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Old 02-12-2004, 08:22 AM   #1 (permalink)
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The ANZAC spirit will live forever

This will be front page news here in a few hours and if the credibility of the report holds true then everything that has been done by those that had the fucking guts to stand up and be counted will have been in vain.

I sincerely hope that this amounts to nothing more than a report taken out of context but for this moment in time I cannot restrain my disgust at yet another erosion of value.






[COLOR=sky blue]LINK TO STORY [/COLOR]

Anzac fury at Gallipoli fee plan
February 13, 2004

YOUNG Australians wishing to offer their respects to the Anzacs may have to pay for the privilege, under plans by the Turkish Government to cash in on Gallipoli.

Under plans by the Turkish Government, visitors to the Gallipoli battlefields will be charged an admission fee, with tickets to go on sale as early as Anzac Day this year.

This would let the Turkish Government capitalise on the tourism boom to Gallipoli, where tens of thousands of Australians make the pilgrimage to pay tribute to hero Diggers.

Although it has not been announced publicly yet, Turkey plans an admission fee to the Gelibolu Historical National Park, which encompasses Anzac Cove, the British sectors of Suvla Bay and Cape Helles and all of the Allied cemeteries on the Gallipoli Peninsula.

Gelibolu Historical National Park regional head Ayhan Can confirmed the entrance fee plan to The Daily Telegraph.

"Yes, we will introduce an entrance fee to the national park. This will include all services in one ticket," he said as work began on the entrance gate.

Construction began last Sunday and is expected to be completed next month.

The Daily Telegraph can reveal that the Turkish Parliament already has passed a law authorising the charging of admission fees to the national park.

Further legislation, which proposes spending up to $15 million to upgrade facilities and build new monuments, has stalled in the Parliament, in part due to opposition objections to government plans to lift the requirement for projects to be open to tender.

The project could include a light rail, sound and light show, restaurant and cinema -- prompting an attack from an honoured Turkish historian who warns the site risks becoming "Disneyland".

The revelations also have prompted an urgent investigation from the Federal Government to determine exactly how far advanced the Turkish plans are. Mr Can said that he did not see why charging for admission to the park or the cemeteries would upset foreign visitors or their governments.

"If there is an international problem, I am sure that our foreign ministry will sort it out," he said.

The head of Turkey's National Park Directorate, Mustafa Yalinkilic, stressed that a final ruling on charging admission fees to the battlefield area was yet to been taken.

"There are no regulations on this; the question is still under discussion," Mr Yalinkilic said.

However, regulations or not, construction of an entrance gate on the road leading to Anzac Cove began last Sunday.

The work is scheduled to be completed by March 18, the day Turkey commemorates the defeat of the Allied fleet in its attempt to force its way through to Istanbul in 1915.

The plans have incensed local residents, who see the move as an attempt to turn the site of one of the World War I's most famous campaigns into a money-making venture for the country.

One of those opposed to the government's plans is Kenan Celik, a leading Turkish expert on the Gallipoli campaign, who was awarded the Order of Australia in 2001 for his services to Australian history.

"This plan is ridiculous," Mr Celik said. "This area is not like other national parks. This is an open museum, a cemetery.

"So many people who have lost relatives come here. To be asked to pay to see where their ancestors are buried is obscene. The basic idea is just to make money."

Another angered by the proposals is Yuksel Akgul, owner of the Liman Restaurant in Eceabat, the town nearest Anzac Cove.

"We call those who died defending our land martyrs, and it is an honour to visit to the graves of these people we know who died to save our country. As Muslims, all we can do is to pray for them and those who died from other countries.

"But they even want to stop us doing this by charging money."

Park officials argue they would not be charging admission to the cemeteries but to the national park as a whole.

However, without the battlefields, cemeteries and memorials, it is unlikely there would be a national park on the Gallipoli Peninsula.

Nor would thousands of Australians and New Zealanders, the backbone of the local tourism industry, make their way there annually.

Turkey's plans to sell tickets to the battlefield also run contrary to the peace treaty between the Allies and Turkey, which declared that there be free access to the cemeteries and memorials at all times.

However, Ibrahim Kosdere, who represents the region in the national parliament and who sponsored the new bill on developing the park, dismisses the Lausanne Treaty of 1923.

"Why should we ask permission from the occupying forces for our plans?" he said. "The National Park design is ours and is within the national borders we have drawn."

Mr Kosdere also said that the levying of an admission fee to the battlefields would increase people's appreciation of the site.

"What is free of charge has no value to it, believe me. Even bread has a price," he said.

The state plans to use at least part of its slice of the loaf from ticket sales to upgrade the roads and other facilities in the region.

However, the move is part of a wider plan to make the park self-funding and to promote tourism.

Seeking to cash in on the growing domestic tourism market, the National Park Authority has a number of proposals on the drawing board. Among the suggestions are building a light rail system along Anzac Cove and a sound and light show.

For Mr Celik, who has worked as a guide on the battlefields for 25 years, such theme park attractions are a desecration.

"They think that Gallipoli is like any other national park, but it is completely different," he said. "It is not Disneyland. Yes, they should protect the battlefield areas but even to call this a national park is wrong.

"This is sacred ground to Turkey, to Australia and New Zealand."

The Daily Telegraph
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Old 02-12-2004, 12:12 PM   #2 (permalink)
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That's seriously weak... after paying all the taxes to enter the country, not to mention "tourist dollars" on local goods, they want to make even MORE money off Aussie/Kiwi tourists ?

That's just messed up.

Now, I wasn't born in NZ, but what can be seen easily on ANZAC day is how sacred the open wound of Gallipoli is to the public.

However, if the fee was small, and the proceeds went to benefit relatives of ANZACs who died there (fat chance that will happen ) then I wouldn't mind. But as it stands right now, seems to me like the government is getting rich off the dead.
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Old 02-12-2004, 12:21 PM   #3 (permalink)
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There seems to be conflicting opinions on how the money is to be used. If it's for profit, it's an obscene gesture on their part. On the other hand, if the money will be used to mantain the facility and improve the roads and trails, I don't see a problem.

I once paid a not-insignificant fee to see the U.S.S. Arizona Memorial at Pearl Harbor, and I will gladly do so again the next time I visit Hawaii.

I mean - someone's got to pay for the maintenance of the place, right?

I'd be interested to know if other famous battlefields / cemeteries like Gettysburg, Little Big Horn, Normandy, etc. charge fees. Anyone?
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Old 02-12-2004, 05:48 PM   #4 (permalink)
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this is utterly disgraceful.
it sounds as though it is a profit-making deal for the Turkish Government. i can't imagine there being a problem in asking the governments of Australia and New Zealand for help in the upkeep costs (which is probably the current system anyway).


Quote:

However, Ibrahim Kosdere, who represents the region in the national parliament and who sponsored the new bill on developing the park, dismisses the Lausanne Treaty of 1923.

"Why should we ask permission from the occupying forces for our plans?" he said. "The National Park design is ours and is within the national borders we have drawn."

Mr Kosdere also said that the levying of an admission fee to the battlefields would increase people's appreciation of the site.

"What is free of charge has no value to it, believe me. Even bread has a price," he said.

"what is free of charge has no value to it..."

he cannot be serious. he's talking about the mass grave of thousands of his own countrymen, as well as thousands of ANZACs.

this is sickening.
this whole thing is sickening.
what a disgraceful lack of respect.
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Old 02-13-2004, 05:06 AM   #5 (permalink)
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UPDATE

After much uproar here in Australia today the government has been given assurance by the Turkish government that no fee will be implemented.
This follows outrage expressed also by members of the Turkish community living here as well.

It is a passionate subject here and was nipped VERY quickly in the bud.

The Daily Telegraph's reaction tomorrow will be interesting.
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Old 02-13-2004, 05:33 AM   #6 (permalink)
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will the germans charge jews to visit holocust sites to pay repect, this type of thing send me into a rage.

Profit through people emotion ( part form pay fo view porn). The fact that it is occuring on a international scale is outragous.

The brave ANZAC fought and died for freedom, and not just for indivdual freedom, this is something that should be a goal that all countries of the world should agree on esp if they are in the U.N.


It is good to see your govt has the bo**ocks to step on such rubbish.



SOme of the best stuff he has said

We do not know this Australian's name and we never will.

We do not know his rank or his battalion. We do not know where he was born, nor precisely how and when he died. We do not know where in Australia he had made his home or when he left it for the battlefields of Europe. We do not know his age or his circumstances whether he was from the city or the bush; what occupation he left to become a soldier; what religion, if he had a religion; if he was married or single. We do not know who loved him or whom he loved. If he had children we do not know who they are. His family is lost to us as he was lost to them. We will never know who this Australian was.

Yet he has always been among those whom we have honoured. We know that he was one of the 45,000 Australians who died on the Western Front. One of the 416,000 Australians who volunteered for service in the First World War. One of the 324,000 Australians who served overseas in that war and one of the 60,000 Australians who died on foreign soil. One of the 100,000 Australians who have died in wars this century.

He is all of them. And he is one of us.

This Australia and the Australia he knew are like foreign countries. The tide of events since he died has been so dramatic, so vast and all consuming, a world has been created beyond the reach of his imagination.

He may have been one of those who believed that the Great War would be an adventure too grand to miss. He may have felt that he would never live down the shame of not going. But the chances are he went for no other reason than that he believed it was the duty he owed his country and his King.

Because the Great War was a mad, brutal, awful struggle, distinguished more often than not by military and political incompetence; because the waste of human life was so terrible that some said victory was scarcely discernible from defeat; and because the war which was supposed to end all wars in fact sowed the seeds of a second even more terrible war we might think this Unknown Soldier died in vain.

But, in honouring our war dead, as we always have and as we do today, we declare that this is not true. For out of the war came a lesson which transcended the horror and tragedy and the inexcusable folly. It was a lesson about ordinary people and the lesson was that they were not ordinary. On all sides they were the heroes of that war; not the generals and the politicians but the soldiers and sailors and nurses those who taught us to endure hardship, to show courage, to be bold as well as resilient, to believe in ourselves, to stick together.

The Unknown Australian Soldier whom we are interring today was one of those who, by his deeds, proved that real nobility and grandeur belongs, not to empires and nations, but to the people on whom they, in the last resort, always depend.

That is surely at the heart of the ANZAC story, the Australian legend which emerged from the war. It is a legend not of sweeping military victories so much as triumphs against the odds, of courage and ingenuity in adversity. It is a legend of free and independent spirits whose discipline derived less from military formalities and customs than from the bonds of mateship and the demands of necessity. It is a democratic tradition, the tradition in which Australians have gone to war ever since.

This Unknown Australian is not interred here to glorify war over peace; or to assert a soldier's character above a civilian's; or one race or one nation or one religion above another; or men above women; or the war in which he fought and died above any other war; or one generation above any that has been or will come later.

The Unknown Soldier honours the memory of all those men and women who laid down their lives for Australia. His tomb is a reminder of what we have lost in war and what we have gained.

We have lost more than 100,000 lives, and with them all their love of this country and all their hope and energy.

We have gained a legend: a story of bravery and sacrifice and, with it, a deeper faith in ourselves and our democracy, and a deeper understanding of what it means to be Australian.

It is not too much to hope, therefore, that this Unknown Australian Soldier might continue to serve his country - he might enshrine a nation's love of peace and remind us that, in the sacrifice of the men and women whose names are recorded here, there is faith enough for all of us.

The Hon. P. J. Keating MP
Prime Minister of Australia

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Old 02-13-2004, 06:53 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by cchris
UPDATE

After much uproar here in Australia today the government has been given assurance by the Turkish government that no fee will be implemented.

glad to hear that it was taken care of so quickly.

if they were to charge i think they would loose all respect from the different nations involved with the war (hope so anyway).

ANZAC's, lest we forget.
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Old 02-13-2004, 12:19 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by yournamehere
There seems to be conflicting opinions on how the money is to be used. If it's for profit, it's an obscene gesture on their part. On the other hand, if the money will be used to mantain the facility and improve the roads and trails, I don't see a problem.

I once paid a not-insignificant fee to see the U.S.S. Arizona Memorial at Pearl Harbor, and I will gladly do so again the next time I visit Hawaii.

I mean - someone's got to pay for the maintenance of the place, right?

I'd be interested to know if other famous battlefields / cemeteries like Gettysburg, Little Big Horn, Normandy, etc. charge fees. Anyone?
Exactly my sentiments.

I can't speak for the others, but I paid admission to the Little Bighorn Battlefield (it's under the US Park Service), the same way I paid to get into the Grand Canyon, Mount Rushmore, etc.

If it's for maintenance, then it's reasonable.
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Old 02-13-2004, 01:44 PM   #9 (permalink)
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The Gallipoli Myth

Let me get some things clear, before proceeding.

1) I live in Australia and love this country.
2) I married an Australian and once the country becomes a republic with an elected President, rather than Queen Elizabeth, as head of state, I shall gladly adopt Australian citizenship.
3) I lost three great-uncles in the First World War (obviously before I was born, but you know what I mean).

Australia, and to a lesser degree New Zealand, has built the whole Gallipoli myth up to dizzying heights. For example, how many Aussies here know that the British lost approximately FIVE TIMES as many troops as Australia? How many of you knew the French experienced an equal number of casualties as the Australians?

I recommend some of you revisionists read this article from the Sydney Morning Herald (April 22, 2002). http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/...020708943.html
Some of it may surprise you. You may also want to read this essay: http://www.pa.ash.org.au/afssse/simp...vindin2003.htm

I'm not knocking the so-called ANZAC Spirit (though, to be honest, Johnnie Howard has done a lot to damage it in my opinion), but I'm just a bit tired of hearing how Australia and NZ were butchered more than any other nation, or commanded by bungling British officers, or displayed more herorism than any other nation at that battle. It's simply not true.

History, and not histrionics, is what we should concentrate on.

Mr Mephisto
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Old 02-13-2004, 03:36 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I don't remember ever hearing that the ANZACS suffered the most casualties.

I think Gallipoli is a day of rememberance for a largely pointless campaign where a significant percetange of soldiers died from two small nations in the south pacific. To me ANZAC day re-enforces the idea that the troops that were sent to Turkey did not die in vain.
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Old 02-13-2004, 03:45 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Well, I can only refer you to the story the SMH ran. If they thought it notable enough to "dispell" 10 myths of Gallipoli, it must show that at least some people have a slanted view of the battle.

Once again, I'm not knocking the ANZAC vets or the commemorative spirit; just the romanticization of the whole thing.

I think you hit the nail on the head myself. ANZAC Day is special because it is about how "two small nations in the South Pacific" came of age, experienced shocking casualities in a minor battle and "lost their innocence"...

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Old 02-13-2004, 10:15 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mr Mephisto
The Gallipoli Myth

Let me get some things clear, before proceeding.

1) I live in Australia and love this country.
2) I married an Australian and once the country becomes a republic with an elected President, rather than Queen Elizabeth, as head of state, I shall gladly adopt Australian citizenship.
3) I lost three great-uncles in the First World War (obviously before I was born, but you know what I mean).

Mr Mephisto

Your second point is interesting.

It is indeed a special place that can accomodate people that want the benefits but can't accept the wish of the people.
I take it that you have a dislike to the concept of a constitutional monarchy?
I'm not that fussed with it either,but the "Republican" movement can gloat all they like at their efforts to wear down our aging and indeed very proud population.

Cop the tip.

We will become a republic one day,but the timeline is for the people to decide at their own pace and not by way of the constant hammering of the republican movement.

With regards to your third point it is a very proud history for you and something to cherish.

My father went to Darwin and served with the "Ack Ack" directly after the first wave of Japanese bombings in WW2 and his diary that I still have with me indicates a very different picture of how many bombing raids were unleashed on the top end and how close we really came to being invaded.
It will remain with me as something that I choose not to pursue at this time.


Quote:
Originally posted by Mr Mephisto
The Gallipoli Myth

Australia, and to a lesser degree New Zealand, has built the whole Gallipoli myth up to dizzying heights. For example, how many Aussies here know that the British lost approximately FIVE TIMES as many troops as Australia? How many of you knew the French experienced an equal number of casualties as the Australians?

Mr Mephisto

Alec Campbell was only 16 when he argued with his parents to allow him to enrol with the Anzacs.

The youngest (Australian) soldier to die at Gallipoli however was James Martin.

He was 14.

Like our soldiers,our Country was very young too.

At the time,by proportion,casualties were 65% of those who enlisted.
Now even if this is because they just didn't know any better or they were just (dare I say it) fodder,it says plenty about the courage shown by those that must have known that survival here was going to be very limited.

In other words,they just kept "doing the doing".

Quote:
Originally posted by Mr Mephisto
The Gallipoli Myth



I'm not knocking the so-called ANZAC Spirit (though, to be honest, Johnnie Howard has done a lot to damage it in my opinion), but I'm just a bit tired of hearing how Australia and NZ were butchered more than any other nation, or commanded by bungling British officers, or displayed more herorism than any other nation at that battle. It's simply not true.

History, and not histrionics, is what we should concentrate on.

Mr Mephisto

And Mr Mephisto,I am not going to get into a slanging match with you on this subject and by no means is this a personal attack because I respect your opinion,but to truly understand about who we are as a nation and why we hold the ANZAC tradition to such lofty heights we must understand that a good number of those that served there were just children.
Other Countries involved have similar tales but the issue at hand is important to me.

May I suggest that you get your citizenship and vote for change.


History tells us that if you want it to happen then one must make it happen.
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Old 02-15-2004, 10:14 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by cchris
It is indeed a special place that can accomodate people that want the benefits but can't accept the wish of the people.
I'm not sure I understand this comment, other than it may be sarcasm?

I choose not to become a citizen of a country with Queen Elizabeth as the Head of State. What's your point?

Quote:
I take it that you have a dislike to the concept of a constitutional monarchy?
I most certainly do. If you feel that, in the modern world, there's a place for Kings and Queens, Governor's General and unelected Heads of State, then that's your perogative. I believe that day is gone and I believe in a full and true democratic nation.

Quote:
I'm not that fussed with it either,but the "Republican" movement can gloat all they like at their efforts to wear down our aging and indeed very proud population.
I'm unaware of any "gloating" on the part of the so-called Republican movement. I certainly believe that if the Howard Government had chosen a republican model based upon a President elected by the people, rather than appointed by the House of Parliament (with all the associated accusations of cronyism), then the recent referendum would have passed. You must remember that a lot of people voted against the proposal, simply because they were disgusted by the cynical attempt of the Howard Government to retain the ability, vested in the few members of Parliament, to appoint the Head of State.

That kinda misses the wholepoint, don't you think?

Quote:
Cop the tip.
I have no idea what this means.

Quote:
We will become a republic one day,but the timeline is for the people to decide at their own pace and not by way of the constant hammering of the republican movement.
Constant hammering? It's a bit of a dead debate in Australia these days. I'm sure once Labour gets into power they will quietly table it for later consideration. But it will happen some day.

Quote:
With regards to your third point it is a very proud history for you and something to cherish.
I'm not sure if cherish is the right word, but thank you for the sentiment.

Quote:
Alec Campbell was only 16 when he argued with his parents to allow him to enrol with the Anzacs.

The youngest (Australian) soldier to die at Gallipoli however was James Martin. He was 14.

Like our soldiers,our Country was very young too.
This is all very poignant, but it still doesn't alter the fact that the Gallipoli campaign has attained mythic proportions in the Australian pysche. As I said in an earlier post, perhaps this is because the casualties were so unexpected, and that it was the first real war where Australia was involved (the 1905 Boer War notwithstanding). But as the Sydney Morning Herald article points out, there are quite a few myths involved.

Quote:
At the time,by proportion,casualties were 65% of those who enlisted.
Now even if this is because they just didn't know any better or they were just (dare I say it) fodder,it says plenty about the courage shown by those that must have known that survival here was going to be very limited.

In other words,they just kept "doing the doing".
As did countless British, German, Turkish and French soldiers. It truly was a terrible war.

Quote:
And Mr Mephisto,I am not going to get into a slanging match with you on this subject and by no means is this a personal attack because I respect your opinion,but to truly understand about who we are as a nation and why we hold the ANZAC tradition to such lofty heights we must understand that a good number of those that served there were just children.
Slanging match? Where on Earth did you get that idea?

A good number of those that served on every side were children. France effectively lost an ENTIRE generation of men. The proportion of Australian casualties was high, but by no means did Australia suffer the worst in World War One. As I said above, it was (and is) important to Australia because it can be considered a "defining" moment in your history. But Gallipoli was not a wholly Australian affair, nor did Australia lose the most men.

There are 8709 Australians buried on the Gallipoli Peninsula, 46,000 British soldiers and 250,000 Turks. Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, a colonel in the battle and later the Turkish President, famously recited the following words in 1934 (now part of the Ari Burnu memorial)

"Those heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives.... are now lying in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehemets to us where they lie side by side here in this country of ours ... having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well."

Quote:
Other Countries involved have similar tales but the issue at hand is important to me.
All life is sacred and no one is of greater import than any other. I guess that's the basis of my whole point.

Quote:
May I suggest that you get your citizenship and vote for change.
You certainly may. But I choose not to become a subject of the British crown. Call me old fashioned, but my grand-father and great uncle fought for Irish freedom, just so I could call myself a citizen and not the subject of a foreign King or Queen; and that still means something to me.

:-)

Mr Mephisto

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Old 02-16-2004, 07:16 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mr Mephisto



I have no idea what this means.


Mr Mephisto

Yeah points taken but.

Look it up in your funkandwagnalls


My way of conveying an emotion in regards to loving one's country is clearly different to your own,and rather than to go into a quote-a-thon.........................

I will say this.


What about mythic proportions of the spoken word and the ability to redress?


I too have Irish blood.


Put it this way.


I've copped the tip and understand where your coming from.

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Old 02-16-2004, 10:27 AM   #15 (permalink)
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All statistics aside on how many actually died. I'm an American, but have studdied this battle in depth.

The reason it was such a big deal to Australia was not the numbers that died, but the percentage of the entire Australian population. The French could lose a couple thousand and not wince, while Australia lost the majority of its entire army... in one battle.

I wont go into depth why the battle didnt work to the allied hands, I could talk all day.

The one thing I feel obligated to mension is the lessons learned. Those that died in this battle caught the attention of the entire world, everyone analized where it went wronge, especially the US. So that when the now hallowed beaches of Normandy, Guadalcanal, Okinowa, Iwo Jima, and the dozens of other beaches taken with extreamly heavy casualties we did not faulter. So dont be quick to write off the faults in numbers, those are inconsiquencial when it comes to the impact it had.
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Old 02-17-2004, 05:13 PM   #16 (permalink)
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SIGH

I think you are both (Seaver and cchris) missing my point.

I'm NOT knocking the fact that Australia reveres its war dead, especially those who fell at Gallipoli.

What I AM saying is that many Australians believe things, about Gallipoli, that are simply untrue.

And now I find myself in the position of defending and clarifying my statements; and it makes me look like I'm anti-Australian, or even worse anti-veteran!

All I ask is that you realize that a "Gallipoli myth" has grown up in Australia (not my terms, but those of the Sydney Morning Herald), and that many Australians believe that myth to be fact.

Mr Mephisto
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