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Old 02-04-2008, 10:16 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Location: Columbia Falls, MT
Got caught downloading movies illegally

I got a call today from my ISP. They said that Paramount had sent them an e-mail saying I downloaded a movie illegally and that they wanted my internet service shut off. Has anyone else been in this situation? Is turning off my internet the end of it or should I still be worried they'll come take my computer and any DVD-R in sight.
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Old 02-04-2008, 10:32 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junchbailey
I got a call today from my ISP. They said that Paramount had sent them an e-mail saying I downloaded a movie illegally and that they wanted my internet service shut off. Has anyone else been in this situation? Is turning off my internet the end of it or should I still be worried they'll come take my computer and any DVD-R in sight.
Posting here was probably a mistake as it eliminates plausible denyability. I'd make sure you don't have any pirated materials on your computers (use secure delete methods). You may be lucky or you might be screwed.
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Old 02-04-2008, 10:40 PM   #3 (permalink)
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eh, don't worry about it. Paramount did the same shit to me years ago over some random angelina jolie move. I forget the name.

internet got shut off, we called the isp and they were like "tee hee, be careful what you download" and turned it back on, because they don't give a shit, you're a customer of theirs and if some jackass company tells them to turn off service to a customer because they're legally required to comply then fine, but it's not cuz they want to.

just tell them you're sorry and that there must have been a mistake and that you'll be more careful what you click on in the future.

*shrug*

if you get letters directly from paramount, then you could worry.
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Old 02-04-2008, 10:53 PM   #4 (permalink)
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That's basically it. I am so glad I stopped downloading stuff. But some tips:
  • TrueCrypt (****) - "TrueCrypt is a software system for establishing and maintaining an on-the-fly-encrypted drive." Makes my private data private. Good when using external drives.
  • PeerGuardian (*)- "IP blocker for Windows. PeerGuardian 2 integrates support for multiple lists, list editing, automatic updates, and blocking all of IPv4 (TCP, UDP, ICMP, etc), making it the safest and easiest way to protect your privacy on P2P." I don't even file share, but I have it to block my school when they start trying to access my computers in the school network.
  • And finally get some sort of hard drive eraser that will perform multiple passes. Once is never enough. Three passes is DOD standard. Seven passes is NSA standard. Eight passes is good. Thirty-five, the Gutmann standard is overkill but for sure.

Once you erase your hard drive I recommend you encrypt it and put all data you want secure safely in there.

UPDATE: I'll be damned, CCleaner supports the Gutmann standard.
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Old 02-04-2008, 11:01 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junchbailey
I got a call today from my ISP. They said that Paramount had sent them an e-mail saying I downloaded a movie illegally and that they wanted my internet service shut off. Has anyone else been in this situation? Is turning off my internet the end of it or should I still be worried they'll come take my computer and any DVD-R in sight.
It's a good thing that you've had an open wireless network for a long time, thus providing an impossible burden of proof on Paramount. Obviously you can't be held responsible for what some dishonest person using your internet is doing, therefore you're innocent.

I'm sure it will be a simple matter calling up your ISP and explaining that you use an open wireless network and have no idea how often people get on.
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Old 02-05-2008, 12:42 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Leave it to willravel - always thinking - and always giving great suggestions... I am sure many thanks are in order.
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Old 02-05-2008, 05:04 AM   #7 (permalink)
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this is why i don't bother to d/l anything the price to pay is too great, even if it is as simple as losing internet service for 1-2 days.

good luck and hopefully you don't lose anything.
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Old 02-05-2008, 05:21 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynthetiq
this is why i don't bother to d/l anything the price to pay is too great, even if it is as simple as losing internet service for 1-2 days.

good luck and hopefully you don't lose anything.
Wait a second Cynthetiq, is that why you keep asking me to download stuff
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Old 02-05-2008, 05:47 AM   #9 (permalink)
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You should've made it expressly clear that you not only know nothing of what they're speaking of as you don't download pirated media - you also aren't in any way authorizing them to release your information to the RIAA/MPAA.

You're never really "caught" until your ISP gives you up - I'd be sure that they didn't just turn your service back on and sell you down the river at the same time.

I used to download religiously and then I came to the conclusion that it just isn't worth the risk of doing it stupidly just to have whichever movies came out last week. There simply isn't any way to do it safely.

Don't download new movies, use private trackers and use Peer Guardian.
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Old 02-05-2008, 06:51 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xazy
Wait a second Cynthetiq, is that why you keep asking me to download stuff
yes and no. you're d/l stuff anyways so my request isn't any real bearing.

BUT can you imagine Skogafoss all pissed off because she can't get into play WoW and it's my fault? Not good for wife faction all because I wanted to see "Meet the Spartans" without paying for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manic_Skafe
You should've made it expressly clear that you not only know nothing of what they're speaking of as you don't download pirated media - you also aren't in any way authorizing them to release your information to the RIAA/MPAA.

You're never really "caught" until your ISP gives you up - I'd be sure that they didn't just turn your service back on and sell you down the river at the same time.

I used to download religiously and then I came to the conclusion that it just isn't worth the risk of doing it stupidly just to have whichever movies came out last week. There simply isn't any way to do it safely.

Don't download new movies, use private trackers and use Peer Guardian.
re: peer guardian, as a previous IT employee for Viacom, the IT dept was well aware of things like peer guardian. Since PG uses a block list, Viacom's knwon IPs are naturally blocked. Viacom doesn't do their own investigations, but contracts other companies who do so and are also aware of block lists. They examine the lists and use unlisted or public IPs. This obviously works for a short period of time until the IP is discovered and the list is updated.
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Last edited by Cynthetiq; 02-05-2008 at 06:57 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 02-05-2008, 07:33 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Can someone recommend a decent Hard Drive eraser?
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Old 02-05-2008, 08:32 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynthetiq
BUT can you imagine Skogafoss all pissed off because she can't get into play WoW and it's my fault? Not good for wife faction all because I wanted to see "Meet the Spartans" without paying for it.
Wife faction? Hilarious.

I'm not allowed to download unless everyone is already in bed or gone because of the WoW latency issue.

I think will has given the best advice here, though be advised that your ISP will most likely chew you out for not securing your network.
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Old 02-05-2008, 08:34 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
It's a good thing that you've had an open wireless network for a long time, thus providing an impossible burden of proof on Paramount. Obviously you can't be held responsible for what some dishonest person using your internet is doing, therefore you're innocent.

I'm sure it will be a simple matter calling up your ISP and explaining that you use an open wireless network and have no idea how often people get on.
I think this defense has been shot down in court. I believe the judge said something along the lines that leaving the network unsecured is negligent making the owner responsible for any and all traffic on the network.
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Old 02-05-2008, 08:46 AM   #14 (permalink)
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rekna
I think this defense has been shot down in court. I believe the judge said something along the lines that leaving the network unsecured is negligent making the owner responsible for any and all traffic on the network.
The MPAA and RIAA have tried to shoot it down since early 2007, but not once have they succeeded.

The crime is the breaking of copyright. If you didn't steal, you're not guilty of the theft. It'd be like someone shooting someone in your store and you being found guilty of murder... it doesn't work.
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Old 02-05-2008, 09:40 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fresnelly
Can someone recommend a decent Hard Drive eraser?

Dban 'nuff said.

http://dban.sourceforge.net/
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Old 02-05-2008, 09:53 AM   #16 (permalink)
Here
 
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You know what works really well too...


Renting the movie first. If you don't like it, you don't have to buy it.
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Old 02-05-2008, 09:58 AM   #17 (permalink)
Her Jay
 
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Location: Ontario for now....
I'm sure there is something in the TOS about leaving a network unsecured?

From one ISP in my area
Quote:
Originally Posted by TOS
(b) not to permit any other person to access the internet through your account or to divulge your account password to any other person
(d) to use the internet for lawful purposes only. Transmission of any material in violation of a Federal, Provincial, or local regulation is prohibited. This includes, but is not limited to, copyrighted material, material legally judged to be threatening or obscene, or material protected by trade secret. Investigation of you by any government body in relation to your use of the internet will be deemed to be a breach of this provision.
You're responsible for your account.
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Last edited by silent_jay; 02-05-2008 at 10:06 AM..
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Old 02-05-2008, 10:10 AM   #18 (permalink)
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silent_jay
I'm sure there is something in the TOS about leaving a network unsecured?

From one ISP in my area


You're responsible for your account.
"...not to permit.."? That's not clear wording. Do you have a link?

Edit: to clarify, what is "b" prefixed with? Is it "you are required" or something?

Last edited by Willravel; 02-05-2008 at 10:15 AM..
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Old 02-05-2008, 10:17 AM   #19 (permalink)
Her Jay
 
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Location: Ontario for now....
Not to permit= will not allow, beknownst or unbeknownst, seems pretty clear.

TOS is here http://www.nrtco.net/nrtc_terms_of_service.pdf

Paragraph 5 Section A and D
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Old 02-05-2008, 10:20 AM   #20 (permalink)
Please touch this.
 
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You can always go into a Warez irc channel and go "How do I get rid of this virus on my computer?"

Within a minute, you'll have a least 10 kids trying to take over your system. Maybe one succeeds.

Oh look, someone has commandeered my computer. Look, they're using it to perform illegal activities. It wasn't me!
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Old 02-05-2008, 10:32 AM   #21 (permalink)
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silent_jay
Not to permit= will not allow, beknownst or unbeknownst, seems pretty clear.
It's not clear in legaleese.
Quote:
Originally Posted by silent_jay
TOS is here http://www.nrtco.net/nrtc_terms_of_service.pdf

Paragraph 5 Section A and D
Quote:
USE OF INTERNET:
You agree not to permit any other person to access the internet through your account or to divulge your account password to any other person.
Ha, found you a loophole (besides Halx's, which is really good).

You're agreeing to not specifically permit (in other words give permission to) someone regarding the use of your account. It says nothing about someone using your account where your permission never has been given or denied. That's a clear loophole that even a layman could use.
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Old 02-05-2008, 10:36 AM   #22 (permalink)
Her Jay
 
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Location: Ontario for now....
Legal definition of permit
Quote:
permit 1) v. to allow by silence, agreement or giving a license.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/permit

Where was that loophole again?

Hal's excuse isn't good either, you're responsible for your account, doesn't matter if you 'say' some kid got into your account, you're responsible.
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Old 02-05-2008, 10:40 AM   #23 (permalink)
Please touch this.
 
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Then why is the RIAA not going after ISP's with lawsuits?
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Old 02-05-2008, 10:41 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Location: Ontario for now....
Indemnity clause at the link I posted Paragraph 8 Section A.
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Last edited by silent_jay; 02-05-2008 at 10:43 AM..
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Old 02-05-2008, 10:45 AM   #25 (permalink)
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
 
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Do you work for the RIAA?
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Old 02-05-2008, 10:49 AM   #26 (permalink)
Her Jay
 
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Location: Ontario for now....
Not that I'm aware of. Just a Canadian who likes to download his shows and movies, no RIAA for me, got to watch out for the fuckin CRIA.
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Last edited by silent_jay; 02-05-2008 at 10:52 AM..
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Old 02-05-2008, 10:51 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynthetiq
Not good for wife faction...
Yes, wife aggro is a terrible thing
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Old 02-05-2008, 10:55 AM   #28 (permalink)
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silent_jay
Legal definition of permit

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/permit

Where was that loophole again?
Allowing by silence still suggests knowledge. If someone goes on my open wifi, I have no idea.
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Old 02-05-2008, 10:59 AM   #29 (permalink)
Her Jay
 
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Location: Ontario for now....
It doesn't really matter how we interpret silence, it's how a judge would interpret silence.

If someone goes on your wifi, you may not have knowledge, but you were still silent, therefore your silence permitted them to use your wifi.
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Old 02-05-2008, 11:06 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Halx
Then why is the RIAA not going after ISP's with lawsuits?
Because ISPs can afford lawyers and won't just roll over and pay settlements.

This is the (MAF)IAA's business model these days: make money by suing customers.
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Old 02-05-2008, 11:10 AM   #31 (permalink)
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silent_jay
It doesn't really matter how we interpret silence, it's how a judge would interpret silence.

If someone goes on your wifi, you may not have knowledge, but you were still silent, therefore your silence permitted them to use your wifi.
You know that silence means that you know they're going on but you don't try to stop them, right? You're silent when you should be protesting. That's what it means. It has nothing to do with knowledge of the act. That's a separate issue.
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Old 02-05-2008, 11:10 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silent_jay
It doesn't really matter how we interpret silence, it's how a judge would interpret silence.

If someone goes on your wifi, you may not have knowledge, but you were still silent, therefore your silence permitted them to use your wifi.
And so you have violated the terms of your agreement with your service provider (at least as outlined in the TOS you cited). It does not necessarily follow that you are legally responsible for the downloading of the copyrighted content.
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Old 02-05-2008, 11:17 AM   #33 (permalink)
Her Jay
 
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Location: Ontario for now....
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapiens
And so you have violated the terms of your agreement with your service provider (at least as outlined in the TOS you cited). It does not necessarily follow that you are legally responsible for the downloading of the copyrighted content.
If you've violated the TOS then you're responsible for the material, it was done on your account, which you are responsible for, doesn't matter if you downloaded the material or not, if it was done on your account, it's your responsibility.

Quote:
You know that silence means that you know they're going on but you don't try to stop them, right? You're silent when you should be protesting. That's what it means. It has nothing to do with knowledge of the act. That's a separate issue.
Silence in this situation may mean that, depending on the persons interpretation of silence, you have your way, I'm sure a judge has a different way.
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Old 02-05-2008, 11:20 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Location: Some place windy
Quote:
Originally Posted by silent_jay
If you've violated the TOS then you're responsible for the material, it was done on your account, which you are responsible for, doesn't matter if you downloaded the material or not, if it was done on your account, it's your responsibility..
I disagree. It does suggest that the provider may not be responsible, but it does not necessarily establish that the individual who agreed to the terms of service is legally responsible (and accountable to the RIAA or MPAA).
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Old 02-05-2008, 11:30 AM   #35 (permalink)
Her Jay
 
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Location: Ontario for now....
If wifi is the excuse does he have a router with logs showing a separate mac address connecting that isn't him on that day?

ISP can prove their side of things can he?

QED
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Old 02-05-2008, 11:40 AM   #36 (permalink)
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silent_jay
If wifi is the excuse does he have a router with logs showing a separate mac address connecting that isn't him on that day?

ISP can prove their side of things can he?

QED
Not how it works. Innocent until proven guilty.
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Old 02-05-2008, 11:42 AM   #37 (permalink)
Junkie
 
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Location: Some place windy
Quote:
Originally Posted by silent_jay
If wifi is the excuse does he have a router with logs showing a separate mac address connecting that isn't him on that day?

ISP can prove their side of things can he?

QED
I was only speaking to the violation of the Terms of Service as evidence of copyright infringement. The civil agreement with your service provider (your TOS) seems separate from the arguments of whether or not he violated copyright law.

I agree with you that the wifi excuse seems weak. It seems like supplementing the argument with router logs would strengthen it.

(I'm no lawyer. that's why I keep saying "seems").
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Old 02-05-2008, 11:46 AM   #38 (permalink)
Her Jay
 
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Location: Ontario for now....
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapiens
(I'm no lawyer. that's why I keep saying "seems").
Me either, just throwing out ideas.

Seems if he agreed to the TOS, then he's responsible for the activity on the account, if the violation is copyright infringement, then he would be responsible because downloading copyrighted materials is covered in the TOS. That's my interpretation anyways, we need a lawyer on the forum to help us out here lol.
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Old 02-05-2008, 11:49 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Location: Spokane, WA
you're not required by law to put any sort of passkey/WEP/WPA whatever on your router
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Old 02-05-2008, 11:53 AM   #40 (permalink)
Her Jay
 
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Location: Ontario for now....
TOS with an ISP isn't a law, it's a service agreement between you and the ISP to use the internet responsibly.
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