull. They're not friggin' lab rats.
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Old 06-21-2006, 07:30 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlatan
There is a big difference between hunting seals that are plentiful in their populations and hunting whales that are endangered.

The whale hunters, if given their way, will hunt them back to the brink of extinction (and likely beyond).

I see no reason, whatsoever to condone the mass hunting of whales.
Agreed. Whale populations are not strong and they take a long time to reproduce. It is very easy to cause a species of large, slow breeding animal of low numbers to go extinct. we also have a hard time monitoring whale populations as they are always at sea. Seals, on the other hand, currently have a large, well monitored population and seals breed more quickly and readily than whales.

This is not an emotinal issue, for me, it is a scientific one founded in fact. Hunting whales is monumentally stupid.
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Old 06-21-2006, 07:55 AM   #16 (permalink)
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ban=black market

management is better.
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Old 06-21-2006, 08:05 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by highthief
... It is very easy to cause a species of large, slow breeding animal of low numbers to go extinct....
And that is why there are so few BigBen's around...

*rimshot*

But seriously folks, is there any reason to hunt whales? I remember history, and how whale bones (or was it their teeth or something like that??) was an essential industrial component, as was whale oil used for a thousand different things.

I have never tasted whale meat, but I imagine it would taste pretty gamey.

I don't support whale hunting, but I am not going to go to an extreme length to prevent it. I have faith in the elected officials in office to make the right decision, given all the facts. That is why they are there. They do the work so I don't have to.
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Old 06-21-2006, 08:17 AM   #18 (permalink)
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I'm gonna ask a question because I just don't know the answer... and don't read into the question.. .

What purpose do whales serve? other than they are kinda cool looking animals, and smart but Free Willy was an annoying movie... Do whales help the environment? I'd imagine they eat a ton of fishies in an area that's already overfished...
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Old 06-21-2006, 08:22 AM   #19 (permalink)
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All species have a place to balance out nature. Just because people may not understand the importance of brine shrimp, for example, doesn't mean that it's a good idea to wipe them out.
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Old 06-21-2006, 09:54 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sultana
All species have a place to balance out nature. Just because people may not understand the importance of brine shrimp, for example, doesn't mean that it's a good idea to wipe them out.
Exactly. For example, you have 3 species of animal in an environment. A large carnivore, a mid size omnivore and a small herbivore. The omnivores eat the small herbivores but never wipe them out because the large carnivore eats enough of the omnivores to keep their populations in check. Balance is maintained.

Man comes to the environment, hunts the large predator to mount its skin and head on a wall somewhere and what happens? The populaton of the omnivores explodes, their being no one to prey on it, and the omnivore goes on to wipe out the small herbivores, dooming itself in the process. This situation has been documented in environments invaded by man in the last few hundred to few thousand years, notably on various islands from Madagascar to Polynesia.

The same thing may occur if whales are destroyed or severely hunted. They are very vulnerable to extinction. The whaling countries all know this, but don't care.
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Old 06-21-2006, 11:48 AM   #21 (permalink)
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So whales are keeping the dangerous plankton population in check? We kill all the whales, (which doesn't seem to be what the IWC wants to do...), the plankton population increases exponentially and becomes the catalyst for some sea borne cataclysmic event?

I like whales as much as the next guy...All creatures great and small, good karma and all that jazz. There's a certain grace to them and they sing nice, but, in the end, they're still animals and while I think that cruelly killing or killing for fun is pretty distasteful, I have no problem with killing animals in general.

I would think that a large, parliamentary body such as the IWC would know a lot more about whales and the briny sea than me sitting on my butt in a library. So, I'm probably going to trust them when they say 'this needs to be done' regardless of how much I hate those fucking Finns.
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Old 06-21-2006, 12:11 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by maleficent
I'm gonna ask a question because I just don't know the answer... and don't read into the question.. .

What purpose do whales serve? other than they are kinda cool looking animals, and smart but Free Willy was an annoying movie... Do whales help the environment? I'd imagine they eat a ton of fishies in an area that's already overfished...
Would killing them off adversely affect sea environments? Probably, but I don't think that the serve a purpose any more than any other animal (humans included) serves a purpose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sultana
All species have a place to balance out nature. Just because people may not understand the importance of brine shrimp, for example, doesn't mean that it's a good idea to wipe them out.
I do agree that eliminating a species will likely affect an ecosystem. I don't think that nature balances itself, nor do I think that all species "have a place". (Other than in the sense that species interact with one another and eliminating one will likely affect another).

From a biological perspective, humans are just one more (particularly powerful) selective force to which other animals must adapt.

From a human perspective, we should probably be careful not to wipe out other species. Eliminating a species may have an adverse affect on us.
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Old 06-21-2006, 01:15 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by highthief
The whaling countries all know this, but don't care.
And these whaling countries confided this in you?

We have to be careful not to put words in the other parties mouths, just based on our moral view of the situation.
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Old 06-21-2006, 01:28 PM   #24 (permalink)
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If the populations are healthy I don't have a problem with this at all. However, I doubt the populations are really that great.
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Old 06-21-2006, 01:46 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by highthief
Whale populations are not strong.
And that fact comes from...
I have no problems with whale hunting as long as the hunting is sustainable, something hard to know when all the info that one can find about it in the media comes from Greenpeace, who, in the words of Cartman, are nothing but a bunch a tree hugger hippies.
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Old 06-21-2006, 02:10 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Yes. Because Cartman is such an authority on Greenpeace...
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Old 06-21-2006, 03:18 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sultana
All species have a place to balance out nature. Just because people may not understand the importance of brine shrimp, for example, doesn't mean that it's a good idea to wipe them out.
Exactly. Being that we are not the ones who put whales on this earth, we don't have any right to remove them, or any other creature from exsistance.
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Old 06-21-2006, 03:21 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maleficent
I'm gonna ask a question because I just don't know the answer... and don't read into the question.. .

What purpose do whales serve? other than they are kinda cool looking animals, and smart but Free Willy was an annoying movie... Do whales help the environment? I'd imagine they eat a ton of fishies in an area that's already overfished...
What purpose do human being serve?

Do we help the environment?

Hump backs eat plankton by the way.
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Old 06-21-2006, 03:22 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Charlatan
Yes. Because Cartman is such an authority on Greenpeace...
Haha, he of course isn't, but for the most part, I personally agree with at particular statement, as would a lot of others. Maybe this thread could use a small dose of humor...


Last edited by krwlz; 06-21-2006 at 03:26 PM..
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Old 06-21-2006, 03:26 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by guthmund
So whales are keeping the dangerous plankton population in check? We kill all the whales, (which doesn't seem to be what the IWC wants to do...), the plankton population increases exponentially and becomes the catalyst for some sea borne cataclysmic event?

I like whales as much as the next guy...All creatures great and small, good karma and all that jazz. There's a certain grace to them and they sing nice, but, in the end, they're still animals and while I think that cruelly killing or killing for fun is pretty distasteful, I have no problem with killing animals in general.

I would think that a large, parliamentary body such as the IWC would know a lot more about whales and the briny sea than me sitting on my butt in a library. So, I'm probably going to trust them when they say 'this needs to be done' regardless of how much I hate those fucking Finns.
You trust very easily.

See, I have been working in the big bad real world for 20 years. I can assure you that everything that happens happens for one reason and one reason only.

Money.

Corporations would sell you dog shit wrapped up as twinkies if they could get away with it. In the corporate world, the ONLY thing that matters is the bottom line. It's all about increasing sales, growing the business and cutting costs. Morality never ever enters the equation. (They might say it does, but I can assure you, it does not.)

The IWC is only interested in one thing. Money.

To trust them to regulate the whale population is akin to trusting the arsonist to run the gas station.
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Old 06-21-2006, 03:27 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Mmmmmm whale sushi. I wonder if I can get that with a side of baby seal?
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Old 06-21-2006, 03:29 PM   #32 (permalink)
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While I'm young yet, and have yet to see more than a small sample of the corporate world, I'm sorry you're so cynical about it. I've worked for several companies that, in addition to "just saying they care" also spend a good amount of time justifying that statement, and a large sum of money as well.

In the end, you're right in that were profits to decrease, those funds would stop going toward good things, but hey, we all gotta make a living right?

But Guthmud makes a very good point. I doubt theres a single person on this board that is a whale/whale breeding expert. We are, for the most part, ignorant of all the details, and spouting off at the mouth based on our morals.

They wanna hunt whales, and be responsible about it? As long as theres a market, go for it.

You're making very extreme parelells where such paralells may not exist.
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Old 06-21-2006, 03:34 PM   #33 (permalink)
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I find reading so many posts here so utterly disheartening.

I am probably more conservative than most, yet I find the notion of ever hunting whales repugnant.

The logic seems to be, "well, if the population can sustain it, it's ok to hunt them and kill them."

I'm sitting here thinking, how utterly disappointing it is to think that most of you are ok with hunting and killing a species that is intelligent, capable of thought, capable of communication between members, and is gentle and beautiful.

I am sure that I will hear, "well, how is this any different than killing a cow for dinner?" My response is that it is different. It just is.

I seem to be the only romantic on this board. Most of you seem to be purely based on mathmatics and logic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krwlz
While I'm young yet, and have yet to see more than a small sample of the corporate world, I'm sorry you're so cynical about it. I've worked for several companies that, in addition to "just saying they care" also spend a good amount of time justifying that statement, and a large sum of money as well.
Don't worry kiddo, you'll find out. You mentioned sitting in a library, so i assume you are at college or university somewhere. It's not being cynical, it's called reality. I deal with it every day.

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Old 06-21-2006, 03:46 PM   #34 (permalink)
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I mentioned sitting in a library??

Actually, I'm currently sitting in Kansas City Interning at a fortune 500 country, but close!

And I am a total supporter of reality, but the reality is, it doesn't hurt you one bit for some japanese man to be eating whale for dinner if it's his preferance. At one point or another, that was the single biggest, most efficient form of food there was on that tiny little chain of islands. After all, they can't have cows there. They would graze all the land available out in months.

Why not a little local sea cow? Or whale, whatever's handy.

Last edited by krwlz; 06-21-2006 at 04:01 PM..
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Old 06-21-2006, 04:32 PM   #35 (permalink)
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I am not a fan of whale hunting.

Looks like it's time for me to join Greenpeace again.
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Old 06-21-2006, 05:23 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james t kirk
The logic seems to be, "well, if the population can sustain it, it's ok to hunt them and kill them."...

I seem to be the only romantic on this board. Most of you seem to be purely based on mathmatics and logic.
Personally, I'm not fond of whale hunting (or dolphin hunting, or non-human primate hunting or human primate hunting ), but I understand why people hunt whales and why people eat whales. I think that it is reasonable as long as the population can sustain it. It's what I believe. I don't think that it is any less valid than a belief based on romantic notions of non-human animals.

Quote:
Don't worry kiddo, you'll find out. You mentioned sitting in a library, so i assume you are at college or university somewhere. It's not being cynical, it's called reality. I deal with it every day.
I've been out of college for over a decade and I still find this kind of language mildly offensive. Kiddo? Reality is reality. 18 year olds deal with reality just as much as 40 year olds. It's just a different reality from yours. Age alone doesn't make someone's opinion less valid.
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Old 06-21-2006, 05:28 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krwlz

Why not a little local sea cow? Or whale, whatever's handy.
Wow.

Well... when they domesticate the whale and have feed lots for whales... let's talk about the equivalence of whales to cows. Until then, realize the whales are still an endangered species.

Greed and avarice will hunt them to extinction. It is always, "what's one more going to hurt?" until they are no more...

You know, I'd love a little passenger pigeon pie... What's one more going to hurt?
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Old 06-21-2006, 05:31 PM   #38 (permalink)
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If people want to be ignorant let them... in years to come they will see the effects of their lack of caring. Perhaps we should have open season on humans as well? We as a species are grossly overpopulated. After all we are only animals like cows and whales right?
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Old 06-22-2006, 03:36 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krwlz
And these whaling countries confided this in you?

We have to be careful not to put words in the other parties mouths, just based on our moral view of the situation.
Just like the tobacco companies knew smoking was bad.

I think there are enough articles one can Google to see that.

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/07/23/whales/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlatan
Wow.

Well... when they domesticate the whale and have feed lots for whales... let's talk about the equivalence of whales to cows. Until then, realize the whales are still an endangered species.

Greed and avarice will hunt them to extinction. It is always, "what's one more going to hurt?" until they are no more...

You know, I'd love a little passenger pigeon pie... What's one more going to hurt?
Yup - the sky used to be black with passenger pigeons. Flocks of tens of millions of fastbreeding, widespread birds. Imagine what happens to a few thousand whales that take years to produce litters when hunting resumes (not that the Japs and Norwegians don't already do it under a variety of excuses).
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Last edited by highthief; 06-22-2006 at 03:42 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 06-22-2006, 04:55 AM   #40 (permalink)
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To me people's ignorance and lack of respect for animals and their lives is perhaps the greatest tragedy of all.

We as a human race seem to love the fact that we have the capabilities and the power to hunt and kill whatever it is we please. Be it human or animal, just because we can, we do.

Having the resources to be able to do something does not justify the act itself.
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