genuinegirly

I came across this article today at CNN.com. Thought I would share and try to get some discussion moving.
Here's a link to the full article: Australian PM: Wildfire arson is mass murder - CNN.com
First, I want to say that my heart goes out to the people who have been affected by these fires.

My basic understanding of this portion of Australia is that it has a fire season every year, somewhat like southern California. I assumed that fires were a natural part of the ecosystem but this year they've gotten out of hand. Are most caused by arson, as this article seems to point? And do you suppose that mass murder or holocaust was the intention, if indeed it was arson?

What is the population dynamic of this portion of Victoria? Are they mainly poor, rich, white, asian, or indigenous? Is there a group akin to the KKK at work here, or do you think it's the sorry result of an out-of-control drought-ridden countryside?

Help me make sense of this disaster. Is it natural, man-made, or both?

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dksuddeth

thus begins the witchhunt for someone to blame all of their natural disaster woes upon. I feel sorry for the john Q they try to pin this on.

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Glory's Sun

No idea if it was started by arson.. but on the radio this morning they said they had arrested a couple of men who had gone behind where the fires had already been and restarted them. So by that, it could be assumed that they were initially started by someone, but at this stage.. it's impossible to say.

It could easily be nature being a bitch or someone being stupid.

BadNick

I didn't vote in the poll since I think the fires are mostly natural with some incidents of man-made fires.

From what I picked up from news reports, most of the fires are from natural causes. The weather has been extremely dry and a recent heat wave made conditions even worse.

I also heard the news report saying they arrested people who are alleged to have reset fires after they were put out....I haven't heard if they had a reason to do that, like buring a fire break which is commonly done to reduce the combustible material in the path of the fire.

Even in forest fires in the U.S. there always seem to be some incidents caused by humans, either on purpose aka arson, or by carelessness with campfires, spark discharges from chimneys, parking a car with a hot engine (with a SUPER VERY HOT catalytic converter) on dry grass high enough to catch fire...I've even scorched low grass in my driveway like that.

It's a tragedy any way you look at it. I suspect it will turn out to be some wacked out people contributing to the problems caused by natural conditions.

dlish

for those unfamiliar with the australian bushfire season and the psyche of australian firebugs, let me just clear a few things up.

a very large number of bushfires in australia every year are started intentionally by firebugs. why they do it i do not know, but thats something different altogether.

bushfires obviously need fuel, oxygen and a catalyst. the fuel being the trees. obviously oxygen is everywhere, but its very rare to find acatalyst, not matter what happens.

a catalyst can be a lightening strike, a stray cigarette, broken glass magnifying the sun, or a firebug with a cigarette lighter. more often than not its the latter.

there arent any groups like the KKK in oz that i am aware of. im sure there are white supremacists, but no group would want to claim responsibility for killing so many people.

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Tully Mars

I voted don't know because I don't have a clue.


So it's a known thing in the outback that some people start fire intentionally? Never heard of this. Is there any chance that any of these fires benefits large land owners? I know back when the Europeans first settled the area I'm originally from, the Willamette Valley in Oregon, they often used fire to clear large tracks of land to make farming easier. So could there be a benefit at all? Or are the options just basically bored people pissed out of their brains on beer and maniacs bent on destruction, life and property be damned?
-----Added 9/2/2009 at 02 : 42 : 20-----
Do you seriously think all law enforcement are simply looking for some poor sap to pin stuff on? Ever think they might actually want to find the person and or persons responsible?

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ASU2003

There is a lot of things that can cause fires. Even embers from burning trees can be blown hundreds of feet and light another fire someplace else.

spindles

this page:

Bushfires bill could top $2b

has a google map pinpointing the current fires in victoria. You can get pretty comprehensive coverage from the sydney morning herald website (from which this comes).

It is well documented that pyromaniacs start fires - who knows why, but what is ironic is they are often members of the volunteer bush fire brigades.

I can attest that it has been f$%^ing hot here this summer (and especially last week), though obviously worse in Victoria, but is actually significantly cooler this week.

This weeks fires are probably the worst since ash wednesday in 1983 (About Ash Wednesday - Country Fire Authority).

edit - nothing in the poll really matches my opinion - I'd say it is likely that some were deliberately lit, but not all, and I'd suggest it would be unlikely someone starting a fire would do it with the expectation that people would be killed (but who knows what drives some people).

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ryfo

Although I live in victoria, i live in the suburbs not the country A lot of these places are rural but they can be reached in a few hours and the kilmore fire is just up the hume highway. Firebugs do exist some are indeed members ofthe local fire authority, for some unknown reason they start the fires to fight the fires. 181 people so far are confirmed dead with whole areas still not checked due to fire risk still. It started on Saturday where the temp in Melb (not hotter rural areas) was 47 degrees C. We also are in drought so the combination is not good. Whole towns have been lost and many many people left homeless

genuinegirly

Thank you for the input, everyone. I've never heard of the firebugs Interesting that they're a commonly-known (and accepted?) group of people. I wonder how much of the ecosystem has been altered by these firebugs throughout the years.

__________________
"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

awalshe09

Yeah I saw that on CNN too. It seemed to me that the reporter from Melbourne said that a certain percent, can't remember exactly, of wildfires are started by human activity, but she didn't say that it was suspected. Maybe I'm wrong, this was yesterday morning and maybe more evidence has been found? It seems unthinkable that someone would really do such a thing intentionally. I hope not at least. I'll pray for the victims their losses have been great.
Peace
Alex

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spindles

Sadly, I expect the final death toll will be much much higher than this
-----Added 11/2/2009 at 05 : 41 : 27-----
One fire ruled as not arson:

Kinglake fire not arson, police | smh.com.au

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Zeraph

I'm not belittling their deaths or anything, but does anyone know how a fire can kill so many people? I mean, don't they see it coming? I can understand a few people, but you'd think a warning would go out in time after a few deaths.

highthief

Fires in those conditions move incredibly fast, and before you know it, you are surrounded. The amount of smoke makes you effectively blind and people die of smoke inhalation even in the outdoors.

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dc_dux

We can only hope for the best for our friends in Australia.

What was sad to see was what I thought was a uniquely American phenomenon of politicizing a natural (or man made and criminal) disaster.

Shades of Pat Robertson blaming Katrina on the hedonists in New Orleans or Jerry Falwell blaming 9/11 on gays/lesbians, secularists and the ACLU.

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spindles

This is a good way to destroy the reputation of 'normal' christians, isn't it? What a turkey!
-----Added 11/2/2009 at 05 : 56 : 23-----
Not only that - in summer time it is not uncommon to smell smoke, so that in itself is not an indication that a fire is close. At my place on Saturday you could smell smoke, but the fire was 50 odd kilometres away. Australia also has a lot of bush and the native Eucalyptus has quite a high oil content which is also explosive.

A lot of people also died in their cars after having accidents given the poor visibility.

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Hyacinthe

GG

Atleast some of those fires were lit. There are people currently serving jail time for it. The details are being kept quiet because there is so much anger towards firebugs here in Aus, the police are worried about vigilantes

There were actually a few people under suspicion and who have been sentenced, there was alot of debate about whether the charges should be arson, manslaughter or murder.

dksuddeth

people here in Australia realise that fire is a fact of life but over 30 fires in a selected area some of which were deliberately lit removes it from being a 'natural disaster' - honestly I find your comment quite offensive. You make it sound as though the deaths of over 200 people are a trivial fact. You might be interested in actually looking at some facts rather then almost mocking a horrific loss of life which involves personal grief for your fellow tfp members.

Tully Mars

Yes it's known that there are some sick people out there who light fires, people here in Australia are quite irate when it comes to that because the fires are generally lit in residential areas or in national parks backing onto them. The fires don't generally benefit land owners for those same reasons.

Zeraph

The reason that there were so many deaths is because here people have the right to stay in their homes and try to fight the fire and alot of people chose to do so. The police and other emergency services can tell them about the risk and make sure they are informed of the dangers but can't force them to leave. Those laws are currently being looked at after these fires.

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wayneferrell479

The problem I saw was that those a55holes kept lighting fires even as people were dying. Sick bastards should burn themselves.

Rainman_oz

Some probably arson - some not.