Strange Famous

No, because a child doesnt have a lawful right to roam freely, and it is not the in the health and safety interests of a child for such a right to exist.

A child does have a legal right to protection from violence (at least as far as I can tell and believe)

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

EventHorizon

when was the last time you saw an adult in an all out fight with a kid? its not assault, its controlled (most of the time anyways) violence for the sake of discipline

__________________
Does Marcellus Wallace have the appearance of a female canine? Then for what reason did you attempt to copulate with him as if he were a female canine?

Quote:

Originally Posted by canuckguy Pretty simple really, do your own thing as long as it does not fuck with anyone's enjoyment of life.

Shadowex3

So if spankings didn't work could I, in a controlled manner, use a taser on them to cause more effective pain? What about forcing them to eat a habanero? Why is that abuse but physically striking them isn't? Is it because there's some arbitrary amount of pain and suffering where it becomes abuse? Who gets to decide that? Degrading the suffering of those who ARE being abused by insisting it "doesn't count" is what significantly degrades the suffering of those who are genuinely being abused.

Yes I'm sure you "deserved it" because you "made them do it"...


Children are extremely perceptive. They can tell the difference between getting their attention with swatting their hand away from something that's genuinely about to harm them and genuine physical violence, no matter how supposedly calculated it is. And therein lay the problem: Hitting them doesn't teach them what they did is wrong, or what they SHOULD have done instead, it just teaches them that it's perfectly alright for bigger people to use violence on smaller or weaker people when they're angry with them.

It doesn't just hurt the kids though, violence is like heroin. It doesn't matter how "clinical" you are about it, how supposedly detached or unemotional you claim to be, it changes you inside a little bit every time. Listen to a parent very quickly get angry when confronted about that sometime, they all say the same things: They can stop anytime they want, they're perfectly in control, it's not REALLY hurting anyone, its the kids fault for "making" them do it, and it's none of your business. Just like any addict waiting for their next hit, and just like any addict they will build up a tolerance over time.


Anytime this subject comes up there's one personal anecdote that I've always found very effective on anyone who has not come into the argument already utterly unwilling to change their mind: My mother was raised in an old fashioned religious family in Israel. Her father believed, like a lot of people on the internet do, that corporal punishment isn't abuse. Well, she disagreed, and one day when she grew up she came home and paid him back for a lifetime of violence all at once by literally beating him to within an inch of his life. Nobody did a thing to stop her. After all if it's not abuse then it can't be illegal to do it back to the parent when you're strong enough, if it's illegal to do it to the parent then logically it must be FAR worse to do to a minor who is supposed to have greater protections than an adult.

There are plenty of examples out there of people who do just fine controlling entire roomfulls of what are supposedly the worst kids in an entire county without even raising their voice sometimes. I don't buy it that violence is necessarily, if the kid is that messed up then it should be readily proveable to any doctor and you need an outside solution, otherwise it's simply a failure of parenting.

__________________

Mathilda

I slapped my older one on the back of his hand once.
He was two years old, and he tried to stick a toy into the vcr. His six month old brother had just fallen asleep in my arms so I couldn't raise my voice and he didn't pay any attention to a quiet "no".
He didn't cry, but the way he looked at me was heart wrenching.
It was full of disbelief and kind of disappointment.
Looking at him then made me believe that the only thing slaps would achieve would be to drive him away from me, add distance and disrespect.
When you just completely take that option out, there are other ways.

Having said that...
Before I had kids I knew exactly how to raise them.
Now I know that it's not all as simple as that.

EventHorizon

tasers and habaners DON'T work because you can't control the severity of the experience. with spanking, you can control the punishment if they, for instance, chase around a sibling with the kitchen's largest knife or if they just lie about whether they stole a cookie. maybe you're right though, tazers and habaneros are just the same and require much less effort to my arms and thought in my noggin, i'll remember to use those when i have kids.

to answer your questions, yes, it is somewhat arbitrary. you can't control the exact amount of carrots the some restaurant is going to put in your soup, but they know when enough is enough to make the soup work. the parent gets to decide that based on the severity of the behavior leading to that punishment.

__________________
Does Marcellus Wallace have the appearance of a female canine? Then for what reason did you attempt to copulate with him as if he were a female canine?

Quote:

Originally Posted by canuckguy Pretty simple really, do your own thing as long as it does not fuck with anyone's enjoyment of life.

Shadowex3

Your definition excludes the possibility of defining anything that doesn't leave a lasting physical damage (bruises, bleeding, broken bones, etc) as child abuse. By your definition even forcing a child to place their hands in or stand in salty ice water for 90 seconds would not be child abuse, nor would resorting to whipping them until they can't stand for the slightest reason, just something the parent decided was merited based on the severity of the behavior.

I have not yet heard a single justification for corporal punishment that did not boil down to one of three things:

1. You can't stop me
2. They're not big enough to stop me therefore it must be ok
3. It was done to me therefore I am justified in doing it to others

__________________

EventHorizon

how many people do you know that actually got that treatment? i would say 95% of parents at their worst pull out the belt. do some people do worse? of course. same thing with food though, for all you know, your cook added "special ingredients" to your meal but the vast majority dont. why does physical punishment fitting the transgression = bad?

how many people actually say points 1 and 2? as for number 3, my parents had jobs, got married, had a kid, rewarded me when i did great and punished me when i did wrong. i still fail to see where they went wrong

__________________
Does Marcellus Wallace have the appearance of a female canine? Then for what reason did you attempt to copulate with him as if he were a female canine?

Quote:

Originally Posted by canuckguy Pretty simple really, do your own thing as long as it does not fuck with anyone's enjoyment of life.

Cynthetiq

add reason #414,232 as to why there will be no spawn from me.

too many people telling me how to do it, and then when I do it that way, another set of too many people telling me that I did it wrong.

If I had kids, I'd sure be giving them a spanking if they deserved it.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Fire

remember people. the entire world, every single government, is ultimately governed by the threat of physical violence- it has always been so, and I believe it will always be so- non violent approaches work a lot better on the internet, and raising a child is a lot easier for those who dont have one- frankly, I think that no one should have a say in how someone raises their child, unless they have one themselves.... they without a child have no real frame of reference....

__________________
Thought the harder, Heart the bolder,
Mood the more as our might lessens

Charlatan

Just because "it's the way things are done" doesn't mean it's the way things have to be.

I stand by my earlier statement. There is no need to hit a kid. To do so implies laziness and a lack of imagination.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Willravel

It also often implies a temper.

Charlatan

Will, I don't think it universally implies a temper. There are parents that do not strike in anger. My mother never hit me in anger.

Regardless of the anger, it simply isn't necessary. There are methods that are equally, if not more, effective that do not require striking your children. The difficulty with these methods is that they require parents to do more work than some appear to want to do.

Hitting your kids is the easy way but, as has been pointed out above, it requires a parent to rule by fear of pain rather than rule through respect.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Baraka_Guru

I think the law is in effect and applies to everyone regardless of whether they breed.

Let's not forget that children are human beings, not property.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Strange Famous

Really?

So if a guy in the street hits you, but doesnt go all out and beat the hell out of you, it wouldnt be an assault?

Thats an interesting interpretation of the law.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Baraka_Guru

Spanking strangers isn't assault, is it?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

KirStang

No, once you physically contact someone it becomes battery. Assault is putting someone in the fear of battery.

====================

I really wish people would stop citing the law without a full comprehension of how everything melds together.

..........

although you legally cannot consent to battery, I suppose spanking a stranger clad in latex wouldn't subject one to prosecution...

__________________

Baraka_Guru

Unfortunately, I don't think many TFPers are legislators, cops, lawyers, judges, and legal scholars, so we'll have to make do.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Strange Famous

If someone come up to you in the street and slapped you in the face, they'd probably get convicted of common assault.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

snowy

I truly believe there are exceptions to this, and I wish parents would get off their "You don't have a kid yourself, you can't understand" high horse. Some of the kids I work with spend more time with me in a given week than they do with mom or dad, and yes, some of my kids truly mean a lot to me. I have about 24 different frames of reference, because each child I work with is different. Some positive discipline techniques work really well with some kids, and some don't. Using positive discipline requires people to think on their feet and try different approaches to problem solving.

Working with children--parent or teacher--isn't any different than many other activities in terms of problem solving--think, plan, do, review. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, try another trick. I have about twenty different positive discipline approaches I turn to when I need to.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Willravel

Not necessarily 'universally', but I would argue often. That's why I say it 'often implies anger'.

Poetry

Reading over the last several comments, I will say that the incidents of physical punishment that stick out in my mind the most and, I would venture, are at least partially responsible for my anxiety in dealing with other people, were the times I was repeatedly struck in anger by my father or yanked (always the upper arms, still unnerves me when I'm grabbed there) by my mother.

The other ones... little to no psychological impact that I can determine.

If I manage to have children, I do not know if I will smack them. I think, if they're like me, they'll need to be smacked. But if they are more like my sister, smacking will be unnecessary.

Where that becomes a problem is if there are multiple children and some warrant smacking and some do not. That creates an inequality that is hard for a child to forget or rationalize.

__________________
"You know what? Fuck the moon! He controls our water and our women. I've had enough!"

Shadowex3

That's because it can't be rationalized, there is no child that NEEDS violence, only adults that are incapable of dealing with that child without resorting to it.

__________________

Hektore

There is no equivalence between being a parent and being responsible for children for a portion of your day. The roles do not overlap in a way that makes them honestly comparable.

I also think that discounting the opinion of the only group of people (parents) with enough experience to make that judgment and then complaining about their 'high horse' is laughable.

__________________
The advantage law is the best law in rugby, because it lets you ignore all the others for the good of the game.

Shadowex3

I don't own a car, can I not tell you not to drive drunk? I don't own a gun, can I not tell you not to sweep me at the range? I don't have a child, can I not tell you not to abuse them?

As I said, it all boils down to the same three arguments couched in righteous indignation:
1. You can't stop me (the root of "your opinion is invalid")
2. They're too small to stop me
3. It was done to me

And then when someone who DOES have children or spends more time responsible for them and their discipline than the parents shows up the line is just as indignantly and even more desperately redrawn to somehow render that person's opinion illegitimate.

__________________

Baraka_Guru

I think parents are too biased to be left alone to make decisions about how children should be treated. They're emotionally compromised.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

filtherton

As a parent, the level of annoyance that I feel when someone is giving me unsolicited parenting advice is the same regardless of whether the person giving the advice is a parent or not.

However, there are frequently opinions expressed by nonparents about children and parenting which seem completely fucking ludicrous to me as a parent. Not pointing to anyone in particular here, just stating a general experience of mine *cough* analog *cough*.

Hektore

I'm pretty sure the argument has been made (and if it hasn't I'm going to make it now) that

1. It's effective
2. It's not abuse.

__________________
The advantage law is the best law in rugby, because it lets you ignore all the others for the good of the game.

KirStang

I know this isn't adding any intellectual value to the debate, but:



Cheap laugh, I know.

__________________

Plan9

Excellent. I came back after a far too short hiatus to another "I have kids, I'm a subject matter expert" thread.

Here's your real LOL, JD! Get some!

Interesting.

I wonder how kids interpret "respect" at their level. Fear of consequences maybe?

Pretty sure parents rule through fear. Respect is merely an amorphous guise word here.

And kids that understand the concept of respect are too old for spanking anyway.

...

You can bet your boots ancient Spartans smacked their kids. That should be our goal.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Shadowex3

Kids understand respect as much as anyone else, they may not have the vocabulary to articulate it but just looking at them you can tell that they feel it.

That isn't an argument, that's saying "I'm right because I say I am". Observe:

1. It's not effective
2. It is abuse.

"Do as I say, not as I do, or I'll hurt you" doesn't teach children WHY they shouldn't do something, it doesn't teach them what they SHOULD have done, all it does is teach them that bigger people can make smaller people do what they want by hurting them. On top of that controlling someone by fear and pain only works as long as they actually fear pain. As soon as they build up a pain tolerance, and they will, you're in deep shit because short of killing them there's nothing you can do to them anymore and eventually they're going to figure out that can hit back.

__________________

Plan9

"Just look at them, you can feel it" doesn't hold a lot of water.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

filtherton

Pretty sure they fucked their kids too. Though that might have been for nonpunishment reasons.

ngdawg

With all due respect, Snowy, the kids are not yours, you are doing your job. Should you be a proponent of CP, you'd be arrested and fired if you carried it out.
To those who don't have kids, don't work with kids and their only "experience" is once being a kid, the task of raising and disciplining children is different than what your parents went through because we are not our parents. We might "live what we know" but we still do things based on our own experiences and circumstances. Kids of parents who spanked might do more or less with their own. Those who say "my parents spanked me so I will never do it" or vice versa may very well react totally differently when they themselves become parents. It is simply not something you can define with certainty until you are in it.
I have encountered people like you and it aggravates the piss out of me. I used wrist "leashes" with my twins when they were toddlers so I didn't have to constantly chase them, hold their hands in that annoyingly uncomfortable "arms up in the air" and allow them a modicum of freedom and I was constantly berated with nasty comments of the "they're not dogs" variety. My usual response was "I know. I can replace my dog".
My kids-especially my son-were spanked. (He was later diagnosed with both ADD and a behavorial allergy to Sodium Nitrate). Until his diagnoses, he was incorrigible. Time-outs prompted tempter tantrums.
You do what works. Beatings? No. That's sick. But spanking, a smack on the hand with a firm "NO!" usually work. How dare you cop your holier-than-thou attitude on strangers. Unless you see actual harm, STFU and keep walking.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Baraka_Guru

Where do people stand on corporal punishment in schools?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Hektore

Time-outs don't teach anything either, other than that a bigger and stronger person can force you to sit in a corner. It is the conversation that takes place parallel to discipline that teaches the appropriate lesson.

Some times a conversation is enough, sometimes it isn't. When it isn't, you have to have something else to bring to the table to force the kid to listen. Revoking privileges, time-outs and spanking are all extended consequences for breaking rules. They also all boil down to a reliance on force. How, for example, can you make a kid stay in their room if they refuse to do so, other than physical force?

Spanking obviously isn't always the best or only solution but it is a tool that can be an effective deterrent.

__________________
The advantage law is the best law in rugby, because it lets you ignore all the others for the good of the game.

RogueGypsy

Fuck! I must have typed thirty different responses to this thread and deleted them all. Most of them started with something about little people and their little minds, no, I was not referring to children. But I'm trying to take a more tactful approach to this, maybe the light will shine.

First let me suggest, if you do not have children of your own STOP! I don't care how much time you spend washing, waxing, repairing, designing, building, tuning or driving a car. You can not teach me how to drive Formula One, unless you've done it. You have no experience, therefore your opinion is mute. If you haven't done it, don't try to teach others how to do it. This is the beginning of many great failures. And a large part of the failings in our educational system, but that's another topic altogether. If you haven't done it successfully, just stop. Maybe, just maybe, this will prevent one senseless "Hey, Skeeter, watch this." moment.

On to the topic.

It all boils down to motivation. Motivating a child to behave in an acceptable manner, one that we can all live with and brings no harm to themselves or others.

Two emotions are at the root of all motivation, love and fear. Everything we do can be traced back to one or the other, often both. I am a fan of love and take that approach whenever possible. However, fear has it's place and is a necessary part of life. It can divert us from harm and it can empower us to face the unknown. Fear is a tool. As with any tool, if you don't respect it, it can take a limb or worse. Fear can cause harm as can love.

It has been my experience that love will motivate a child in most situations, but not all. When 'not all' roles around, you better have a game plan or shit is gonna go sideways fast. Then you're gonna have some nosy asshole in line at the grocery store, trying to tell you how to raise your child. This, in my opinion, is one of the only acceptable times to apply violence. No, not to the child. Now if that game plan entails a swat to the butt or a tap of the hand to get the child's undivided attention, so that you can correct the behavior. I find that totally acceptable, a little fear/surprise is a big attention getter. If it entails a swing and a hit strong enough for an infield double, you may find yourself wondering how you ended up cuffed, on the floor looking up at a couple of EMT's. As with all things, moderation is key.

And that my friends is what this conversation is sorely lacking, moderation.

Why does the popular opinion these days always lean toward extremes? It seems every time an idea is expressed; some 'Guru' or 'Expert' gets a hold of it, mulls it over while sculpting the shit in his diaper, has an epiphany, and announces it to the world as 'The Solution'. WTF are we so lost these thin straws of idiotic pablum is all we have? I think not. Start thinking for yourself, it has remarkable benefits. Combine other's ideas with your experience and you often get moderation. At the very least you're thinking for yourself and that's a step in the right direction.

Now I haven't seen anyone completely disregard discipline as a necessary tool in raising a child. So all is not lost. But I have seen a few examples of what I will call a disservice to your children. If you are not getting your message through, it is your duty as a parent to take the necessary steps to make yourself clearly understood to your children. If that means physical contact must be made, then so be it. Every child is different, some are just too busy in their own head to hear what you have to say. That can be a good thing if properly focused, it's how you make the Darwin List if not. A slap on the hand or swat to the butt, can and will save your child a world of pain later in life. Assuming, of course, that what you have to convey is real world experience and not some bullshit by a best selling author. And that, after all is the point, isn't it? To try to give your child the tools they need to live and prosper in the real world?!

It used to be real simple, children were told how to behave. If they obeyed, they lived. If they ignored the advise, the Lion ate them. End of story. Do you know why you're here today? It's because some Neanderthal beat his kids when they didn't listen. You can take that to the bank. Now, life isn't so cut and dry, but the Lions are still out there and they will eat you alive. Although we like to think we are more enlightened, or some how above violence. Children are not. Until your late 20's, you are still operating on the Neanderthal level. Enlightenment and transcendence comes with time and experience, which enables wisdom. Children have neither the experiences nor the time necessary to understand the experiences, which leads to wisdom. It's up to you to help them develop it before they are permanently scared by a lack of it. You have to think for your children until they can think rationally on their own. Sometimes that means doing things you might not like. Giving them your wisdom successfully, whether they want it or not, is the difference between being Skeeter or being the one saying 'Hey, watch this'.

If you reward your children for everything they do, no matter how poorly it's done.
If you allow your children to behave in a manner unacceptable to society.
If you teach your children that the world is all rainbows and butterflies.
If you force your opinion of child rearing on others by passing laws that disallow discipline.
If you do not listen to your children.
If you do not prepare your children for the real world.

You are every bit as guilty of child abuse as the drunk asshole that beats his kids every day.

One final note. I am a strong believer in the theory that "It takes a Village....". We develop all of our fundamental social skills, our basis for opinion, our diversity and our ability for rational thought through interaction with others. Without the thoughts and ideas of others, we're living in the shallow end of life. If your child is behaviorally unacceptable to his/her peers and/or adults they are forever destine to live in the kiddie pool of life. As a parent, do you really want to subject your child to that, because you read/heard somewhere some 'Expert', someone you don't even know, decided it's not right for you to make physical contact with your child as a means to educate/discipline? Do you think it's right to force other parents to follow this idea by making it a law? How many bad experiences have you had, because you acted on someone else's, unknown to you, wrong opinion? What are you afraid of?





.....
..

__________________
Methods, application and intensity of application vary by the individual. All legal wavers must be signed before 'treatment' begins. Self 'Medicating' is not recommend. However, if necessary, it is best to have an 'assistant' or 'soft landing zone' nearby. Any and all legal issues resulting from improperly applied techniques should be forwarded to: Dewy, Cheatum & Howe, Intercourse, PA 17534. Attn: Anonymous.

Baraka_Guru

I don't want to have a child just to earn some kind of arbitrary license to determine whether it's ever okay to slap one.

I don't have to have a child to know that there is a good chance that inflicting pain on a child could have long-term consequences.

By that same logic, I don't think parents need a Ph.D. in child psychology before they should formulate an opinion on the matter.

By that same logic, I don't think that parents should have no say whether there should be corporal punishment in schools simply because "they don't know what it's like being a teacher."

By that same logic, I don't think I need to marry before suggesting that caning your wife as a form of punishment is wrong.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think being too close to a matter can cloud your judgement.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

RogueGypsy

I think maybe you should read a little slower and not jump on the hate train so fast. No where did I say inflicting pain is necessary in child rearing. If you are hitting a child hard enough to inflict actual pain, you have some anger issues. Get help.

Nor did I allude to parents needing a Ph.D in child psychology, in fact, I stated that I believe it takes a village to raise a child. Not a single self entitled asshat full of other peoples ideas and none of his own.

For a well behaved, respectful child, why would there be a need for corporal punishment in schools. The reason we could use it now, is precisely because there is no discipline at home.

What the fuck does caning your wife have to do with anything? I mean, if she's into that kinda thing, go for it. But wait, weren't we talking about children?

Being to close to a subject is one reason, among many, that so called Experts often have their heads up their asses and don't know it. They spend so much time in the theory of a subject, that practical knowledge becomes a distant memory. Then the publisher calls to remind of a deadline and all bets are off.


Really, you're an intelligent human being, your post was beneath you.



..
..

__________________
Methods, application and intensity of application vary by the individual. All legal wavers must be signed before 'treatment' begins. Self 'Medicating' is not recommend. However, if necessary, it is best to have an 'assistant' or 'soft landing zone' nearby. Any and all legal issues resulting from improperly applied techniques should be forwarded to: Dewy, Cheatum & Howe, Intercourse, PA 17534. Attn: Anonymous.

Plan9

What Baraka said. And that moderation thing. In a big sandwich.

I'm tired of the "I'm a parent, that makes me special" crap.

Congratulations on Biology 101. You figured out the penis/vagina.

Reproduction doesn't give you the civilian equiv of a Ranger tab.

I'm also tired of the "kids are different/special" philosophy.

Kids are like expensive pets that can learn to do more expensive tricks.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Baraka_Guru

You're presuming that my post was a direct and enclosed response to yours. It was only one of many factors.

Don't assume too much.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot