Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community  

Go Back   Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community > Chatter > General Discussion


View Poll Results: How do you feel about the FLDS and their form of polygamy?
Within the scope of US freedoms, and protected by the constitution through freedom of religion. 3 9.38%
I don't have an opinion. 3 9.38%
Should be stopped. 26 81.25%
Voters: 32. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 04-07-2008, 09:23 AM   #1 (permalink)
Eat your vegetables
 
genuinegirly's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: Arabidopsis-ville
Polygamy Compound Release

How does this make you feel?

Quote:
219 children, women taken from sect's ranch
ELDORADO, Texas (CNN) -- More than 200 women and children have been removed from a Texas ranch that's home to members of a polygamist sect, but authorities have not identified the girl who called them with allegations of abuse.

The 16-year-old girl, who called authorities last week with allegations of physical and sexual abuse at the compound, may be in the group and using a different name, Marleigh Meisner, a spokeswoman for Texas Child Protective Services, said at a news conference Sunday.

"I am confident that this girl does indeed exist," Meisner said. "I am confident that the allegations that she brought forth are accurate."

Since Thursday, authorities have removed 159 children and 60 adults from the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS) compound in Eldorado, Texas. Watch buses take girls from compound

Eighteen of the girls have been taken into state custody. Authorities believe all "had been abused or were at immediate risk of future abuse," a state spokesman said.

The others are now housed at a shelter in San Angelo -- about 45 miles north of Eldorado -- where they are being questioned about abuse, Meisner said.

"It's certainly emotional for the children, but they are with caretakers -- people that they're accustomed to being with -- at the time," Meisner said. Many of the adults at the shelter are parents or relatives of the children, she said. Watch Eldorado residents react to the removals

Warren Jeffs, the 52-year-old leader and "prophet" of the 10,000-member FLDS, was convicted in Utah last year on two counts of being an accomplice to rape, charges related to a marriage he performed in 2001. He still faces trial in Arizona on eight charges of sexual conduct with a minor, incest and conspiracy.

Critics of the sect say it forces girls as young as 13 into arranged marriages. Watch why police want every child removed

Meisner said the adults cooperated with child protection officials as authorities continued their search for more children.

An arrest warrant was served last week for Dale Evans Barlow, 50, who authorities believe fathered a child with a 16-year-old girl he had married. As of Saturday night, Barlow had not been found, and child welfare workers could not confirm whether the girl or her child had been found.

The rogue church bought 1,900 acres near Eldorado four years ago and built what it calls the YFZ Ranch. It is now home to as many as 400 members who moved from compounds in Arizona and Utah.

YFZ is a reference to a song written by Jeffs, "Yearning For Zion."

Previous visits by CNN revealed the ranch was guarded by armed men equipped with night-vision gear and other high-tech surveillance tools to prevent intruders.
The Facts:
This is not just an issue in Texas. Places like this compound still exist in Utah and Arizona. There are also several large Colonies in Mexico.

In 1890, the president of the LDS church called an end to polygamy. Since then, any practicing polygamist has been excommunicated from the LDS church. The FLDS church was founded during this era. At one point, the FLDS had strongholds stretching from southern Canada, through Wyoming, Utah, Arizona, and into Mexico. They regularly smuggled their polygomist leaders from one settlement to the next, over state and federal lines, in an attempt to protect them from the law.

My Opinion:
I am mad and disturbed that people allow this lifestyle to continue. Forced polygamy, as practiced by the FLDS needs to be stopped.
I wonder why it has taken so long for this group to be taken down. I am relieved that the police finally came to the rescue of what I view as prisoners. My cousin, who lives in Utah, and is devout LDS (not FLDS) explained once to me how she would go to extreme lengths to pick up any woman hitchiker, because they were most likely escaping an FLDS compound. She actively supported a couple of organizations that worked to provide women escaping from this life with proper healthcare, counseling, and housing.
__________________
"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy
genuinegirly is offline  
Old 04-07-2008, 09:38 AM   #2 (permalink)
has a plan
 
Hain's Avatar
 
Location: middle of Whywouldanyonebethere
I don't like the wording of the question of this thread at all. I am also not in possession of all the facts...

I am going to give my gut feeling first: polygamy is OK. If you can get multiple women willing to marry you, good for you.

Beating people is not OK. Forcing women in to polygamy is not OK. If this practice is still going on you can change my vote to "Should be stopped."

If this is the truth then I have been educated.
__________________
Hain is offline  
Old 04-07-2008, 09:40 AM   #3 (permalink)
Eat your vegetables
 
genuinegirly's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: Arabidopsis-ville
What facts would you like? I'll hunt them down for you.

As it stands, you have an article in front of you that indicates there is at least one 16-year old girl who has escaped a frightening situation in which she was married to an older man with multiple wives against her will.

Honestly, I'll get more facts and throw them out there if you'd like them. Perhaps I am wrong to assume others are not as well-versed on this topic.
__________________
"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

Last edited by genuinegirly; 04-07-2008 at 09:42 AM..
genuinegirly is offline  
Old 04-07-2008, 10:02 AM   #4 (permalink)
Eponymous
 
jewels's Avatar
 
Location: Central Central Florida
Plenty of info for me.

Children are not capable of making adult decisions. Period.

It's clear abuse of power, abuse of children, abuse of religion.

Besides, why would they need armed guards if they knew their behavior was legal? If adult women want to be a part of this, that's fine. As long as no prodding was required, they can make their own decisions.
__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain
jewels is offline  
Old 04-07-2008, 10:03 AM   #5 (permalink)
Insane
 
savmesom11's Avatar
 
Genuinegirly: My cousin, who lives in Utah, and is devout LDS (not FLDS).


Thank you for stating this sentence. I have family who are deeply faithful to the LDS/Mormon religion but DO NOT practice any of the outrageous customs that the FLDS do. Sometimes when people hear the mere mention of Mormon or Church of Latter Day Saints they think they are all that way.

As for my personal opinion: Polygamy is right in line with human trafficking and slavery. If you choose to live a certain way then that is your right however; these woman rarely choose to live like this.
__________________
* I do not believe that struggles are a sign of life falling apart, but rather a step of life falling into place. *
savmesom11 is offline  
Old 04-07-2008, 10:15 AM   #6 (permalink)
Please touch this.
 
Halx's Avatar
 
Owner/Admin
Location: Manhattan
Remember that "What's your anti-drug?" campaign?

Stories like these are my "What's your anti-god?" response.

Bunch of people using a stretchy concept to justify their perversion. That's a general statement, too. FLDS leaders may like to have a lot of women. LDS leaders certainly like to have a lot of money. Same with evangelists. Ahh hell.. this is a tired subject.
__________________
You have found this post informative.
-The Administrator
[Don't Feed The Animals]
Halx is offline  
Old 04-07-2008, 10:17 AM   #7 (permalink)
More Than You Expect
 
Manic_Skafe's Avatar
 
Location: Queens
I don't agree with polygamy but I don't think pulling all of those children out will make any real significant difference towards correcting the polygamist mindset instilled in them.

Prosecute those that have obviously broken the law and help those that actually want to leave. Everything else seems to be a waste of effort.

And also, Big Love rocks!
__________________
"Porn is a zoo of exotic animals that becomes boring upon ownership." -Nersesian
Manic_Skafe is offline  
Old 04-07-2008, 10:27 AM   #8 (permalink)
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
 
Willravel's Avatar
 
I don't have any issue with polygamy. If people are happy and aren't hurting anyone it's not my place to say if they're right or wrong.

I am, of course, opposed to the idea of sex with minors and forced sex. Those aren't inexcusable and should not be tolerated.

Let's not suggest that these are always one and the same, though. I know of several polygamous relationships that are very happy and healthy. In those cases it seems reasonable to me to allow those people to continue to be happy and to flourish in their collective relationship(s?). Condemning polygamy seems kinda prudish and closed minded. I wonder if polygamy will become the new "gay" in the coming years where polygamous rights are fought for. If that is the case, expect me to fight for what I believe is right, just as in the cases of homosexual rights.
Willravel is offline  
Old 04-07-2008, 11:29 AM   #9 (permalink)
Pissing in the cornflakes
 
Ustwo's Avatar
 
I'm rather concerned that an anonymous non-verified complaint can give federal agents the power to invade your property and take your children from you.

I think such societies do end up almost invariably in statutory rape, and they can be difficult to get away from, but there is a line that seemed to be crossed when just the suspicion is enough for the government to do something like this.

"I am confident that this girl does indeed exist," Meisner said. "I am confident that the allegations that she brought forth are accurate."

She better damn well exist and they better damn well be accurate.
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.
Ustwo is offline  
Old 04-07-2008, 11:31 AM   #10 (permalink)
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
 
Willravel's Avatar
 
Good point Ustwo. (hell freezing over)

What judge would have signed a warrant where the victim's existence was in question?
Willravel is offline  
Old 04-07-2008, 12:03 PM   #11 (permalink)
has all her shots.
 
mixedmedia's Avatar
 
Location: Florida
Jon Krakauer wrote an excellent expose about the FLDS church in 2003, Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith. (It's irrelevant, but one of my first posts here at TFP was on this same subject. )

The book has firsthand accounts of life inside these compounds and speaks extensively about Warren Jeffs and his father and predecessor, Rulon, who died at the age of 92, the proud husband of 75 wives and 65 childrens. Why here he is now with two of his, right, you guessed it - wives:

I've taken this picture out because I'm an idiot and I'm not sure at all that those girls were 18. doh.

The book will leave very little doubt as to whether we should be intervening in these groups. Polygamy isn't even the issue. It is the coercion of young girls into these marriages where they are given no choice over their own lives. The physical, sexual and emotional abuse of girls runs rampant through these communities as you might imagine in a society where total patriarchal control of their lives is the standard. They grow up knowing they will have no choices. And the church encourages families (even through intimidation and threats) to completely estrange anyone who leaves the church. It's really an interesting book and highlights a lot of facets of this cult that you might not ordinarily think about.

So again, consensual polygamy is, to me, totally irrelevant to this issue.

The book also goes extensively into how their societies and governance works and it will leave you wondering how the hell this is allowed to go on in this country. And for all you conservatives here, you will especially love the part of the book that discusses the huge burden these families put on the welfare system while they actively dissent and demonize the US government. It's a million laughs.
__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Last edited by mixedmedia; 04-07-2008 at 06:10 PM..
mixedmedia is offline  
Old 04-07-2008, 12:13 PM   #12 (permalink)
Who You Crappin?
 
Derwood's Avatar
 
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
immediately thought of "Survivor" by Chuck Pahluniak
Derwood is offline  
Old 04-07-2008, 12:28 PM   #13 (permalink)
Pissing in the cornflakes
 
Ustwo's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mixedmedia
And for all you conservatives here, you will especially love the part of the book that discusses the huge burden these families put on the welfare system while they actively dissent and demonize the US government. It's a million laughs.
Actually I know a mormon who was a doctor in school and on welfare for his pregnant wife.

He was a democrat too, which is rare for them, but a different topic.
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.
Ustwo is offline  
Old 04-07-2008, 12:32 PM   #14 (permalink)
has all her shots.
 
mixedmedia's Avatar
 
Location: Florida
I am talking about the FLDS church in which there are men supporting double digit wives and children and defrauding the government to do so.

Oh, and tax evasion as a religious statement against our demonic government is quite common, too.

You ought to read the book. It's very enlightening.
__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce
mixedmedia is offline  
Old 04-07-2008, 12:58 PM   #15 (permalink)
Eat your vegetables
 
genuinegirly's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: Arabidopsis-ville
Quote:
Originally Posted by mixedmedia

So again, consensual polygamy is, to me, totally irrelevant to this issue.
Thanks, mixedmedia - hit it right on with that statement.

I support anyone who chooses polyandry, polygyny, and other poly lifestyles.

This thread was not started with the intent to bash any of said lifestyles.

I am deeply sorry if I have offended anyone by not stating this at the get-go.
__________________
"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy
genuinegirly is offline  
Old 04-07-2008, 01:17 PM   #16 (permalink)
Pissing in the cornflakes
 
Ustwo's Avatar
 
Interestingly from a genetic stand point, these men's lines will live on and perhaps become the dominant genes in the future.

When its all said and done, I will have two children with my gene's unless my wife and I have a change of heart on that, and the one in the picture has 65.

Darwin approves, at least in a reproductive sense.
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.
Ustwo is offline  
Old 04-07-2008, 02:34 PM   #17 (permalink)
Psycho
 
StellaLuna's Avatar
 
Location: hiding behind wings
Thanks for the statement "their form of polygamy." I actually just had this discussion with a dear friend of mine this morning, regarding my relationship. I have two people I love deeply and would marry in a minute, but am not legally allowed to do so. The kicker is, we're all consenting adults, not a group of scared teenagers who are told "Do it or God will punish you!" It makes me sick to my stomach to hear about the girls who live in that situation, and on the flip side of that coin it makes me furious that people hear "polygamy" and think "child abuse" because of people like this.

Thanks, FLDS!
__________________
Screw tradition!
StellaLuna is offline  
Old 04-07-2008, 03:43 PM   #18 (permalink)
Eat your vegetables
 
genuinegirly's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: Arabidopsis-ville
Another article from CNN today, I've highlighted a few points.

Quote:
Texas takes legal custody of 401 sect children

(CNN) -- Authorities said Monday they have taken legal custody of 401 children who lived on an isolated West Texas polygamist retreat built by imprisoned "prophet" Warren Jeffs.

The children are being kept at a temporary shelter at historic Fort Concho in nearby San Angelo while authorities investigate whether a child bride gave birth on the ranch at age 15.

The children in state custody are joined at the shelter by 133 women, most of them mothers, who were taken during the past few days from the sprawling Yearning for Zion ranch, said Marleigh Meisner, a spokeswoman for the state's Child Protective Services agency.

The women are free to return to the 1,900-acre compound, officials said, but many have chosen to remain. At this point, officials said, the children's fathers are not permitted to see them.

Court proceedings began Monday to determine whether there is enough evidence to remove the children from their homes on the ranch, which is near Eldorado, Meisner said. A hearing is scheduled April 17.

The children will be appointed lawyers and legal guardians in about two weeks, she added.

Meisner said the temporary shelter is filling up quickly, and officials are facing a "critical shortage" of foster homes. Officials will try to keep siblings together, she added.

Law enforcement officials would not provide many details of their investigation, but Meisner said the 401 court affidavits being filed Monday should shed some light on the alleged abuse
Quote:
Investigators said they believe more children will be found at the ranch, but Mange stopped short of saying they were being hidden.

Authorities would not say whether they have located or identified the teen tipster whose call prompted the raid.

On March 31, a 16-year-old called and reported physical and sexual abuse on the ranch, authorities said. She said she was married to a 50-year-old man. Authorities are looking for evidence the girl had a child at the age of 15.

It remains unclear whether the girl who reported being abused is among the children being interviewed -- or was whisked away from the compound under a different name before authorities arrived.

"I am confident that this girl does indeed exist," Meisner said earlier. "I am confident that the allegations that she brought forth are accurate."

One issue compounding an already difficult and sensitive investigation is the difficulty pinning down exact names and ages of the people being interviewed -- as well as of the people being sought.
Quote:
The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints bought the ranch four years ago and began erecting dormitories and a large, white temple. Hundreds of Jeffs' followers moved from Arizona and Utah as authorities there stepped up their investigations.
Quote:
Authorities began blocking roads to the YFZ ranch Thursday, then raided the compound and began busing women and children off the property. Most were girls, and most wore hand-sewn prairie dresses.
Quote:
Officers entered the compound with a search warrant for 50-year-old Dale Evans Barlow, who they believed was married to the 16-year-old tipster.
Quote:
Barlow's probation officer, Bill Loader, told The Salt Lake Tribune in Utah that he was in Arizona and did not know his accuser.

Quote:
Jeffs remains jailed in Kingman, Arizona, where he awaits trial on four counts of incest and sexual conduct with a minor stemming from two arranged marriages between teenage girls and their older male relatives.
Quote:
Jeffs was sentenced in November to two terms of 5 years to life for being an accomplice to the rape of a 14-year-old girl who said she was forced to marry her cousin.
Augi, I think those 401 court affidavits might have some of what you're looking for.
__________________
"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy
genuinegirly is offline  
Old 04-07-2008, 08:18 PM   #19 (permalink)
MSD
The sky calls to us ...
 
MSD's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: CT
This isn't about polygamy, it's about a castle in the middle of Texas where "religious" people can go to have a harem of brainwashed wives and molest kids. If Warren Jeffs had been there, this would have been Waco II; just look at the design of the place, it's a castle with a wide courtyard and high, narrow windows, exactly where you'd want to be to defend against an attacking army. They allegedly had weapons stockpiled, but everyone is lucky they didn't get used.
MSD is offline  
Old 04-08-2008, 05:09 AM   #20 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: bedford, tx
Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
Good point Ustwo. (hell freezing over)

What judge would have signed a warrant where the victim's existence was in question?
99% of the judges would sign said warrant because they would have no culpability in any wrongdoing....because it's better 'safe' than sorry. a result of our wanting the government to take care of us.
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."
dksuddeth is offline  
Old 04-08-2008, 05:50 AM   #21 (permalink)
Junkie
 
filtherton's Avatar
 
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
I'm not sure where the founding fathers stood on child molestation. In light of their stances on whether nonwhites were people, I'm not sure I want to know. That being said, I don't think the right to express your religious convictions should extend to sexual abuse.

I also don't necessarily have a problem with the government following up on a tip of child sexual abuse.
filtherton is offline  
Old 04-08-2008, 05:55 AM   #22 (permalink)
has all her shots.
 
mixedmedia's Avatar
 
Location: Florida
Quote:
Originally Posted by dksuddeth
99% of the judges would sign said warrant because they would have no culpability in any wrongdoing....because it's better 'safe' than sorry. a result of our wanting the government to take care of us.
Perhaps, but this stuff has been going on plain view for a long, long, long time. People have written books about it, made documentaries about it - we've even had tv movies made about it, for pete's sake.

I'm telling you guys, read the book and you'll be asking yourself why it took so long.


Amazon.com: Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith: Jon Krakauer: Books Amazon.com: Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith: Jon Krakauer: Books

One reason why, that I learned from this book was because of a raid that happened in the 1950's that gained a lot of negative attention. Therefore, there has been a hands-off attitude on the behalf of law enforcement.

But I think the nature of the marriages has become much more perverse as they have been more and more isolated and more and more interbred over the succeeding decades.

The right thing has been done here. Finally.

Oh, and everyone's probably aware, but Jon Krakauer is a respected journalist (Into the Wild, Into Thin Air) and not some scandal-mongerer.
__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Last edited by mixedmedia; 04-08-2008 at 05:57 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
mixedmedia is offline  
Old 04-08-2008, 07:26 AM   #23 (permalink)
Pissing in the cornflakes
 
Ustwo's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mixedmedia
Perhaps, but this stuff has been going on plain view for a long, long, long time. People have written books about it, made documentaries about it - we've even had tv movies made about it, for pete's sake.

I'm telling you guys, read the book and you'll be asking yourself why it took so long.


http://www.amazon.com/Under-Banner-H.../dp/0385509510

One reason why, that I learned from this book was because of a raid that happened in the 1950's that gained a lot of negative attention. Therefore, there has been a hands-off attitude on the behalf of law enforcement.

But I think the nature of the marriages has become much more perverse as they have been more and more isolated and more and more interbred over the succeeding decades.

The right thing has been done here. Finally.

Oh, and everyone's probably aware, but Jon Krakauer is a respected journalist (Into the Wild, Into Thin Air) and not some scandal-mongerer.
Actually if you go back to my original post, I'm of the opinion that these groups are almost always involved in statutory rape.

Its not so much was the right thing done, its was it done for the right reason.

I also think most hippies are pot smokers, so does that mean its ok if someone anonymously says there is a stash of pot at one of the few remaining communes and they do a drug raid based on this anonymous phone call, where they search the entire compound and question everyone about it?

With all the whining these days about the patriot act, I'm surprised so few of the same people who decry that as somehow stepping on the constitution think something like this is ok.

Do I think these people are guilty? Hell ya, bunch of wack jobs in my book, but due process is a price you pay to be free, and if that means you have to actually have a case against the wack jobs thats more than an anonymous phonecall, before you cart everyone off and separate fathers from their children so be it.
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.
Ustwo is offline  
Old 04-08-2008, 08:02 AM   #24 (permalink)
has all her shots.
 
mixedmedia's Avatar
 
Location: Florida
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
Actually if you go back to my original post, I'm of the opinion that these groups are almost always involved in statutory rape.

Its not so much was the right thing done, its was it done for the right reason.

I also think most hippies are pot smokers, so does that mean its ok if someone anonymously says there is a stash of pot at one of the few remaining communes and they do a drug raid based on this anonymous phone call, where they search the entire compound and question everyone about it?

With all the whining these days about the patriot act, I'm surprised so few of the same people who decry that as somehow stepping on the constitution think something like this is ok.

Do I think these people are guilty? Hell ya, bunch of wack jobs in my book, but due process is a price you pay to be free, and if that means you have to actually have a case against the wack jobs thats more than an anonymous phonecall, before you cart everyone off and separate fathers from their children so be it.
I understand this and can agree with it.

And you'll have to pardon me because I have not been following the current story all that closely. Are they telling the news media all the facts that led to the warrant and what they found when they got there?

You're right in that, if it comes out in the days ahead that this warrant was issued based solely on an anonymous phone call, then I will be a hypocrit for thinking it was still the right thing to do and that it could open the door for actions that I would find egregiously improper. Therefore, if indeed the warrant was issued improperly, it would be proper for any prosecutions that may go forward from this raid to be thrown out of court - as regrettable as that would be. But I will not regret the spotlight that is being focused on this group and will hope that the next time they do it right.

You're right, it's a slippery slope politically. I can only hope at this point that we haven't been told all of the facts.
__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce
mixedmedia is offline  
Old 04-08-2008, 08:32 AM   #25 (permalink)
Pissing in the cornflakes
 
Ustwo's Avatar
 
Well that didn't take long...

Quote:
SAN ANGELO, Texas - For the first time, the FLDS have responded to the state raid on the YFZ Ranch that began last Thursday and just now is nearing completion.
In five filings released Monday, Isaac Jeffs and Merrill Jessop said the sect's constitutional rights were violated in a massive search that was overly broad and vague in its focus.
Merrill Jessop oversees the ranch and its residents. Isaac Jeffs is the brother of Warren S. Jeffs, who led the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints until he was convicted last year of two counts of being an accomplice to rape.
Isaac Jeffs was with his brother when Warren S. Jeffs was arrested outside Las Vegas in 2006. The charges against Warren S. Jeffs were based on a marriage he conducted between a 14-year-old girl and her 19-year-old cousin in 2001.
Attorneys Evan Pierce-Jones and Nathan Butler, of San Angelo, and Patrick T. Peranteau, of San Antonio, are representing Jessop and Isaac Jeffs, who also filed documents objecting to the raid on behalf of the FLDS Church.
A hearing is set for Wednesday before 51st District Judge Barbara Walther to hear the men's motions.
The men say it is "impossible" that the sealed affidavit that triggered the investigation at the ranch listed sufficient evidence to search "each and every residence, structure, school, vehicle, place of business,
temple or other facility."
The filing describes the ranch as an "unincorporated city or neighborhood of 300 to 400 residents" that includes single and multiple family homes, a doctor's office, a cheese manufacturing plant, a cement plant and other buildings spread over 1,691 acres.
The men also point out that the arrest and search warrants targeting Dale Barlow are moot since he has been located in Colorado City, Ariz.
The motions, which were filed Saturday at 11 a.m., also objected to law officers entering the temple located on the ranch.
FLDS members "consider it a desecration of one of their holiest sites for a non-member to enter their temple," it said. "Such a desecration would be irreparable."
A second document said the temple contains no birth, marriage or other records listed in the search warrant and that the Texas Constitution "will not permit the rummaging through of a sanctified religious sanctuary . . . any more than it would permit authorities to rummage through the Vatican."
It said the temple has six gates that could be easily secured for a brief period - suggesting that the FLDS were willing to let the officers enter the building briefly.
About 12 hours later, a SWAT team did enter the temple and took just five minutes to secure it.
Allison Palmer, assistant district attorney for the 51st District, filed a response that said neither men has standing or a legal right to participate in the matter or an expectation of privacy on the ranch. She also said arguments to suppress evidence seized are premature.
Meanwhile in Arizona, Mohave County Chief Probation Officer Friendly Walker said he has not been informed of any warrants for Barlow's arrest. As of Monday night, Walker believed Barlow was still free.
"I've got a call into detectives [in Texas] to find out what's going on," Walker said.
http://www.sltrib.com/faith/ci_8847459

Its hard to have sympathy for these people, and I don't, but I think there needs to be a way of monitoring separatists for illegal activities without trampling on their rights.

I don't know where that happy medium is.
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.
Ustwo is offline  
Old 04-08-2008, 08:38 AM   #26 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: bedford, tx
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
Its hard to have sympathy for these people, and I don't, but I think there needs to be a way of monitoring separatists for illegal activities without trampling on their rights.

I don't know where that happy medium is.
There isn't and there can't be. People either have rights, or they don't. The way things have been sliding down the slope, now all one needs to do is make an anonymous phone call about drugs, guns, child abuse/neglect, or some other socially repugnant issue and tada, an instant SWAT raid on your home. Hooray for freedom, you get to have your door ripped off it's hinges, automatic weapons pointed at the faces of your family members, try on high grade handcuffs, lay on the ground for an hour or more, and all while the police get to ransack every room in your home until they find evidence of any crime. THEN, if nothing is found, you'll get to be released, usually with no apology, and then have to salvage what's left of your personal belongings, pride, and humanity as you try to assuage your families terror of having armed people swarm your home while you tell them they just wanted to 'protect' you.
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."
dksuddeth is offline  
Old 04-08-2008, 11:30 AM   #27 (permalink)
Pissing in the cornflakes
 
Ustwo's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dksuddeth
There isn't and there can't be. People either have rights, or they don't. The way things have been sliding down the slope, now all one needs to do is make an anonymous phone call about drugs, guns, child abuse/neglect, or some other socially repugnant issue and tada, an instant SWAT raid on your home. Hooray for freedom, you get to have your door ripped off it's hinges, automatic weapons pointed at the faces of your family members, try on high grade handcuffs, lay on the ground for an hour or more, and all while the police get to ransack every room in your home until they find evidence of any crime. THEN, if nothing is found, you'll get to be released, usually with no apology, and then have to salvage what's left of your personal belongings, pride, and humanity as you try to assuage your families terror of having armed people swarm your home while you tell them they just wanted to 'protect' you.
Well thats true and not true.

I agree with you for the most part. The difference between these kids and 'normal' kids is that they are never outside of their parents/church influence. If someone is abusing a child in main stream society they are often caught due to a doctor visit, how they act in school, just something they say in passing to a stranger can trigger a red flag. I was required by law to report ANYTHING that looked like abuse or neglect while working a free clinic, and there were a few cases that seemed pretty borderline on that I had to deal with.

Now I have no real issue with the concept of home schooling, or even a religious community, but I would not have a libertarian hissy fit if basic level competency exams were mandated for home schooled children at certain ages to prove they were in fact getting an education and at the same time look for at least overt signs of abuse.
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.
Ustwo is offline  
Old 04-08-2008, 11:43 AM   #28 (permalink)
Junkie
 
kutulu's Avatar
 
It's not as if the Feds knew nothing about the place. The compound has been under the eye of the feds since they started building it. They have been openly marrying preteens to grown men for decades. Early teenage boys get tossed out of town.
kutulu is offline  
Old 04-08-2008, 12:44 PM   #29 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: bedford, tx
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
Now I have no real issue with the concept of home schooling, or even a religious community, but I would not have a libertarian hissy fit if basic level competency exams were mandated for home schooled children at certain ages to prove they were in fact getting an education and at the same time look for at least overt signs of abuse.
not sure about other states, but TX does require testing for competency in home school environments, and I actually agree that they should be done.
Unless children are not allowed outside at all (I know that in 'compounds' this would be difficult) then some signs of actual abuse should be noticable.
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."
dksuddeth is offline  
Old 04-08-2008, 04:12 PM   #30 (permalink)
...is a comical chap
 
Grasshopper Green's Avatar
 
Location: Where morons reign supreme
I have a real problem with the FLDS brand of polygamy. These type of communities are rife with abuse and coerced marriage. Small polygamist communities exist all over Utah but nothing is ever done about it. If an adult woman chooses to enter into a polygamist marriage...great, I don't have a problem with that. A 13 or 14 year old girl is not mature enough to make that decision, nor is she mature enough to be having a baby that young. I'm glad this happened and it's about damn time, IMO.
__________________
"They say that patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings; steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king"

Formerly Medusa
Grasshopper Green is offline  
Old 04-08-2008, 04:12 PM   #31 (permalink)
Eat your vegetables
 
genuinegirly's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: Arabidopsis-ville
Another update...

Quote:
SAN ANGELO, Texas (CNN) -- Tipped that girls as young as 13 were being forced to enter "spiritual marriages," have sex and bear children, Texas officials raided an isolated polygamist retreat in West Texas, according to court documents released Tuesday.

The information came from a 16-year-old girl who called a family violence hot line March 29, "expressing the need to leave her current living situation," according to the affidavit.

The teen bride said she was in an abusive "spiritual" marriage to an older sect member, the documents stated. She reported that she was the man's seventh wife and had been beaten and choked.

She said she had been hospitalized in the past with cracked ribs and hoped to escape the abuse by faking a medical condition.

The allegations prompted police and social workers to remove hundreds of children from the 1,900-acre YFZ Ranch near Eldorado, the documents stated. The ranch was built by followers of imprisoned polygamist "prophet" Warren Steed Jeffs.

Girls deemed by adult sect members to be of "child-bearing age" were forced to submit to sex and have babies, according to the documents, which provided the legal basis for authorities to remove the children and place them in state custody.

The 16-year-old said her parents brought her to the ranch a year ago and she was "spiritually married to an adult male member of the church," the affidavit said.

According to the affidavit, the teen bride reported her husband "beat and hurt her whenever he got angry -- hitting her in the chest and choking her -- and that while such abuse was occurring, one of the other women in the home would hold her infant child."

On March 30, the teen called again. She told workers she was last beaten Easter Sunday. Her husband told her if she tried to leave the ranch "she would be found and locked up."

Authorities raided the ranch Thursday. Since then, 416 children have been removed and placed in the custody of the state's Child Protective Services, spokeswoman Marleigh Meisner said.

Social workers have completed their work at the ranch, and said they believe all the children at risk had been removed, Meisner said.

It remains unclear whether the teen who reported being abused was among the children removed from the ranch or was taken from the compound under a different name before authorities arrived.

Court documents said evidence was found at the ranch indicating a pattern of arranging polygamous marriages between adult sect members and underage girls.

Future court hearings will determine whether there is enough evidence to keep the children from returning to the ranch. A hearing is scheduled April 17. The children will be appointed lawyers and legal guardians in about two weeks, Meisner said.

Two men have been arrested -- allegedly for interfering with the investigation, authorities said.

Levi Barlow Jeffs, 18, is accused of interfering with the duties of a public servant. Leroy Johnson Steed, 40, is accused of tampering with evidence. No further information was immediately available.

The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints bought the ranch four years ago and began erecting dormitories and a large white temple. Hundreds of Jeffs' followers moved from Arizona and Utah as authorities there stepped up their own investigations.

The name is taken from one of Jeffs' spiritual songs, "Yearning for Zion."

Officers entered the compound with a search warrant for 50-year-old Dale Evans Barlow, who they believed was married to the 16-year-old tipster. His whereabouts remain unclear, although some published reports said he is with his family in Colorado City, Arizona, and claims not to know his accuser.

CNN's previous visits to the ranch revealed the compound was guarded by armed men equipped with night-vision gear and other high-tech surveillance tools.

Authorities have not said whether they found weapons.

Jeffs remains jailed in Kingman, Arizona, where he awaits trial on four counts of incest and sexual conduct with a minor stemming from two arranged marriages between teenage girls and their older male relatives.

Jeffs was sentenced in November to two terms of 5 years to life for being an accomplice to the rape of a 14-year-old girl who said she was forced to marry her cousin.
__________________
"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy
genuinegirly is offline  
Old 04-08-2008, 05:38 PM   #32 (permalink)
Please touch this.
 
Halx's Avatar
 
Owner/Admin
Location: Manhattan
Ahh what a life. Start a franchise that keeps producing spunky young brides.
__________________
You have found this post informative.
-The Administrator
[Don't Feed The Animals]
Halx is offline  
 

Tags
compound, polygamy, release

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:39 AM.

Tilted Forum Project

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
© 2002-2012 Tilted Forum Project

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360