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Old 02-06-2008, 12:26 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Seeds in the City - Cuba's urban agriculture


This is a movie about Cuba's urban gardens, they are living in a post Peak Oil world since 1990 and doing good. When the Soviet Union disappeared and they no longer got their shipments of oil and artificial fertilizers, they had to do without , no more large scale mechanized farming - a good thing for their environment

I can say they are 50 years ahead of the rest of the world, and one day they will thank Castro for not letting them be "capitalists" like the people in Haiti who eat dirt, while foreign companies grow crops for ethanol for export

They are lucky with their tropical climate that allows food to be grown all year.
What I like most is that artist who paints the food grown in the gardens and the fish from the ocean, it shows the link between man and nature, like those ancient people that painted the animals they hunted
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Old 02-06-2008, 01:05 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pai mei
I can say they are 50 years ahead of the rest of the world, and one day they will thank Castro for not letting them be "capitalists" like the people in Haiti who eat dirt, while foreign companies grow crops for ethanol for export
Mind if we make a bet about that?

The term tourist apartheid was coined in the early 1990s after Cuba first opened up to foreign tourists (q.v. tourism in Cuba).[1][2] The term describes the policy in Cuba, by which premiere resorts and the ability to purchase luxury goods at special tourist stores are offered exclusively to tourists.[3][4] A 1999 Human Rights Watch report stated [5] that "Cuban nationals are routinely barred from enjoying amenities open to foreigners ... the best hotels, resorts, beaches, and restaurants are off limits to most Cubans, as are certain government health institutions," and contrasts this practice with the Constitution of Cuba, which explicitly bars discrimination as contrary to human rights in Cuba.

Cuban president Fidel Castro described Cuba's tourism policies as an economic necessity and such a denomination as a "perfidious, perverse, cynical" campaign to present the current situation as "a case of discrimination."[6]
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Old 02-06-2008, 01:33 PM   #3 (permalink)
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The entire movie with better quality : http://www.stage6.com/user/fidelista...vived-Peak-Oil

You do not understand, this is about Peak Oil.
So what if those hotels are only for foreigners ? Cuba needs $ to import some stuff. I tell you that if there were no foreign tourist those hotels with their luxury would not be there.
I did not say Castro was not a dictator. But he cannot be compared to Kim from Coreea for example.
Do you know the story of the people from Haiti that eat dirt ? I am sure they have hotels and are allowed in if they can pay

Last edited by pai mei; 02-06-2008 at 01:35 PM..
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Old 02-06-2008, 03:56 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Yes I know this is about peak oil but 'better than Haiti', isn't a selling point.
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Old 02-06-2008, 04:25 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Better than Jamaica, Haiti, Dominican, indeed most Caribean and central American nations that are not international banking centres or inhabited by a bunch of white French guys.
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Old 02-06-2008, 04:26 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Look at the second link I gave there is the entire movie. You will see what Cubans think and how they bring back the values of community and simple life.

Cuba will be doing good while other nations will sink under their own "systems". Communism ended in dictatorships, but it created what is now in Cuba, when I see those people I say there is hope
Do not think that all the Cubans can' t wait to leave Cuba and live like slaves in some developed country, watch the movie and see that they often chose a simpler life

You see no problem in someone owning lots of land while people near him eat dirt ? Or you think that all the world will someday end up living like the US if they "work" ?
Good thing that IMF and World Bank do not help Cuba. They might end up like Haiti
Quote:
JOHN PERKINS: We economic hit men, during the last 30 or 40 years, have really created the world’s first truly global empire, and we’ve done this primarily through economics, and the military only coming in as a last resort. Therefore, it’s been done pretty much secretly. Most of the people in the United States have no idea that we’ve created this empire and, in fact, throughout the world it’s been done very quietly, unlike old empires, where the army marched in; it was obvious. So I think the significance of the things you discussed, the fact that over 80% of the population of South America recently voted in an anti-U.S. president and what’s going on at the World Trade Organization, and also, in fact, with the transit strike here in New York, is that people are beginning to understand that the middle class and the lower classes around the world are being terribly, terribly exploited by what I call the corporatocracy, which really runs this empire.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, before we move further, your experience with it? Explain the vantage point you come from. What does it mean to be an economic hit man?

JOHN PERKINS: Well, what we’ve done—we use many techniques, but probably the most common is that we’ll go to a country that has resources that our corporations covet, like oil, and we’ll arrange a huge loan to that country from an organization like the World Bank or one of its sisters, but almost all of the money goes to the U.S. corporations, not to the country itself, corporations like Bechtel and Halliburton, General Motors, General Electric, these types of organizations, and they build huge infrastructure projects in that country: power plants, highways, ports, industrial parks, things that serve the very rich and seldom even reach the poor. In fact, the poor suffer, because the loans have to be repaid, and they’re huge loans, and the repayment of them means that the poor won’t get education, health, and other social services, and the country is left holding a huge debt, by intention. We go back, we economic hit men, to this country and say, “Look, you owe us a lot of money. You can’t repay your debts, so give us a pound of flesh. Sell our oil companies your oil real cheap or vote with us at the next U.N. vote or send troops in support of ours to some place in the world such as Iraq.” And in that way, we’ve managed to build a world empire with very few people actually knowing that we’ve done this.

Last edited by pai mei; 02-06-2008 at 04:33 PM..
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Old 02-06-2008, 04:31 PM   #7 (permalink)
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That or we just go with other energy sources and our strong free market economies.

Cuba isn't 50 years ahead of anyone in anything.

They are subsisting as best they can in a poorly run socialist economy while surviving on tourist dollars and a thriving black market.

Being I don't buy into the Peak Oil scare, living in a pre-industrial economy doesn't impress me.
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Old 02-06-2008, 04:35 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Having neighbors that are your friends, and living simple and healthy does not impress you ?
Dollars cannot be eaten, the grow their own food and are allowed to be capitalists and sell it in the markets
See my signature:
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Old 02-06-2008, 05:13 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
They are subsisting as best they can in a poorly run socialist economy while surviving on tourist dollars and a thriving black market.

Being I don't buy into the Peak Oil scare, living in a pre-industrial economy doesn't impress me.
It might be true that Cuba has some problems in regards to technology and social policy (which country doesn't?), but I'm a bit impressed with what this island nation has been able to do given their circumstances (post-Soviet collapse) and resources (an island nation; trade embargoes, etc).

From "Revolution vs globalization - Cuba"
Indeed Cubans appear healthy and adequately nourished. The State still provides milk to children under five and liberal maternity leave. The infant-mortality rate is equal to that of the US. By any basic living-standard or quality-of-life measurement, Cuba is leagues ahead of most developing nations. Recently UNESCO cited Cuba for some of the highest achievements on international tests administered to school-age children. In mathematics and language achievement many Cuban elementary students scored higher than their counterparts in the US, Europe and Japan.
From CBC Television's In Cuba: The Accidental Revolution
[...] the country has been blockaded since 1961, but today Cuba has the highest quality of life in the region, the highest life expectancy, and one of the highest literacy rates in all of Latin America.
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Old 02-06-2008, 05:20 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Of all nations in the region, only Barbados ranks higher in the Human Development Index (a combination of many factors including life expectancy, health and education, economic well being, etc).

Cuba is at No. 51 - ahead of Mexico, Panama, St. Kitts, Belize, Jamaica, etc.
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Old 02-06-2008, 05:45 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highthief
Of all nations in the region, only Barbados ranks higher in the Human Development Index (a combination of many factors including life expectancy, health and education, economic well being, etc).

Cuba is at No. 51 - ahead of Mexico, Panama, St. Kitts, Belize, Jamaica, etc.
I looked up that list.

Its one of those feel good things but even so the Bahamas' are ranked 49, and Costa Rica 48.

It also has the US as 12th because, in their own words, "The human development index gives a more complete picture than income" so in other words they decide what the important factors are and weight them as they feel they should be. For example we take a beating on climate change, boo hoo :P
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Old 02-06-2008, 05:53 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
"The human development index gives a more complete picture than income" so in other words they decide what the important factors are and weight them as they feel they should be. For example we take a beating on climate change, boo hoo :P
Climate change aside, do you think such things as "greater access to knowledge, better nutrition and health services, more secure livelihoods, security against crime and physical violence, satisfying leisure hours, political and cultural freedoms and sense of participation in community activities" aren't important factors?

You aren't one of those GDP-or-nothing guys are you?
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Old 02-06-2008, 06:14 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
It also has the US as 12th because, in their own words, "The human development index gives a more complete picture than income" so in other words they decide what the important factors are and weight them as they feel they should be. For example we take a beating on climate change, boo hoo :P
So, the list is invalid because the USA is not ranked higher?
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Old 02-06-2008, 06:37 PM   #14 (permalink)
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So, the list is invalid because the USA is not ranked higher?
A few weeks ago it was published that for the first time in about 50 years the UK has a higher standard of living than the US.

The factors used didn't take into account purchasing power, which is far greater in the US. So while based on their criteria the US has a lower standard of living than the UK, I'd also call it invalid.

No I'm saying its not necessarily valid as they weigh whats important according to what THEY feel is important. I'd also be willing to bet that all the information was not gathered independently by the group but they rely on internal government sources, something communists are not well known for keeping accurate. The Soviet Union often claimed they had better access to health care and more doctors per person than in the US, yet their facilities were horrible and their doctors were incompetent by western standards.

By looking a bit more closely at how they get the HDI, its life expectancy, literacy, education enrollment, and GDP.

Cuba scores #2 in literacy #32 in life expectancy, #35 in education and 94 in GDP.

So they have people in their state run schools, a high literacy rate (#1 was Georgia where apparently no one is illiterate), decent life expectancy and poor on the GDP.

Combined it really doesn't mean that much as freedom, human rights, the quality of the education etc isn't taken into account.

I won't argue they are worthless numbers as a composite but they don't mean a whole heck of a lot either.

Even at face value, it means 3 of the countries in the region are 'better', 4 if you count the United States, not 1 like you said.
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Old 02-06-2008, 07:51 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I just think it's absurd that I'm reading someone who is trying to convince me that Cuba is better than us.
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Old 02-06-2008, 08:12 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Seaver
I just think it's absurd that I'm reading someone who is trying to convince me that Cuba is better than us.
What? You're from Haiti?
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Old 02-07-2008, 02:22 AM   #17 (permalink)
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GDP does not matter. Who cares about GDP ?
People that grow their own food an are happy and stress free, that is what matters.
What freedom are you talking about ? To hold elections or what ? Let's say elections really succeed in putting at the helm of a nation the best possible leader, chosen from all the people of that country. Then what ?
Or are you looking for the freedom to become a leader ? Try to become president of your country you will see you do not have that freedom. And this leader thing is just an illusion the same as the illusion that more "stuff" brings happiness
Watch "Comandante" by Oliver Stone
http://www.bbc.co.uk/films/2003/09/3...nterview.shtml

Quote:
If you had 30 hours with George W Bush, what would you be trying to get out of him?

The truth: I don't think it's possible to get 30 hours with Bush. I think he's scared of the camera. I saw a documentary with a young woman he did, and he just joshes with her all the time. He never confronts anybody, and he never looks you in the eye. It's all "Hey buddy, how are yah?" all that American slang language. It's not dialogue, it's not feeling. He has a shallow manner, which is a complete contradiction to Castro. Castro will talk to you. He's a real human being. I see George Bush as a synthetic person. As I once said, he's an ex-alcoholic who believes in Jesus. What could be more dangerous!

What I want as material goods are :shelter and food, I don't care about anything else. I hope that people caught in the "western culture" get all they want : money and stuff, and I hope they get so much of them that they realize that is not what they really want
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Old 02-07-2008, 05:41 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Enjoy your grass hut and bushmeat.

Sorry subsistence agriculture is not 50 years ahead its 5000 years behind.
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Old 02-07-2008, 06:15 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ustwo
Enjoy your grass hut and bushmeat.

Sorry subsistence agriculture is not 50 years ahead its 5000 years behind.
Well, that all depends on what happens in 50 years, doesn't it?

Oh, and by the by, bushmeat isn't produced by subsistence agriculture.
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Old 02-07-2008, 08:38 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ustwo

Even at face value, it means 3 of the countries in the region are 'better', 4 if you count the United States, not 1 like you said.
The US is part of the Caribean and Central America?

You're worse off than I thought ...
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Old 02-07-2008, 08:55 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by highthief
The US is part of the Caribean and Central America?

You're worse off than I thought ...


You lumped in Mexico, I assume based on racism or perhaps language.

I lumped in the US since its RIGHT NEXT TO CUBA.

Yet I'm worse off then you thought?

Please girlfriend, you misread the list.
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Old 02-07-2008, 12:10 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo


You lumped in Mexico, I assume based on racism or perhaps language.


Mexico is there, little man, because Mexico is geographically considered part of Central America.

The US is geographically part of North America.
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Old 02-07-2008, 12:16 PM   #23 (permalink)
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