abaya

Some of you TFP'ers know that I used to be an evangelical, back in the day. I used to listen to a lot of Christian music back then (we're talking high school, here--and yeah, I was pretty obsessed), and one artist that I liked was Steven Curtis Chapman. I haven't listened to his stuff in many, MANY years, but I just noticed a group on Facebook that some of my friends joined (they are still very much evangies) about praying for his family.

So I took a look at the group, and it turns out that his youngest daughter, an adopted 5 year old girl from China (they have 3 biological kids, and 3 adopted ones from China), was accidentally hit or run over by their teenage son driving an SUV in the family driveway. I don't know any other details than that (most of the group is filled with a lot of evangelical talk, "using this event to show God's love," etc), but she died shortly afterwards.

http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs..../ENTERTAINMENT

Now, I don't care if they're religious or fanatical or what have you, but this just sucks. Whenever I hear news of a random tragedy like this, I just can't imagine what the people are going through. I think about death a lot in general, I guess, especially sudden and random death... but I just can't imagine the added grief of a member of your own family, accidentally killing another member. I mean, how do you cope with that? How does the brother cope with that?

Since I no longer resort to prayer for comfort, or even an idea of "God has a reason for this happening," all I could do would be to chalk it up as an accident, and try to move on from there. I see no reason, no meaning, behind most things in life... they just are the way they are. Sheer accident. And that's okay with me. But I don't know if that would be enough to get me through a tragedy like this.

Are people "of faith" better equipped to get through these kinds of things, because they believe that the daughter is going to heaven that much faster? It disturbs me to think about people thinking that the "meaning" behind such a meaningless, heartbreaking accident, could be that "the girl was so precious, God wanted her to be in heaven with him sooner." That would be such a slap in the face to someone like me, knowing what a massive hole that her death is going to leave in the lives of the living. That is a scar that will never heal, even for the most religious of people... I have seen it in my own family, how my very faithful grandmother never could get over the loss of her favorite son, my father. But I guess it helps them to grieve. How would you get through something like this?

Just spouting off thoughts here... wondering what you all might have to say.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

ShaniFaye

**edit, I've decided this is a discussion I dont want to take part in

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

BadNick

I saw quite a few reports of that tragic accident linked on my various news hompages (comcast and igoogle) though I didn't read any details. Having children of my own I hate to even think about it, but I'm sure loosing a child through any cause is a very hard thing to deal with. And that twist of fate that the accident involved his son driving the vehicle would just make my emotions even more mixed up. It's a very sad tragedy.

I'm not really religious at all so I'd pretty much be dealing with it as you described. It would be a very painful loss, but I'm confident that I'm resilient enough to deal with it and help my family deal with it, without it turning into a devastating catastrophic effect on us.

While I do think that people "of faith" might have the extra "help" of their faith in dealing with such a tragedy, to me it seems that there is such a wide range of what this faith/belief system means to people that I can't generalize if it makes them better equipped or not. It's just another tool to help you make sense of the world and what happens to us and the tool might be meaningful to some and not to others. To some the tool might be a crutch...I can see a lot of variations on that.

DaveOrion

If people of faith are better equipped to deal with these situations, then I would consider that a good thing. Its not sick to have faith, believe in an afterlife, or a higher power; its a way to deal with life without the depressing "life is shit" attitude so often found in atheists. One persons delusion is another's saving grace.

__________________
Syriana...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

Glory's Sun

I have an aquaintance that I do business with here who had the same thing happen to his daughter on Xmas Eve. It was pretty upsetting. They aren't religious so I can't say whether they got through the ordeal any easier, but they seem to have adjusted, at least in the public light.

I can't even imagine that happening in my family. I don't really know how I would react; or what would help me pull through it, if anything could.

lotsofmagnets

i´ve seen this in the news somewhere.

i can´t begin to imagine what the son who was driving the suv is going through at the moment. and i hope i never find out. best wishes to the family in coping.

to be a bit more constructive: from my perspective religion is almost designed on this sort of situation, helping people deal with loss and grief. it´s easier if there is someone or something to turn to and that the loss is only temporary (they´ll meet again in heaven or wherever.) it just comes down to personal character and each member of the family will deal with it in their own way (within the bounds of their conditioning of course.)

__________________
mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor.
she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron.
physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?

abaya

Dave, check what I wrote. I did not say that having faith was "sick," nor believing in an afterlife, or anything else. What I found disturbing, was that the "meaning" behind a girl being accidentally run over by her teenage brother, could be seen as "God wanted her to get to heaven sooner," and leaving it at that.

The reality is that the brother played a part in a massive, stupid accident. Yes, it could have happened to anyone, but it was not an act of God; it was an act of a human being, unfortunately. Preventable or not, I don't see how believing that "God wanted her to get to heaven sooner" can really help anyone to feel better about the whole thing. Children are never, ever supposed to die, if you ask me. Not because of a deity calling them home, or for any other reason. If it happens, there is no meaning behind it. Life is more merciful that way, if you ask me. That there was no reason. It just happened.

See Peter DeVries' novel, "The Blood of the Lamb," for more of where I am coming from on this. It only confirms the steps I have taken away from my faith... if I were in this situation, it would be extraordinarily challenging, but by no means could I feel good about saying that a deity "wanted to take my child to heaven" sooner.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

ShaniFaye

Abaya I read what you wrote the exact same way Dave did....It says are people "of faith" better equipped to get through these kinds of things, because they believe that the daughter is going to heaven that much faster, It's kind of sick, when you think about it, but I guess it helps them to grieve? No where in there do I read an indication of that being WHY she was run over

you might wanna reword that, because that statement is exactly why I decided not to participate in the discussion.

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

DaveOrion

abaya, its the tone of your OP that struck me, as your posts on religion often do. That somehow you were taken in, beguiled by evangelicals into believing a delusion and that now you're free from the shackles of religious brain washing. You're posts often seem condescending towards anyone with faith; you seem to even find it comical at times. Yet your own view of life is less than positive........

I do agree that this was a horrible accident, but different people will deal with such things in different ways. It wasnt her time, it wasnt God's will, it was an accident......but thats only my viewpoint. Others will vary.......

Shani I should have followed your lead.

__________________
Syriana...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

abaya

Well, thanks for being honest, Dave (and shani). (Where have you been, anyway?!) I was not "taken in," I chose completely to become an evangelical Christian, and I have walked away from it, just as freely. I apologize for my condescending tone, but take it as a condescension towards myself during that stage of my life, because I do feel that I am in a better place than I was back then. Yep, my view of life is definitely less than positive, and I prefer it that way... otherwise I would have never left the fold in the first place, because life sure was sunnier over there.
Good to hear this as well. I just dislike hearing that it was somehow "God's will" that a brother ran over his baby sister, accidentally. There is no reason for it. I just want to hear a Christian say that, for once... so it's refreshing to hear your viewpoint.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

lotsofmagnets

i just re-read the OP and see what dave and shani are talking about and see how that can be interpreted. unless that was the intention i suggest a re-wording

just nitpicking but doesn´t this seem a little like a contradction?

__________________
mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor.
she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron.
physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?

abaya

Done, thanks to all for correcting me.
Well, this is an interesting threadjack, but what part is the contradiction? My outlook on life was definitely more positive as a person of faith. I have become quite cynical and jaded about a lot of things, since I walked away from it. But I feel that I am now more grounded in some very hard truths, a reality that never hit home for me when I had God there to take care of it all. I prefer it this way, because I know that it's real. Faith is no longer a part of the equation. And for me, there is no contradiction, because I'd rather be cynical and know that I'm still seeking the truth, than be happy and refusing to see the truth. That's my view; please don't be offended by it.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

lotsofmagnets

perhaps it´s in the detail but 1stly you state you feel you are in a better place now then in the next sentence state that "life sure was sunnier over there" which implied that you were previously in a better place. i guess if you used the word "sunnier" with a pinch of sarcasm it would make sense. ps i´m not personally offended and rarely am and if i was i´d pm rather than start a flame war. like i said, nitpicking and nothing more

__________________
mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor.
she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron.
physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?

abaya

Well, I guess it was a fine line... but I wasn't being sarcastic. Life WAS sunnier over there, in its own way. But to me, life became less about being "sunny" and more about seeking truth, dealing with reality, no matter how shitty that journey would become. For me, Jesus used to be the way, the truth, the life. But after a long time of asking a lot of questions, the answers (and even lack of answers) were no longer enough to make sense for me. Believe me, I hated leaving my faith. But it was inevitable, given the way my mind and personality work. My mind could never rest, even with the balm of joy that I felt as a Christian. I needed more than happiness.

/Well, shall we get back to the OP now, hmm?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Shauk

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...1&postcount=43

yeah hellos, I'm l33t at the intarnetz.

you're not late or anything

abaya

Hey, sorry about that, I never even peeked at that thread originally... anyway, this thread is meant to focus a bit more on the faith vs. non-faith way of handling such a situation, so hopefully it's a little bit different.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

lotsofmagnets

well, back to the OP. i don´t find it disturbing that people use the will of god tactic to deal with past events and things that are beyond control. what i do have aproblem with is someone putting a gun to someone´s head and saying they´re doing god´s work. the whole destiny thing is completely undefineable which makes religion work so well. my view is standing in front of a train do you let it hit you knowing it was your "destiny" to die that day or jump out of the way since your "destiny" was to see tomorrow. that point was illustrated in forrest gump when the guy wanted to die in battle but lost both legs instead.

__________________
mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor.
she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron.
physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?

Sticky

Not all faiths believe this or even parts of this, but I think it is a good question.
"Are people of faith better equipped to get through these kinds of things?"

Maybe, generally speaking, but on an individual level I think it really depends on the persons ability to cope with dificult situations like these.
With faith or without, I think some people are able to work through these situations better than others.

Is a person of faith more likely to be one of these people, I am not sure. They may have more at their disposal to help them deal
- an understanding or belief of how things work and faith in those beliefs
- a procedure/protocol/rules to follow in these types of situations that may help with moving on (or coping) at the begining
- a belonging to a community/congregation/group that helps out with other day to day things while a person is going through these situations
- a belonging to a communit/congregation/group that a person can turn to to find other people to talk to that have gone through similar situations

But all this can exist whether the person is of faith or not.

I still feel that it is really up to the nature of the specific person in the situation. And even that person can handle different situations differetly.

As an example, during and after the Holocaust many observant jews became more observant and many others became less observant or non-observant. Some did not change in this respect at all. Many jews who were non-observant became observant.
It really depends on the person.

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Sticky The Stickman

girldetective

Ive wondered this too and have concluded that no, they are no better equipped to grieve. Instead maybe they just have another tool available to use for their comfort, or a different tool. Like you, I dont use this heavenly tool. Instead I find a more earthy blend to be helpful. That, and time.

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As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons...be cheerful; strive for happiness - Desiderata

DaveOrion

Whats really ironic abaya is that essentially we have the same viewpoint on matters involving God's will or a deity's will, which ever you prefer. I dont blame God or Satan or anything else for accidents, natural catastrophe's, or acts of aggression perpetrated by individuals or nations. Bad things just happen, which is hard for many to accept. They want someone or something to blame, a scapegoat, because its easier for some that way.

Earth quacks arent the result of angry gods, tsunami's arent caused by the sins of the people, and children dying at a young age arent caused by God's desire to have more Angels in His midst. These things are either natural occurrences, accidents, or the result of the violence inherent in all men.

We're more alike than different.

Edited to say: I think everyone needs a break from the message board game from time to time, I'm no different. I also find that the more I'm on the net the more I neglect things that I should be doing in the real world.

__________________
Syriana...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

Craven Morehead

Faith and as it relates to matters such as this is entirely a personal matter. What I believe is what I alone believe. What I know however I can share. I have some very dear friends that lost their daughter in a freak accident several years ago. Their lives were affected in ways that I'll never be able to fully comprehend nor even recount to you based on what I do know. It is so profound and all encompassing that I can not even to this day fully grasp it all. I do wish the Chapmans and their entire family peace at this time. If they can find that in their faith, I hope they will.

canuckguy

Wow that is just a horrific accident to such a young child, the teenage driver must be in terrible shape mentally. I feel for the family.

Whatever helps them cope with the grief....I think the "gods will" part is laughable and naive but too each his own.

abaya

Agreed.

And DaveOrion, for the record, I never thought there were that many differences between us, in the first place. Glad to see you back in these parts, in any case!

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

lotsofmagnets

my opinion in a nutshell

__________________
mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor.
she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron.
physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?

nerfgangsta

most people just yell out WHY
people always think they could of done something when its a accident
when someone dies everyone always wants to know why like a reason for it
they must have a reason for the death or else they take longer t oaccept
believing in a 'great plan' gives them a why because an accident does not count as a why. people dont accept when theres a death that sometimes accidnets just happen
i dont think there better equipped they just chalk it up to god which is kind of unfair to god really. god doesnt kill 5 year olds

Strange Famous

fucking awful thing for the kid driving the truck to live the rest of his life with.

A thing like that happened in the house I grew up in, a kid pushed his sister on a bike into the road in front of a sand truck (by accident) that ran straight over. The family moved away and my parents bought the house.

I guess the best you can make of it is better than half convince yourself that you cant worry about the dead. Wherever they are, and whoever they are with, they are out of our reach, and its only the living we can help.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

DaveOrion

I must say that I should have looked past my own feelings towards faith & concentrated more on the people involved in the original story. I don't think its possible for anyone to even begin to know what this young man feels like after being involved in the death of his younger sister. Only people who have been through such a horrifying experience can begin to understand; even then each person is different and deals with such matters in their own way. My heart felt condolences go out to the whole family and especially to those involved in the accident.

__________________
Syriana...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

Ourcrazymodern?

Abaya, my prayers are with you. I think the faithful spend too much time obsessing on death.
Focus on life.

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BE JUST AND FEAR NOT