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Old 02-20-2004, 01:38 PM   #1 (permalink)
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WAKE UP CALL!

It's time to set some things straight and to provide clarity. So, this message is going to be as frank and clear as possible. It's time for the general TFP populace to WAKE UP!

I've seen a disturbing trend around here in some people's posts that has gone beyond the point where I just roll my eyes and now I'm actually getting pretty annoyed at it. So, that's what I'm here for – to wake you up.

What are you waking up from? The world of speculation, and paranoia, and doubt. It's time to leave that place, WAKE UP, and come back to where the other half of TFP resides: the world of rational thought, sensible understanding, and trust in leadership.

It's no longer funny how many times I've seen comments to the effect of "if I post something negative I might get banned.” Think about this for a second. Just sit, and think. Release yourself from your need to fight "The Establishment" and think rationally. Do you think we expect everyone to agree with each other? Or even to agree with us? Think about this. If we wanted everyone to always agree with each other, would we have created a Tilted Politics section? If we wanted everyone to agree with each other would we have created a Tilted Philosophy section? If we expected everyone to agree with each other, would we have mods with political views ranging from far left to far right?

Next time you think you're going to be banned for saying something negative, head on over into Tilted Politics. Look at all the disagreement in there and then look at how many of them don't have "banned" underneath their name.

Do you think I, and other mods, got to be where we are by blindly agreeing with the way the site is run? Of course not! When we saw something we thought could be better we did something POSITIVE about it! We took action and we let our voices be heard! We conversed with site leadership in private and courteous ways when we had an issue with something, and we realized that it's not worth it to get upset if, after providing our courteous thoughts, they are not agreed with.

PEOPLE HAVE NEVER BEEN AND WILL NEVER BE BANNED FOR SIMPLY DISAGREEING!

What you have to realize - and accept - is you do not know everything. In fact, 90% of the time someone is banned I'd venture to say no matter how much you think you know, you have no clue why they were banned. You don't know how many times they were graciously not given official warnings when a post had to be edited or removed. You don't know how many PM's were sent back and forth in an effort to help them fix their ways. And you don't know what kinds of rude things may have been said in those PM's that may have led up to their banning. Sometimes people are incapable of accepting a polite request or recommendation and, instead, lash out.

But still, there are those people who, looking back on their posts, seem to have done nothing wrong, or maybe only borderline comments. This is yet another place where the rational realization that you don't know the whole story comes into play. Almost all the time, if a post warrants a banning, it's deleted. So, you'll almost NEVER find the post that caused a person's banning. Not to mention the seemingly “innocent” rookies that are found to be banned members returning to cause trouble because they can't move on. On top of it, why in the world would we ban new members mercilessly just for asking questions? That's a *great* way to build membership But, if you're processing thoughts in the world of paranoia and of the "evil Establishment" then it's pretty easy to conclude that we ban people "because we feel like it." It's easy to not think about how that makes no sense to do and to not think that maybe you don't know the whole story.

So, I'll say it again:
YOU WILL NOT BE BANNED FOR DISAGREEING OR BEING CONTROVERSIAL!

If you don't like how something is being done or the direction something is headed in, use PM's to communicate that! Don't lash out in threads or in journals – that's counter-productive. Send us a calm and courteous PM explaining your thoughts and supporting your thoughts with the reasoning behind them. Provide evidence if you will. If you think a moderator was wrong in something, don't respond to their PM rudely, and if you can't work it out, PM an admin about it.

Still, what one must ultimately acknowledge here is that while you may disagree, and while you may present your disagreement in a private and courteous fashion, this is not your site and it is not a democracy. So, don't be upset just because all of your disagreements and suggestions you may PM us with aren't agreed with.

You have a choice to make. You can either continue to live your TFP existence in fear, in which case I'd recommend that you just leave because you're not going to enjoy your time here anymore anyway, or you can realize that just because you don't understand why someone was banned, that does not mean they were banned unjustly.

Almost all of the mods here started out as rookies at one point or another. We were all regular users like you. We want *more* friends and we want *more* members for TFP. Why the hell would we ban people just because they disagreed with us? If we all did that, there would be no users left! Hell, some mods would ban other mods even! So, let's WAKE UP and stop being paranoid. I believe you all have common sense and are capable of posting reasonably, and if you step over the line, we'll let you know, and then you'll know what not to do in the future. YOU WON'T BE BANNED JUST FOR DISAGREEING.
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Old 02-20-2004, 01:47 PM   #2 (permalink)
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if everyone would let go of their misconceptions. then they would realize that this is the safe harbor in which to be free from everything.
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Old 02-20-2004, 02:23 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Thank you for your elaboration on this subject Secret, I do feel there needs to be a definitive thread about it.

Personally there have been many a times when I have feared to post because of the possible consequences. Although, thinking back I can't remember seeing 'banned' members that didn't really deserve it (by trolling and just plain asking for it). I believe I speak for everyone, however, that we are reluctant to post more controversial posts simply because we love this place so much.

I would be seriously pissed if I were to be banned and lost my status, simply registering again wouldn't restore that.
Now I am not hesitant to voice my disagreement on a subject, I know that the most I'll ever get is a rebuke. However disagreement on TFP and it's rules itself is quite another matter entirely. I have been critical before and paid for it by incurring the wrath of the mods and would therefor hesitate to do so again. This very post in fact is starting to seem pretty risky.

While I agree you can just send a PM to a mod, I know for a fact that mods will simply say 'no' or 'no, because...'and leave it at that. This does come over mightily authoritarian and can easily intimidate anyone from refraining to posting a critical comment at all.

Also, when you have it out in the open you can see by the responses, especially by newbies and Crazy's who seem to mind being 'politically correct' less than the rest of us, if you are alone on this issue. PMing a Mod may result in one "No", but several "what the hell are you talking about?" comments can be quite a lot more convincing as you can be surer that the opinions are less based on personal feelings.

Also I don't agree with removing offending posts, editing to remove particularly filthy language and such, yes, but I would much rather see examples of why a person got banned instead of constantly wondering why all of a sudden a thread or post disappears. Simply deleting offending posts will only lead to more uncertainty, I mean the ones I see are only the worst, I'm not crazy enough to post anything near that ignorant but where is the border?

Anyone noticed I am in love with fancy words tonite? I really feel I should've included a henceforth somewhere.
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Old 02-20-2004, 03:10 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Old 02-20-2004, 03:15 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Well, I feel better. No, that wasn't sarcasm -- I really do.

I've been one of the paranoid ones, but am less so now. I think the recent "hot topic" discussion over the subject matter just brought some feelings more to the surface, and suddenly people who weren't feeling paranoid before, began feeling so. B'sides, it seems to be instinctive to feel the need to "fight the power".

As for disagreements and controversy, my only concern really was with posting questions about the powers that be's decisions. Not necessarily on bans, although seeing what seemed like respected members get kicked made me wary; obviously, as SM has now underlined it, there's always more to the story.

I guess we just need to stop being oversensitive and overly cautious.

Quote:
Originally posted by RelaX
Anyone noticed I am in love with fancy words tonite? I really feel I should've included a henceforth somewhere.
Hey, at least you didn't use "ergo", which has become almost everyone's favourite on the Internet ever since Matrix Reloaded came out.

/edited to be on-topic. carry on.
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Old 02-20-2004, 03:22 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Prince
Hey, at least you didn't use "ergo", which has become almost everyone's favourite on the Internet ever since Matrix Reloaded came out.
ergo my not using ergo
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Old 02-20-2004, 03:33 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Just how many threads about this are really needed? :/
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Old 02-20-2004, 03:44 PM   #8 (permalink)
::::::::::::::::::::::::: :.
 
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i dunno... blah... haven't been here long enough to have any clue of the real inner dynamics here, i don't have an irc client so i don't get in on the chat dynamics, i don't have a journal & honestly have only read a very few journal entries only when they've been referenced somewhere here on tfp. basically, i don't know most of you very well if at all, but i enjoy posts by several you in the forums i frequent.

anyway... my 2 unsolicited cents...
and merely a suggestion...
i think that if there was a list of the banned users, banned date & a concise clear 1-5 word small indication for why the ban then a lot of these kinds of threads wouldn't exist.

no one likes unresolved mystery. no likes deleted posts or threads. no one likes seeing people whose posts they've enjoyed being banned.

it is reasonable to expect folks to want explanation. explicit gory details are not necessary. just some little tidbit to help stop the speculation, rumors & stupid wtf threads.

ie. userladedah: banned: reason: disgruntled

ie. userladedah: banned: reason: legal issues

ie. userladedah: banned: reason: inappropriate pics

ie. userladedah: banned: reason: see this (closed) thread

etc. better short word reasons obviously could be found.
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Old 02-20-2004, 03:48 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Why? No offense, but it's none of our damn business, and could only serve to further arguments (well gee I didn't EVER see userladedah posting inappropriate pics. You're just on a witchhunt. Just because we're paranoid doesn't mean the mods aren't out to get us. blah blah blah)

Frankly, if users would just shut up and go about THEIR business rather than worrying about everyone else's, we wouldn't have these soap opera flareups.
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Old 02-20-2004, 03:54 PM   #10 (permalink)
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true. it's not any of "our damn business", but people tend to appreciate explanations & seek closure.

i hate politics. especially board/forum politics.

i'll just miss a few who are gone & i have no idea WHY they are suddenly gone...
i'll just blindly go post some pictures or play some games in nonsense now. peace out cub scout.
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Old 02-20-2004, 04:26 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: WAKE UP CALL!

Quote:
Originally posted by SecretMethod70

So, I'll say it again:
YOU WILL NOT BE BANNED FOR DISAGREEING OR BEING CONTROVERSIAL!


Ok I'd like to ask if I can repost a couple threads that were removed for controversial content then. I'm really asking not trolling. I will treat the threads with the delicacy the subjects deserve but if this is true I would like a chance for those threads to live at this forum. I'd like to think my posts will show me to not be a troll but I'd like to bring some more hard-edged discussions here like I do at other, less well controlled forums. I respect the control the this forum has for crap posts and flames and I'd love the TFP's take on certain subjects. Given your words above I would assume this is ok if done properly?
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Old 02-20-2004, 04:29 PM   #12 (permalink)
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First, all the 'other' threads regarding this crap have been closed.

We've discussed the issue as a staff and agreed that a banned user list is not necessary. There's a line between good communication and a politics peepshow. If you want to know why someone was banned, send me a PM. I think those who have inquired have come away feeling satisfied with what they have been given.

(Prince, about the webcam thing, I get a lot of requests, but I only put up users who a) I know personally or b) have been around a while and can be trusted. You sent me your request when you were fairly new. As far as not getting back to you... my private message count is well above 1000, and that's after clearing it out. Sometimes I read a PM, decide to come back to it, and it gets burried. So, sorry.)
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Old 02-20-2004, 04:51 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Don't want to drag the subject matter on, just wanted to thank Halx for the clarification, I appreciate it, and express my curiosity towards what "hard-edged" topics Holo plans on bringing forth. Given the diversity of TFP I figure almost anything goes as long as it's mostly legal and not overly offensive.
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Old 02-20-2004, 06:20 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Prince
...Given the diversity of TFP I figure almost anything goes as long as it's mostly legal and not overly offensive.
<i>mostly legal</i>

that's not any terminology i want to hear.
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Old 02-20-2004, 06:22 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Thank you. Your post was quite informative.
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Old 02-20-2004, 06:23 PM   #16 (permalink)
::::::::::::::::::::::::: :.
 
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thank you for your sarcasm.
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Old 02-20-2004, 06:40 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Well, look. This will be my last word on the subject.

If this is in any way connected to my thread about intolerance, all I have to say is that I was simply using my own thoughts and feelings to start a wider discussion about the theme. I thought that was how a community like this worked, contemplation of what they see around them. It wasn't the result of paranoia, or subversion, or anything of the kind. I appreciate your reasons for closing it, and I do not protest.

That's all.
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Old 02-20-2004, 09:38 PM   #18 (permalink)
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SM70,
Thanks for clearing up a few issues I had. I had never asked them before but you took care of them quite nicely.

I used to post quite often in the Politics section when it was first offered. I stopped going by there because I became cautious and started being careful on what I wanted to say. I started second guessing myself on what to say because of the fear of being banned. So I stopped going.

Now I see that I was wrong in not going and will go back to the Politics and post what I believe is relavant.

I hope this cleared up some of the paranoia going around.

Quote:
Originally posted by bernadette
i think that if there was a list of the banned users, banned date & a concise clear 1-5 word small indication for why the ban then a lot of these kinds of threads wouldn't exist.

no one likes unresolved mystery. no likes deleted posts or threads. no one likes seeing people whose posts they've enjoyed being banned.

it is reasonable to expect folks to want explanation. explicit gory details are not necessary. just some little tidbit to help stop the speculation, rumors & stupid wtf threads.

ie. userladedah: banned: reason: disgruntled

ie. userladedah: banned: reason: legal issues

ie. userladedah: banned: reason: inappropriate pics

ie. userladedah: banned: reason: see this (closed) thread

etc. better short word reasons obviously could be found.
As for Bernadette's suggestion, I remember that along time ago there was an incident on someone being banned because he started being for being fresh and rude with the female members. Halx reprinted all the messges the banned person wrote and what her respondses to him were. She tried being curtious but to no avail. Halx took care of the situation right away. He gave his reasons on what he did wrong and what he expected the rest of the members should act like.

I not saying going this far but I think Bernadette's suggestion can be tried on trial basis to see if it works. I know its a lot more work for the admins and mods but I think it would be worth giving it a try.

Glad
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Old 02-20-2004, 09:43 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by bernadette
thank you for your sarcasm.
I ah. . . think Shokan was talking to Halx, not being sarcastic to you.
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Old 02-20-2004, 09:54 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by bernadette
<i>mostly legal</i>

that's not any terminology i want to hear.
Well, regardless of what you want to hear, we discuss things here such as having sex on a WalMart parking lot - and it's fine. That stuff is what I consider "mostly legal". It's illegal (public indecency) but it's also far from being the worst of crimes. Geez.

Quote:
Originally posted by Glad-I-Ate-Her
I not saying going this far but I think Bernadette's suggestion can be tried on trial basis to see if it works. I know its a lot more work for the admins and mods but I think it would be worth giving it a try.
It's not very practical, but in some cases it might provide ppl with a good example of what crosses the line. It seems there've been many of us as of late who have been unclear on where the line's drawn.
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Old 02-20-2004, 11:06 PM   #21 (permalink)
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ok prince. i just don't want to be involved with a board that is about <i>mostly legal</i> matters & i haven't yet noticed a reason to be concerned about TFP for worry.
keep in mind though, i generally do not frequent the forums where sex in walmart lots are discussed.

minced or misunderstood words. no problem.
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Old 02-21-2004, 03:24 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Re: WAKE UP CALL!

Quote:
Originally posted by SecretMethod70
You have a choice to make. You can either continue to live your TFP existence in fear, in which case I'd recommend that you just leave because you're not going to enjoy your time here anymore anyway, or you can realize that just because you don't understand why someone was banned, that does not mean they were banned unjustly.
I dunno, I don't think living your TFP existence in fear and enjoying being a member of the board are mutually exclusive. The way I perceive it is it's like being a member of The Party under communist rule in Russia, as long as you tout The Party's line you enjoy the perks and benefits of membership, but any slight slip and the KGB swoops down and lays the smackdown on your ass.
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Old 02-21-2004, 04:40 AM   #23 (permalink)
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I've added numbers to better facilitate responses...

Quote:
Originally posted by bernadette
(1)no one likes unresolved mystery. no likes deleted posts or threads. (2)no one likes seeing people whose posts they've enjoyed being banned.

(3)it is reasonable to expect folks to want explanation. explicit gory details are not necessary. just some little tidbit to help stop the speculation, rumors & stupid wtf threads.
1. Threads and posts are only ever deleted if they are offensive or break a rule. It stands to reason, then, that the whole point in removing those posts, is because we do want such crap on our boards.... so why would we LEAVE THEM UP for all to see? That makes no sense.

Everyone on the TFP is shielded from a LOT of crap. There are some crappy people out there, and we keep them from bugging all our great members.

(2) And if your next-door-neighbor was a child molester and a rapist, would you demand they stay out of jail because they keep a tidy lawn? We don't go back and delete everything they've ever written, we just make a decision that they have broken too many rules to be allowed continued access. Good posting does not cancel out for being abusive, offensive, or a rule-breaker.

3. Explanation is easy. They broke the rules. Boom, done. Which ones, in what quantity, etc., are not up for debate, and therefore also not up for discussion- that's private information. "speculation, rumors & stupid wtf threads" are caused by people not understanding OR respecting our job here. The police report crimes because they work for the goverment under which you live, you have no choice in whether you are subject to their laws or not, and you pay their salary with taxes. Donations help Halx afford to keep this giant community going. I guarantee it's a lot more expensive than you think. You are not paying for services, you are graciously helping to support your community.

You can leave the TFP if you're not happy with the way we run things, but i assure you of this- our way is as fair as it could possibly be, and we love our members to death. There are many very close friendships shared here on the TFP. Stop in to chat and see it for yourselves some time- there are plenty of free IRC clients, and you can always use the "chat" button at the top of every screen you see while inside the TFP. Nothing is holding any of you back from experiencing every facet of the TFP life.

A person being banned is not typically a 1-person job. It takes more than a button click. Unless there is gross cause for immediate dismissal, the decision to ban a member is agreed upon by a couple of people before it's carried out. Don't ask what a gross cause would be, I can't think of an example- intentionally posting kiddy porn maybe, I don't know. Also, anyone we find to be under 18 is immediately banned. That's a big fat DUH, no one needs to verify that.

I love you all very much, and I look forward to more friendships all the time.

Now go have fun!!
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Old 02-21-2004, 07:13 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by bernadette
thank you for your sarcasm.
Quote:
Originally posted by shakran
I ah. . . think Shokan was talking to Halx, not being sarcastic to you.
I was actually talking to SecretMethod70 and Halx. I don't even see how I was being sarcastic to anyone. I was one that posted a thread about this, and even though the thread took a wrong turn because I wasn't clear in my typing, this thread answered all my questions.
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Old 02-21-2004, 07:15 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Re: Re: WAKE UP CALL!

Quote:
Originally posted by bigbad
I dunno, I don't think living your TFP existence in fear and enjoying being a member of the board are mutually exclusive. The way I perceive it is it's like being a member of The Party under communist rule in Russia, as long as you tout The Party's line you enjoy the perks and benefits of membership, but any slight slip and the KGB swoops down and lays the smackdown on your ass.
So basically, if you break the leader's rules that they set forth very clearly, and you go against those rules, you don't expect to be banned?
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Old 02-21-2004, 04:58 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Course not. You tout The Party's line, or you get shot.
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Old 02-21-2004, 05:38 PM   #27 (permalink)
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this is very strange to me, because I come the the TFP almost every day... usually post at least once, and read all the threads that interest me... and I didn't know there was this sort of "drama" or whatever happening until I came accross these post-drama threads... hmm..
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Old 02-21-2004, 10:36 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shokan
So basically, if you break the leader's rules that they set forth very clearly, and you go against those rules, you don't expect to be banned?
Quote:
Originally posted by bigbad
Course not. You tout The Party's line, or you get shot.
Umm... with all due respect, bigbad, your argument makes no sense. You're basically trying to say that we're a gestapo-tactic-wielding machine of banning and warning that serves to devour its members by forcing them to conform to our mold...

..when all we're saying is, "these are the rules. Please follow them, be a nice person, have fun, meet new people, expand your mind, etc., etc., etc."

Why is it hard to understand that if you break the rules, we tell you to stop doing that, and if you break the rules over and over, after having been told NOT TO several times, we kick you out. I don't really see why this is a hard idea to grasp.

A pointer for all: assembling a cogent argument is usually easier when you're not busy referring to those with whom you're debating as cut-throat, old-school, KGB-style, "Party Line" Russian-government-types.

God I love hyphenation.
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Old 02-21-2004, 11:11 PM   #29 (permalink)
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I'll keep this thread in mind in the future because I do know that I've avoided leaving some (what I perceived to be) constructive criticism for the sake of being banned.

I'm totally in agreement with this "Wake up call" and hope to see some more honest and respectful disagreement in the future :-)

The TFP Rocks!
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Old 02-22-2004, 09:37 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Maybe they should do a monty python thing, and have an argument clinic forum where people can argue all they want, but they have to pay to do it.

The benefits are many:
1) Extra financial support from those that want to argue
2) People who want to argue in 'normal' threads will be called cheap bums because they don't want to shell out the money to go have an 'official' argument. They will be so embarassed they will leave on their own accord and will not have to get banned. No controversy!

Last edited by analog; 02-22-2004 at 06:30 PM..
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Old 02-22-2004, 12:13 PM   #31 (permalink)
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I totally agree with you Secretmethod70. well said!
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Old 02-22-2004, 12:32 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Can't we all just get along?
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Midnight_Son is offline  
Old 02-22-2004, 03:23 PM   #33 (permalink)
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I have a couple comments to make. But I won't make them out of fear that I will be banned..

Which could be construed as a negative comment so maybe I will still be banned.
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Old 02-22-2004, 03:42 PM   #34 (permalink)
MSD
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Quote:
Originally posted by forecheck
I have a couple comments to make. But I won't make them out of fear that I will be banned..

Which could be construed as a negative comment so maybe I will still be banned.
Would you like a complementary tinfoil hat?

We'd like to hear what you have to say.
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Old 02-22-2004, 05:46 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Just a reminder:

good- i think the mods do not explain well enough when they warn you for something.

not good- The mods blow goats for money, they don't explain shit. I know, because your whore of a mother told me.

ok?

good- I think it's unfair we never see what causes a person to be banned. I'd like to know if there's anything that can be done to better inform us, the TFP members, as to why people get banned.

not good- That's fuckin' bullshit!! The mods just randomly ban people because they feel like it, and it doesn't even look like they did anything wrong!

so, to sum up:

constructive criticism = good.
being an asshat, yelling, and tossing wild accusations = bad.

thank you for reading.
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Old 02-24-2004, 10:01 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Location: around the corner
In keeping with my low profile I'll say this and hope that if I'm on the right track I'll be told so and if not I'll be told that as well, but if you want to discuss something discuss the topic at hand not the people or person behind it, agree or disagree whatever, you wont be booted out for having an idea or opnion.
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Old 02-24-2004, 08:55 PM   #37 (permalink)
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here here. i mean get outta here with that crap. i don't need anyone to tell me to speak my mind.

FIGHT THE POWER!
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Old 02-29-2004, 08:14 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Location: 1 mile from Ground Zero
I'm sure the majority of members keep a low profile.

Sometimes too low.

Glad
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