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Old 06-14-2008, 07:49 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Japan Legislates Fat

Quote:
Recent Japanese legistalation requires all citizens to conform to government restrictions on waistline measurements. The law allows a maximum waistline of 33.5 in. for males and 35.4 in. for females. Those individuals who's measurements exceed the limits and also suffer medical illness will be referred to a diet regiment.
This legislation comes as part of the government's efforts to counter obesity and weight-related ailments, though some critics argue that the ultimate effects with be increased health care costs and hypochondria.
http://www.allvoices.com/userevents/...s-wasit/images

Do people have the right to life, liberty and being morbidly obese? Or does the government have the right to address a national health emergency?

In my opinion, this is smart legislation. The spirit of making laws would be protecting people from each other and themselves. Being overweight means that you're at a much higher risk for heart disease, cancer, stroke, and diabetes, but many people are unaware of the danger they put themselves in by an inactive and unhealthy lifestyle.

I'm sure this will piss off some overweight people and some libertarian people, but the reality is that this type of decision will likely help the health of the country. I can't imagine placing denial about weight or personal ideologies above the health and well being of your country.
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Old 06-14-2008, 07:56 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I think it's a good idea. It's not punitive... it's not like you'll be imprisoned for being fat, or sent to a fat labor camp. I guess it depends on what is meant by "referred to a diet regiment", but it seems reasonable to me.
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Old 06-14-2008, 08:00 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xepherys
I think it's a good idea. It's not punitive... it's not like you'll be imprisoned for being fat, or sent to a fat labor camp. I guess it depends on what is meant by "referred to a diet regiment", but it seems reasonable to me.
Quote:
The government initiative, which kicked in April 1, requires companies to have workers aged 40 to 74 take up the battle of the bulge by requiring waist measurements at health checkups -- part of the nation's larger efforts to guard against the ballooning costs of medical care, estimated at $285 billion a year.

If companies don't shape up, they will in effect be penalized by the government in five years, by having to shoulder a bigger portion of the annual $95 billion in private-sector payments that feed into a government-run national health care insurance for people 75 and older, under new laws.
http://www.commercialappeal.com/news...at-waistlines/

That's kinda brilliant, actually.
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Old 06-14-2008, 08:03 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I think this is avoiding the problem. Which is, the type of food available and allowed to be marketed, and also educating people to live and eat more healthily. Hey, we stick kids in front of the TV all day and feed them junk. What else could we expect?

I also don't think this is a good precedent to open...I mean do you agree with the Chinese population control policies? I'd say this is always something that will get twisted...
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Old 06-14-2008, 08:08 AM   #5 (permalink)
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"33.5 in"

Holy crap, am I the only one that thinks that's really thin? I'm 75" and weigh around 200lbs and consider myself in pretty good shape, and I think my waist is 34". Then again, Japanese people are closer to 65" than 75" . . .
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Old 06-14-2008, 08:08 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little_tippler
I think this is avoiding the problem. Which is, the type of food available and allowed to be marketed, and also educating people to live and eat more healthily. Hey, we stick kids in front of the TV all day and feed them junk. What else could we expect?
I read an article a year or two about about Philadelphia creating legislation to restrict or ban trans-fats.
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Old 06-14-2008, 08:09 AM   #7 (permalink)
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I think it's perfectly reasonable, given the expense of health care, the expense to the government, and given that the Japanese population is aging. If they don't deal with the problem of rising obesity rates in Japan (their obesity rates put ours to shame--they're not nearly as high as ours--they're really being quite proactive), it's going to cost everyone in the long run. Obesity costs everyone, not just the person who is obese.

I wish the United States would wake up and do something like this.

It's interesting, because in doing this the Japanese have come up with a new word for someone who's overweight: metabo.

Here is a link to the NYTimes article about this: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/13/wo...prod=permalink
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Old 06-14-2008, 08:10 AM   #8 (permalink)
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I do agree with the chinese population control, to an extent. Of course, I don't believe in killing little girls like sometimes happens in the more rural areas, but I believe the one child per family law is ideal. There are too damned many people there and they have a hard time supporting it across the board.

As for the "type of food available and allowed to be marketed", well... why should one person NOT be able to get something tasty because three other people can't control how much of it they eat? THAT doesn't make sense to me.
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Old 06-14-2008, 08:10 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabbyness
"33.5 in"

Holy crap, am I the only one that thinks that's really thin? I'm 75" and weigh around 200lbs and consider myself in pretty good shape, and I think my waist is 34". Then again, Japanese people are closer to 65" than 75" . . .
I'm sure that it takes into account the BMI system or something similar. It'd be silly to try and get a 6'3" man into anything under a 34. Or a woman that's 6'3" for that matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by onesnowyowl
It's interesting, because in doing this the Japanese have come up with a new word for someone who's overweight: metabo.
Why is it everything Japan names sounds like a pokemon?

Last edited by Willravel; 06-14-2008 at 08:11 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 06-14-2008, 08:48 AM   #10 (permalink)
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i just read this thread to Mrs dlish (shes a dietitian) and she rekons its a great idea. although she did say it will be hard to police.

i told her that we are moving to japan so that we can cash in on all the new business!
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Old 06-14-2008, 09:04 AM   #11 (permalink)
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metbo?! I like it!

I agree with the posters here that with a sense of nationalism and with incentives one could ask their popu to lose weight. I think it is a cost effective and healthy measure. And I think something does need to be done. However, I dont like the idea of taking that personal of a freedom away. I dont think if it were put to a vote that I would back it. It is just too intrusive I think.

And I certainly dont like the idea of hiring/firing people based on physical attributes good or bad, nor do I like that there is a particular age group addressed.

Quote:
The government initiative, which kicked in April 1, requires companies to have workers aged 40 to 74 take up the battle of the bulge by requiring waist measurements at health checkups -- part of the nation's larger efforts to guard against the ballooning costs of medical care, estimated at $285 billion a year.

If companies don't shape up, they will in effect be penalized by the government in five years, by having to shoulder a bigger portion of the annual $95 billion in private-sector payments that feed into a government-run national health care insurance for people 75 and older, under new laws.
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Old 06-14-2008, 09:13 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little_tippler
I think this is avoiding the problem. Which is, the type of food available and allowed to be marketed, and also educating people to live and eat more healthily. Hey, we stick kids in front of the TV all day and feed them junk. What else could we expect?
I don't think this is the government's first foray into public education of food and health. They are battling a specific problem here. They are using this to ensure the education of those they deem to be the highest risk.
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Old 06-14-2008, 09:18 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Old 06-14-2008, 09:31 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I'm conflicted on this. On the one hand, I can certainly see the merit in it, which I don't think needs to be explained.

On the other hand, I see mandating something like belt size as setting a dangerous precedent.

For the record, I'm well under the proposed limit; the 32" jeans I'm wearing while typing this are a bit loose on me.
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Old 06-14-2008, 09:40 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martian
I'm conflicted on this. On the one hand, I can certainly see the merit in it, which I don't think needs to be explained.

On the other hand, I see mandating something like belt size as setting a dangerous precedent.
I'll admit I thought this, too, but I couldn't formulate an argument that wasn't a slippery slope to support the thought. Think of it: why are they doing this? Driving down healthcare cost. What could be done, besides promoting good health, that would be so bad based on the precedence set by this legislation?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martian
For the record, I'm well under the proposed limit; the 32" jeans I'm wearing while typing this are a bit loose on me.
And if they regulate your fedora size?
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Old 06-14-2008, 09:55 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willravel
I'll admit I thought this, too, but I couldn't formulate an argument that wasn't a slippery slope to support the thought. Think of it: why are they doing this? Driving down healthcare cost. What could be done, besides promoting good health, that would be so bad based on the precedence set by this legislation?
I'm not entirely concerned about the legislation itself so much as the enforcement. Right now it has no teeth; if you're overweight, you get referred. I'm assuming they're not going to force you to follow the diet regimen proscribed, so it won't really do much.

On the other hand, if they follow up by deciding that they are going to enforce it, then we get into dangerous territory. This is what I'm referring to. Telling people they're not allowed to be overweight is the first step in legislating lifestyle. While I'll be the first to admit that some 'lifestyle legislation' is necessary, it's a very fine line between the clear good of the people and protecting the people from themselves. That's a line I'd prefer not to walk at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willravel
And if they regulate your fedora size?
I will successfully argue for an exemption by using my GIGANTIC BRAIN.
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Old 06-14-2008, 10:30 AM   #17 (permalink)
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I like the initiative of the government to try and help there people and ease the health care system but not sure if I agree with this action.

Frankly I don't care if your fat, until you start to drive up the cost of my taxes because your always needing medical care...etc But if you paid for your own medical expenses and it had no monetary or personal impact to the general population why do I care if you eat crap food and get fat? Too each his own.
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Old 06-14-2008, 10:35 AM   #18 (permalink)
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I quoted the enforcement in pst #3. If you aren't in reasonable health, the company you work for will pay more taxes for the healthcare system, which will in turn put pressure on you.
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Old 06-14-2008, 10:46 AM   #19 (permalink)
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This is a restriction of personal freedoms, and shouldn't be supported by anyone who believes in such freedoms.
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Old 06-14-2008, 10:58 AM   #20 (permalink)
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I think it'd be nice to have my employer realize that sitting on my ass for 8 hours a day because it's a requirement of my job, should also be compensated in the form of a free gym membership.

*shrug*
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Old 06-14-2008, 11:01 AM   #21 (permalink)
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I think it's a bad idea. I don't think that it's government's rightful place to legislate what people's waistlines should be. Not to mention when I was 21 I would have not been able to meet that standard despite being 6'1, 156lbs, and having a 36" waist at that point in my life, which made me very skinny. Government should keep it's grubby paws off of my waistline. Funny thing is that I was in the Military (USAF) at the time and they didn't seem to have a problem with my weight at all.

Last edited by Terrell; 06-14-2008 at 11:05 AM..
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Old 06-14-2008, 11:17 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrell
I think it's a bad idea. I don't think that it's government's rightful place to legislate what people's waistlines should be. Not to mention when I was 21 I would have not been able to meet that standard despite being 6'1, 156lbs, and having a 36" waist at that point in my life, which made me very skinny. Government should keep it's grubby paws off of my waistline. Funny thing is that I was in the Military (USAF) at the time and they didn't seem to have a problem with my weight at all.
Japanese people, on the whole, are considerably smaller than Americans. They aren't as tall as we are--a person who is 6'1" in Japan is a giant. Therefore, the waistline size they've chosen is relative to the people the government is governing.
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Old 06-14-2008, 11:23 AM   #23 (permalink)
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This is a restriction of personal freedoms, and shouldn't be supported by anyone who believes in such freedoms.
Yes, but it's the freedom to be fat. I'd hardly compare that to freedom of speech or press. Is being fat really a freedom you want to fight for? I mean it's really disrespectful to categorize fat with freedom to speak against the government.
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Old 06-14-2008, 11:26 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Willravel
Yes, but it's the freedom to be fat. I'd hardly compare that to freedom of speech or press. Is being fat really a freedom you want to fight for? I mean it's really disrespectful to categorize fat with freedom to speak against the government.
Furthermore, it can't be denied that obesity drives up health care costs--should a fat person have the freedom to cost me more money because they choose to be fat?
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Old 06-14-2008, 12:00 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by onesnowyowl
Furthermore, it can't be denied that obesity drives up health care costs--should a fat person have the freedom to cost me more money because they choose to be fat?
This is a slippery slope. There are many things that "drive up" health care costs based on lifestyle choices.

* * * * *

We shouldn't read too much into this. It looks to me like people are going to be told what foods to eat and not to eat if they are deemed overweight or obese. They aren't forced on a diet. It's a legislation of education.
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Old 06-14-2008, 12:20 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru
This is a slippery slope. There are many things that "drive up" health care costs based on lifestyle choices.
Heart disease and diabetes have a direct relationship with obesity and are leading causes of death in Japan, immediately behind Cerebro-vascular disease (strokes).
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Old 06-14-2008, 12:34 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onesnowyowl
Japanese people, on the whole, are considerably smaller than Americans. They aren't as tall as we are--a person who is 6'1" in Japan is a giant. Therefore, the waistline size they've chosen is relative to the people the government is governing.
So what happens to those Japanese that happen to be well above the norm as far as height is concerned? I don't think that such "one size fits all" legislation should have a place in people's lives with respect to a person's life. In my opinion it's an abuse of governmental authority to legislate that the population must maintain a certain waist size, or a certain weight.

The proper role of government is to protect it's citizens from being harmed by other people, and to prohibit people from inflicting harm (which includes reckless endangerment such as driving while intoxicated) upon any non-consenting 3rd party or their property. In my opinion, it is not the proper role of the government to legislate to an adult what their choices in life should be outside of those paramaters
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Old 06-14-2008, 12:40 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willravel
Yes, but it's the freedom to be fat. I'd hardly compare that to freedom of speech or press. Is being fat really a freedom you want to fight for? I mean it's really disrespectful to categorize fat with freedom to speak against the government.
It's under "pursuit of happiness". Same thing as Prohibition and criminalization of drugs.

Why should I not be allowed to do to my body whatever I want?
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Old 06-14-2008, 12:41 PM   #29 (permalink)
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So what happens to those Japanese that happen to be well above the norm as far as height is concerned? I don't think that such "one size fits all" legislation should have a place in people's lives with respect to a person's life. In my opinion it's an abuse of governmental authority to legislate that the population must maintain a certain waist size, or a certain weight.

The proper role of government is to protect it's citizens from being harmed by other people, and to prohibit people from inflicting harm (which includes reckless endangerment such as driving while intoxicated) upon any non-consenting 3rd party or their property. In my opinion, it is not the proper role of the government to legislate to an adult what their choices in life should be outside of those paramaters
Are you taking into account the universal healthcare? This is about ensuring that universal healthcare continues to be a good investment for their people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djtestudo
It's under "pursuit of happiness". Same thing as Prohibition and criminalization of drugs.

Why should I not be allowed to do to my body whatever I want?
Because, in Japan, it's not just effecting you.

Let me frame it this way. What happens when you have a heart attack while driving home from work on the highway? You take out a dozen people because you couldn't stop cramming bacon in your mouth. Suddenly you're effecting other people due to your mistakes (and being fat is a mistake, not a freedom).

Last edited by Willravel; 06-14-2008 at 12:43 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 06-14-2008, 12:47 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willravel
Heart disease and diabetes have a direct relationship with obesity and are leading causes of death in Japan, immediately behind Cerebro-vascular disease (strokes).
While I am for people having assistance controlling their weight, I can see the slippery slope argument.

however, the grey becomes black and white rather quickly if you start asking fat people if they WANT to be fat.

not going to find a lot of support there.

however, if you try to compare it to something like smoking? yeah, people want to smoke, despite it driving up health costs, so theres no way you could convince people that businesses jumping in and throwing nico-gum/patches and whatever else is required to stop people from smoking would gain even remotely the same support as this.


so Yeah, I'm totally for this.

I think ths slippery slope argument is invalid in this particular case
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Old 06-14-2008, 01:07 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willravel
Are you taking into account the universal healthcare? This is about ensuring that universal healthcare continues to be a good investment for their people.
Even if they have Universal Healthcare, I could not support being told that the government should be allowed to tell adults how to live their personal lives in that manner. I'm more a limited government type w/r/t the personal decisions of individuals. I have mixed feelings on the concept of Universal Healthcare, I don't like the idea of said health care being able to be used as a reason for giving the government any additional authority in our lives, it already has too much as it is.
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Old 06-14-2008, 01:12 PM   #32 (permalink)
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I again see the value in having these types of policies but I think in the end it is just too much government intervention and not enough personal freedoms.


Anyway this law/action will only really get big once the government can properly utilize this plan to rape the average citizen out of more of there money.
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Old 06-14-2008, 01:14 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Even if they have Universal Healthcare, I could not support being told that the government should be allowed to tell adults how to live their personal lives in that manner.
In a universal system, one's BMI isn't "personal". At the very least it's public decency, but in reality it's an economic drain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrell
I have mixed feelings on the concept of Universal Healthcare, I don't like the idea of said health care being able to be used as a reason for giving the government any additional authority in our lives, it already has too much as it is.
For the sake of the thread, I think we should avoid discussion about universal healthcare in general and keep this on Japan's legislation.
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Old 06-14-2008, 01:45 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willravel
In a universal system, one's BMI isn't "personal". At the very least it's public decency, but in reality it's an economic drain.
Any mandatory measurment of my physical body is by definition personal, because it requires me to allow another person to touch my body without my consent. If someone touched my body against my will without said government mandate it would be called simple battery at the very least and would be a crime against my person. Probably a misdemeanor, depending on the jurisdiction, but a crime nonetheless. Tell me again how is it not personal simply because the government decides to violate my person against my wishes?

My weight has nothing whatsoever to do with public decency.

On disease, one can only be deemed a risk for disease based on being overweight, unless a person has actually been diagnosed with said disease, and had said disease tied specifically to their obesity (easier said than done, since there are often multiple factors involved).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willravel
For the sake of the thread, I think we should avoid discussion about universal healthcare in general and keep this on Japan's legislation.
I didn't bring universal healthcare into the discussion, I merely pointed out my mixed feelings on the issue, particualrily how it could be used as an excuse to expand already excessive governmental authority.
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Old 06-14-2008, 01:56 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Any mandatory measurment of my physical body is by definition personal, because it requires me to allow another person to touch my body without my consent. If someone touched my body against my will without said government mandate it would be called simple battery at the very least and would be a crime against my person. Probably a misdemeanor, depending on the jurisdiction, but a crime nonetheless. Tell me again how is it not personal simply because the government decides to violate my person against my wishes?
This is simply incorrect. If you were injured and paramedic were touched, there would be no legal violation of your person in treating you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrell
My weight has nothing whatsoever to do with public decency.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrell
On disease, one can only be deemed a risk for disease based on being overweight, unless a person has actually been diagnosed with said disease, and had said disease tied specifically to their obesity (easier said than done, since there are often multiple factors involved).
Obesity is a disease. Those who are clinically obese are ordered to seek treatment just as someone who has a flu. It's something to cure. While obesity clearly causes many health conditions, it is in and of itself a health condition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrell
I didn't bring universal healthcare into the discussion, I merely pointed out my mixed feelings on the issue, particualrily how it could be used as an excuse to expand already excessive governmental authority.
I never said you introduced it, I said this isn't the thread for it. Please, no threadjacking.
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Old 06-14-2008, 02:01 PM   #36 (permalink)
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the whole thing is just silly.
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Old 06-14-2008, 02:04 PM   #37 (permalink)
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This thread could have continued on fine without that picture Will!
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Old 06-14-2008, 02:07 PM   #38 (permalink)
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canuckguy
This thread could have continued on fine without that picture Will!
Sure, but it communicates more than a thousand words.
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Old 06-14-2008, 02:09 PM   #39 (permalink)
I read your emails.
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willravel
Sure, but it communicates more than a thousand words.

True, it also communicated to me that I am now officially not hungry for dinner.



Beer it is then.
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Old 06-14-2008, 02:10 PM   #40 (permalink)
Insane
 
Location: Orlando, Florida
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willravel
This is simply incorrect. If you were injured and paramedic were touched, there would be no legal violation of your person in treating you.
Only if I'm unconscious or incoherent and cannot refuse. If I am conscious and coherent and say that I don't want treatment, then he has to honor my right to refuse treatment, and is liable if he does not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willravel
This photo is an example of the person not choosing the apropriate clothing for their body weight, rather than their body weight in and of itself. There's a difference

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willravel
Obesity is a disease. Those who are clinically obese are ordered to seek treatment just as someone who has a flu. It's something to cure. While obesity clearly causes many health conditions, it is in and of itself a health condition.
I would see ordering a competant adult to seek treatment for obesity (in themselves) as an abuse of governmental power. I don't see government's rightful role in society as protecting an adult from himself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willravel
I never said you introduced it, I said this isn't the thread for it. Please, no threadjacking.
I really don't want to talk about universal healthcare that much either, I was trying to make a point about keeping it out of the discussion. Perhaps I could have worded it better.
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