Not Right Now

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7190305.stm

Yeah... Who is okay with this. I for one am not in the least bit and this doesn't effect me in any way as I live with a vegan diet.

I don't eat animal products because of all the genetic tampering done to them, and now they just went and cut out the middle man and started making these products from cloned animals. My #1 concern is that they will not even label said products as being made from a clone. Scary thought.

If they start doing this to "organic" vegetables, I may have to stop eating and live via IV... or not be so exaggerated and just move.

If you support this than let's discuss this, I want to know if you see something I don't.

__________________
I only came to dance.

Infinite_Loser

Well, if I remember correctly, haven't they been selling cloned meat in Japan for a few years now? If it's worked for them without any kind of negative feedback, I don't see why it can't work here.

__________________
I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

PonyPotato

I suppose I just don't see the point of cloning for agriculture because it is much more expensive than normal reproduction for agricultural production. What are the advantages that outweigh the increase in cost? Environment is a major factor in producing an animal, so perhaps cloning one with the greatest genetic potential is a good idea.. but depending upon how it is raised, there are a lot of things that can go wrong or change. There are also a lot of potential problems with clones since they, too, also have to be in utero for a full term and must be raised to a certain age before they can be slaughtered or bred to obtain milk.

I think cloning can be a good thing, especially when it comes to understanding the effects of genetics, environment, stress, etc. but I'm not sure that it's really necessary to spend that much money for agricultural products that can still be produced pretty efficiently.

I have more to say on the issue, I think, but I might need more time to frame the response.

__________________
"Without passion man is a mere latent force and possibility, like the flint which awaits the shock of the iron before it can give forth its spark."
— Henri-Frédéric Amiel

Not Right Now

I think it can be a good thing to, but not for eating. IMO anyways.

What are the odds of a perfect clone every single time? there has to be some kind of risk involved. I can see this working in that less "animals" will be used, but by the same token cloning and raising an animal and killing it probably giving it the same drugs you would've given a regular animal. I don't see that as much better, although I know thats not really the general consensus as I still get the "You Dont Eat Meat? WHY?????"


as for Japan, I had never read anything along those lines. I'll look it up and get back to you.

__________________
I only came to dance.

Willravel

I know how this ends:

Charlatan

It should be noted that in the short term the price of cloning is very high. It costs over $10,000 per cow. This is a lot higher than the $1000 it costs now.

The industry is more likely to use the clones to replicate good breeders (i.e. cows that display the qualities most prized: good marbling, ability to survive on a diet of corn without getting too sick, etc.).

For the near future you will likely not be eating clones but rather the offspring of clones.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

jorgelito

What are the risks or dangers of cloning or genetically modified foods? I know very little on this subject.

Baraka_Guru

No, will.

It's actually a bit more like this:



EDIT:
The photo above is actually possible. One of the major risks is that genetically modified flora and fauna can overtake and/or crash ecosystems by introducing new and "unnatural" problems such as new viruses (or immunity to existing ones). This can throw everything out of whack. It's basically a science experiment on the public.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Lasereth

I see nothing wrong with it besides it being expensive. Sooner or later the population of the human race will exceed our food and cloning will be essential for our survival. As soon as the cost goes down I hope to see cloned food in the grocery store. It's a sign that humans are progressing with science and technology and I like that. It's pretty dumb to not let a technology this advanced go unused because some people don't think it's ethical. I want our race to be alive hundreds of years from now.

inBOIL

I don't see the problem, as long as cloned foods are labelled, so that people who don't want to take the risk don't have to. I hope they won't stop investigating cloned foods, though.

__________________
And you believe Bush and the liberals and divorced parents and gays and blacks and the Christian right and fossil fuels and Xbox are all to blame, meanwhile you yourselves create an ad where your kid hits you in the head with a baseball and you don't understand the message that the problem is you.

Punk.of.Ages

It's like making an investment. The clones cost a lot of money, but their offspring cost the same as any other animal's. It'll just create more animals to produce more offspring.

I don't think this will end well at all.

__________________
"The fact is that censorship always defeats its own purpose, for it creates, in the end, the kind of society that is incapable of exercising real discretion..." - Henry Steel Commager

"Punk rock music is great music played by really bad, drunk musicians." -Fat Mike

jorgelito

This seems reasonable. Proper labeling and more research, testing and investigating.

aberkok

What about social progress? Shouldn't that be the end that we use technology to get to?

So any technology advanced enough should be free of ethical considerations? I don't think you mean that.

To answer the thread, I don't really see the big deal with this. It's just another way to change the genetic make-up of animals and their secretions... something they're doing already without cloning. You don't have to eat them if you don't want to.

__________________
!check out my new blog! http://arkanamusic.wordpress.com

Warden Gentiles: "It? Perfectly innocent. But I can see how, if our roles were reversed, I might have you beaten with a pillowcase full of batteries."

Not Right Now

They won't be labeled supposedly.

__________________
I only came to dance.

LoganSnake

Meat is meat. Can't be any worse than the chemically processed shit that you find in a supermarket. I'd eat it.

__________________
Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques

ObieX

Yea pretty much.. just because its from a clone doesn't mean it will be any different from the meat and milk we have from non-clones. In fact it will be exactly the same. There's no reason to label it for this reason.

__________________
We Must Dissent.

Baraka_Guru

It isn't only what's in the product. It is the process we need to worry about.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

djtestudo

I saw we had a Star Wars reference, but am I the only person who's mind started flashing "Soylent Green"?

Personally, as long as it is safe, it's fine to eat.

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

inBOIL

What's so worrisome about the cloning process? From your previous post I gather that you take issue with creating something novel that can harm the environment. While this is a valid concern with genetic engineering (e.g. gene splicing), with cloning you're not creating a new type of organism. Cloning is just copying a creature that already came to exist through natural processes, or old husbandry techniques such as selective breeding. If the original organism doesn't pose a threat, why do its copies?

__________________
And you believe Bush and the liberals and divorced parents and gays and blacks and the Christian right and fossil fuels and Xbox are all to blame, meanwhile you yourselves create an ad where your kid hits you in the head with a baseball and you don't understand the message that the problem is you.

xepherys

Personally I see the "scare" aspect of this as little more than Y2K-style hysteria. Cloning isn't vastly different than normal breeding. In actual real breeding, there is STILL a chance of some serious genetic mutation occurring, right? Could this include immunity or lack thereof to a new virus? It's not any different in practice, just delivery. It also allows closer control over breeding. Farmers have bred "prize" animals since the dawn of agriculture. Now they can just turn that control knob to 11. *shrug*

As inBOIL mentions, the process isn't really an issue. These are not genetically modified animals (which the FDA still does NOT approve of, and which COULD cause serious repercussions), these are genetically CLONED animals. Not at all the same.

__________________
The prospect of achieving a peace agreement with the extremist group of MILF is almost impossible...
-- Emmanuel Pinol, Governor of Cotobato

My Homepage

Ustwo

There is only one major danger from this and its not your health or safety.

The procedure is safe and won't make weird scary mutants that haunt the dreams of technophobes.

The problem is that by making so much of the food base basically identical it means a single disease or parasite could wipe out all the cattle or wheat etc. One theory which I subscribe to for genetic diversity, especially in reproduction is creating new ways to stay ahead of disease and parasites.

Now what the odds of that are I don't know, but its something to consider. I personally don't know if the risk is that great at this point, the prime breeder have been so interbred that my guess is there isn't that much diversity in domesticated animals to start with.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

StellaLuna

They've encouraged me to go "slow food" and local.

__________________
Screw tradition!

Jenny_Lyte

I don't know much on this subject, but if I had to guess; man playing God won't go well.

snowy

I just don't want to buy into the corporate food structure.

I prefer to buy my food from locally owned and operated sources, if at all possible. I imagine cloned meat is unlikely to ever become a part of that scenario.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Hain

It was bound to happen.

We're not playing God, as we would have to create the board-game from nothing, first.

The only thing that stood out was the we are out growing our food supply. Cloning, as of today, does nothing more but control bred traits. If you make clones (by impregnating the female), then you must feed the clones till they are large enough to make product. So the advantage is where?

__________________

////\\// IRONSKY.NET \\//\\\\

1010011010

The FDA has no authority to mandate labeling for cloned products because there is no difference between the meat and milk warranting such labeling.

The products could be voluntarily labeled... but since that only allows people to direct their hysteria, it's unlikely to happen.

__________________
Simple Machines in Higher Dimensions

Baraka_Guru

As long as diseases and viruses play a role with these food products, the FDA has a responsibility to inform the public through adequate labelling.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

allaboutmusic

This is exactly what I was thinking as I read this. It would be a disaster to go fifteen years down the road and discover all the bred animals in a particular region die of the same freak disease because the original animal their predecessors were cloned from had a particular genetic flaw.

Ustwo

The only reason you would need the FDA to label cloned food is if you wanted to protest it.

There is absolutely nothing more dangerous than any other cut of beef or apple.

Fear of cloned animals is about logical as being afraid of identical twins.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

dc_dux

logical or not, it will be interesting to follow the reaction among consumers (if and when it hits the store shelves) and our trading partners.

The same day that the FDA approved the marketing of cloned beef, the USDA urged a voluntary moratorium to keep it off the market.....recognizing the hard sell ahead for the government, both at home and abroad.

We export like 10% of our beef to Japan, Korea, Canada....Will there be new demands in those countries for bans on US beef imports?

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Baraka_Guru

Sloppy or mismanaged cloning procedures have risks. Think BSE and other health risks related to meat. The public has a right to know whether their food was produced naturally or through cloning. They have a right to make their own choices based on health or ethics. Mixing animal cells isn't everyone's cup of tea.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

MSD

I used to be against genetically modified foods, and cloned animals and produce by extension. These days, I can't see myself worrying as the only significant problem I've seen is the patenting of GM foods and sterilized seeds that must be bought each growing season (while it is within the companies' rights to do it, I disagree with the practice when seeds aren't resold.)

What I see happening with cloned beef is livestock breeders identifying bulls that grow large and meaty and have strong immune systems, cloning those few bulls, mating them with several cows, then identifying the offspring that received the stronger immunity, cloning them to breed, and reducing the need for growth hormones and antibiotics over several generations. This will reduce costs for livestock farmers and reduce the amount of potentially harmful chemicals that are added to what eventually becomes our food.
I'm pretty sure that's the point of cloning.
By your position on this topic, I would guess you're a vegan because of ethical reasons rather than medical. I suspect that an individual's view of the ethics of eating meat and animal products is correlated to their views on cloned meat. If you wouldn't mind expanding on it a bit to satisfy my curiosity, I'd appreciate it.

Ustwo

Whats a sloppy cloning procedure?

DNA isn't modified.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

jorgelito

What's wrong with labeling? Seems very reasonable to me.

Baraka_Guru

I meant the management of the animals, not the actual procedure. I should have wrote sloppy or mismanaged cloning operations. (In a business or project management sense, not a medical sense.)

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

1010011010

Indeed. They'll be labeled "Grade A Beef" or what-have you just like any other animal products on the market.

In an ideal cloning procedure the DNA isn't modified. In a real procedure, especially how this is likely to be used to clone prize-winning adults to increase breeding stock, there are mutations that will have occurred in the source cells, there is potential for damage during the nuclear transfer, etc. Mitochondrial DNA will not come from the donor and may vary from clone-to-clone. Gestational environment will vary from clone-to-clone.

Some of these can be controlled, some can't. Some will become controllable with an available population of clones to use for source material and host mothers.

__________________
Simple Machines in Higher Dimensions

inBOIL

Sloppy or mismanaged husbandry procedures have risks. This is the entire reason that food production has health and safey regulations. I don't see how cloning is any different in this respect from feeding, veteranary care, or any other aspect of raising food animals.

__________________
And you believe Bush and the liberals and divorced parents and gays and blacks and the Christian right and fossil fuels and Xbox are all to blame, meanwhile you yourselves create an ad where your kid hits you in the head with a baseball and you don't understand the message that the problem is you.

Baraka_Guru

This is what I'm referring to. Cloning can introduce new problems to this system. Read Ustwo's point about biodiversity. (Post #21.)

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

alicat

My surprise is that the FDA has concluded anything on this subject. Given all the retractions that have been issued for previously A-Ok'd drugs, etc, I personally don't have any trust left in an institution that is "supposed" to protect us American's.

I feel the same way about cloned animals and their offspring as I do about the drugs that were previously deemed safe; let me know when you are absopositively sure about that!

Ali

__________________
'Beware the Jabberwock, my son! The jaws that bite, the claws that catch! Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun, The frumious Bandersnatch!'--Jabberwocky, Lewis Carroll

"You cannot do a kindness too soon because you never know how soon it will be too late."--Ralph Waldo Emerson

Ustwo

I am absopositively superdooper extracalifragalixpy sure cloned animals are 100% safe to eat. At least as safe as any animal is to eat.

This is completely different than a drug on just about every level.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.