hunnychile

Looking for a job, any job. Yep that’s what I’m feeling right now. Saw a TV News blurb on a Fox channel, 1 day ago that said – I’ll paraphrase (sorry I don’t have a link or the actual quote):

“Many companies are now only reviewing resumes of applicants who are still Currently Employed…to cut down on the time it takes to find qualified job candidates.”

Is this legal?

I was livid when I heard that and am concerned that it will prevent some of us job seekers from ever finding a job!

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Baraka_Guru

I don't think there are laws regulating the discrimination against job status.

I'm finding that many companies are becoming more draconian with their hiring process. I've been reading how many companies are now doing credit checks on their candidates, which means that anyone who has had a financial crisis (no matter how ultimately manageable) risks having this held against them in future job prospects (read: a financial crisis is "evidence that you are irresponsible").

What sucks is that everyone is susceptible to financial crises and everyone is at risk of being out of a job at one point or another. The companies that do this are merely mitigating their risk. Hiring employees is a risky and costly venture. If they can afford the luxury of these screening processes, then they will use them. However, if the worker pool dries up, I'm sure they'll drop them in a heartbeat. They'll do whatever it takes to keep operations running optimally given the current environment.

It just so happens right now that the environment is a "hiring manager's market."

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

dlish

i agree with you BG, but the financial crisis was the result of poor management by corporations and not individuals, yet it seems to indicatethat corporations are looking into the private lives of people that they screwed over. how is that being irresponsible?

corporations will use any means to justify their actions in order to cover their own misdeeds, and that involves blaming and discriminating against employees by using the 'current market situation' as a prelude to say 'fuck you'. hardly seems fair to me.

thats the nature of big business, and this is why the little guys will never win.

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Jinn

Employment status is not a protected status. It can be used to legally determine eligibility for employment. You don't have to work for them, that's how capitalism works.

Consider diversifying your job search or pursuing further education to widen the field of potential positions.

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The_Jazz

What he said. If you're not employed, you might need to have a good reason why. But in this climate, "got laid off and haven't found anything in my field" is a good reason for me.

My former employer is hiring. But that's got to be the most demoralizing job around these days, especially if you know the backstory.

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hunnychile

Getting "more education" sounds great in theory. Who has the money for that?
And government grants from each/any State or the Feds for that additional education is mostly a "talking point" thrown around by the politicians, or so it appears. Ever try to land that grant money?? It's nearly impossible to get.

I know far too many people with advanced degrees or more than one in Industrial Engineering, Architecture, iEEEs, Marketing, MBAs, etc. who are among those of us unable to find work.

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Baraka_Guru

"Education" doesn't necessarily have to be formal. Take your industry, your field, your qualified positions, your hoped-for positions and then read every goddamned trade journal, magazine, book, newsletter, blog, or website you can get your hands on that is in any way related. Prioritize in order of significance/relevance/prominence/timeliness.

While it's great to have a bunch of degrees listed on your resume and a bunch of letters after your name---and, heck, "Dr." in front of your name---you're right: this shit costs money. You know what costs much, much less? A library card. An Internet account. A magazine subscription. While you can't list these things on your resume, you can wow your interviewers by demonstrating that you know your shit. If you can talk the game, they just might let you play the game.

If you want to be among the top in your industry, you have to keep abreast of what's going on. Participate. Go to workshops, seminars, conferences, trade shows, whatever events that go on in your industry. Be a player and it will show when you do get that interview. Oh yeah, doing these things will lead to a greater chance of getting interviews in the first place.

Don't rely on the government. Only look at it as a bonus---an non-essential bonus.

It's possible that they aren't playing the game, or they aren't playing hard enough.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Seaver

I've been running into ads which state boldly, "Unemployed need not apply."

I believe HR departments have gone off the deep end. Gone are the days of personnel working 20 years for a company, due to their practice of constantly laying off "overpaid" people and hiring a 20 year old to do the job for half the cost. I WAS the younger one brought in, I discovered the older manager they ran off was making 65% more than me ($40k/yr more) with less duties attached to the position. I ended up getting laid off 2 years later, and the person they had doing my position (with even MORE duties) was offered $10k/yr less.

Now they are turning around and have the belief that if you were a good employee you wouldn't have gotten laid off, that you'd be one that the company retains. Unfortunately that logic has worked for the last 15 years when unemployment was 3%... with it officially 10% (and actually 15%-ish) it just doesn't hold weight.

I've been unemployed for 7 months now and I'm having trouble even finding a cashiers job.

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hunnychile

Mr. BG, You do make many good points and I thank you.

Seaver, Just for the record - I lost my job because a larger company with more cash bought out the current private owner and the new company/CEO brought in his Team to run marketing and I.T. Also his kids were part of that new team.

Maybe I need relatives with their own companies!!

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Jeon

I'd also like to add to what some have said... In the case of people who have multiple degrees etc etc, you need to remember that you only want to show the qualifications that are applicable to the job you are applying for. Companies often do not like to hire over-qualified persons, because then they will have to pay you more and/or worry about you finding something better. They want you to stick around until THEY are ready to let you go, not until you find something better.

Schwan

I'm starting to see how people arrived at the whole communism idea. Also, how history runs in circles.

Bodyhammer86

I can feel your pain with the job market, but in a different way.

I'm trying to get a job in the criminal justice system and to say it's a bitch and a half is putting it lightly. Since many of these positions are basically government jobs (meaning municipal police forces, county sheriff offices, jails, community corrections, and so on), they're being annihilated by budget constraints. It also doesn't help matters that police work is now "the cool things to do." Believe it or not, 20-30 years ago, you couldn't pay people enough to be cops. At this point in time however, everyone and their grandma wants to be a cop, and then you have laid off workers from other industries that are attracted to it because of the job security. In short, because of budget constraints, law enforcement agencies may have 2 or 3 openings (if they're hiring at all) and because of the above factors, they have hundreds of people applying for them. As such, they have to find ways to weed people out to thin the pool (usually the interview portion) and as such, it's incredibly hard to get a job in the criminal justice system right now.

But if it's anything that pisses me off more than anything, it's seeing job openings in my field, which are mundane, entry level positions in the 29k-35k salary range which anyone could learn with a few weeks of training, but in spite of that, they requre 3-5 years of experience for all of them. This is particularly frustrating because how the fuck am I supposed to get that damn experience if no one is willing to hire me inexperienced? Of course, I've noticed this with other fields as well.

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streak_56

BG, I agree with everything you said. I work in the trades and although it was a little hard for a few months, I don't think north of the border has been hit as hard as it did in the US. But I got a job in a place that was hard to find workers for the most mundane jobs, and when you're making $20/hour at McDs or a fast food joint and I was making 14/hour as an electrician, fast food is where it was, but I got a nice kick in the ass from my Dad to get a career as apposed to a "job." And personally, I think the job market is more of an experience market compared to a more educational market. Most of the people I went to school with for upgrading my training didn't even graduate high school and trust me, there is alot of useless people trying to get into the trades because its the job to get into right now.

Now, becoming an electrician was just a fall back for me, I really want to get back into school for two different fields... first.. the dumb one... I want to become a grafiti artist, and I really need someone to guide me where to go.... second I want to finish my Geophysics degree so that I can make some good money. I've already become a journeyman and I think that the trade is just a good fall back just in case the geophysics thing doesn't work out, artist is only a fun thing but I need to do a few things for myself once in awhile.

Now onto my theories. I believe this whole "market crash" came about from a few things... People/Corporations living beyond their means, that a person chose to get the 35 year mortgage because they couldn't afford the 150000 house on a 25/20 year mortgage. I have a friend who was suppose to go on strike and because most of their employees couldn't afford to take a week off because they could sustain a lifestyle they had built for themselves and they live way out of their means, they had to accept a crappy contract and get screwed over right now. And the company that use to be able to afford paying their employees a higher wage because it made them competitive with other companies are now hurting as well.

With a market that has a huge flow of people with little positions for them.... people are going to have to realize that they are going to have to suck it up for awhile, get paid less, get less benefits until this all blow over. I make 35.50/hour now but I have no benefits at all and right now, I'm vastly overpaid because the market here is still short of people. I think the trades here are full of alot of people who cannot think for themselves and needs to be told what to do, instead of being independant thinkers, which to me undermines the trades. How is technology here supposed to change if everyone is just stuck in a rut because that's what is most comfortable to them.

If some law makers, workers, manufacturers got off their asses and started to develop better greener technology, that would create such a large opportunity for alot of people, busniesses and might be the right direction for countries to come out of the recession. The whole situation isn't about bailing failing companies out, its about a market shift toward something that works better for society as a whole. In Alberta, its all about Oil Money here and there's really no other industries around and if governments and companies got their heads together, Alberta could be a leader in green technology and become the single greatest irony ever... an oil based province developing green technology. We just need some free thinkers to lead the revolution of responsible business and hard working attitude and a willingness to reward hard working people.





end rant...

Stare At The Sun

On your resume put that you're doing "independent contracting" or working as a 1099 employee or something.

You can't find a job? Then lie.

Baraka_Guru

This might seem all right at first—that is until 4 or 5 weeks in when they find out you lied....or at least "embellished" a bit.....

Misrepresentation during the hiring process is grounds for termination.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Schwan

I say fuck'em. At least go out in a blaze of glory. Putting these requirments in is not fair to begin with. Inhumane, I'd say. I guess it boils down to your world outlook - is the company there just to make money? If you think so, then using the current market condition for your gain will come naturally. I believe we all have a debt of sorts towards humanity, life and so on. There are many things a company could do without flipping the finger tot he unemplyed, like run internships.

Baraka_Guru

"Inhumane" is a huge stretch, and I'm going to have to disagree with you. We're talking about business and employment here. Do you honestly expect compassion from companies? It's only business, don't take it personally. Companies have the right to say no to you if you are unemployed. It's as simple as that. What would you suggest otherwise? Legislation barring such decisions?

As for your support for lying to get a job: how is dishonesty any better than what these companies are doing? I'd say that's worse. At least the companies are being honest and up front about it.

No company is there just to make money; however, the number one purpose of any company of any size---as always---is to make a profit. When the economy is bad, companies are out there to protect their profits. They do this with cost savings (layoffs, cutbacks, pay freezes, etc.). The factor that relates to this thread is the human resources factor.

Human resources is a huge component of a company, and so you get various strategies and practices they will use to manage their personnel. In a down economy, things are tight and productivity demands are high. As a hiring manager you want people who are ready to hit the ground running. An already-employed person is more promising in this respect than an unemployed person. Think about it: would you rather pluck a productive employee out of another company and drop him or her into your company, or would you rather consider the someone who's been out of work for 8 months? You have one position to fill and it's to head up a department that's losing money, and the whole company is on track for a Q2 loss as it is. The new hire will be responsible for turning it around. The stakes are high. What do you do?

This is such a loaded statement that I don't know what to think of it. As for the internships, I wouldn't be surprised if companies aren't already doing more of it given the environment.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

genuinegirly

News of this trend makes me sad. This must be affecting a LOT of people right now.

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Seaver

Actually I've started to do this. My brother in law is a wedding photographer... I've started putting down that for the last 7 months I've worked for his studio as a "Sales Consultant" and embellished the hell out of it. All I've done is help him lug crap too and from bridal fairs but there's no way you'd know that from my masterful resume skills.

Yeah I'm falsifying records but the HR departments are forcing me into it.

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"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

Daniel_

Rule one for lying: don't tell ANYONE you've done it.

Seriously - what happens if in a year you've got your dream job, a colleague joins here and realises you're you, happens to mention the really hillarious thing he found out, and next you know, you're out for gross misconduct.

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snowy

Heh. I created my own small business a couple years ago--very small business--in order to list an actual company on my resume instead of cataloging all of the piddly little childcare jobs I get and do. When people asked about it in interviews, they were actually impressed that I'd taken the initiative to try and create work for myself. But I did not lie in the process of doing so--I even have business cards, although I need new ones because I changed phone numbers.

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LordEden

For a bit gap in my resume (when I was cooking), I put I ran my own independent consulting business in tech industry. I actually did have work under that business when I did repairs and some web design. Helps flesh out the resume when I was over glorified hash slinger.

What about internships? Even part time helping in a police dept or something local to pad your resume. Might give you a leg in for a job. Networking is a big thing now adays. I mean... if you are already making $0 a month, why not make $0 a month and add some experience to your "I got lots of college learnin' but no job" resume.

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snowy

Volunteer work will work for that too.

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Schwan

I don't enjoy the "It's only business, don't take it personally" sentiment. I know it's how things work these days, but I think we can do better. As for legislations - I don't know, but I think this might be a regional thing. Having worked in a number of places in Europe, I haven't seen a single case of someone saying no the the unemployed. Furthermore, I can;t imagine someone doing it here, depsite the fact that the job market is as bad as it is in the US.

It's a stretch, I know, but barring unemployed people even from consideration seems on par with other forms of discrimination. I haven't thought that deeply about, but my gut feeling ATM is yes, legislation could do good in this case. I have a lot of family in the US and they'd probably lob bricks at me for saying this, though.


As it stands, comapnies in some places of the world have the comfort to be upfront about it; in others, they don't (see above), yet they still do this to a degree I'm sure. But the point is this: if you do something, because it's a dog eat dog world out there, you have to be ready to other people doing the same thing. People are out there too survivie too; they also want to marginalize their profit. I'm sure lieing doesn't come easy to most people, but with an open disregard towards them, it'll be much easier for them to act this way. Make no mistake, I'd rather things didn't come down to this.

It's all very sound from an economic point of view. And the example you've provided makes sense. But then - who is the person who has been unemplyed for 8 months? Provided he has relevant experience, I wouldn't be that quick to dump him because of whatever happened before. If you assume that unemplyed = bad employee, then there's a problem right there. Under these circumstances though, that usually is just not the case. It's just as risky with a person coming fresh out of another just - that person might be burnt out, or complacent, unimaginative, whatever. Unemplyment status is not a great filter these days.

It's a statement coming from my idealistic gut. It's something I try to go by, but obviously wouldn't force it on anyone - just the way I'd like to see things be. So, yes, loaded and personal. As far as internships go - there are some places that do this. From my point of view, however, there isn't any more internships available than before. Companies preffer to do what you say, because it's easier for them, and more profitable. But it does bring an element of hostility into the whole process, and that breeds hostility back - like lieing.

Jove

I suppose quitting my job and traveling throughout Europe would be a bad idea eh?

Bodyhammer86

To clarify, I did two internships as part of my curriculum and while they were excellent experiences, the hiring process for police/sheriff's offices is done in a different way than the private sector. Meaning, that they're using devices like merit boards, etc to prevent nepotism and political connections from playing a role in the hiring process.

Also, I'm not unemployed, but I'm still not in my field and working retail part time. In addition, I live in a small town in a particularly economically depressed part of the state where the police departments and sheriff's offices are small, don't have much in the way of civilian positions and volunteer opportunities. As such, I'm not moving to some place else until I get a serious job because I can't live on a Wal Mart salary here, much less a more urban area.

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Tully Mars

I think volunteering and internships are great however if you're unemployed and have no income it may be difficult to afford even transportation to and from such a position, just a thought. I think registering a DBA with your state and making your own business, even if it has zero income, is a good way to close gaps but it too has potential problems. I'd be prepared to answer what the net and gross was of said business during an interview.

As for lying- I think that's an onion best left unpeeled.

I'm with GG the whole situation makes me sad.

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Hektore

In my experience HR managers tend to know about as much about the people they're hiring as they do the jobs they're hiring them for, which is to say, not very much at all.

I will freely admit, however, that hiring people is not an easy task because there is no effective test to determine whether or not a person is going to be a good employee. HR folks have to rely on proxies such as work history, school grades, etc to attempt to hedge their bets about a particular person's likelihood of being a good employee. The problem is because the applicant pool is so deep right now they can pick bad proxies and get away with it. An large applicant pool has plenty of people who meet just about any requirement they feel like making up.

Current employment status is an example of a bad proxy(right now) for reasons already clearly laid out in the thread. The main reason being: the job market right now is anything but business as usual.

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Craven Morehead

Been out of a job for nearly 16 months now. Virtually no jobs within the industry that I have 30+ years of experience in. Starting over in another verticle at my age is not easily accomplished. Have encountered the same situation where an employer will only consider hiring someone who is currently employed. I am doing some consulting but that doesn't really count - seems like everyone who is unemployed eventually becomes a consultant. Most in HR know that as well.

Here's a CNN article about the same, and some tips on how to get around it.

In the job hunt, the stigma of being laid off is hard to erase - CNN.com

Good luck to all seeking employment, it really does suck.

raging moderate

Embellishing your resume to "talk up" a job is not illegal, hell most interviewers expect it. I've interviewed peole and hired for a range of positions, and I (and everyone else) always ask about the resume items such as what specifically was the work, how many people reported to you, etc. I want people to be able to embellish a little. If they aren't savvy enough to sell me on their experience (ie themselves) they damn sure won't be savvy enough to sell their ideas to subordinates or sell products to customers. I think that photography example was spot on and exactly the type of creative , industrious thing I look for in a candidate. You were in a tough spot but you made the best of it . Very nice.





---------- Post added at 09:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:13 PM ----------

Yep

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These are the good old days...



formerly Murp0434

hunnychile

Wish me luck, I have an interview on Friday!!!! My fingers are crossed! And it's only a 10 minute commute from home...

Meanwhile,
I'm still sending out my resume and making cover letters. BTW - All the responses here have been interesting and worth a read.

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Seaver

Good luck...

I've had 5 interviews, with 4 job offers, in the last 7 months.

1 offered health insurance... though required 350+ mi/week driving with no compensation with my personal car.

3 offered no benefits whatsoever, with 100% commission and no minimum income assistance. Hell 1 of those was with an insurance company that claims it no longer offers insurance to it's employees!

But yeah... good luck.

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Fire

at some point, someone might create a company- It is not all that hard- and offer the service of providing "verifiable experience" to those wishing to meet the increasingly harsh employment requirements... they would of course furnish glowing recommendations, and verify any experience their "employee" claimed.... within believable reason of course..... This could even be done among a small group of friends........ remember. the modern world is nothing but a construct, when the rules are unfair, is it truly wrong to MAKE YOUR OWN.......

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Seaver

I live in a fairly well-to-do neighborhood (sister's in-laws helped buy them a great house in foreclosure). Our neighbor across the street is in the same boat I am, unemployed for the previous 8 months. We actually have started discussing starting up an LLC Sales Consultant business ($200 to start) simply for the ability to put it down on resume and we can cover each other in the case of references/work ethic.

I'd be surprised if there's not more of that going on in the near future.

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"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

hunnychile

Several of my friends who have been unemployed for a Year or longer have created businesses of their own. One is deconstructing blighted houses in Youngstown, Ohio and there are over 6,000 homes that have been abandoned and "unlivable" according to city records. He's able to hire a team of 6 to 8 workers per house and hopes to increase that number by next year. Finding cash and grant money to pay for the workers has been a major hurtle. He hopes resale of wood, brick etc. from these older houses will create some revenue to keep his company "alive".

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Monolith

most of the jobs i've been dealing with you have to go overseas to get.
the time it takes to get hired or actually working .. you'd wind up working at some call center just for the paperwork to go thru. or taking another job in the meantime just to make ends meat.

Brennan

OP,

I feel your job-related pain.
When we moved from CA to TX, our plan was to be a single income family, with me playing the part of stay-at-home dad.
Shit happened: medical emergencies, business problems, etc and a year after the move I found myself scrambling for a job in a new to me state, and in a less than healthy economy/job market.

I had been unemployed for about a year, and was deemed over qualified for many entry level jobs.

I ended up getting a job with the state in Corrections, hardly my first choice given my education and previous work history, but we take work where we can find it, que no?

Good luck to you and any others looking for work.
B.

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hunnychile

Thanks Brennan, and Good Luck to you also. At least San Antonio is a bigger city than where I live. /I'm in NE Ohio/

I'm busy looking into several other job possibilities and am volunteering the rest of my time helping to market a "green, deconstruction and recycling" type of company locally.

Myself and 2 other friends are involved in this new green company - we are all educated college grads with years of professional experience and we don't want to sit around waiting for the phone to ring. And We're tired of being told we are over qualified for the few jobs that are available.

IMHO it seems to be some "age issues" floating around in many open job circles that make a lot of us over 50 feel like we're either too old to work or just not fast enough!

These are tough times.

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