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Old 11-30-2009, 10:33 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Are we just too busy to actually discuss things anymore?

I just spent a week in Jerusalem. I lived within the confines of being Jewish for the better part of a week. While I did not pray every morning, it did mean that I ate Kosher meals and observed the Sabbath. I did not go into any Arab territory. The only time I prayed was at the Wailing Wall. The apartment we stayed in only allowed us to bring in Kosher food products. There was separate meat and dairy dishes and sinks. While there was no TV, there was wifi, but I did not bring a laptop.

I sat with our traveling friends, and we talked. We discussed, sometimes we discussed religion, other times we discussed politics. Even as we walked from place to place in Jerusalem or drove to the Dead Sea, we talked. I only turned on the radio when people fell asleep in the car.

And so I returned to this place, I haven't had much time to post these past few months. When I do, I'm not creating new threads, something that I used to do very regularly. Now, I'm responding to threads, and sometimes it's with the least amount of thought possible. I'm barely reading the OP and then barely reading the responses. For the most part, my response post is pretty much made up entirely of little substance for discussion. If you are actually reading the OP, take a moment and figure out how to fit the word or the concept of meat into your post or future replies. Don't make it too obvious since this is also part of the idea of being too busy. It will be an inside joke to those that include it. Sometimes we're just too busy to pay attention to the conversation. We're IMing. Reading email. Catching up on a blog. Watching Hulu in another window.

Take a moment and reflect on this before you post. Are you just responding to the question of the thread title? Or are you actually paying attention to what I've written here in the OP?
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Old 11-30-2009, 10:54 AM   #2 (permalink)
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This thread kind of reminds me of:



There are still discussions going on, but I don't think people are investing themselves very much into it since giving out one sentence answers is becoming the norm. Who has time for meaningful discussion when, as you said, you have 10 other tabs open and you're multitasking between all of them at the same time?
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Old 11-30-2009, 11:04 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I rarely spend the time to flesh out any of my comments. In the past, I became involved in longer, more in depth exchanges, but I found that when I did so, my day was consumed by the task.
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Old 11-30-2009, 11:41 AM   #4 (permalink)
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That trip must have been something else! I've always wanted to travel abroad and really get a deep experience of another culture.

As for the topic at hand I think our society is moving at such a fast pace these days that we've trained ourselves to get through every task as quickly as possible, sadly that also seems to extent to our interactions with others. I was at the deli the other day buying a bunch of breads, meats and cheeses and doing my usual "listen intently to others for my own amusement" hobby and it was amazing how often people cut one another off in mid sentence. I began to wonder if on top of our quick moving culture there isn't a bit of "me'ism" going on. "My thoughts and My opinions are more important then yours so shut up, listen and learn"

I don't know. Before I ramble on too much about the subject I'll just sum it up with our society no longer seems geared towards real human to human interaction. Too busy, too much technology, too many shiny distractions, not enough time to experience it all.
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Old 11-30-2009, 11:43 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I get the feeling you have to piss someone off to get some real discussion... either here at the TFP or in real life.

You have to have something personal invested in the conversation to make more than a superficial quip.

Nothing raises a ruckus like a naive college kid pushing some anti-government paranoia in a 300 level ethics class.

Or the TFP equiv on abortion, gun control, etc. Defacto circlejerk issues generate a ton of commentary.
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Old 11-30-2009, 12:08 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Things seem to swing back and forth here. I'm not usually in the deep philosophical threads, as I doubt I can change anyone else's minds. TFP seems to be in more of the "cake and frosting" rather than "steak and potatoes" mode at the moment. I don't mind the sugar rush. It may not stick with you, but the ride is fun.
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Old 11-30-2009, 12:16 PM   #7 (permalink)
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You're Jewish?
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Old 11-30-2009, 12:16 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I'm not sure. For me...sometimes it's a matter of whether I feel like contributing something or not to the discussion at hand at a given time. Sometimes I read an OP and mull over what's been said, meaning to come back to it and post, but that gets forgotten in the shuffle of other things. There are, quite frankly, some discussions on here that I would not touch with a ten foot pole, and there are also discussions that I have little to no desire to participate in, simply because I know that it will end up being a circle jerk. I don't see the point in joining a discussion where no progress is made on a given issue, or a discussion where the people/posters involved have so little flexibility of mind that they are unable or unwilling to see the other side of things.

Your trip to Israel sounds refreshing, cyn. I had a great weekend with some great discussions over the Thanksgiving holiday. It was nice to sit with my fiance's family over glasses of wine and talk about all that is going on in the world today and out future plans within it--the healthcare overhaul, support services for those dealing with poverty, New Zealand, increased food stamp usage, my SO's career prospects given the economic recovery, etc. We had a great time talking with one another. I think one of the things that helped these real life conversations was the fact that we were all focused on the conversation at hand; not a single person had a Blackberry or phone out to send texts or check emails.

Right now, the only tabs open in Opera are this thread and Tinychat. So there.
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Old 11-30-2009, 12:20 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wes Mantooth View Post
it was amazing how often people cut one another off in mid sentence. I began to wonder if on top of our quick moving culture there isn't a bit of "me'ism" going on. "My thoughts and My opinions are more important then yours so shut up, listen and learn"
I occasionally catch myself doing the above on TFP and in my day-to-day life. It's easy to do on a message board. Just skip to the end of the thread and comment. When it's day-to-day life, I'll think: "When are they going to stop talking so that I can say what I want to say." I feel offal when people do it to me. So, I correct myself when I can.
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Old 11-30-2009, 12:20 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I am a serial multi-tasker online, but if something peaks my interest I'll take the time to write out a proper reply.

The problem is, I think, internet culture in general. Rather than work through the real meat of an issue, people prefer to just skim the surface. It's not a medium that encourages investment. Just look at the most popular sites out there -- things like twitter and facebook get all the attention, because they're all about sound bytes. You can read hundreds of tiny messages per day, without having to invest any time or energy into any of them.

TFP, and discussion groups or fora in general, run counter to that. It's all about sitting down and really thinking about what you want to say and how you want to say it.

This is why I'm okay with being a small community. I see nothing wrong with shooting for quality over quantity in our userbase, and if all a potential member is going to contribute is "lol i agree" and "me 2" then I'm just fine with reading threads without having to scroll past that member's posts.

The other aspect is one of personal interest. You'll find a ton of posts from me in the technology forum, but almost none in economics. That's because my own preferences are such. I stick to the things I enjoy, and the most I could offer on the subjects I'm not educated in are the lite responses bemoaned above.

Overall, I could sum it up I think with 'such is the nature of things.'
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Old 11-30-2009, 12:33 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I agree Plan9 it seems that (especially in the real world) people often times need to have a vested interest in or deep passion for the topic otherwise they feel like they are just wasting valuable time.

While I can understand not wanting to engage in a lengthy discussion about a topic you know nothing about or find boring. It does seem however that once a discussions begins that often everyone involved listens as little as possible while spending most of their time getting others understand or accept their own point of view. To tie into the OP its just easier to get your idea or opinion out there then it is listening to others and engaging in a real exchange of ideas.
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Old 11-30-2009, 12:54 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willravel View Post
You're Jewish?
No, that's what made it more interesting. If you've paid attention to other threads I've authored, you'd recall that I'm Catholic and went to Catholic schools from 5th Grade to 1st year college.

I live in a Orthodox community so I have a little perspective in the workings, but I don't live it save for the occasional shabbos dinner and passover dinner. Having to find kosher restaurants that met the kosher specifications of the friends we traveled with was challenging.

BTW, Kosher turkey for thanksgiving, and Kosher McDonald's separates the meat from the dairy. It was rather funny watching someone ask why he couldn't get a McRoyal with cheese.
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Old 11-30-2009, 01:12 PM   #13 (permalink)
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[facepalm]

Will, I got the irony of your post. It was quite good and on topic.

Sometimes the short and simple is more effective than a long drawn-out diatribe. I can think of one member who's not around so much any more that was well known for taking threads about one thing in entirely new (and unappreciated) directions.

Then there are the times where people froth in the face of cold, hard facts to the contrary. And, yes, I'll admit that I'm occassionally one of THOSE. Generally speaking, we all are (we being humanity, not TFPers). I've seen well-reason posts discarded for sexier demotivator posts. It's when that becomes the norm that things miss a beat, at least in my head.

If you've read my blog recently, you know how I feel about part of this issue. I don't necessarily see this as a "TFP Problem" but I do see it as a "modern life" problem. In a world where tweets count as correspondence, it's becoming increasingly difficult to have thoughtful discussions. Even in my business life, correspondence is being edited down to essential facts.
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Old 11-30-2009, 01:17 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I didn't think that he was off topic, just making sure that he or anyone else remembers that I'm not Jewish.

Unless I'm missing the joke since it's now midnight in Israel and that's where my body clock is currently fading into were I'm not able to see the meat of the post.

and yes, modern life is why I posted this. I miss out on some personal items in emails because I'm looking just for the essential facts for actions.
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Old 11-30-2009, 01:23 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Dude. Go to bed. Seriously. Go get some sleep, then come back to see the irony of a 2 word response to a thread titled "Are we just too busy to actually discuss things anymore?"
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Old 11-30-2009, 01:47 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I actually expected some spam type answer like TLDR, too long did not read.

anyways, I'm heading home to go to bed.
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Old 11-30-2009, 02:21 PM   #17 (permalink)
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It was only a matter of time before something went off kilter.

Since it's a serious thread, it usually takes about 2-3 members to turn it into a battle of wits, taking the seriousness out of the thread making it something that belongs in Nonsense. I'm guilty of it too, but it gets annoying sometimes. Some don't know when to shut up and back off.

Answer: I know, I know... use the 'Report Post' feature.

But this time, it was only a sleepyhead.

p.s. - Will, I laughed .
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Old 11-30-2009, 03:30 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Jazz View Post
Dude. Go to bed. Seriously. Go get some sleep, then come back to see the irony of a 2 word response to a thread titled "Are we just too busy to actually discuss things anymore?"
I dunno, man... I'm getting tired of potentially great serious discussion threads getting absolutely slaughtered by the TFP equiv of a fart joke. Witty or not, said retorts derail the back-'n-forth. Dead thread. It's like a cat swatting at your balls during sex... something from which it is hard to recover.

I admit that I'm horribly guilty of this. This thread only illustrates the need for me to submit useful commentary instead of trite bacon one-liners.

Perhaps we have too many bluebloods wearing jester's hats in the court of Sir Halx the Tilted.
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Last edited by Plan9; 11-30-2009 at 03:53 PM..
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Old 11-30-2009, 03:44 PM   #19 (permalink)
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And it continues.
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Old 11-30-2009, 03:56 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Jazz View Post
Will, I got the irony of your post. It was quite good and on topic.
+10 points for The_Jazz

Yes, I remembered that you are a Christian of one denomination or another (I consider Catholic a denomination), Cynth. IIRC, you're agnostic? Cest la vi, for another topic.

I like to read the whole OP before responding, but I admit sometimes I do more skim it, especially when there's a long article (unless it's a topic that really catches me). It comes and goes in waves, though. TFP isn't really something you can do 8 hours a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year at full-concentration. It can get boring. I do the same thing when I've been reading too many books. Half way through Count of Monte Cristo, I found I was skimming, so I put it back on the shelf and I've not looked at it since. I'll probably start in again over Christmas, when I'm not sidetracked or feeling a little ADDish.
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Old 11-30-2009, 05:48 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post
I dunno, man... I'm getting tired of potentially great serious discussion threads getting absolutely slaughtered by the TFP equiv of a fart joke. Witty or not, said retorts derail the back-'n-forth. Dead thread. It's like a cat swatting at your balls during sex... something from which it is hard to recover.

I admit that I'm horribly guilty of this. This thread only illustrates the need for me to submit useful commentary instead of trite bacon one-liners.

Perhaps we have too many bluebloods wearing jester's hats in the court of Sir Halx the Tilted.
I've never been one to shy away from a good fart joke, as most of you already know. But sometimes those can be illuminating, particularly if they're coming at the issue from an unexpected direction. Ustwo, for all his other sins, was actually quite good at well-timed bon mots to drive the conversation.

Sometime trite is what's called for. Sometimes it's not. There are times where trite just gets swept under the rug and other times where trite defines the thread. When that happens, it had better be pretty fucking clever.

I dunno, perhaps the staff needs to set the bar higher for what qualifies for discussion. Then again, maybe that would neuter the board. Food for thought.
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Old 11-30-2009, 07:00 PM   #22 (permalink)
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There is discussion and then there is discussion. I like to think of this place as a pub. Sometimes the conversation is deep and engaging... other times it is awash in light hearted bon mots.

There is no magic formula. Any number of the following can lead a conversation down a particular path:

Personality
Timing
Quality of OP
Involvement of Cromp... Plan 9 in the thread
Mix of Membership (who is online at the time)
and so on...

Content is king but you can have great content and a thread can still fall flat if nobody wants to engage.

I'd suggest that volume is way more relevant.
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Old 11-30-2009, 07:50 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I enjoy good conversation. I enjoy reading well thought out, articulate, and thoughtful threads and responses. However, I'm not a good conversationalist, IRL or here. I'm more likely to listen and absorb what is being said, or read and absorb what has been written. I have difficulty expressing my thoughts via written word and in the past have found myself spending way too much time crafting my responses. I am finding that a thread (other than nonsense ones) really has to catch my attention now in order for me to respond; this is the longest post I've written in months.
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Old 11-30-2009, 11:53 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Well, this thread is about me ... Most of the time I DO, in fact, read the OP, except when you quote a big-ass article which goes on and on and on about the same thing ... then I either abandon the thread or guess what it's about and post my one liner.

I would engage a poster of whom I share different values/views with on a certain topic but I find myself so incredibly bland that I tend to ride a very neutral line in society. Being agreeable doesn't work well on a message board.
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Old 11-30-2009, 11:59 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlatan View Post
I'd suggest that volume is way more relevant.
A war of verbal attrition?
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Old 12-01-2009, 12:18 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post
A war of verbal attrition?
That and TYPING IN CAPS.
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Old 12-01-2009, 01:17 AM   #27 (permalink)
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It's a difficult thing to do. Since I did read the whole thread, I've got responses to most of the previous posts. Can I actually respond to them all without the appearance of a twitter joke? Perhaps it's my timing but the medium provided by forums is many inputs and opinions on one topic, not always in a linear order.

I don't see how everybody could suddenly be busier and feigning their conversation efforts to avoid dropping a unique discussion. Maybe people are adjusting to all these new things (multitasking between IM's, emails, hulu) aggressively, spending less time with more communications before learning to operate all of them together. I'm leaning towards that possibility because every generation thinks the youngins are different, and practice nonsensical methods of everything normal. I'm young but feel the same way about communications, which could be explained by the breadth and scale of changes in the Internet world.
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Old 12-01-2009, 07:47 AM   #28 (permalink)
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I'm an unemployed student taking computer courses after 30 years of working as a computer consultant. So you can imagine how easy it is and how bored I get.

I have gobs of time usually. More so on tuesdays this semester when I have no classes. The only task I have today is to cook a turkey we got on sale. It's not kosher, though. I put butter on it.

So I love to read on the internet. Usually I go to fark first and come over here when I get bored of that. It's interesting to see how many people post without reading the article and they even admit to it!

I like posting here when I think I have something to contribute. There is usually good discussion going on about something.
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Old 12-11-2009, 10:53 AM   #29 (permalink)
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The problem I see in getting to the meat of discussion is having new viewpoints, altering viewpoints, etc. At the TFP, often you already know someone's stance. Its always more exciting to learn about another, rather than rehash. Not necessarily better, just different.
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Old 12-11-2009, 11:32 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by girldetective View Post
At the TFP, often you already know someone's stance. Its always more exciting to learn about another, rather than rehash. Not necessarily better, just different.
I don't see all of us as static. The reason I spend the time I do at TFP is because I feel like it's bettered me as a thinker.
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Old 12-12-2009, 12:38 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Willravel View Post
You're Jewish?
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