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Old 07-10-2008, 05:11 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Neighbours fight whiffle ball field, "they think we're a cult".

Greenwich residents have a plastic stick up their asses over what used to be a poison ivy ridden empty lot, but is now a whiffle ball field. From the New York Times:

Quote:
GREENWICH, Conn.

Vincent Provenzano, 16 years old, experienced his Kevin Costner moment one Sunday afternoon in May after a thrilling day of Wiffle ball in a friend’s backyard. He came home, gazed at a field of weeds, brush and poison ivy in an empty lot off Riverside Lane, turned to his friend Justin Currytto, 17, and proclaimed: “If we build it, they will come.”

After three weeks of clearing brush and poison ivy, scrounging up plywood and green paint, digging holes and pouring concrete, Vincent, Justin and about a dozen friends did manage to build it — a tree-shaded Wiffle ball version of Fenway Park complete with a 12-foot-tall green monster in center field, American flag by the left-field foul pole and colorful signs for Taco Bell Frutista Freezes.

But, alas, they had no idea just who would come — youthful Wiffle ball players, yes, but also angry neighbors and their lawyer, the police, the town nuisance officer and tree warden and other officials in all shapes and sizes. It turns out that one kid’s field of dreams is an adult’s dangerous nuisance, liability nightmare, inappropriate usurpation of green space, unpermitted special use or drag on property values, and their Wiffle-ball Fenway has become the talk of Greenwich and a suburban Rorschach test about youthful summers past and present.

“People can remember how much fun it was to go out in the woods in the summer, build a fort, do something fun and creative, so there’s something pretty cool in what these kids did, especially at a time kids grow up in such an incredibly structured and stressful environment,” said Lin Lavery, one of three Greenwich selectmen, who inherited Wifflegate while the first selectman, Greenwich’s version of mayor, is on vacation.

“But we have a situation that’s escalated,” Ms. Lavery said. “Neighbors are upset that it’s too close to their property; building has been done on town property; there are issues of traffic and drainage. We’re hoping to come up with a compromise, but there are a lot of issues to address.”

There’s plenty of local history in Wiffle ball (it was invented up the road in Fairfield) and Greenwich land-use disputes (where to start?), but Vincent and Justin say they just wanted a place to play Wiffle ball. They got materials from a friend’s basement plus two big pieces of plywood being thrown away by a Shell station on East Putnam Avenue. They fished pallets out of Dumpsters and spent perhaps $200, mostly on green paint.

But even before they were finished, things began to get complicated. They were told the neighbors had complained, the field was on town-owned land, they needed a permit to put up their field and it would probably have to come down.

This being Greenwich, they decided not to go quietly. They and/or parents alerted the local newspaper and politicians up to Lt. Gov. Michael Fedele of nearby Stamford. Soon they had everyone in town talking about it, with most of them seemingly put off by the notion that even a Wiffle ball field needs to enlist the armies of adult supervision and legalistic oversight.

“BACK before we lost our collective minds and began shrieking with horror at the thought of kids having fun on their own (as in not part of an official league or otherwise organized activity), they used to do things like find a vacant field, turn it into a makeshift diamond and spend glorious hours in the summer sun,” the local newspaper, Greenwich Time, wrote in an editorial in support of the youths on Wednesday.

The regular players, mostly high school boys but including Tara Currivan, 15 (who swings a mean bat and brings lemonade to the field), and Scott Atkinson, 13, seem a little befuddled by the whole thing. “They think we’re a cult,” said Jeff Currivan, 17. “People think we should be home playing ‘Grand Theft Auto.’ ”

And they seem to get the fact that many adults are taken with the idea of kids’ doing something that’s not structured, not organized and not oriented toward improving your SAT scores.

“It’s just old-fashioned fun,” said Vincent Provenzano. “We did it on our own. Maybe people think that’s unusual.”
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Old 07-10-2008, 05:42 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Here, let me shorten that for you:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poppinjay
Greenwich residents have a plastic stick up their asses
You don't need to say anything else.

When my wife got her first job out of college, she was looking for a place to live in southern Connecticut. She stopped in Greenwich, bought a sandwich, and went to sit on the green. Someone stopped her and asked if she was a resident; apparently, out-of-towners aren't allowed on the green?
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Old 07-10-2008, 06:12 AM   #3 (permalink)
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A little research has clued me in to Greenwich. I remember seeing Janeane Garafalo launch an invasion of tacky people on a city owned beach. That beach was in Greenwich. It was on TV Nation about 10 years ago, the same show that brought us a hectoring moralistic chicken.

Town residents showed up in force to basically tell Janeane and her crew to go away, the beach is private, for city residents only.
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Old 07-10-2008, 06:13 AM   #4 (permalink)
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OMFG!!! Kids actually going...outside...to...[shudder]play? On their own? With no sanctioning body? No, by God, this is going to end. Call the lawyers, we're going to stop this once...and...for...all!!
Further proof to me that some people simply need to have some common sense physically bitch slapped into them.

Assuming that the kids did a halfway decent job on it and it's not an eyesore, and are aware that they may eventually have to give way to potential future legitimate land use...where the hell's the harm?
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Old 07-10-2008, 06:20 AM   #5 (permalink)
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A picture of the field is on the NYT website (also, our website wydaily.com).

They did a great job, inlcluding a backstop to lessen the noise.
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Old 07-10-2008, 06:20 AM   #6 (permalink)
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OMFG!!! Kids actually going...outside...to...[shudder]play? On their own? With no sanctioning body? No, by God, this is going to end. Call the lawyers, we're going to stop this once...and...for...all!!
Further proof to me that some people simply need to have some common sense physically bitch slapped into them.

Assuming that the kids did a halfway decent job on it and it's not an eyesore, and are aware that they may eventually have to give way to potential future legitimate land use...where the hell's the harm?

I agree 100%. Let's complain that kids are destructive, have to much of a sense of entitlement, irresponsible, disrespectful, lazy, and overweight today. Send them to therapy, behaviour councilors, and enroll them in 17 "activities" a year. But God forbid they actually do something constructive, athletic, and creative on their own!!! The horror!! This travesty must be stopped!!

Then we wonder why they grow up to be idiots.
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Old 07-10-2008, 06:28 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights
some people simply need to have some common sense physically whacked into them with a whiffle ball bat.
My edits in bold. I think it will be more pleasurable this way.


That places sounds like it is in need of a good natural catastrophe while all the nice people and children leave.
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Old 07-10-2008, 06:30 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Then we wonder why they grow up to be idiots.
Apparently this sort of thing has been going on in Connecticut for at least a generation, then.

Some day the uniting theory behind world peace will be that at one point or another in our lives we're all morons and that timely self-realization of those moments will improve everyone's quality of life. I just wish I'd realized that a little earlier this week....
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Old 07-10-2008, 06:31 AM   #9 (permalink)
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I think it looks good. Aren't we supposed to be encouraging kids to think and problem solve for themselves? Plus, they're outside socializing and getting exercise.

In my city, the response would have been a lot different. Of course, around these parts kids are expected to play outside.
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Old 07-10-2008, 06:52 AM   #10 (permalink)
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In my city the lot would be for sale and somebody would build McMansion there. The main beef from residents seems to be that kids who are from other neighborhoods will be running wild through their yards, ravashing their women and taking their gold.

Places I've lived in VA, NC, and CO would encourage this. In KS, farmers would complain that the lot could be used for grain, but then the entire state is pretty much a sandlot.
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Old 07-10-2008, 07:23 AM   #11 (permalink)
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With all due respect, the property should be up to code. But I agree that the official reaction wasn't the best.
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Old 07-10-2008, 04:29 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Greenwich can go fuck itself. I live in a rich snob gold coast town, and even we think Greenwich are a bunch of rich snobs.

This is typical NIMBY shit that everyone in this fucking area pulls whenever there might be some disruption to their precious neighborhoods. In Stamford, which is a big city, there's a shitstorm over an aritficial turf soccer field because of environmental concerns Spoiler: translation: minorities play soccer more than white people and the residents don't want "those people" in their neighborhood, but they can't come out and say it.

Anyone who's opposed to this field needs to go have a venti "shut the fuck up" latte and pull their head out of their ass.
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Old 07-10-2008, 08:39 PM   #13 (permalink)
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How did they piss off the whole town?

they did it like this!? they did it like that!?
they did it with the whiffle ball bat?!

Between this story, redlemon's experience, and the soccer thing MSD has informed us of i have come up with one conclusion. That conclusion is that Greenwich is an evil, soulless place that shall never see even a cent of my cash. I'm shall be keeping my distance from this Land-o-Demons in disguise.

it really is a shame. You dont see kids doing stuff like this anymore.
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Old 07-10-2008, 08:48 PM   #14 (permalink)
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By the sounds of what everyone has said, Greenwich sounds like my kinda place. Any land for sale there?



I have been through towns like that before, its disgusting how people can even get this way. Its like the town on the other side of the hedge in the kids movie The Hedge
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Old 07-10-2008, 10:56 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by blahblah454
By the sounds of what everyone has said, Greenwich sounds like my kinda place. Any land for sale there?
ha! yeah, good luck to you...

http://realestate.yahoo.com/Connecti...Search&redir=1

born and raised in CT - greenwich is known for being ridiculous, and MSD's spoiler is right on the money.......but if greenwich is bad, check out New Canaan..........

If you're not willing to spend $200+ on a frying pan, then you're a nobody in that fockin' town.
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Old 07-11-2008, 04:27 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSJTWIZTA
How did they piss off the whole town?

they did it like this!? they did it like that!?
they did it with the whiffle ball bat?!
Sweet.
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Old 07-11-2008, 04:50 AM   #17 (permalink)
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I think it's high time we name Greenwich "America's Twat".
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Old 07-11-2008, 08:43 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSJTWIZTA
How did they piss off the whole town?

they did it like this!? they did it like that!?
they did it with the whiffle ball bat?!

Between this story, redlemon's experience, and the soccer thing MSD has informed us of i have come up with one conclusion. That conclusion is that Greenwich is an evil, soulless place that shall never see even a cent of my cash. I'm shall be keeping my distance from this Land-o-Demons in disguise.

it really is a shame. You dont see kids doing stuff like this anymore.

Mike D and the gang would be proud of you! love the reference.


I see no harm in the field as long as it is not interfering with the use/enjoyment of any private home owners in the area.

As a kid, we had a crusty old neighbour who would call the cops on me and my friends for playing road hockey out from of my house (she lived across the street). The cops would come by to appease her but she wanted to charge me with trespassing when the ball went up on her lawn.

She even had her grandson come over to beat me up! Boy did he get his ass kicked lol.

We eventually moved due to her behaviour in general. This lady would leave her living room and come outside to pick up a stray leaf that might have blown onto her yard...hey she cut her boulevard with scissors!
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Old 07-11-2008, 11:27 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Fuck Greenwich and double-fuck canuckguy's old neighbor. Meh!
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Old 07-11-2008, 11:36 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Fuck Greenwich and double-fuck canuckguy's old neighbor. Meh!
That's a lot of fucking. Make sure you wear a condom, especially with trashy folks like that.
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Old 07-11-2008, 04:16 PM   #21 (permalink)
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While alot of the attitude in Greenwich sounds like pure BS, you have to admit that at least SOME of this attitude (at least in general) has a basis. What happens the first time some idiot kid hurts himself, and some idiot parent sues? I sincerely doubt drainage or property values is any worse off if it was a field full of poison ivy before, but inviting use without considering responsibility seems like it's asking for trouble. It may be stupid, but it took a long stupid chain to get there and the nanny-ball has been rolling too hard for too long to consider it easily stopped now.
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Old 07-11-2008, 04:40 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Poppinjay
In KS, farmers would complain that the lot could be used for grain
Where in Kansas have you been exactly? We're not the most up to date for sure, but it's not even remotely as country as you describe it for the most part. Case in point, I've lived here 25 years... never met one "farmer".

When I was a kid we played football in vacant lots all the time and never caught any grief from it. Granted, we didn't have to clear any excessive growth, and we didn't build anything, we just played. We'd have killed for this kind of thing at the time. Awesome idea, shitty outcome.
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Old 07-11-2008, 08:21 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikec
born and raised in CT - greenwich is known for being ridiculous, and MSD's spoiler is right on the money.......but if greenwich is bad, check out New Canaan..........

If you're not willing to spend $200+ on a frying pan, then you're a nobody in that fockin' town.
How about Darien? The whole town shuts down except for people trying to avoid rush hour on the Post Road. Want a burger? Go to Norwalk.

Like I've said in other threads, if I didn't have the attachment of being born and raised here (plus I just got a full time job here,) I'd be gone in a heartbeat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by forgotten_dream
While alot of the attitude in Greenwich sounds like pure BS, you have to admit that at least SOME of this attitude (at least in general) has a basis.
The basis is that they don't want anything that might attract non-whites to their neighborhood (like sports) or produce any noise above 4dB that would degrade their precious property value, even though 90% of them legally reside in Florida for tax purposes.
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Old 07-11-2008, 10:11 PM   #24 (permalink)
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How about Darien? The whole town shuts down except for people trying to avoid rush hour on the Post Road. Want a burger? Go to Norwalk.
where in Norwalk? I work in that town, and I can't find good food to save my life... italian food? pizza? forget it. all they have is that shitty ass greek pizza... mike's ristorante is good, but not necessarily convenient. and letezia's pizza - it's alright, but doesn't make me say DAMN THAT'S GOOD!

now stratford and milford? salerno's and papa's pizza respectively. that's good eats.

want a burger? danny's drive in or the merritt canteen in BPT - fuhgeddaboudit.

school me please, cause I am tired of roly poly, taco bell, francesco's and sandwiches on hard rolls in norwalk..........
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Old 07-12-2008, 01:28 AM   #25 (permalink)
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We need people like these kids in the REAL Greenwich, where they're building the stadia for the 2012 Olympics - send those kids over here, we'll get them working...
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Old 07-12-2008, 03:37 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Where in Kansas have you been exactly? We're not the most up to date for sure, but it's not even remotely as country as you describe it for the most part. Case in point, I've lived here 25 years... never met one "farmer".
You haven't gotten around much. In my six years there, I met several. But I also lived a few blocks from the state fairgrounds.

Kansas is "country", but it's mostly pretty, especially seeing a remote field of sunflowers.
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Old 07-12-2008, 04:49 PM   #27 (permalink)
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You haven't gotten around much. In my six years there, I met several. But I also lived a few blocks from the state fairgrounds.
That says it all right there.

I've been around here plenty, and seen lots of farmers, just never met any. However, the point is, you're making a very broad generalization when it simply isn't the case.

Like I stated earlier, we used to play in empty lots all the time, and I never, ever had someone pull up on a tractor and tell me or my friends that the space we were using could or should be used for grain, corn, wheat or anything else for that matter. We were "staying out of trouble" and not "running the streets" and that's all that mattered.
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Old 07-12-2008, 06:41 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by mikec
where in Norwalk? I work in that town, and I can't find good food to save my life... italian food? pizza? forget it. all they have is that shitty ass greek pizza... mike's ristorante is good, but not necessarily convenient. and letezia's pizza - it's alright, but doesn't make me say DAMN THAT'S GOOD!

now stratford and milford? salerno's and papa's pizza respectively. that's good eats.

want a burger? danny's drive in or the merritt canteen in BPT - fuhgeddaboudit.

school me please, cause I am tired of roly poly, taco bell, francesco's and sandwiches on hard rolls in norwalk..........

Good God, just the mentioning of Danny's Drive In is enough to give me a mild hard attack, but damn is it good. Shame everything else on Ferry Blvd. sucks though.
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Old 08-04-2008, 01:05 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Here's a 3 part update...

Bad news: 7/22
Quote:
By Neil Vigdor
Staff Writer
Article Launched: 07/22/2008 01:00:00 AM EDT

GREENWICH - The town demolished it, but they still came. Next time, they'll be trespassers.

Despite being shut down Friday, the unauthorized Wiffle ball field in Riverside drew a number of teens over the weekend for pickup games that led neighbors to call the police.

So yesterday, public works employees made and posted "No Trespassing" signs on the town-owned lot on Riverside Lane.

"It is what it is. It means you don't go there," First Selectman Peter Tesei said.

Town officials ordered the field closed last week because of liability concerns and complaints from neighbors. The field was on a half-acre lot set aside as a drainage area when the subdivision was built in the late 1940s.

The signs also say "Town of Greenwich Property, No Dumping, Utility Drain on Premise." One sign was placed at the entrance to the lot, another was planted right in the middle of the former field - between the pitcher's mound and second base.

Tesei said the adjacent property owners are prohibited from using the lot.

"We're going to check the (property) lines to make sure there is no encroachment," he said.

Some of the public works employees who installed the signs were part of a crew sent to the lot Friday to knock down an outfield fence that area teens built on the property without town approval.

"The field is not the same as we left it on Friday," said Larry Daur, a town highway foreman.

The bases and pitcher's rubber, which the teens cooperatively removed from the field Friday, were back at the lot yesterday. In place of the outfield fence, underground utility marker flags marked the field dimensions. Narrow strips of wood on the ground outlined where the fences used to be.

Brett Atkinson, 16, acknowledged that he and his friends returned to the lot to play.

"I didn't think it would be this quick," said Brett. "It turned out to be a bigger deal than it should have."

According to police logs, the town received a complaint at 10:48 a.m. Saturday from the homeowner at 100 Riverside Lane that the teens were on the lot.

A message was left yesterday seeking comment from that neighbor.

Two of the neighbors who oppose the teens' use of the lot for Wiffle ball had surveillance cameras installed on their homes, including a lens pointed at the lot.

"He put them up in daylight while we were playing," Brett said.

Lt. Daniel Allen, a police spokesman, said officers should be taking the "appropriate action" to address trespassing incidents. When asked to elaborate, he said any violations would be handled on a case-by-case basis to determine whether there should be an arrest.

Selectman Peter Crumbine said he hopes the situation doesn't escalate to an arrest.

"I don't think it calls for that," Crumbine said. "We're not talking about criminals here, but they should find another place for their Wiffle ball games."

Crumbine and Tesei said they have received a number of e-mails from around the country decrying the decision to shut down the field.

"Peter Tesei has made the decision in the best interests of the town, and it's time to move on," Crumbine said. "He's offered to set up at field at Dundee. And my advice to the kids, with whom I sympathize, would be to accept that offer."

The lot commandeered by the teens is fraught with liability issues, according to town officials, who said an exposed storm drain could lead to an injury and a lawsuit. If the storm drain gets backed up, town officials said it could cause flooding and property damage to neighboring homes, which also could trigger a lawsuit.
Kinda good news: 7/26
Quote:
By Neil Vigdor
Staff Writer
Article Launched: 07/26/2008 01:00:00 AM EDT

GREENWICH - Welcome to the House that Lawyers Built.

Exactly one week after they were kicked out of a municipally-owned lot in Riverside in a tearful farewell, a group of jaded teens christened a new Wiffle ball field yesterday that the town created for them behind the International School at Dundee.

"It's better than nothing, I guess," Brett Atkinson, 16, said as he roamed his new environs.

Behind him in the outfield, workers from the parks department hammered stakes into the ground and put up blue mesh safety fencing, making good on the town's promise to find the teens a new home.

"We just wanted to get it to the point where you guys could play this weekend," Joseph Siciliano, the town's parks director, told the teens.

Brett hit the last home run at the old ball yard on Riverside Lane, which the town, on the advice of its legal counsel, ordered shut down because of liability concerns and complaints from neighbors who hired their own lawyer to oppose the field. The half-acre lot chosen by the teens was set aside as a drainage area when the surrounding subdivision was built in the late 1940s.

"At the old field, it was either a single or a home run," Brett said nostalgically.

The scene yesterday at Dundee School, within a bike ride of the previous field, was a sharp contrast from the previous Friday, when a demolition crew knocked down outfield fences erected by the teens while they watched, including a 12-foot high replica of Fenway Park's Green Monster wall.

Siciliano presented the teens with several Wiffle balls and bats that he said he had searched high and low for Thursday night at a sporting goods store.

"(The salesman) said there's a run on those bats," Siciliano said, alluding to the national attention the teens' story has received.

Siciliano then reminisced with the teens about playing a variation of Wiffle ball while growing up in Chickahominy.

"We'd cut a broom handle for a bat," Siciliano said.

If the old field was a band box, the new one is a pitcher's park, with dead center field 110-feet from home plate, 10 feet deeper than its predecessor. It's 90 feet down the lines.

The teens got to choose the dimensions, as well as the color of mesh safety fences. They settled on blue, a departure from the green plywood walls of their former field of dreams. Siciliano said the town spent about $700 on the fencing.

"It's good, but the other field was cool," said Jackie Calagna, 15, who, a week earlier, was in tears when the old ball yard was being demolished.

The lot commandeered by the teens was fraught with liability issues, according to town officials, who said an exposed storm drain could lead to an injury and a lawsuit. If the storm drain gets backed up, town officials said it could cause flooding and property damage to neighboring homes that also could trigger a lawsuit.

Several neighboring homeowners complained to the town that the field created noise, parking, traffic and security problems for the neighborhood.

"They're just neighborhood kids. This is just a very constructive approach of giving them a place to be," Siciliano said.

Town officials chose Dundee School because there were already base paths, a backstop for softball, ample parking and portable toilets for the teens to use. In addition to installing the fencing, which is collapsible in case somebody runs into it, the town brought over some small bleachers to the field.

"They asked to put their (American) flags up, which is fine," Siciliano said. "The only thing we asked is that they don't do any advertising."

Tim Bellantoni, 17, hit the first home run, a shot to left field, at the new field yesterday. He said he is organizing a townwide Wiffle ball tournament for late August at the Conyers Farm "polo grounds" and hopes to field 60 teams of four people, with each squad paying a $100 entry fee.

The teens will be allowed to use the new field until school goes back in session at the end of August, when the town will look for another facility for them to use.

"There's got to be a corner of the world where we can send them to," Siciliano said, quipping. "You guys are getting a dome for the winter. We budgeted for it."
And back to bad news: 8/1
Quote:
By Neil Vigdor
Staff Writer
Article Launched: 08/01/2008 02:55:35 AM EDT

GREENWICH - Despite its proximity to a school where asbestos flooring is being removed, town officials said Thursday the Wiffle ball field they created there is safe.

Located behind the International School at Dundee in Riverside, the field was chosen by the town as an alternative to a municipally owned lot a mile away. The teens were displaced from that lot last month after the town dismantled the makeshift field because of liability concerns and complaints from neighbors.

"There's no immediate health issue, so we're going to keep the children there," said Joseph Siciliano, the town parks director.

Some of the parents of the teens were upset that a tractor-trailer with signs saying "Danger Asbestos" was parked near the field in a lot where the teens park their cars.

"Would they put their kids there to play?" said Bob Bellantoni, whose son, Tim, 17, has been playing at the field since it opened last week.

Toxic asbestos fibers can cause cancer and other health problems.

Bellantoni said he has reservations about sending his son to the field after seeing several storage barrels near the truck and ventilation hoses sticking out the building's windows.

"What if the wind is blowing that way? What happens?" Bellantoni said.

The town's health department has cleared the field for play, with officials saying the contamination is confined to the school's interior.

According to Michael Long, director of environmental services with the health department, special ventilation equipment is being used at the school to isolate the contamination and prevent asbestos from spreading in the air.

School officials said the work is being done by a licensed contractor and is scheduled to go on for another week.

"It's just a routine summer capital project going on, with all the appropriate precautions. Nothing going on in the school has any impact on the availability of the field," said Sue Wallerstein, assistant superintendent for business services.

Wallerstein said there was never any discussion about the project when the school was being contemplated to host Wiffle ball games.

"The discussion was around the field. We, of course, were very happy to make it available to them should they decide they wanted to use it," Wallerstein said.
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Old 08-04-2008, 02:18 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Wow. These kids just can't get a break, can they?
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Old 08-04-2008, 05:41 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Wow, that article has both sides to the story. It makes way more sense now. Closing the other field was a no brainer and those kids are very lucky that the town was so patient and made efforts to find them another location and foot the bill.

Those are some very lucky kids.
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Old 08-06-2008, 04:49 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Yes, now they can be gaurded from injury by asbestos.

Perhaps the town could fund a program to bubble wrap all children.

I'm happy that neighbors feel forced to purchase surveillance cameras. Less money they could use to snort cocaine off a hooker's ass. But they will never get it.
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