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Old 03-25-2010, 10:54 PM   #41 (permalink)
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as a somewhat libertarian thinker, I say go for it- it would cripple the illegal trade, and benefit state revenues, and lessen the incredible overcrowding in the california prisons- some few people might be hurt by having ready easy access to the drug, but I doubt it, and in any event the benefits far outweigh any negatives- treat it like booze, and you will be fine.......
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Old 03-26-2010, 07:56 AM   #42 (permalink)
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I smoke pot. There, I said it.

First of all, there are WAY more pot smokers out there than you realize. For every person who admits to smoking, there are probably several smokers who "keep it a secret" because of public (or their job's) preception/legality.

Then there's California's current laws: medical marajuana is redilty available in legitimate, safe businesses. Yeah, you need a bullshit ID card that costs ~$100. All you have to do is tell them you have back pain, pay the money and you get the card. Since its inception, anyone can get it who wants it, or simply grab some from someone who does. No more shady back-alley deals where you get shanked, the weed is better and everyone is happy.

I really don't see how this won't pass. And like others, I'm 100% in favor of age limits, DUI laws and all that crap. It definately needs to be a "controlled" legal substance.
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Old 03-26-2010, 08:41 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by timalkin View Post
I'm against legalization. We don't need another substance that will allow people to slime around. We don't need more impaired drivers on the roads. We don't need to make it easier for kids to do poorly in school.
This sounds like a campaign to outlaw texting or television. Hey, maybe we should throw people that text message in prison. It's not like they're so overcrowded that we're actually letting prisoners go.
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Old 03-26-2010, 09:13 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Willravel View Post
This sounds like a campaign to outlaw texting or television. Hey, maybe we should throw people that text message in prison. It's not like they're so overcrowded that we're actually letting prisoners go.
I recently saw figures stating that state prisons are overcapacity by 1 to 16% and federal prisons are overcapacity by over 30%. Approximately a quarter of all prisoners in both jurisdictions are drug offenders. Now, I don't know how many are in there for marijuana-related offenses, but I can only assume it's a sizable population.
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Old 03-26-2010, 09:53 AM   #45 (permalink)
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"Marijuana does cause motor impairment but it also makes people very cautious. A marijuana smoker is much less likely to drive than someone under the influence of alcohol or a cell phone."

I strongly disagree. Pot does not increase your common sense. It does decrease your peripheral vision. It does decrease reaction time. It will not help you to keep your mind on the road if you are not so inclined.

I believe my life was once saved because the driver was the only one in the van who was not high. His action required good side vision and fast reaction to an event.I will never forget that fact.
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Old 03-26-2010, 10:38 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by flat5 View Post
"Marijuana does cause motor impairment but it also makes people very cautious. A marijuana smoker is much less likely to drive than someone under the influence of alcohol or a cell phone."

I strongly disagree. Pot does not increase your common sense. It does decrease your peripheral vision. It does decrease reaction time. It will not help you to keep your mind on the road if you are not so inclined.

I believe my life was once saved because the driver was the only one in the van who was not high. His action required good side vision and fast reaction to an event.I will never forget that fact.
I think you may have misread what he wrote. It doesn't really have anything to do with "common sense". Essentially, a smoker is less likely to drive because of paranoia, as in he/she is afraid of something like being pulled over or possibly a fender bender. So, yes, motor abilities are impaired, but it would not likely matter since that person is less inclined to even want to drive.

Quote:
That is very true fly and I agree with that. My main problem with it is, when does it become an "illness" like alcoholism has become? When do we start having people on disability (I know you can't get it because of drinking, but I personally know people on it because of drinking health problems they lied about) because they have smoked so much weed that they "Can't help it, I *can't* stop if I wanted too" crap we hear from heavy drinkers/smokers. When does it become another excuse for people to do nothing with their lives because of this now legal drug.
Marijuana is not physically addictive. So, it's unlikely to become an "illness".

Quote:
Surprised at the amount of pot users here. Huh. To me, pot users have always been stupid and lazy. I've never been proved wrong as of yet, I've never met a user I liked as a person. Not saying any of you on TFP are, I'm just saying I've never met anyone who doesn't exhibit bad qualities.
I am neither stupid nor lazy. I only got a little bit into smoking because of my ex-girlfriend. She is also neither stupid nor lazy. Both of us actually hate being called those with a passion. And, we both make absolute sure we are being productive or we have something planned for when we do. The reason why we do it? It makes things more enjoyable/tolerable.

And, yes, I am for the legalization of marijuana. It would be a great source of tax revenue.
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Old 03-26-2010, 10:49 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ironpham View Post
I think you may have misread what he wrote. It doesn't really have anything to do with "common sense". Essentially, a smoker is less likely to drive because of paranoia, as in he/she is afraid of something like being pulled over or possibly a fender bender. So, yes, motor abilities are impaired, but it would not likely matter since that person is less inclined to even want to drive.

.
Ever heard of a "high ride"?

I used to smoke all day everyday in my very early twenties. I was lazy and quite unproductive. I decided to move to a new town and start a new life. I completely quit smoking for about 3 years, then decided I was able to handle it again and now smoke about once every six months or so.

I do think it should legalized.
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Old 03-26-2010, 12:04 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Just a couple hours ago I was contacted by a guy at a company in California who needs a special device we make to incorporate into their new product, some kind of self-contained pot smoking device. I specifically asked if this potential legalization is their motivation and he said for sure, they're gearing up with the necessary hardware.

I'm for legalization and taxation, and also for strict mandatory penalties for driving under the influence of any intoxicating substances (alky, pot, etc) as well as other limitations on operating machinery and other similar safety concerns.
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Old 03-26-2010, 12:07 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Wow, this thread makes me a conservative dinosaur.
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Old 03-26-2010, 12:18 PM   #50 (permalink)
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I don't know, I always thought the "lazy and stupid" pot smoker was just a negative stereotype and judging from my own personal experiences it depends more on the type of person doing it then the effect of the drug itself.

What really bothers me the most about pot being illegal is that I have yet to hear a truly viable reason why it should be. Most of the myths touted as to why have been debunked over the years (gateway drug, addictive, ect) and the reasons left behind simply aren't good enough in my opinion. Certainly not good enough to justify the amount of time and money wasted on arresting, prosecuting and jailing smokers/growers and It certainly doesn't justify the revenue lost in taxes and sales that could be benefiting our country and helping states that need the revenue. Is their anybody out there that would argue that marijuana is worse for a persons health then cigarettes? Alcohol? Fast food? Some of the legal drugs doctors prescribe everyday? Its time for us as a nation to reevaluate our views on marijuana, we have more important things to worry about then "stoners".
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Old 03-26-2010, 01:09 PM   #51 (permalink)
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I wish we could let people who could handle weed (or pills/booze for that matter) have access to it and keep those away that are just going to use it as an excuse to be shitty people all around. I know we can't do that, I just wish we could.
Some people are going to use pot as an excuse regardless of whether or not it's legal. Some will use alcohol, some will use drugs, some will cry about how daddy didn't love them. Pot isn't the problem here, but rather just the catalyst -- and if it's not marijuana it'll be something else. That's just how some people are, and if you set out to criminalize everything they might use as an excuse you're just going to end up criminalizing everything.

I don't smoke pot, but I do wish our own government would stop pussyfooting around with this decriminalization nonsense and just lift the ban already. Sadly, with the Tories in power it's not likely to happen any time soon.

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Wow, this thread makes me a conservative dinosaur.
Don't feel bad, niner. You're just a product of your 'drugs are bad' upbringing. Those of us with hippie (or indifferent) parents don't have the cognitive dissonance factor of trying to reconcile the facts with what all of the People With Authority told us as little kiddies.
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Old 03-26-2010, 04:12 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Old 03-26-2010, 04:17 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Dude, they're already selling it to children.
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Old 03-26-2010, 04:56 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by timalkin View Post
Marijuana legalization will shrink the illegal drug market. Right now, the market is big enough for the cartels to operate in a more or less civil manner because the pie is big enough for everyone to get a piece. By shrinking the pie, the cartels are going to have to fight each other a lot more to assert dominance and control over the remaining pie. These cartels aren't simply going to disappear just because marijuana is legalized. They are going to escalate their fighting and modify their operations to keep the profits flowing.

If marijuana is legalized, it will be more widely available than it currently is. The dealers aren't going to simply look for legitimate jobs, but instead will target those groups who aren't able to purchase the newly-legalized drugs: children. Dealers will either buy the legalized marijuana from legal sources and sell it to children at a higher price, or grow/smuggle their own and sell it to children at a higher profit.
Actually, if history is any guide, the cartels and dealers will simply look for other illegal goods or activities to pursue which are more profitable. That is what organized crime in the US did following the repeal of prohibition. The mafia is still around, of course, but they are not, for the most part, either smuggling alcohol or doing much business selling it to minors.

There will always be illegal goods and activities to catch the interest of criminals. However, especially considering that the marijuana which comes from Mexico and Central America is of dramatically poorer quality than that grown in California, it seems extremely unlikely to me that once marijuana is legal in this state, people will continue to purchase illegal Mexican weed.

Even when it comes to minors, think about it: if you were a high school kid, and you had the choice between getting a dime bag of cheap brown schwag from a sketchy dealer, or finding someone with an amenable older brother or friend (there's always at least one), who for the same price or cheaper could get you the stickiest, highest-quality herb in the Western Hemisphere...which would you do? To suppose that they'll go for the illegal stuff from the dealer is like saying a minor would rather shell out $25 for a case of Keystone Light Beer or a couple bottles of Boones Hill Strawberry Wine, instead of $20 for their choice of Samuel Adams Summer Ale, top shelf whiskey, or top shelf brandy. No minors I ever hung out with when I was underage would have done so.

Will drug cartels vanish with the legalization of marijuana? Of course not. But the likelihood is that they will not fight uselessly over a dead market, they will simply move on to more profitable fields.
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Old 03-26-2010, 07:39 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by timalkin View Post
Marijuana legalization will shrink the illegal drug market. Right now, the market is big enough for the cartels to operate in a more or less civil manner because the pie is big enough for everyone to get a piece. By shrinking the pie, the cartels are going to have to fight each other a lot more to assert dominance and control over the remaining pie. These cartels aren't simply going to disappear just because marijuana is legalized. They are going to escalate their fighting and modify their operations to keep the profits flowing.

If marijuana is legalized, it will be more widely available than it currently is. The dealers aren't going to simply look for legitimate jobs, but instead will target those groups who aren't able to purchase the newly-legalized drugs: children. Dealers will either buy the legalized marijuana from legal sources and sell it to children at a higher price, or grow/smuggle their own and sell it to children at a higher profit.
Yeah that's what happened when they made booze legal. Bootleggers just got way worse. Violence went through the... oh, wait that wasn't the effect at all. Never mind.
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Old 03-27-2010, 01:06 AM   #56 (permalink)
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I don't know, in my experience pot is pretty readily available to children right now, I don't think I've ever heard of a dealer who wants ID before a purchase or really cares one bit about how old a customer is. If a child knows how to get it, they can get it. Really would there even be a large enough market of pot smoking 5th graders to keep the illegal drug trade wealthy and competing with corporations for a piece of the pie?

Once pot winds up in stores produced by wealthy companies who can grow a damn good plant the street value of "illegal weed" will become pretty much worthless. Very similar to tobacco and alcohol...both could be sold on the black market but the demand for bootlegged hooch and smokes simply doesn't exist, its too easy to purchase legally at a fair price and of good quality. There is NO way anybody working the black market would ever try to compete with that, they'd simply turn their attention to and up the production of other illegal drugs.

Honestly the last thing I would worry about if marijuana is legalized is how the black market would react. If it does become a problem we can always toss some of the billions of dollars we waste fighting pot to stamp out the new child selling pot pushers.
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Old 03-27-2010, 08:38 AM   #57 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by timalkin View Post
Marijuana legalization will shrink the illegal drug market. Right now, the market is big enough for the cartels to operate in a more or less civil manner because the pie is big enough for everyone to get a piece.
Ummm, ever watch the news? If you have you'd know they are already fighting and guess what? Pot isn't even leagal yet, so throw that theory of yours out the window.
Mexican Drug War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
or connected to that
2009 Vancouver gang war - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Quote:
If marijuana is legalized, it will be more widely available than it currently is. The dealers aren't going to simply look for legitimate jobs, but instead will target those groups who aren't able to purchase the newly-legalized drugs: children. Dealers will either buy the legalized marijuana from legal sources and sell it to children at a higher price, or grow/smuggle their own and sell it to children at a higher profit.
Umm again, this is already going on, I mean you're trying to blame legalizing weed for things that are already going and have been for years.
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Old 03-27-2010, 11:11 AM   #58 (permalink)
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How many children actually buy weed anyways? And, what age group are you talking about specifically? I mean, really, how often have you even heard of someone under the age of 15 or 16 smoking pot? I'm sure the demand of weed for that age group and younger is pretty low and not really worth any drug syndicate's time.

Honestly, I've still yet to see a valid argument for marijuana being illegal. As long as there are restrictions on operations of heavy machinery and age, I can't see a reason why it should not be legalized.
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Old 03-27-2010, 12:37 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Hooray for California!! Me and my friends all live in Ohio. Here's a snippet of their situation:

Three friends I know who have cancer and are sick & tired of finding dealers on the street to help them score pot. They have advanced stages and it illeviates the pain and the depression (and helps them have a little appetite, which gives them strength to eat and keep food down) and they feel that the pot treatment is a lot better than the Rxs that the Doctors give them which cost 4 times - at least- more then those prescribed by the big drug companies who own the USA and upset their stomachs and cause serious "side effects"....

Some of them aren't covered by ANY insurance due to that so-called "pre-existing condition" called cancer.
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Old 03-28-2010, 07:22 AM   #60 (permalink)
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if weed is legalized a whole lot of weed dealers are gonna have to get real jobs and pay real taxes.
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Old 03-28-2010, 01:19 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ironpham View Post
How many children actually buy weed anyways? And, what age group are you talking about specifically? I mean, really, how often have you even heard of someone under the age of 15 or 16 smoking pot? I'm sure the demand of weed for that age group and younger is pretty low and not really worth any drug syndicate's time.

Honestly, I've still yet to see a valid argument for marijuana being illegal. As long as there are restrictions on operations of heavy machinery and age, I can't see a reason why it should not be legalized.
I've been asking the same question for years, what is the valid argument for making it illegal in the first place? As far as I can tell there is absolutely no compelling reason what so ever that justifies such a disproportional response to such a mundane issue and I'm really at a point where I just want to hear any rational, sound argument in favor of keeping it illegal...but they never seem to materialize.
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Old 03-28-2010, 03:16 PM   #62 (permalink)
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just wow. reading over 60 posts of this topic and all i can say is 'the stupid, it burns'.

think people, really think about what it is you're 'hoping' the government in california is going to 'let' you do?
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Old 03-28-2010, 03:18 PM   #63 (permalink)
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just wow. reading over 60 posts of this topic and all i can say is 'the stupid, it burns'.

think people, really thing about what it is you're 'hoping' the government in california is going to 'let' you do?
You just simplified a hundred plus years of research and public opinion and law to the government being a big jerkface. Nice.
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Old 03-29-2010, 04:53 PM   #64 (permalink)
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think people, really think about what it is you're 'hoping' the government in california is going to 'let' you do?
It's the same freedom from 'big government/police state' that the Tea Party is all up in arms about.

And I have never smoked it, but I was lazy and unmotivated for a few years when I was in my early 20s. I probably should have experimented with my friends once or twice.
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Old 03-30-2010, 06:57 AM   #65 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dksuddeth View Post
just wow. reading over 60 posts of this topic and all i can say is 'the stupid, it burns'.

think people, really think about what it is you're 'hoping' the government in california is going to 'let' you do?
Wait, you are expecting a bunch of stoners to lead an armed uprising against the State? That should be good for a laugh.
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Old 03-30-2010, 07:01 AM   #66 (permalink)
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Okay, okay, now you can legalize marijuana.
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Old 03-30-2010, 07:07 AM   #67 (permalink)
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It strikes me that we have an opportunity to work on the kind of dehumanizing prejudicial attitudes that can spread when diverse individuals are grouped together based on one of their behaviors. For example, it's not really sensible to call a totally diverse group of humans who happen to imbibe an occsasional alcoholic beverage, "a bunch of drinkers," is it? So much of our humanity and dignity is lost when we do that kind of thing. Don't you agree?
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Old 03-30-2010, 07:30 AM   #68 (permalink)
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It's the same freedom from 'big government/police state' that the Tea Party is all up in arms about.
no it's not. you're 'asking' the government for 'permission' to grow, buy, and sell marijuana. A naturally occurring plant. Why do you let them have that kind of power?

---------- Post added at 10:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:29 AM ----------

Quote:
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Wait, you are expecting a bunch of stoners to lead an armed uprising against the State? That should be good for a laugh.
where did I say that?
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Old 03-30-2010, 11:53 AM   #69 (permalink)
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[QUOTE=dksuddeth;2773222]no it's not. you're 'asking' the government for 'permission' to grow, buy, and sell marijuana. A naturally occurring plant. Why do you let them have that kind of power?[COLOR="DarkSlateGray"]
QUOTE]

Because the govt has the power to pass laws and enforce them and you either except that, work to change the law...or what? Start a revolution? A vote in California is a great place to start changing marijuana laws in this country, if you agree that those laws need to be overturned or changed what other avenue would suggest people taking?

Simply ignoring the govt's power is what people are doing now and its resulted in a black hole of spending and otherwise law abiding citizens being prosecuted and doing jail time. How is that better then working to change the laws?
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Old 03-30-2010, 06:39 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Because the govt has the power to pass laws and enforce them and you either except that, work to change the law...or what? Start a revolution?
if the government passes a law that's blatantly a violation of their powers, what are you going to do?
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Old 03-30-2010, 06:53 PM   #71 (permalink)
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if the government passes a law that's blatantly a violation of their powers, what are you going to do?
Why get the guns of course.....
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Old 03-30-2010, 07:01 PM   #72 (permalink)
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Marginalizing it because of it's source doesn't work. Just because it's something that you can grow in your own home doesn't necessarily make it a more reasonable argument to legalize it.

If nukes grew on trees, ya know?

everything comes from the earth. the car you drive, the food you eat, the clothes you wear.

it's just a matter of how much it's been processed and mix with other components, heat, etc.

On can help you, one can kill you. It is of the interest of the government to protect it's people. Not just from a "if you're alive, we can tax you" standpoint, but from a morally positive standpoint.

Protecting families by trying to keep things out of the hands of children so that their parents don't have to suffer the grief of losing a child to somethind dangerous needlessly.

Granted, for some reason MJ fell in to this category, but legalizing it because it's a plant = not an argument. legalizing it because it's economically sound, and scientifically proven to be safe = an argument.

I mean by your logic we should legalize heroin.
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Old 03-30-2010, 07:36 PM   #73 (permalink)
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It strikes me that we have an opportunity to work on the kind of dehumanizing prejudicial attitudes that can spread when diverse individuals are grouped together based on one of their behaviors. For example, it's not really sensible to call a totally diverse group of humans who happen to imbibe an occsasional alcoholic beverage, "a bunch of drinkers," is it? So much of our humanity and dignity is lost when we do that kind of thing. Don't you agree?
Hear, hear.
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Old 03-30-2010, 07:57 PM   #74 (permalink)
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no it's not. you're 'asking' the government for 'permission' to grow, buy, and sell marijuana. A naturally occurring plant. Why do you let them have that kind of power?[COLOR="DarkSlateGray"]
I see it as the voters are telling to government that they shouldn't have the power to fine or jail people for growing, buying, or using marijuana. the government expanded and used their powers to regulate drugs laws to enforce marijuana prosecutions. Now the people want to remove this from the law books.
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Old 03-30-2010, 11:30 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dksuddeth View Post
if the government passes a law that's blatantly a violation of their powers, what are you going to do?
You either accept that the govt is violating its powers, pursue legal means to change the law (voting, court system, ect) or take up arms and fight. What other options would we have?

In the case of marijuana we accept that state and federal govt have outlawed it. I would imagine the VAST majority of people don't view marijuana as an issue that warrants taking up arms over so they are doing the sane and reasonable thing, working to change the law through the system we have in place.

Are you of the opinion that because marijuana is a naturally growing plant that the govt has no reason/right to outlaw it? If so, what other avenue would you suggest people take to change that?
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