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Old 05-12-2010, 08:08 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Screaming Chefs: What Would You Do?

This popped up on Diner's Journal yesterday:

Why I Got Kicked Out of a Restaurant on Saturday Night - Diner's Journal Blog - NYTimes.com
Quote:
Why I Got Kicked Out of a Restaurant on Saturday Night
By RON LIEBER

On Saturday night, for the first time in my life, I was kicked out of a restaurant — Restaurant Marc Forgione in TriBeCa.

It’s a good restaurant, with a great cocktail and a clever bread operation.

But that’s as far as I got into the meal. About ten minutes after my party of four sat down, we heard yelling — loud, sustained, top-of-lungs yelling — coming from the kitchen. Mr. Forgione was dressing down a member of the staff, in full view of many of the customers. The dining room quieted as patrons exchanged uncomfortable glances.

No one said a thing though. Soon the target of the chef’s harsh words delivered our amuse-bouche, and the poor guy was so rattled he could barely speak above a mumble.

A few minutes later, the chef was at it again. Fifteen seconds. Another fifteen. And without much forethought, I pushed back my chair and walked through the open doorway of the kitchen.   click to show 
And on HuffPost:
Chef Marc Forgione Explains Kicking A Times Writer Out Of His Restaurant
Quote:
Earlier today on Diner's Journal, Times financial writer Ron Lieber complained about Marc Forgione's kitchen and dining-room manner, and now the restaurateur shares his thoughts with Grub Street.   click to show 
I wanted to get a TFP take on this. Personally, if I'm spending a lot of money on a meal, I don't want to hear a chef screaming and yelling at his staff, even if it is somehow justified. It just ruins the experience of fine dining. This is, of course, my perspective as a customer. I kind of admire Ron Lieber for taking this on. I'm not sure he went about it the right way, as I do think there are other, more diplomatic ways to let your displeasure be known. This applies to the chef too--screaming at someone is a highly ineffective way of communicating, despite what Gordon Ramsay and his ilk may think.

How about you? Did Mr. Lieber do the right thing, or was he overreacting? Would you, as a restaurant patron, sit through your meal while a chef chewed out his kitchen staff so loudly the whole restaurant could hear? Or would you do something about it?
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Old 05-12-2010, 09:04 AM   #2 (permalink)
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It's a chef's (and a restaurateur's) right to say what he/she wants in the tone of voice that he/she feels like is needed to his kitchen workers making his food (without straight up insulting someone/physically hurting them). I've seen it before and been on the receiving end of a pissed off chef's rage. It's part of the job. If you are fucking up on the job, then prepare to receive your lashing, but it should be said this is for when you fuck up (or have been doing nothing but fucking up). Some chefs are soft-spoken, using looks and the "parent's disappointment" to convey anger. Some chefs are yellers and pan throwers, it's all in how it works for them.

I've been told "I'm not sticking up for you anymore, you are on your own" for when I fucked up under a soft-spoken chef. On the other hand, I've been cussed in French, Swedish, and (his personal favorite) German by a chef I worked with (who was cooking before my dad was an urge in his daddy's pants). Granted a lot of yelling was just pure frustration, but it's how kitchens work (in my experience).

That said, yelling should go on behind closed doors and even better, in the walkin (you can yell and scream in there to your heart's content, no one will hear you). As much as I like watching a waitron get dressed down by a chef, no one but the employees should see that. He was not wrong for yelling, he was wrong for letting the customers hear it.

The customer should have handled it differently, should have went to the Maître d' (or front end manager) and told them about it. They would relay it to the chef and went from there. Going into someone's kitchen (especially a chef's) is a big no no (unless invited by the chef himself). You don't go in there and tell him how to run his restaurant.

[Also, to add to the above, when I say Chef or restaurateur, I mean a CHEF. Not a waffle house kitchen manager, I mean someone who has been in a kitchen for more years than they care to count. Someone who has worked their ass off to become who they are and what they cook. The manager at the local Applebee's doesn't count.]

Both ends of this disagreement was handled wrong, the chef dressing someone down within ear-shot of the customer and the way the customer handled the yelling.
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Old 05-12-2010, 09:06 AM   #3 (permalink)
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From the standpoint of a customer, Mr. Lieber did the exactly correct thing. Part of paying for fine dining is paying for atmosphere and ambiance; neither of which is enhanced by some power-mad adolescent with a big hat shouting at someone. Unless the shoutee had just committed the kind of error which could result in burning the restaurant down or something similarly destructive, there was simply no place for that kind of unprofessional behavior on the part of the Chef, and Mr. Lieber was entirely correct to complain. That kind of dressing-down should be reserved for a place and time when/where other workers, and ESPECIALLY customers, will not hear/see it.

Was he right to barge into the kitchen as he did? Probably not. I've worked in resteraunts before, and the kitchen is not only a very dangerous place where an unexpected impediment (like an irate customer) can be a genuine hazard, it's also a kind of (as the chef puts it) "sacred space," especially for a high-end establishment where industrial espionage, recipie-theft, and the like are genuine risks.

However, the Chefs shouting fit and his reaction to a customer complaint seem totally unwarranted. Having had to deal with high-end chefs before, however, they are sadly also totally predictable.
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Old 05-12-2010, 09:23 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Fuck anybody who thinks they need to yell and berate to get a job done correctly. Every customer should walk out when they hear this shit.

And yes, the chef does have the "right" to yell at his workers, but he doesn't have the "right" to expect everyone to put up with his tyrannical rants, be it workers, or especially customers.
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Old 05-12-2010, 09:28 AM   #5 (permalink)
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"Artistic sensibilities". That's going to be the defense of prima donna behavior. And I'm not buying it. It's in another sphere, but has the same root cause, as a well-respected and talented director having sex with a thirteen year old girl and expecting to be given a free pass due to his contributions to his craft.

Art is great. It's a defining characteristic of humanity, one that separates us evolutionarily apart from our animal kingdom origins more definitively than language or the use of tools. Ironically, too many "artists" use "artistic sensibilities" as an excuse for the most oafish and base behavior, and then expect all to be forgiven in deference to their "genius".

A douchebag is a douchebag, and I have no interest in perpetuating douchebaggery. I'd rather go to McDonald's than support an asshole's restaurant. While Lieber had the right idea, he was wasting his time; Forgione will insist that the way he runs his kitchen and treats his staff is all part of his "method". Until more people with the clout to affect public opinion, like Lieber, take a stand that not everything is forgiven in the pursuit of artistic endeavors, then prima donnas like Forgione will continue to flourish.
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Old 05-12-2010, 09:55 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I understand that the dining industry has different standards for communication than the rest of the professional world, but there is a time and a place for it. It would never be acceptable for someone to start yelling at a subordinate in an office setting (at least nowhere that I've worked)

If a chef wants to yell at his employees it is his right but he should have a kitchen that is closed off enough so that it doesn't disturb the diners. If it is a disruption, then the customer is within his right to let him know that it is unacceptable. He shouldn't go in the kitchen, he should ask his server to bring the chef to his table.
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Old 05-12-2010, 10:11 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iliftrocks View Post
Fuck anybody who thinks they need to yell and berate to get a job done correctly. Every customer should walk out when they hear this shit.

And yes, the chef does have the "right" to yell at his workers, but he doesn't have the "right" to expect everyone to put up with his tyrannical rants, be it workers, or especially customers.
QFT.

I don't care what the chef's excuse is. I'm there to enjoy my meal, which means not listening to him yelling.
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Old 05-12-2010, 11:12 AM   #8 (permalink)
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I'm mostly repeating what others have aready said, but...

I think the chef was well within his rights to yell at someone who is not doing their job, but he should do so in a way that does not disturb the diners. Pretty obvious, but I'm sure that's easier said than done. I don't know, take him out back or something.

Forgive my ignorance, but a quick Google search yeilded no significant results on who Ron Lieber is, so I'll assume he's a random blogger. If he's just a random patron, I don't think he has the right to barge into a kitchen and start complaining to the chef. He should have asked for the manager then demanded to speak with the chef. I agree that a kitchen is pretty hallowed ground, especially to a head chef. If he's already in a bad mood, barging in is just going to piss him off more.

Either way, both chef and diner acted poorly. Yelling within earshot and barging into a kitchen are both fouls in my book.
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Old 05-12-2010, 11:33 AM   #9 (permalink)
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GET THE FUCK OUTTA MY KITCHEN!!!


If I have some douchebag lazy server that repeatedly fucks up his job, I'm gonna yell at him. I'll be nice the first few times but if he/she is a fucking moron and can't understand... you will get yelled at. Then I will yell at the manager for hire said fucktard.

And Jesus Fucking Christ... if a customer came into my kitchen to complain about how I run my business... they'll be lucky to just get kicked out. I'm most likely gonna stab you. Cause I know you don't want me to show up at your place of work and tell you how to do your job... that would be rude of me.
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Old 05-12-2010, 11:33 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Lieber had entirely the correct feelings and motivations. It was his handling that he fucked up. The appropriate response would have been for he and his friends to pick up, walk out, and on their way out, inform the Maitre d' that they were aghast that the chef should treat anyone that way, especially in front of others; and that not only did it ruin their dining experience, but they simply refused to eat in the establishment of someone who would treat another human being like that...and that furthermore, one of their party was a newspaper blogger, and this incident would be appearing in the press.

I have worked in a lot of restaurants, and the best chefs I ever worked under never, ever needed to yell and scream and berate their employees. A quiet, dignified manner and utterly no-nonsense professionalism stood them in perfect stead. Every place I ever worked where the chef was a ranter and a screamer, I quit: it wasn't worth my time.

Chef in question here? Loser. Lieber? Well-meaning bumbler.
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Old 05-12-2010, 11:49 AM   #11 (permalink)
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1.) Film it with a cellphone camera
2.) Post it online
3.) ...
4) Profit!

But yeah, he should have gone to the Maitre 'D. He could have gotten a free Dessert instead of a kick out the door.
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Old 05-12-2010, 12:37 PM   #12 (permalink)
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A lot of the argument I hear seems to consist of "It's okay to beat the slave; it's my fucking pyramid."

No.

Just. Fucking. NO.
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Old 05-12-2010, 12:51 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FuglyStick View Post
A lot of the argument I hear seems to consist of "It's okay to beat the slave; it's my fucking pyramid."

No.

Just. Fucking. NO.
They are not a slave if they can leave. You can do like levite did and go somewhere else. I've done it before with chefs I didn't like, so can others. My chef mentor was a yeller at times, but if you didn't fuck up, you didn't hear it. So, don't fuck up.
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Old 05-12-2010, 01:01 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by LordEden View Post
They are not a slave if they can leave. You can do like levite did and go somewhere else. I've done it before with chefs I didn't like, so can others. My chef mentor was a yeller at times, but if you didn't fuck up, you didn't hear it. So, don't fuck up.
But here's the thing, Eden--it's still unacceptable. Why chefs and a few other professions are cut so much slack on ridiculous behavior is beyond me; try that on a factory line, or in a school, or in the fucking military for christ's sake, and see how fast you are called out for it. Being a chef is not a license to be a dick.

But you know what, I don't like dealing with prima donnas anyway; I ain't the one to kowtow to some douche's ego. So, I guess it's a good thing I never pursued a career in the culinary arts. If kowtowing to a douche is the only way to get ahead in the kitchen, God help the miserable souls who do it to pay the bills.
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Old 05-12-2010, 01:09 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Personally I think more yelling goes a long way. too many touchy feely, might hurt their feelings... kumbayayas in the world these days.

I don't need to stand for it when I'm a diner, but if I fucked something up fierce, I expect to be dressed down in some fashion.
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Old 05-12-2010, 01:13 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Cynthetiq View Post
Personally I think more yelling goes a long way. too many touchy feely, might hurt their feelings... kumbayayas in the world these days.

I don't need to stand for it when I'm a diner, but if I fucked something up fierce, I expect to be dressed down in some fashion.
And that might be appropriate if a mistake means blowing up a building, not when it means putting the salad fork in the wrong place.

I guess I'm not spineless enough to get ahead in today's world. Fuck it, I don't want to get ahead that bad.
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Old 05-12-2010, 01:22 PM   #17 (permalink)
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It's fairly easy to tell who here has worked for a chef and who hasn't, I think...

The restaurant business is a very stressful business. I've never seen a higher level of tension than that of a dinner rush in a high end kitchen. Fact is, chef's are by and large huge assholes. I heard mention of Chef Ramsay from Hell's Kitchen somewhere in this thread. That dude doesn't have shit on some of the chefs I've worked for.

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Originally Posted by LordEden View Post
Some chefs are pan throwers
Perhaps some of you thought he was exaggerating that bit. He's not. I've had knives thrown at me. It's high tension, fast paced, and temperaments run rampant. But, I digress...

This is simple. Even though the chef shouldn't have been yelling within earshot of the customers, the customer should not have entered his kitchen. If you have a problem with a restaurant, just leave. Don't tell the owner how to run his shit.

---------- Post added at 03:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:14 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by FuglyStick View Post
But here's the thing, Eden--it's still unacceptable. Why chefs and a few other professions are cut so much slack on ridiculous behavior is beyond me; try that on a factory line, or in a school, or in the fucking military for christ's sake, and see how fast you are called out for it. Being a chef is not a license to be a dick.
I've said it a million times before; very few situations bring out the temperamental, unacceptable, and ridiculous behavior we're more accustomed to seeing out of children, but a busy kitchen is one of those places.

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Originally Posted by FuglyStick View Post
If kowtowing to a douche is the only way to get ahead in the kitchen, God help the miserable souls who do it to pay the bills.
I've never met anybody who works under a chef in a high end restaurant just to pay the bills. If you're only in it to pay the bills, you won't last.

I didn't put up with the yelling, berating, pan/knife throwing, or the temper tantrums to make a few bucks. I put up with it because at the end of the day I was satisfied with myself. I felt as though I'd gone into a jungle and come out with a new tiger fur.

A feeling of accomplishment is worth a lot more than a paycheck.
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Old 05-12-2010, 01:23 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FuglyStick View Post
But here's the thing, Eden--it's still unacceptable. Why chefs and a few other professions are cut so much slack on ridiculous behavior is beyond me; try that on a factory line, or in a school, or in the fucking military for christ's sake, and see how fast you are called out for it. Being a chef is not a license to be a dick.

But you know what, I don't like dealing with prima donnas anyway; I ain't the one to kowtow to some douche's ego. So, I guess it's a good thing I never pursued a career in the culinary arts. If kowtowing to a douche is the only way to get ahead in the kitchen, God help the miserable souls who do it to pay the bills.
Interesting... You don't get yelled at in the military if you fuck up?



Not all chefs yell or are mean. I've worked with very nice calm chefs. And what most people don't understand, mainly because they've never worked in the service industry and don't know how it works, is that we yell because it's loud in the kitchen. Now, I've always worked in kitchen that were completely silent. It was very odd mind you.

My point is this... if I call for that mid-rare filet four times and you still don't have it for me, I will yell at you. If I call for runners cause food is dying in the window and the service staff stands around ignoring me talking about who fucked who last night in the parking lot, I will yell at you. Get off your ass and do your job. It's my kitchen and my food, you're here to serve it to the people that came here to eat it. If you fuck that up, I will yell at you. Yes, chefs have a pass when it comes to treating employees like worthless piles of shit and 75% of the servers I've worked with where just that. If you don't like your job and are obviously not good at it, go find something else to do with your time. We have to yell, we have to be mean some times. We have to weed out the morons that can't keep with a faced-paced stressful job. Make sense?
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Old 05-12-2010, 01:25 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Interesting.

Throw a knife at me, and you'll be pulling that Betty Crocker cookbook out of your ass. But like I said, I'm not spineless enough for kitchen work.

And I have over a decade's experience in the service industry; most of it behind the bar, but I have been a manager of a bar and grill. If a kitchen manager had pulled some of the shit I'm hearing in this thread, we'd have had a long talk--not in front of employees or customers, in the office. If you can't control yourself any better than that, GTFO. It's that simple.
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Old 05-12-2010, 01:28 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Mister Coaster View Post
Forgive my ignorance, but a quick Google search yeilded no significant results on who Ron Lieber is, so I'll assume he's a random blogger.
Ron Lieber is a columnist for the NYTimes. You can see his page at the NYTimes website here, including a profile: Ron Lieber - The New York Times

And I think one thing to bear in mind here is that all the shouting creates a hostile work environment, which in this lawsuit-happy age is something that employees can and will sue companies over. As I said in the OP, there really are better ways to communicate than yelling and shouting. It may be thought of as expected in a kitchen, but why? It seems lazy and unnecessary to me.
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Old 05-12-2010, 01:30 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I wouldn't throw a knife. I'll just yell.


But the best part about it all... end of service and we'll sit at the bar and laugh about it. And then tomorrow night, you'll be yelling at me.
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Old 05-12-2010, 01:33 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I've worked in kitchens. The most effective leadership I've seen while a line is taking it up the ass didn't include screaming like a shrew at someone who fucked up. Instead, it simply included: "Hey, you fucked that up. [This is why/how.] Now fix it and fix it fast. Do it now." Raised voices, sure. Screaming? No. Top-of-the-lungs yelling? No.

It needed little more than that if anything.

Any chef or restaurateur who loses it like that in earshot and/or sight of customers should probably take a workshop in both anger and business management.
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Old 05-12-2010, 01:38 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru View Post
I've worked in kitchens. The most effective leadership I've seen while a line is taking it up the ass didn't include screaming like a shrew at someone who fucked up. Instead, it simply included: "Hey, you fucked that up. [This is why/how.] Now fix it and fix it fast. Do it now." Raised voices, sure. Screaming? No. Top-of-the-lungs yelling? No.

It needed little more than that if anything.

Any chef or restaurateur who loses it like that in earshot and/or sight of customers should probably take a workshop in both anger and business management.
And just like that, Baraka has made my point far more eloquently than I was doing.
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Old 05-12-2010, 02:23 PM   #24 (permalink)
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The high pressure environment is an excuse to be an asshole. Everyone has pressure. You don't need to be loud to be effective, the problem is your communication skills.
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Old 05-12-2010, 03:05 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Punk.of.Ages View Post
The restaurant business is a very stressful business. I've never seen a higher level of tension than that of a dinner rush in a high end kitchen. Fact is, chef's are by and large huge assholes. I heard mention of Chef Ramsay from Hell's Kitchen somewhere in this thread. That dude doesn't have shit on some of the chefs I've worked for.

I've said it a million times before; very few situations bring out the temperamental, unacceptable, and ridiculous behavior we're more accustomed to seeing out of children, but a busy kitchen is one of those places.

I've never met anybody who works under a chef in a high end restaurant just to pay the bills. If you're only in it to pay the bills, you won't last.

I didn't put up with the yelling, berating, pan/knife throwing, or the temper tantrums to make a few bucks. I put up with it because at the end of the day I was satisfied with myself. I felt as though I'd gone into a jungle and come out with a new tiger fur.

A feeling of accomplishment is worth a lot more than a paycheck.
All of that, QFT. I did it to LEARN. I did it to make sure, one day, that I would be in control of my own restaurant and not have to be under someone's thumb again.

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Originally Posted by World's King View Post
My point is this... if I call for that mid-rare filet four times and you still don't have it for me, I will yell at you. If I call for runners cause food is dying in the window and the service staff stands around ignoring me talking about who fucked who last night in the parking lot, I will yell at you. Get off your ass and do your job. It's my kitchen and my food, you're here to serve it to the people that came here to eat it. If you fuck that up, I will yell at you. Yes, chefs have a pass when it comes to treating employees like worthless piles of shit and 75% of the servers I've worked with where just that. If you don't like your job and are obviously not good at it, go find something else to do with your time. We have to yell, we have to be mean some times. We have to weed out the morons that can't keep with a faced-paced stressful job. Make sense?
Even the biggest dick of a chef I've worked for tried to at least ONCE explain what the fuck to do or what I was doing wrong. If they have to repeat themselves more than once about the same thing, the voulme will increase and add in colorful words.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FuglyStick View Post
But here's the thing, Eden--it's still unacceptable. Why chefs and a few other professions are cut so much slack on ridiculous behavior is beyond me; try that on a factory line, or in a school, or in the fucking military for christ's sake, and see how fast you are called out for it. Being a chef is not a license to be a dick.

But you know what, I don't like dealing with prima donnas anyway; I ain't the one to kowtow to some douche's ego. So, I guess it's a good thing I never pursued a career in the culinary arts. If kowtowing to a douche is the only way to get ahead in the kitchen, God help the miserable souls who do it to pay the bills.
It's not about being a dick, it's about making yourself heard through all the noise in a kitchen. I think there is a difference between yelling and screaming at the top of your lungs. I know I've had to yell (pretty damn loud) trying to get runners to pick up food, telling servers to shut up their order just got fired 2 minutes ago, and trying to communicate with the Maître d' all the same time. You yell, you try to make yourself heard over all of the other bullshit that is going on at the same time you are putting food out.

If this guy was screaming vs yelling, that's a different thing. What was it the movie drill instructors said, "I am not yelling, I am just communicating at a level where everyone can hear me, do you understand private?" You yell a lot in kitchens, I have yelled across kitchens just to make fun of the salad chef for being in the weeds. You yell across the line to the cook on the grill. You yell, people don't like that, they leave. The ones that can handle the rude remarks, the unstable schedule, the long hours, the unbearable heat, the sexual remarks about pretty much anything, the constant teasing/picking/ragging, the assortment of wackoffs/weirdos, and the constant drinking, the long nights partying, the shitty customers, the fuckups, all of it, they stay... cause they love it.
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Old 05-12-2010, 03:36 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Volume is one thing--a kitchen is a noisy place, like a firing range or a construction site. This was berating an employee though.
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Old 05-12-2010, 03:52 PM   #27 (permalink)
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The only mistakes made:

1) the chef gave his employee a bollocking within earshot of his patrons.
2) the food journalist went into the kitchen to complain rather than having a word with the maître d’

As an employee, you will be amazed at what you will put up with if you truly want to learn and/or want a job. It is not about being spineless, quite the opposite actually. Working in a restaurant kitchen, at a high level (again Applebees doesn't even rate), is a stressful job for everyone and no more so than the head chef. The thing to remember is you are free to leave... any time. The is especially true if the chef is both a douche and talentless.
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Old 05-12-2010, 03:55 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by FuglyStick View Post
Volume is one thing--a kitchen is a noisy place, like a firing range or a construction site. This was berating an employee though.
We don't even know what the chef was yelling about. Was the employee fucking up orders? Spilling food all over the place? Ringing in tickets wrong? Bad mouthing the kitchen to cover his/her own ass? How about picking up the wrong plates because they can't listen? Was this the first time they fucked up or was this an on going thing? Was this a busy night and the chef just had enough of a bad server?

We don't know, all we know is the chef went off and the customers heard it. I've watched my prim and proper Maître d' go off on a shitty, shitty waiter (who was only there cause his daddy donated a lot of money to the golf tourney) who decided in the middle of a rush to sit down in the middle of the wait staff area to get a rock out of his shoe. This is coming from a man *I* couldn't even get mad (and believe me I tried), cause he had enough of the server's bullshit.

We are only getting one side of this story. Dumbasses will make anyone reach their breaking point. Everyone has one, maybe the chef was at his point and this server got an ear full.
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Old 05-12-2010, 03:59 PM   #29 (permalink)
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*shrug*

Fair enough. Get up in my face and try to bully or belittle me, though, and you'll find out very quickly how much I will put up with, or how much that job means to me. You won't forget.
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Old 05-12-2010, 04:11 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by FuglyStick View Post
*shrug*

Fair enough. Get up in my face and try to bully or belittle me, though, and you'll find out very quickly how much I will put up with, or how much that job means to me. You won't forget.
Fugly, I'd never fuck with you. One, cause I like ya. Two, you were the BARTENDER, you can serve me drinks while I'm cooking. You get better food than the drones on the floor.

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Ron Lieber is a columnist for the NYTimes. You can see his page at the NYTimes website here, including a profile: Ron Lieber - The New York Times
This guy is a MONEY guy? He's not even a foodie or food blogger? Yeah.... he doesn't need to be going back in the kitchen.
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Old 05-13-2010, 12:21 AM   #31 (permalink)
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fuck that noise- A chef is a fucking glorified cook, and that is fucking all- No one is shooting at a chef, no one is going to die cause someone fucked up an order.... therefore, if I am paying for a likely overpriced meal, then I expect not to have to hear the rant of some puffed up hash slinger to accompany my dinner.... Sure its stressful, but I have found that the first question one should ask when stressed out is.... Is anyone trying to kill me? is anyone shooting at me at the moment??? if the answer is no, then CHILL THE FUCK OUT... Years working section 8 housing make for a special kind of calm, that others could learn from....... And as to his precious kitchen being a sacred space, fuck that too.... A good cook is all well and good, but that man has far too much pretension in him to be allowed to continue.....
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Old 05-13-2010, 12:39 AM   #32 (permalink)
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I would have walked out.
I probably would have let the waiter know that I was going to leave.
I also would have written a letter to the owner describing my experience.
I can't handle that kind of an environment.
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Old 05-13-2010, 11:15 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Thanks, Snowy. I actually saw that and figured it was a different guy. Either way, no right to barge into a kitchen. Maybe if he was a well-known food critic, but a finantial columnist? No.

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fuck that noise- A chef is a fucking glorified cook, and that is fucking all- No one is shooting at a chef, no one is going to die cause someone fucked up an order.... therefore, if I am paying for a likely overpriced meal, then I expect not to have to hear the rant of some puffed up hash slinger to accompany my dinner.... Sure its stressful, but I have found that the first question one should ask when stressed out is.... Is anyone trying to kill me? is anyone shooting at me at the moment??? if the answer is no, then CHILL THE FUCK OUT... Years working section 8 housing make for a special kind of calm, that others could learn from....... And as to his precious kitchen being a sacred space, fuck that too.... A good cook is all well and good, but that man has far too much pretension in him to be allowed to continue.....
I couldn't disagree with you more. There is WAY more to being a chef than just being a cook. Hey, I like to fart around in the kitchen, and I can host a nice dinner party. But I know I'd have A LOT to learn if I ever wanted to work an actual dinner service in a restaraunt kitchen. Are some chefs assholes? Of course they are. But assholes go into all sorts of jobs, not just the restaraunt biz. Even if you think all chefs are assholes, always remember that they cook your food. I mean, you don't want a dude's pubic hair on your burger, do you?

And a server grabbing the wrong order absolutely can cause someone to die. Ever heard of food allergies or anaphylactic shock? Food is seroius business.
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Old 05-13-2010, 11:41 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire View Post
fuck that noise- A chef is a fucking glorified cook, and that is fucking all- No one is shooting at a chef, no one is going to die cause someone fucked up an order.... therefore, if I am paying for a likely overpriced meal, then I expect not to have to hear the rant of some puffed up hash slinger to accompany my dinner.... Sure its stressful, but I have found that the first question one should ask when stressed out is.... Is anyone trying to kill me? is anyone shooting at me at the moment??? if the answer is no, then CHILL THE FUCK OUT... Years working section 8 housing make for a special kind of calm, that others could learn from....... And as to his precious kitchen being a sacred space, fuck that too.... A good cook is all well and good, but that man has far too much pretension in him to be allowed to continue.....
Chefs are not over-glorified line cooks and I hope you never say that within ear shot of someone who cooks professionally in their restaurant. I'm guessing you fall under the "Food is nutrition then it becomes poop" category of thinking about food.

You ever ran your own business? I'm thinking you do, but I'm not sure about that. Let's say you do, do you want your business to succeed? Would you be come stressed if someone was coming into your business and fucking up the way you run it? How about to the point that people stop coming to your shop? How about if it got around town that your "goods" were of poor quality and you never ever shop there. How about if one of your employees was the cause of this? How about a group of them? This can happen everyday in the restaurant world. Every plate, every appetizer, salad, dessert, entree, drink, or even the rolls on the table represents YOU the chef/owner. Your name is on everything and if one item is wrong/messed up, tastes bad, that could be the beginning of the end.

Say a influential business person comes in and has a HORRIBLE experience because of a fucked up recipe, fuckwad server or a lazy cook. That person is going to badmouth the hell out of your business to everyone they meet which could be passed around to person to person causing you to earn a bad rep in your town. It could be because their plate was cold, a single hair in the food, an appetizer tasting wrong, or just not liking the food. It could even be the date, not the food. This can be a death toll for a restaurant that is trying to make a name in the world. Ever wonder why you see restaurants open up and the close a year later? In this business 4 out of 5 restaurants fail in their first year. This is because it is a high-paced, stressful, EXPENSIVE, unforgiving industry. People come in, expect the best food in the world for the cheapest price. They except to be treated as the most important VIPs on the planet. This boils down to a hardcore stressful environment full of micro-managers who have to notice EVERYTHING. Every plate HAS to be perfect or you are fucked. This is the mindset of a chef and it should be. This is why a kitchen is a stressful place to work, everything has to be PERFECT. Everything. To a chef, their kitchen is their home, their life, their baby. You spend 60-70 hours a week, 6 days a week, you consider that YOUR space and you don't like people fucking up your space.

Yeah, no one is shooting at you, but you are putting the most extreme level of stress up against life. I know when my name is on the plate of food going out, I want it to be prefect and god help anyone that is going to stand in my way of that goal.

I'm not sure about you, but when I've got my life savings, my credit line, my financial life, and my NAME riding on the line, I get stressed. Maybe you are the Zen Master, but I get stressed out at times other than when someone is shooting at me. I think most people fall in the same category as me.
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In my own personal experience---this is just anecdotal, mind you---I have found that there is always room to be found between boobs.
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Old 05-13-2010, 12:09 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Fair enough; but as a consumer, I vote with my money and my feet.

Regardless of validity, an ugly argument coming from the kitchen would cause me to leave. There's no end to the stress in my life, why would I pay to share yours?

I'd settle up on the drinks, explain my departure, and walk out.
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Old 05-13-2010, 04:07 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordEden View Post
Chefs are not over-glorified line cooks and I hope you never say that within ear shot of someone who cooks professionally in their restaurant. I'm guessing you fall under the "Food is nutrition then it becomes poop" category of thinking about food.

You ever ran your own business? I'm thinking you do, but I'm not sure about that. Let's say you do, do you want your business to succeed? Would you be come stressed if someone was coming into your business and fucking up the way you run it? How about to the point that people stop coming to your shop? How about if it got around town that your "goods" were of poor quality and you never ever shop there. How about if one of your employees was the cause of this? How about a group of them? This can happen everyday in the restaurant world. Every plate, every appetizer, salad, dessert, entree, drink, or even the rolls on the table represents YOU the chef/owner. Your name is on everything and if one item is wrong/messed up, tastes bad, that could be the beginning of the end.

Say a influential business person comes in and has a HORRIBLE experience because of a fucked up recipe, fuckwad server or a lazy cook. That person is going to badmouth the hell out of your business to everyone they meet which could be passed around to person to person causing you to earn a bad rep in your town. It could be because their plate was cold, a single hair in the food, an appetizer tasting wrong, or just not liking the food. It could even be the date, not the food. This can be a death toll for a restaurant that is trying to make a name in the world. Ever wonder why you see restaurants open up and the close a year later? In this business 4 out of 5 restaurants fail in their first year. This is because it is a high-paced, stressful, EXPENSIVE, unforgiving industry. People come in, expect the best food in the world for the cheapest price. They except to be treated as the most important VIPs on the planet. This boils down to a hardcore stressful environment full of micro-managers who have to notice EVERYTHING. Every plate HAS to be perfect or you are fucked. This is the mindset of a chef and it should be. This is why a kitchen is a stressful place to work, everything has to be PERFECT. Everything. To a chef, their kitchen is their home, their life, their baby. You spend 60-70 hours a week, 6 days a week, you consider that YOUR space and you don't like people fucking up your space.

Yeah, no one is shooting at you, but you are putting the most extreme level of stress up against life. I know when my name is on the plate of food going out, I want it to be prefect and god help anyone that is going to stand in my way of that goal.

I'm not sure about you, but when I've got my life savings, my credit line, my financial life, and my NAME riding on the line, I get stressed. Maybe you are the Zen Master, but I get stressed out at times other than when someone is shooting at me. I think most people fall in the same category as me.
This is, quite possibly, the single greatest post I've ever seen out of you, Eden...

I didn't noticed one typo, either!
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Old 05-13-2010, 04:10 PM   #37 (permalink)
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My response would have been:
1) Ask the rest of my party if they were OK, or if they wanted to leave
2) If leaving was the choice, approach whomever was in charge of the dining room and let him/her know that we were leaving and for exactly what reason
3) If we did not leave, but finished the meal, I would ask for a pen and some notepaper and write a quick note for the chef to let them know how incredibly uncomfortable my party was for having been made to hear him disciplining staff so severely
4) Unless the chef made up for it by apologizing, or explaining why he had to do what he did, I probably would not return (and honestly, it isn't any of my business to discover why he did what he did...it's the business of the chef and that staff person)

For God's Sake - do NOT enter the kitchen of any restaurant uninvited, let alone a higher-scale kitchen!
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Old 05-13-2010, 08:55 PM   #38 (permalink)
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If someone is fucking up my business, I fire them, and have done so before when I had to.... I do not make a scene in front of my customers and drive away business... I run a sword shop, and that's all it is, It is mine, and something I love, and I do often devote 60 plus hours a week to it, and I am the very best at what I do that I have ever met... but its not going to make anything better if I loose my temper and create the same problem that the glorified cook in the story is creating..... as a business owner, you FIX problems, you dont create a whole new one, which is what this asshole did.... I cannot believe anyone out there would side with this freak, sure he can run his kitchen as his, but the minute he intrudes on the dining area he is spoiling MY evening if I am a patron, and all I care about is that he gets his ass back to his kitchen and cooks my food....I will make my own dinner drama if I feel I need it.....If he is supposed to be something more than a glorified cook, then the fucker needs to know something about NOT creating a scene that his GUESTS feel the need to respond to.....
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Old 05-14-2010, 04:32 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire View Post
If someone is fucking up my business, I fire them, and have done so before when I had to.... I do not make a scene in front of my customers and drive away business... I run a sword shop, and that's all it is, It is mine, and something I love, and I do often devote 60 plus hours a week to it, and I am the very best at what I do that I have ever met... but its not going to make anything better if I loose my temper and create the same problem that the glorified cook in the story is creating..... as a business owner, you FIX problems, you dont create a whole new one, which is what this asshole did.... I cannot believe anyone out there would side with this freak, sure he can run his kitchen as his, but the minute he intrudes on the dining area he is spoiling MY evening if I am a patron, and all I care about is that he gets his ass back to his kitchen and cooks my food....I will make my own dinner drama if I feel I need it.....If he is supposed to be something more than a glorified cook, then the fucker needs to know something about NOT creating a scene that his GUESTS feel the need to respond to.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordEden View Post
Both ends of this disagreement were handled wrong, the chef dressing someone down within ear-shot of the customer and the way the customer handled the yelling. **
If you read from the OP on, you will see from my first response I *DO NOT* agree with how the chef handled this. He should NOT allow the general public, especially his customers, to hear a dressing down. I (as someone who cooked for a living many years) wouldn't want to hear that when I was dining out.

I am not defending this chef for what he did, I am defending chefs everywhere from being called "fucking glorified cook" or "some puffed up hash slinger" when I know it takes a lifetime to prefect the art and skill it takes to be a chef. It would be the same thing if I called a master sword smith an "over glorified blacksmith" or "some puffed up knife sharpener" when I know it takes years of training, a natural skill, and a dedication to the craft to make it to that level. It's the line that separates a blacksmith and a weapon maker.

I had that dream once, to become a chef where my name was know the world over. Where my name was held in the highest accord and I was know for my recipes, tastes, and eye for detail. When just the name of my restaurant would bring a wistful look of awe and wonder at just the thought of eating a 6-course sampler dinner at my restaurant . The same look I get when you mention the legends of food Marco Pierre White, Eric Ripert, Anthony Bourdain, or any of the up-incoming chefs making a name in the world of food.

I have respect for you for upholding a tradition dating back thousands of years (that is lost in an age of gunpowder and aerial combat), I just ask you to please have some respect for an art that is as old as your own craft.

** I just quoted myself, I'm getting bad as Jazz and I haven't even unwrapped the plastic on my spammerstick.
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Old 05-16-2010, 09:20 PM   #40 (permalink)
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An update... here is an interview with the Chef from The Gothamist

LINK

Quote:
Yelling Chef Marc Forgione: I'm Not a Psycho Bully!

Yesterday the talented young chef Marc Forgione (son of Larry) was tossed into the center of a classic blog shitstorm after a NY Times columnist wrote about getting ejected from his restaurant after he barged into Forgione's kitchen to tell him to stop yelling at an employee. (You can read reporter Ron Lieber's side of the story here.) During a phone interview today, we gave Forgione the chance to tell his side. In short, he's not a psycho, he's not sorry, and he would like the crank calls to stop, thank you:
The picture that people are getting is that of me standing over a helpless animal screaming and kicking and [Lieber] comes into the kitchen and prevents all this from happening and saves him. That's not what was happening at all... While I was yelling I slammed my hand on a kitchen table and the rack that holds the tickets was loose and came crashing down, which probably made it more dramatic. Then he came in to tell me to keep it down because I was bothering him, not because he was trying to protect anybody. And he's turning into a martyr here. And I just want to make it clear that I am not a bully. I am not a psycho or a bully. Am I passionate? Yes.
Forgione says he did not know Lieber was a Times reporter, but insists he would have reacted the same way, and has no regrets, except a concern that the incident will overshadow the work he's doing at Forgione (which, for the record, is pretty delicious). Since the story went online, the restaurant received a number of threatening calls, as well as funny calls—one caller simply told the hostess, "Shhhh... Shhhh...Tell the chef to stop yelling." Another said, "I'd like to make reservation but if I show up will the chef fucking yell at me?"

"You will never hear me say that I don't yell at people and get a little hot headed in the kitchen," says Forgione. "I don't apologize for that, but for people to think I'm a bully and that I abuse employees is farthest thing from the truth. And this was a runner who I reprimanded, it was not some poor defenseless waitress. This is a grown man who has been in the business for 15 years and has skin thicker than anyone else. And after it happened, at the end of service, we talked it out, I offered to buy him a beer, and I told him I loved him. These things happen."

Asked if he would consider inviting Lieber back in as a goodwill gesture, Forgione said:
No way... He just decided it was okay to come into the kitchen. It has nothing to do with it being "sacred." It's just employees only, it's a kitchen. He stuck his head into doorway, waved his finger at me, and told me to keep it down because he wasn't interested. And I've never heard my kitchen so quiet! Everybody just kind of looked at each other like, 'What the hell was that and who the hell was that guy?' It was the most bizarre thing, just like six seconds of silence, like a record screeching. I took a deep breath, calmly walked to the table, and politely tried to explain why I was so upset. And he waved his hand at me and said, 'Whatever you're doing in there it's obviously not helping.' I apologized to all three of his guests and said, because of him, all three of you have to leave. I did not apologize to him and I will not apologize to him.
We read Forgione this Gothamist comment and asked him about the old maxim that the customer's always right. He replied, "Oh come on, the customer's not always right and the chef's not always right. This whole thing has gotten really blown out of proportion. And it's shocking to me how quick it happened... I feel like I'm one of the witches in the Salem witch hunt. People have just gone straight to conviction. Nobody even heard me talk. I'm a bully, brute, psycho, egotistical maniac because Ron Lieber says so! I feel like I'm in the 18th century. People are wishing harm upon me and hoping my restaurant closes. We're talking about me yelling at one of my employees—that's it." Still, to be on the safe side, we should probably toss him in the Hudson and see if he floats, right?
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