Social profiling - 9 Muslims removed from Flight - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

dlish · 01-02-2009, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Nine Muslims, including three children, have been ordered off a domestic US flight after two other passengers heard them making what they thought were suspicious remarks about security.

The group, eight of whom are US citizens, was in Washington on Thursday afternoon on an AirTran flight bound for Orlando, Florida where they were to attend a religious retreat, and were eventually cleared for travel by the FBI, according to the Washington Post.

The airline and FBI characterised the incident as a misunderstanding, but AirTran reportedly refused to rebook the passengers, who paid for seats on another carrier.

Kashif Irfan, 34, said his younger brother Atif and his brother's wife "were remarking about safety" when they were overheard.

"My brother and his wife were discussing some aspect of airport security," he told the Post. "The only thing my brother said was, 'Wow, the jets are right next to my window."

Irfan, who was also travelling with his wife, a sister-in-law, a friend and Irfan's three sons ages seven, four, and two, said action was taken against his party because of the way they looked.

All were traditionally Muslim in appearance, with the men sporting beards and the women in headscarves.

An airline spokesman, Tad Hutcheson, defended AirTran's handling of the situation.

"At the end of the day, people got on and made comments they shouldn't have made on the airplane," he was quoted as saying.

"Other people heard them, misconstrued them. It just so happened these people were of Muslim faith and appearance," Hutcheson added. "It escalated, it got out of hand and everyone took precautions."

The pilot postponed the flight, and federal officials ordered all 104 passengers off the plane to re-screen them and their luggage before allowing the flight to go to Orlando, two hours late and without the nine passengers.

Ellen Howe, a spokeswoman for the Transportation Security Administration, said the pilot acted appropriately.

"It was an ordeal," said Abdur Razack Aziz, one of the detained.

"Nothing came out of it. It was paranoid people. It was very sad."

this issue is important to me. i find myself travelling more and more, especially in the middle east, and it annoys me that normal everyday people cannot go about their everyday lives without the risk of having to put up with being pulled off flights because of the religion, appearance or political preferences.

i recall the guy wearing the anti bush t-shirt that got pullled off the flight last year, this muslim family amonst probably thousands every year.

it annoys me, because as a westerner, as an arab and as a muslim, i may be subjected to the same treatment metered out to this family. as some of you may recall, i was in yemen a few weeks ago. i decided to go in traditional garb for the first time, and i had no problem. i may well be targetting for 'social profiling' because i 'fit the bill'. a westerner with an australian passport who is able to acess many countries without visas, who so happens to have an arab name and shares the same religion as a few nutjobs. great just great.

what do you guys think? have you been socially profiled before?

your thoughts

snowy · 01-02-2009, 05:13 PM

I've been exposed to social profiling. I was traveling with a large group of university students to a residential life conference in Minnesota, and one of my colleagues was pulled out of our group to be randomly searched at every airport we stopped at because of his visible piercings and tattoos. He was quite relaxed about it, and said it was par for the course given his ornamentation, that he'd gotten used to it. His attitude about it, and his willingness to be incredibly polite when it happened, often left security staff chagrined.

I do think it is a problem. It's certainly not a good thing. I'm not sure what to do about it, though.

Oddly, I saw a South Park episode about this just a couple of nights ago.

Willravel · 01-02-2009, 05:16 PM

It's stupid. It's a massive waste of time. Plenty of "terrorists" have been white or black or Asian. The idea that somehow singling out one race or religion could possibly make anyone safer is a sign of systemic racism and unfounded, ignorant fear.

blahblah454 · 01-02-2009, 05:31 PM

I think that is complete and utter bullshit. I feel that the world kind of has its head up its own ass ever since 9/11.

ASU2003 · 01-02-2009, 05:35 PM

People flying are still a little paranoid. Sometimes it is for a good reason, other times it isn't. This is one of those times it wasn't, but still wasn't exactly the best comment to be saying. AirTran should have rebooked them though.

If a Muslim person wanted to get a big lawsuit settlement after getting harassed and investigated, they would just have to do one thing. On a long flight after reading the Quran get their prayer rug out and start praying towards Mecca, they have to do it 5 times a day. I would say that it would freak out somebody and they would get questioned just for practicing their religion.

roachboy · 01-02-2009, 05:45 PM

why didn't airtran put the paranoids on another plane?
it's just as obvious a response as what they did.
maybe there's a market for special paranoid flights. you could charge an extra 200 bucks a ticket. if anything disturbs them, they can be put on another paranoid flight for free. with the extra revenue, they could change the appointments of the plane interior---even the seats could be white.

i know alot of people who have to build extra time into their efforts to catch a flight. some talk about it as a special surcharge for flying while arab. but this generally involves those pointless security checkpoints and some extra quality time with special rent-a-cops in little close search rooms. what's strange is that not everyone who talks about this actually has to deal with it--only folk with particular names or who are associated with particular countries it seems. maybe there's a list.

Xerxys · 01-02-2009, 09:45 PM

I hearby agree with everyone that racial profiling is wrong. BUT, if ONLY ONE person was to stop and point at me and say "I dont feel comfortable flying with him", I would very readily ask to be frisked and strip searched over and over again until security's satisfaction is appeased. If I am to be late for the flight and miss it, then may I please be compensated for my time lost.

I EXPECT THE SAME FROM EVERY SINGLE FUCKIN ONE OF YOU!!! THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ENOUGH SECURITY!!!!

dlish · 01-02-2009, 11:30 PM

xeryxs..your right, there is no such thing as enough security. i say put everyone through the same screening process. i'd have no problem like that.

but pulling people out of line because some fear filled pensioners have got their knickers in a knot is unfair and unjust. i remember arriving at JFK airport last year and there was 2 indian Sikh males waiting in line. i made a comment to my friend these guys were sitting ducks, and lo and behold these guys got 'randomly selected'.

ASU- just wanted to correct you there on the islamic prayer rituals. you're quite correct that observant muslims prayer 5 times a day. but the rest of your comment is grossly misstated. im not sure how much you know about muslim prayers rituals, but in a nutshell, one is performed at dawn, then noon, then mid afternoon, then sunset then at night. the rituals rules for performing prayers while travelling basically mean that the traveller can perform the midday and mid afternoon prayer together, and the sunset and night prayer together. so essentially its 3 prayer times. for short distance travel (a few hours) this is not necesary and usually wont really affect any prayer timings.

in long distance travel however, if it becomes necesary to pray on a flight, it can be done sitting, and there is no need for kneeling and prostrations that you usually see in mosques, so there is no need for prayer mats.

but yes, if i did want to freak somene out, and i was looking for some extra pocketmoney, it would be an idea.

robot_parade · 01-03-2009, 06:27 AM

So wait, to play the devil's advocate here a bit...

From the POV of the airline personnel, a passenger reports that another group of passengers is 'acting suspiciously' and 'talking about the airline security'. What options to you have? If you ignore it, and it turns out the people *are* terrorists, you are screwed. Completely, utterly screwed. You're the guy that "Could have prevented the next 9/11, if only you'd heeded the warnings!"

That said, in this instance, it probably had a lot to do with their dress and 'different-ness'. And while it would be great if everyone could Just Get Along, and it's terrible that these people were inconvenienced because of their religion/differentness, and they should be recompensed....when you have people proclaiming Death To America in the name of Islam, it's kind-of hard to be surprised that some people in this country are even more paranoid of muslims than usual. (And yes, I know Islam isn't about that, but it's still a fact that what OBL + co have/are doing, they're doing in the name of their conception of Islam).

That said, I was in the airport the other day, and who was in the 'special' security area getting the once over? Some poor schmuck in a turban.

roachboy · 01-03-2009, 06:59 AM

there has to be a point past which this logic of assuming anything said involving "security" that implicates someone who is muslim is legitmate enough to act on should stop, yes?
why for example is it not just as reasonable for an airline to talk with both group--the paranoids and the objects of that paranoia if you like--determine that nothing more's going on than paranoia and announce as much to the people who are on the plane?

while it's maybe more awkward as a solution, it does not have the same effect of legitimating this residual paranoia tipping into racism that the "war on terror" is built around as a brand.

this is not to say that there are no legit concerns at any point--but it seems to me important at this juncture that folk be confronted with the simple fact that not all "concerns" are legitimate and that they be called out for setting into motion concerns that are "concerns"--it seems to me that this would enable the security argument (which i personally find to be nonsense, but that's my own position and not something i would generalize) to appeal to those it appeals to, but would balance it to some extent by making just as public the fact of paranoia.

think about it: if you were going to carry out an action on a plane, why would you sit around talking abotu security? if you were going to carry out an action on a plane, why wouldn't you dress as innocuously as possible? if you were going to carry out an action, everything would hinge on your NOT drawing attention to yourself....

The_Jazz · 01-03-2009, 07:35 AM

As you all know, I fly a LOT (86 flights last year, as best I can count). And yes, every passenger in the post 9/11 world has the duty to step up and say something in the event that they see something suspicious.

And they have the duty to think twice when they hear something.

Honestly, if I'd been on that flight, when we reboarded the plane after being paraded past the "terrorists", I would have sought out the person that "reported" what was said and smacked them in the back of the head. I really hope that there is a record of who reported the family to the airline so that that individual can receive constant reminders that they are, in fact, a complete moron. Terrorists do no travel with young children. The center of the plane is the most structurally sound.

Xerxys, if you (or anyone else) pointed at me and said, "I don't feel comfortable flying with him", my reaction would be that I really don't feel comfortable flying with you (or whomever) because you're probably one of those people that's going to want to go for a stroll through the emergency exit at 30,000 feet. I've been on one plane with one of those types - it's not going to happen again. And you know what, I never would have thought that guy was a threat since he didn't act odd until we were up in the air.

Really, AirTran should be ashamed of themselves for not immediately rebooking the family. It sounds like they might actually be according to the latest I heard (refunded the tickets, offered to pick up the USAir tickets AND fly them back from Orlando for free), but they still look like idiots. The thing is that they did the prudent thing by pulling these folks off the flight when they heard from a passenger that there might be a threat - I don't have a problem with that, per se, but they obviously missed that the reporter was a complete moron.

Strange Famous · 01-03-2009, 10:05 AM

This case in particular may seem quite petty on the airlines behalf - but at the end of the day the "social profiling" that exists is there for a reason.

murp0434 · 01-03-2009, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

there has to be a point past which this logic of assuming anything said involving "security" that implicates someone who is muslim is legitmate enough to act on should stop, yes?
why for example is it not just as reasonable for an airline to talk with both group--the paranoids and the objects of that paranoia if you like--determine that nothing more's going on than paranoia and announce as much to the people who are on the plane?

while it's maybe more awkward as a solution, it does not have the same effect of legitimating this residual paranoia tipping into racism that the "war on terror" is built around as a brand.

this is not to say that there are no legit concerns at any point--but it seems to me important at this juncture that folk be confronted with the simple fact that not all "concerns" are legitimate and that they be called out for setting into motion concerns that are "concerns"--it seems to me that this would enable the security argument (which i personally find to be nonsense, but that's my own position and not something i would generalize) to appeal to those it appeals to, but would balance it to some extent by making just as public the fact of paranoia.

think about it: if you were going to carry out an action on a plane, why would you sit around talking abotu security? if you were going to carry out an action on a plane, why wouldn't you dress as innocuously as possible? if you were going to carry out an action, everything would hinge on your NOT drawing attention to yourself....

EXACTLY. I wouldn't walk on a plane in a turban and robes with a bomb strapped to my chest if i actually wanted to accomplish anything; I'd stay quiet and dress in jeans. Nobody who's actually planning on doing something would be planning it in line. "Hey, Joe, let's bomb this plane and kill a bunch of people in the name of Christianity." "Hey, great idea! strap that dirty bomb and a couple of M16s to my ass and let's get it on!" they probably already know what they have in mind and dressing the part has long been part of the deal. Profiling only gives the advantage to those with two brain cells who are smart enough to trade traditional garb for jeans for this one time...and makes security look like assholes, every time. As far as airport security goes, I agree with xerxys there's no such thing as too much security. as far as special "random" strip searches go, let's get back to "randomly" selecting hot blondes.

Xerxys · 01-03-2009, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by murp0434

as far as special "random" strip searches go, let's get back to "randomly" selecting hot blondes.

OMG you too, I always thought the cheerleaders in every nicks game were planning on doing something.

That aside, guys, there's no definition for suspicious activity. If you as much as eat your sandwich wrong I will tell the guard and swear on it that you have a stash of Marijuana up your A$$!!

I've ever been stopped in Paris before boarding a train for random checking and had some hot french cop rummage through my underwear. Granted they are not always hot but the thing is..... The_Jazz I'm the most normal looking guy and if you can single me out, I believe the system works, somehow.

dlish · 01-04-2009, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

This case in particular may seem quite petty on the airlines behalf - but at the end of the day the "social profiling" that exists is there for a reason.

yes, and peoples liberties are there for a reason too.

i have no problem with airport security measures. i endorse them. but not when it is not random.

as others have pointed out, im sure that mohammad atta and his boys didnt wear tradtional arab clothes. if you recall, they were instructed to wear western attire and shave their beards etc. they were probably almost certainly single, and had chips on their shoulder.

i dont believe social profiling works. just because i have an arab name doesnt give someone the right to give me a hard time over the next person. im all for random searches. pick a seat no, pick a letter of someones first or name, pick every 2nd person... just dont pick me because im black, traditional, emo, goth, have tatoos and piercings etc. Just because i stand out, doesnt mean im a terrorist. that just doesnt work.

MSD · 01-05-2009, 10:19 AM

The terrorists have won. Instead of safety, we get discriminatory policies that single out innocent people for their religion or manner of dress and prohibitions on liquids because of a nonexistent threat of a binary liquid explosive that doesn't exist outside of Die Hard: With a Vengeance.

Go ahead and make everyone x-ray their shoes and walk through a bomb-sniffing puffer -- that might find something. Pick people randomly for an extra secure search and send TSA people through from time to time to make sure everything is working like it should. I'm sick of people freaking out because Fox News has scared them into thinking that every Muslim is a terrorist. Stop letting the high school dropouts to whom we're allegedly entrusting our lives pick on people because they're afraid of "a-rabs" (I thought that was one of those slurs that had died in the '70s, but boy was I wrong.) Terrorists aren't stupid, that's why they managed to hijack 4 planes and kill a few thousand people.

JumpinJesus · 01-05-2009, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSD

The terrorists have won....

Remember that Twilight Zone episode - "The Monsters are Due on Maple Street"?

At the end, it showed the two alien beings talking to each other and saying:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twilight Zone

"Understand the procedure now? Just stop a few of their machines, and radios, and telephones, and lawnmowers, throw them into darkness for a few hours, and then sit back and watch the pattern."

"And this pattern is always the same?"

"With few variations. They pick the most dangerous enemy they can find....and it's themselves. All we need do is sit back and watch."

"Then I take it this place, this Maple Street, is not unique."

"By no means. Their world is full of Maple Streets, and we'll go from one to the other and let them destroy themselves. One to the other. One to the other. One to the other."

Deltona Couple · 01-06-2009, 07:21 PM

OK, am I the only one who is sitting here thinking "We hear about this one incident on 'racial profiling' by 'randomly' picking a group of Muslim dressed people, but how many THOUSANDS of other people are randomly selected EVERY DAY that are NOT standing out in some way?" I mean seriously. I have traveled a bit since 9/11 and I see atleast one out of every 10 people taken out of line for 'random' checks. Hell I am as white as I can be: Blonde hair, blue eyes, etc...and I have several times been selected 'randomly' for checks. And since I am white, it isn't important. But when a person if of a different race or religion, suddenly it is racial profiling??? I am sorry, but I think that is a bunch of BS! It makes the news, it allows the media to AGAIN bring up something in the limelight because that is what the media thrives on. I mean come on. do you REALLY think that random searches come out once a day? there are THOUSANDS of them every day all over the world.

Now before I get flamed here, I am by no means saying that racial profiling is right. I am NOT saying that it doesn't happen, but EVERY TIME a person is 'randomly' selected, and they are different, everyone thinks that it HAS to be profiling!

dlish · 01-06-2009, 07:50 PM

just got back in to dubai from Sydney.

ironically, i got picked out to be tested for explosives on my clothes, insie and outside my bags and laptop.

go figure.

Willravel · 01-06-2009, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlish

just got back in to dubai from Sydney.

ironically, i got picked out to be tested for explosives on my clothes, inside and outside my bags and laptop.

go figure.

In Dubai? Jeez.

BTW, are they allowed to turn on your laptop and check out what's on your hard drive in the UAE? I'm not familiar with warrants there.

dlish · 01-06-2009, 07:57 PM

no i got checked in sydney.

But porn is illegal here, and i have heard of a case from a friend who had a lot of CD's with him. they suspected that he had porn on them, so they took him to a room ad checked out his CD collection. they didnt turn his laptop on, but if they were going to, i dont think you could say no anyways.

Willravel · 01-06-2009, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlish

no i got checked in sydney.

Ah. That makes a lot more sense. I would imagine pulling aside every Persian and Arab in Dubai International could become a problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlish

But porn is illegal here, and i have heard of a case from a friend who had a lot of CD's with him. they suspected that he had porn on them, so they took him to a room ad checked out his CD collection. they didnt turn his laptop on, but if they were going to, i dont think you could say no anyways.

I had no idea. I wonder if that makes Australian women more...

*off to Australia*

dlish · 01-07-2009, 06:17 PM

heres another case i read about today. the man had a t-shirt that had the words "we will not be silent" in arabic written on the front (with english translation).

they pulled him aside, made him cover his t-shirt and changed his seat from the front of the plane to the back. why? because ignorant passengers who cannot read arabic felt uncomfortable because of the arabic words written on this mans t-shirt. had it been chinese, swahili, hindi it would have mattered not.

i have no idea what the intention, motive or meaning of the passenger was. but even if it was a political t-shirt, no one has the right to treat you like a 2nd class ciizen.

i wonder if a pretty petite busty blonde wearing that tshirt would have been garnered the same attantion as an arab.

Quote:

Passenger wins pay out after Arab T-shirt ban | Travel News | News.com.au

Passenger wins pay out after Arab T-shirt ban

AN airline passenger forced to cover his T-shirt because it displayed Arabic script has been awarded $337,000 in compensation. Raed Jarrar received the pay out from two US Transportation Security Authority officials and from JetBlue Airways following the August 2006 incident at New York's JFK Airport.

"The outcome of this case is a victory for free speech and a blow to the discriminatory practice of racial profiling," said Aden Fine, a lawyer for the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU).

Mr Jarrar, a US resident, was apprehended as he waited to board a JetBlue flight from New York to Oakland, California, and told to remove his shirt, which had written on it in Arabic: "We will not be silent."

He was told other passengers felt uncomfortable because an Arabic-inscribed T-shirt in an airport was like "wearing a T-shirt at a bank stating, I am a robber,"' the ACLU said.

Mr Jarrar eventually agreed to cover his shirt with another provided by JetBlue. He was allowed aboard but his seat was changed from the front to the back of the aircraft.

Last week, nine Muslims, including three children, were ordered off a domestic US flight after passengers heard what they believed were suspicious remarks about security.

Although the passengers, eight of them US citizens, were cleared by the FBI, they were reportedly still barred from the AirTran flight.

Security has been at a high level in US airports since the September 11, 2001 hijacked airliner attacks against the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon in Washington.

However, rights groups and representatives of the Muslim community say the security measures have led to frequent discrimination and harassment.

MSD · 01-08-2009, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JumpinJesus

Remember that Twilight Zone episode - "The Monsters are Due on Maple Street"?

At the end, it showed the two alien beings talking to each other and saying:

My favorite episode. A brilliant social commentary that will always hold true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deltona Couple

OK, am I the only one who is sitting here thinking "We hear about this one incident on 'racial profiling' by 'randomly' picking a group of Muslim dressed people, but how many THOUSANDS of other people are randomly selected EVERY DAY that are NOT standing out in some way?" I mean seriously. I have traveled a bit since 9/11 and I see atleast one out of every 10 people taken out of line for 'random' checks. Hell I am as white as I can be: Blonde hair, blue eyes, etc...and I have several times been selected 'randomly' for checks. And since I am white, it isn't important. But when a person if of a different race or religion, suddenly it is racial profiling??? I am sorry, but I think that is a bunch of BS! It makes the news, it allows the media to AGAIN bring up something in the limelight because that is what the media thrives on. I mean come on. do you REALLY think that random searches come out once a day? there are THOUSANDS of them every day all over the world.

Now before I get flamed here, I am by no means saying that racial profiling is right. I am NOT saying that it doesn't happen, but EVERY TIME a person is 'randomly' selected, and they are different, everyone thinks that it HAS to be profiling!

This wasn't random, this was a family being removed from a flight because a bunch of Muslims were talking how close other planes were and made ignorant passengers uncomfortable. If white people said it, nobody would have given a shit. I was talking with a friend about the "can't say bomb on an airplane" bit from Meet The Parents last time I was in an airport and nobody cared because we were just a couple of white guys who looked ordinary except for being unusually tall. I got to Miami and found a .22 casing in my luggage (anyone who shoots will tell you that those fucking things end up everywhere) and had managed to get past security.

Deltona Couple · 01-08-2009, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSD

My favorite episode. A brilliant social commentary that will always hold true.

This wasn't random, this was a family being removed from a flight because a bunch of Muslims were talking how close other planes were and made ignorant passengers uncomfortable. If white people said it, nobody would have given a shit. I was talking with a friend about the "can't say bomb on an airplane" bit from Meet The Parents last time I was in an airport and nobody cared because we were just a couple of white guys who looked ordinary except for being unusually tall. I got to Miami and found a .22 casing in my luggage (anyone who shoots will tell you that those fucking things end up everywhere) and had managed to get past security.

While we all have our opinions, I still do not onsider this profiling. If i heard ANYONE making a comment that made me uncomfortable I would say something. Maybe it is just me, but personally I would be fine with ANYONE being removed from a flight because someone was concerned about a comment. I was on a flight even BEFORE 9/11 and me and 3 of my friends were removed from a flight because someone claimed that we were talking about bombs...which we were...considering one of my fellow Marines was in explosive ordinance disposal...Looking back I realize that our discussion was DEFINATELY not in good taste considering the situation, but none of us really thought about it until after. So if someone makes a comment that makes another person uncomfortable (i.e. safety conditions, 'wow I am right by the engine, can you imagin if..." then sorry, time to get checked out and if necessary removed from that flight. Now did the airlines take things overboard considering they were a Muslim family? Maybe, I wasn't there, and I really don't put much faith in the media these days. But again, this is just my opinion.

roachboy · 01-08-2009, 08:02 AM

i was thinking about this just now for some reason---the term "profiling" in this context isn't correct. profiling is used by bureaucracies as a device for narrowing the pool of all possible people who might theoretical do x to a particular pool. whence the famous profiling cases involving the nj state cops a few years ago, which if i remember involved looking for cars that fell under the "driving while black" profile to stop just, you know, in case there drugs aboard. the assumption is obviously racist. in an aerodrome, where you'd get profiling is with the rent-a-cops at the "security" charade checkpoints--and it is at this point that many folk i know get to spend extra time with those fine security folk in those nice little rooms apparently for "flying while arab."

the incidents that prompted the thread are examples of the effects of marketing the "war on terror".
to my mind, they're spontaneously produced examples of officially sanctioned racism and paranoia.

that's why i think that a more appropriate response to such is to if not stigmatize then at least place the burden of inconvenience on the people who make the complaints.

remove the complaining people, let them bounce flight to flight until they find one white enough to be comfortable with.

no production has to be made about this--no need to embarrass them i suppose---but make it more difficult for them so they won't be so free with this stuff.

and that way, paranoids can feel comfortable and regular folk who happen to be of the wrong skin color of attire can get on with traveling.

it's a win/win idea.

canuckguy · 01-08-2009, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlish

heres another case i read about today. the man had a t-shirt that had the words "we will not be silent" in arabic written on the front (with english translation).

they pulled him aside, made him cover his t-shirt and changed his seat from the front of the plane to the back. why? because ignorant passengers who cannot read arabic felt uncomfortable because of the arabic words written on this mans t-shirt. had it been chinese, swahili, hindi it would have mattered not.

i have no idea what the intention, motive or meaning of the passenger was. but even if it was a political t-shirt, no one has the right to treat you like a 2nd class ciizen.

i wonder if a pretty petite busty blonde wearing that tshirt would have been garnered the same attantion as an arab.

How do you know that people could not understand what was on the shirt or that those ignorant people would have ignored a shirt with xzy writing on it? Come on now.

I feel for arabs flying today, it has to be tough because i know even as a white man flying that i feel uncomfortable with the security process and I can only imagine what it must feel like to have all eyes on you.

Now first off, stupid choice for a shirt when flying. I think all people with common sense know that the chances that the arab family two rows up from you are terrorist is zero. Just like common sense would tell me as an arab man i might want to act/dress in a way that does not draw attention to myself when flying.

As stupid as that is, you do what you have to do to get by. I see no reason to be upset at being pulled aside with that shirt on with the existing rules/stupid people in place. The process is in place to give people a false sense of security, the rules are stupid plain and simple. But again challenging them or getting upset with them at the departure gate is probably not the best move just like wearing that shirt.

Should i be upset if i go and rent a Ryder truck and happen to be carrying with me bags of fertilizer? i really think common sense has to come into play with some personal responsibility.

I would love to say then just avoid flying then, but that would make the jackass's who pointed out the shirt the winners.

What we need is two airlines. one for the fucking soccer mom's and worry warts, and one for us regular folks who can show up 10 minutes before the plane takes off, no screening...fly at your own risk. (stolen from George carlin).

dlish · 01-08-2009, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deltona Couple

Now did the airlines take things overboard considering they were a Muslim family? Maybe, I wasn't there, and I really don't put much faith in the media these days. But again, this is just my opinion.

i have no problem with all people being subjected to searches and interrogations based on solid suspicions. that includes me. but the issue i have isnt realy with the suspicions, because they will always exist as long as the war on terror as the war on terror exists instead of a war on ignorance. the gripe i hold is what happened after they were interrogated. the fact that they were not allowed to board the flight and denied a flight later is what really does my head in.

when i was pulled aside at sydney airport i had no problem with providing whatever information they needed, although it was still nerve racking. stangely enough i was thinking of this thread when they called me in.

deep down though, i always had the fact that i could well have been pulled in because of my arab name and heritage. and that still really upset me.

Willravel · 01-08-2009, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

that's why i think that a more appropriate response to such is to, if not stigmatize then at least place the burden of inconvenience on the people who make the complaints.

remove the complaining people, let them bounce flight to flight until they find one white enough to be comfortable with.

An entertaining idea, though it would be met with trouble upon it's first instance. America loves to complain. America loves to complain about situations in which they complained. Can you imagine the compound complaining from being inconvenienced because of complaining about 'trrrists'? I can see the blogs now... "I was kicked off the flight because I didn't want to fly with Bin Laden!!"

And then come the lawsuits.

I'll bet they don't have these problems in Sweden. Maybe I should go to Sweden.

World's King · 01-08-2009, 10:34 AM

Social Profiling = Racism

Thank you and good night.

Deltona Couple · 01-09-2009, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlish

i have no problem with all people being subjected to searches and interrogations based on solid suspicions. that includes me. but the issue i have isnt realy with the suspicions, because they will always exist as long as the war on terror as the war on terror exists instead of a war on ignorance. the gripe i hold is what happened after they were interrogated. the fact that they were not allowed to board the flight and denied a flight later is what really does my head in.

when i was pulled aside at sydney airport i had no problem with providing whatever information they needed, although it was still nerve racking. stangely enough i was thinking of this thread when they called me in.

deep down though, i always had the fact that i could well have been pulled in because of my arab name and heritage. and that still really upset me.

If you had read a few of the articles involved, you would find that the REASON they were denied that flight, was of course the initial complaint made by a passenger...they wont hold a flight while they wait for the person being 'checked' to get the all-clear....the reson they were denied the second flight was because the airline said that they had not received the OK from the feds that they were cleared.....

The_Jazz · 01-09-2009, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deltona Couple

the reson they were denied the second flight was because the airline said that they had not received the OK from the feds that they were cleared.....

They were pulled off the flight because of two teenaged girls that GROSSLY overreacted to what was said.

The Feds were right to interrogate them. No one is debating that point.

The Feds then cleared them and informed AirTran that they were clear to fly. AirTran refused to fly them. The Feds then got the assistance of USAir, who was happy to fly them to Orlando.

Muslim Taken Off Plane By AirTran Speaks Out : NPR

Perhaps you need to read a few more of the articles involved.

01-02-2009, 05:13 PM	#2 (permalink)
snowy Kick Ass Kunoichi Location: Oregon	I've been exposed to social profiling. I was traveling with a large group of university students to a residential life conference in Minnesota, and one of my colleagues was pulled out of our group to be randomly searched at every airport we stopped at because of his visible piercings and tattoos. He was quite relaxed about it, and said it was par for the course given his ornamentation, that he'd gotten used to it. His attitude about it, and his willingness to be incredibly polite when it happened, often left security staff chagrined. I do think it is a problem. It's certainly not a good thing. I'm not sure what to do about it, though. Oddly, I saw a South Park episode about this just a couple of nights ago. __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

01-02-2009, 05:35 PM	#5 (permalink)
ASU2003 immoral minority Location: Back in Ohio	People flying are still a little paranoid. Sometimes it is for a good reason, other times it isn't. This is one of those times it wasn't, but still wasn't exactly the best comment to be saying. AirTran should have rebooked them though. If a Muslim person wanted to get a big lawsuit settlement after getting harassed and investigated, they would just have to do one thing. On a long flight after reading the Quran get their prayer rug out and start praying towards Mecca, they have to do it 5 times a day. I would say that it would freak out somebody and they would get questioned just for practicing their religion. Last edited by ASU2003; 01-02-2009 at 05:48 PM..

01-02-2009, 05:45 PM	#6 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	why didn't airtran put the paranoids on another plane? it's just as obvious a response as what they did. maybe there's a market for special paranoid flights. you could charge an extra 200 bucks a ticket. if anything disturbs them, they can be put on another paranoid flight for free. with the extra revenue, they could change the appointments of the plane interior---even the seats could be white. i know alot of people who have to build extra time into their efforts to catch a flight. some talk about it as a special surcharge for flying while arab. but this generally involves those pointless security checkpoints and some extra quality time with special rent-a-cops in little close search rooms. what's strange is that not everyone who talks about this actually has to deal with it--only folk with particular names or who are associated with particular countries it seems. maybe there's a list. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

01-02-2009, 11:30 PM	#8 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	xeryxs..your right, there is no such thing as enough security. i say put everyone through the same screening process. i'd have no problem like that. but pulling people out of line because some fear filled pensioners have got their knickers in a knot is unfair and unjust. i remember arriving at JFK airport last year and there was 2 indian Sikh males waiting in line. i made a comment to my friend these guys were sitting ducks, and lo and behold these guys got 'randomly selected'. ASU- just wanted to correct you there on the islamic prayer rituals. you're quite correct that observant muslims prayer 5 times a day. but the rest of your comment is grossly misstated. im not sure how much you know about muslim prayers rituals, but in a nutshell, one is performed at dawn, then noon, then mid afternoon, then sunset then at night. the rituals rules for performing prayers while travelling basically mean that the traveller can perform the midday and mid afternoon prayer together, and the sunset and night prayer together. so essentially its 3 prayer times. for short distance travel (a few hours) this is not necesary and usually wont really affect any prayer timings. in long distance travel however, if it becomes necesary to pray on a flight, it can be done sitting, and there is no need for kneeling and prostrations that you usually see in mosques, so there is no need for prayer mats. but yes, if i did want to freak somene out, and i was looking for some extra pocketmoney, it would be an idea. __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

01-03-2009, 06:59 AM	#10 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	there has to be a point past which this logic of assuming anything said involving "security" that implicates someone who is muslim is legitmate enough to act on should stop, yes? why for example is it not just as reasonable for an airline to talk with both group--the paranoids and the objects of that paranoia if you like--determine that nothing more's going on than paranoia and announce as much to the people who are on the plane? while it's maybe more awkward as a solution, it does not have the same effect of legitimating this residual paranoia tipping into racism that the "war on terror" is built around as a brand. this is not to say that there are no legit concerns at any point--but it seems to me important at this juncture that folk be confronted with the simple fact that not all "concerns" are legitimate and that they be called out for setting into motion concerns that are "concerns"--it seems to me that this would enable the security argument (which i personally find to be nonsense, but that's my own position and not something i would generalize) to appeal to those it appeals to, but would balance it to some extent by making just as public the fact of paranoia. think about it: if you were going to carry out an action on a plane, why would you sit around talking abotu security? if you were going to carry out an action on a plane, why wouldn't you dress as innocuously as possible? if you were going to carry out an action, everything would hinge on your NOT drawing attention to yourself.... __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

01-02-2009, 05:16 PM	#3 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	It's stupid. It's a massive waste of time. Plenty of "terrorists" have been white or black or Asian. The idea that somehow singling out one race or religion could possibly make anyone safer is a sign of systemic racism and unfounded, ignorant fear.

01-02-2009, 05:31 PM	#4 (permalink)
blahblah454 Let's put a smile on that face Location: On the road...	I think that is complete and utter bullshit. I feel that the world kind of has its head up its own ass ever since 9/11.

01-02-2009, 09:45 PM	#7 (permalink)
Xerxys Junkie Location: My head.	I hearby agree with everyone that racial profiling is wrong. BUT, if ONLY ONE person was to stop and point at me and say "I dont feel comfortable flying with him", I would very readily ask to be frisked and strip searched over and over again until security's satisfaction is appeased. If I am to be late for the flight and miss it, then may I please be compensated for my time lost. I EXPECT THE SAME FROM EVERY SINGLE FUCKIN ONE OF YOU!!! THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ENOUGH SECURITY!!!!

01-03-2009, 06:27 AM	#9 (permalink)
robot_parade Junkie Location: San Antonio, TX	So wait, to play the devil's advocate here a bit... From the POV of the airline personnel, a passenger reports that another group of passengers is 'acting suspiciously' and 'talking about the airline security'. What options to you have? If you ignore it, and it turns out the people are terrorists, you are screwed. Completely, utterly screwed. You're the guy that "Could have prevented the next 9/11, if only you'd heeded the warnings!" That said, in this instance, it probably had a lot to do with their dress and 'different-ness'. And while it would be great if everyone could Just Get Along, and it's terrible that these people were inconvenienced because of their religion/differentness, and they should be recompensed....when you have people proclaiming Death To America in the name of Islam, it's kind-of hard to be surprised that some people in this country are even more paranoid of muslims than usual. (And yes, I know Islam isn't about that, but it's still a fact that what OBL + co have/are doing, they're doing in the name of their conception of Islam). That said, I was in the airport the other day, and who was in the 'special' security area getting the once over? Some poor schmuck in a turban.

01-03-2009, 07:35 AM	#11 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	As you all know, I fly a LOT (86 flights last year, as best I can count). And yes, every passenger in the post 9/11 world has the duty to step up and say something in the event that they see something suspicious. And they have the duty to think twice when they hear something. Honestly, if I'd been on that flight, when we reboarded the plane after being paraded past the "terrorists", I would have sought out the person that "reported" what was said and smacked them in the back of the head. I really hope that there is a record of who reported the family to the airline so that that individual can receive constant reminders that they are, in fact, a complete moron. Terrorists do no travel with young children. The center of the plane is the most structurally sound. Xerxys, if you (or anyone else) pointed at me and said, "I don't feel comfortable flying with him", my reaction would be that I really don't feel comfortable flying with you (or whomever) because you're probably one of those people that's going to want to go for a stroll through the emergency exit at 30,000 feet. I've been on one plane with one of those types - it's not going to happen again. And you know what, I never would have thought that guy was a threat since he didn't act odd until we were up in the air. Really, AirTran should be ashamed of themselves for not immediately rebooking the family. It sounds like they might actually be according to the latest I heard (refunded the tickets, offered to pick up the USAir tickets AND fly them back from Orlando for free), but they still look like idiots. The thing is that they did the prudent thing by pulling these folks off the flight when they heard from a passenger that there might be a threat - I don't have a problem with that, per se, but they obviously missed that the reporter was a complete moron. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

01-03-2009, 10:05 AM	#12 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	This case in particular may seem quite petty on the airlines behalf - but at the end of the day the "social profiling" that exists is there for a reason. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

01-05-2009, 10:19 AM	#16 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	The terrorists have won. Instead of safety, we get discriminatory policies that single out innocent people for their religion or manner of dress and prohibitions on liquids because of a nonexistent threat of a binary liquid explosive that doesn't exist outside of Die Hard: With a Vengeance. Go ahead and make everyone x-ray their shoes and walk through a bomb-sniffing puffer -- that might find something. Pick people randomly for an extra secure search and send TSA people through from time to time to make sure everything is working like it should. I'm sick of people freaking out because Fox News has scared them into thinking that every Muslim is a terrorist. Stop letting the high school dropouts to whom we're allegedly entrusting our lives pick on people because they're afraid of "a-rabs" (I thought that was one of those slurs that had died in the '70s, but boy was I wrong.) Terrorists aren't stupid, that's why they managed to hijack 4 planes and kill a few thousand people.

01-06-2009, 07:21 PM	#18 (permalink)
Deltona Couple Addict Location: Spring, Texas	OK, am I the only one who is sitting here thinking "We hear about this one incident on 'racial profiling' by 'randomly' picking a group of Muslim dressed people, but how many THOUSANDS of other people are randomly selected EVERY DAY that are NOT standing out in some way?" I mean seriously. I have traveled a bit since 9/11 and I see atleast one out of every 10 people taken out of line for 'random' checks. Hell I am as white as I can be: Blonde hair, blue eyes, etc...and I have several times been selected 'randomly' for checks. And since I am white, it isn't important. But when a person if of a different race or religion, suddenly it is racial profiling??? I am sorry, but I think that is a bunch of BS! It makes the news, it allows the media to AGAIN bring up something in the limelight because that is what the media thrives on. I mean come on. do you REALLY think that random searches come out once a day? there are THOUSANDS of them every day all over the world. Now before I get flamed here, I am by no means saying that racial profiling is right. I am NOT saying that it doesn't happen, but EVERY TIME a person is 'randomly' selected, and they are different, everyone thinks that it HAS to be profiling! __________________ "It is not that I have failed, but that I have found 10,000 ways that it DOESN'T work!" --Thomas Edison

01-06-2009, 07:50 PM	#19 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	just got back in to dubai from Sydney. ironically, i got picked out to be tested for explosives on my clothes, insie and outside my bags and laptop. go figure. __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

01-06-2009, 07:57 PM	#21 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	no i got checked in sydney. But porn is illegal here, and i have heard of a case from a friend who had a lot of CD's with him. they suspected that he had porn on them, so they took him to a room ad checked out his CD collection. they didnt turn his laptop on, but if they were going to, i dont think you could say no anyways. __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

01-08-2009, 08:02 AM	#26 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	i was thinking about this just now for some reason---the term "profiling" in this context isn't correct. profiling is used by bureaucracies as a device for narrowing the pool of all possible people who might theoretical do x to a particular pool. whence the famous profiling cases involving the nj state cops a few years ago, which if i remember involved looking for cars that fell under the "driving while black" profile to stop just, you know, in case there drugs aboard. the assumption is obviously racist. in an aerodrome, where you'd get profiling is with the rent-a-cops at the "security" charade checkpoints--and it is at this point that many folk i know get to spend extra time with those fine security folk in those nice little rooms apparently for "flying while arab." the incidents that prompted the thread are examples of the effects of marketing the "war on terror". to my mind, they're spontaneously produced examples of officially sanctioned racism and paranoia. that's why i think that a more appropriate response to such is to if not stigmatize then at least place the burden of inconvenience on the people who make the complaints. remove the complaining people, let them bounce flight to flight until they find one white enough to be comfortable with. no production has to be made about this--no need to embarrass them i suppose---but make it more difficult for them so they won't be so free with this stuff. and that way, paranoids can feel comfortable and regular folk who happen to be of the wrong skin color of attire can get on with traveling. it's a win/win idea. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 01-08-2009 at 08:06 AM..

01-08-2009, 10:34 AM	#30 (permalink)
World's King Here Location: Denver City Denver	Social Profiling = Racism Thank you and good night. __________________ heavy is the head that wears the crown