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Old 04-21-2004, 08:41 PM   #1 (permalink)
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draft reinstatement act

this was a topic on the radio today, because apparently it is being brought up again in Congress. because this will affect everyone, our family, our friends, and our children. i thought it belonded in General Discussion.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=38139
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...t_040420155914

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ON CAPITOL HILL
Republican senator:
Bring back the draft
Nebraska's Chuck Hagel says 'all of our citizens' should 'pay some price' for U.S. Iraqi operation

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: April 20, 2004
11:21 p.m. Eastern



© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com


A Republican U.S. senator is calling for a return of the military draft so the cost of the Iraq operation could be borne by people of all economic strata.

Speaking at a Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing on post-occupation Iraq, Sen. Chuck Hagel, R-Neb., said, "There's not an American ... that doesn't understand what we are engaged in today and what the prospects are for the future."

Hagel, a member of the committee, says all Americans should be involved in the effort.

"Why shouldn't we ask all of our citizens to bear some responsibility and pay some price?" Hagel said, arguing that restoring the draft would force "our citizens to understand the intensity and depth of challenges we face."

The senator also argued re-instituting the draft, which ended in the early '70s, would cause the burden of military service to be spread among all economic classes of people.

"Those who are serving today and dying today are the middle class and lower middle class," he claimed.

Hagel's call comes just days after the Pentagon moved to extend the missions of some 20,000 of the 135,000 U.S. troops in Iraq, noted a report from Agence France-Presse. The Bush administration has been criticized for not using enough troops as the coalition works to keep order in Iraqi cities.

As WorldNetDaily reported, a pair of bills was introduced in Congress last year that would bring back the military draft.

S. 89, the Senate version of the legislation, indicates its purpose is "to provide for the common defense by requiring that all young persons in the United States, including women, perform a period of military service or a period of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes."

The bill was introduced Jan. 7, 2003, by Sen. Fritz Hollings, D-S.C.

Says the text of the bill: "It is the obligation of every citizen of the United States, and every other person residing in the United States who is between the ages of 18 and 26 to perform a period of national service as prescribed in this Act unless exempted under the provisions of this Act."

This service, which would be for a minimum of two years, can be either in the military or "in a civilian capacity that, as determined by the president, promotes the national defense, including national or community service and homeland security."

Under the bill, "conscientious objectors" may request a deferment from military training, but must still provide service "that does not include any combatant training component." Alternatively, the objector can be transferred to a civilian service job.

The House of Representatives version of the bill, H.R. 163, is sponsored by Rep. Charles Rangel, D-N.Y.

The bill differs from an earlier attempt to re-institute the draft. As WorldNetDaily reported, the "Universal Military Training and Service Act," introduced in December 2001, applied only to men and only those from 18-22 years of age. Also, the earlier bill required just six months of service.

Libertarian presidential candidate Aaron Russo has launched a petition drive against the draft.

Last fall, media reported on the fact the Selective Service System had posted a notice saying the agency was looking for people to serve on local draft boards. Since then, the appeal has been changed to assure the public that "there is NO connection between this ongoing, routine public outreach to compensate for natural board attrition and current international events. Both the president and the secretary of defense have stated on several occasions that a draft is not needed for the war on terrorism, including Iraq."

Libertarian commentators claim the government is getting things prepared so if the draft is re-instated, conscription can begin as quickly as possible. Recently, presidential candidate Ralph Nader also has warned about attempts to bring back the draft.
this can't possibly be a good idea. for so many reasons. but I am curious to here all of your views
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Old 04-21-2004, 08:52 PM   #2 (permalink)
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This guy was rattling the war-sabre last year and all of his stuff died in committee. I'm not going to sweat the issue too much.

I only noticed last year since his original bill attempted to include women in the draft, which to me, made sense. I've always felt that women can server in the draft as effectively as men, even if they were NOT being pulled into service for front lines duty (whatever that means anymore).
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Old 04-21-2004, 08:52 PM   #3 (permalink)
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The Draft doesnt work in todays military. It wont pass.

The military currently has a problem with too many people in the ranks and/or trying to sign up. Why would they force people who dont want to go?

It wont pass.
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Old 04-21-2004, 10:19 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I agree, this won't pass. There's no way that people would let that happen. The way I see it, the fact that there isn't a draft is one of the main differences between the war in Iraq and Vietnam. If people were over there against there will, then the shit would really hit the fan.
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Old 04-21-2004, 10:52 PM   #5 (permalink)
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http://www.endselectiveservice.org/

End Selective Service. Site says it all.
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Old 04-22-2004, 12:04 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Compulsary service works very well in many modern day countries, including several European ones.

That being said, I have mixed feelings, but probably more positive than negative.
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Old 04-22-2004, 12:30 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Shouldn't this be on the Politics board?


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Old 04-22-2004, 05:05 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Shouldn't he really have said "Shouldn't every US Citizen have to pay the price of our blowhard, quick to act President and his vain attempt to win his father's war?"
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Old 04-22-2004, 05:38 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Last I heard the Military was against reinstating the draft too. They would much rather have people who WANT to be there.
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Old 04-22-2004, 05:45 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Donald Rumsefield is even against the draft and so are many others. It won't get reinstated. If the military needs more troops, there are other ways to get people to enlist. Also, I don't think a draft would be politically helpful to the Bush campaign...
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Old 04-22-2004, 05:55 AM   #11 (permalink)
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All I have to say about this is...

Fuck. That.
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Old 04-22-2004, 05:57 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lebell
Compulsary service works very well in many modern day countries, including several European ones.

That being said, I have mixed feelings, but probably more positive than negative.
I have seen many more positives in my travels of people who served their country for a mandatory period.

I for one have a great appreciation for my country, without service, but there are plenty of others out there who don't even appreciate waking up and breathing.
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Old 04-22-2004, 06:11 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Averett
All I have to say about this is...

Fuck. That.
Why bother to comment when my thoughts have already been noted?
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Old 04-22-2004, 06:26 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I dunno, lately I've been having thoughts questioning the whole concept of wars (which, if you know me, is rather out of character)... It just seems like the citizens, who have very little to do with the conflict itself, end up having to fight and die for the disagreements of their elected leaders. It just seems.. off.. to me.

Obviously I am against the draft for this reason...
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Old 04-22-2004, 06:33 AM   #15 (permalink)
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I've always thought that there should be some form of mandatory enlistment to serve your country either military and non, but the draft is a bad idea unless say WWIII is going on.
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Old 04-22-2004, 06:43 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
...unless say WWIII is going on.
Unfortunatly I don't think we're too far off from this.
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Old 04-22-2004, 06:43 AM   #17 (permalink)
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I'm beyond draft age myself, so take this with the obligatory grain of salt...

I never served in the military myself, but I actually don't think it's a bad idea to have some sort of compulsory service. I know some people who live in countries where military service is mandatory and they say it was the greatest experience of their lives (and these were not gung-ho folks going into it, believe me).

The bonding, the discipline, the code of conduct you learn to live by apparently have a major transformative effect on people.

That said, more on point to this thread:

1) We still have a draft in the US, it just hasn't been activated. All men have to register for selective service (i.e., the draft) when they turn 18. I believe all it takes to start calling people up is a presidential decree, but I could be wrong on that. If I'm right, though, then this bill is silly except to the extent it calls for expanding the system to women.

2) As said before, this will never pass. I believe Rangle introduced it to actually build opposition to the war (it's all very fine and good for the professional soldiers to be sent off somewhere - that's their job - but not my little Timmy!)
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Old 04-22-2004, 11:08 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mr Mephisto
Shouldn't this be on the Politics board?


Mr Mephisto
not in my opinion, it affects everyone,(in America) even those who don't give a shit about politics.
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Old 04-22-2004, 11:09 AM   #19 (permalink)
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I agree, this is stupid. It's just politcal caterwauling from a knee jerk reactionary. I don't know Mr. Hagel, but I can't believe he's actually serious about this. The military is against it, the administration is against it and more importantly the people seem to be against it. I just can't believe he said this to be taken seriously.

That being said, I think some sort of mandatory service is a fantastic idea. I'm not advocating throwing everybody on the front lines for two years, but rather two years of some sort "civil service" each according to his/her means.

Good with computers? Work on an electronic national voting system. Good with numbers? Help the government balance their budget, lord knows they need the help.

Collectively we bitch about the apathy of the younger voter, we complain about the "uninterest" of the younger generation. I think some sort of mandatory civil service would go a long ways in fixing that.
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Old 04-22-2004, 12:08 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I don't know. I feel any "service" to the country, whether military or not, should be voluntary. We pay taxes already, the government should be competent enough to serve us.
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Old 04-22-2004, 12:12 PM   #21 (permalink)
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does the military really need people who don't want to be there?

It certainly wouldn't help the economy, having all those people on the goverment payroll.
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Old 04-22-2004, 12:17 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by moonstrucksoul
does the military really need people who don't want to be there?

It certainly wouldn't help the economy, having all those people on the goverment payroll.
Sure it would... they pay taxes on that payroll, and then they go out an buy things... thus paying taxes.
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Old 04-22-2004, 04:42 PM   #23 (permalink)
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the reason he probably did it was to say to if you want to start a war, there won't be any special people who, because they are rich, can get out of it like there was with Vietnam. This would outrage all of america if it were to pass because no longer would it be a war for those that don't really have any other choice(ie: those that need the money or there are no options really left for them) or the ones that want to join. It would include every little rich kid or kids with parents with connections.
In my opinion, it's more of a statement, in that he knows it will fail, then it is meant as a real action.
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Old 04-22-2004, 05:59 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Averett
All I have to say about this is...

Fuck. That.
I second that. I don't see the need to forcefully send young people out to die like in Vietnam.
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Old 04-22-2004, 10:24 PM   #25 (permalink)
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well... i would only be all for mandatory civil service for a year or so... but as far as for war... .well that is another story.
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Old 04-23-2004, 07:52 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fallon
the reason he probably did it was to say to if you want to start a war, there won't be any special people who, because they are rich, can get out of it like there was with Vietnam. This would outrage all of america if it were to pass because no longer would it be a war for those that don't really have any other choice(ie: those that need the money or there are no options really left for them) or the ones that want to join. It would include every little rich kid or kids with parents with connections.
In my opinion, it's more of a statement, in that he knows it will fail, then it is meant as a real action.
I think this sums it up. I don't know about Chuck Hegel's motives, but that is definitly when Charles Rangel introduced this in the house awhile ago.

I think its a point that needs to be made. How many people on this thread who said some variation on "fuck that" either supported the war or didn't give a shit one way or another? Does that mean its ok for your country to go to war, but you sure as hell wouldn't go?

War is a serious thing, something that must be the collective decision and burden of all of a nation's citizens. Otherwise, it will be embarked upon too since a small minority will be taking all of the damage from the large majority's decisions. Paying others to do the dirty work (i.e. the current system) doesn't help. it creates a culture where the military begins to feel like "the only true Americans," and that everyone without a military record is a lazy shit (I write this sittin in a towel at noon after sleeping in and surfing the net for hours, so maybe they have a point). It creates a culture where the everyday citizens in a democracy are disconnected from the tough things a nation-state must sometimes do. This is, afterall, what led to the fall of Rome.

Quote:
not in my opinion, it affects everyone,(in America) even those who don't give a shit about politics.
This is just my personal pet peeve, but I think this issue is a perfect example of how politics affects everyone. To me, saying "I don't worry about politics" is like saying "I don't clean my bathroom." We live in a democratic society, where decisions about government policy are made colectivley. Which makes the responsibility of understanding and making political decisions the responsibility of every American. Ignore that and you ignore an essential part of your life. The reason American politics are in such a sorry state is because not enough people have been cleaning out their political bathroom.

/end rant, this is probablly a subject for another thread, didn't mean to distract from the draft
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Old 04-23-2004, 08:10 AM   #27 (permalink)
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I think mandatory (not necessarily military) service is a great idea, so it seems that I am in the tiny minority on this thread. I also think it is LONG LONG overdue to extend the draft to include women.
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Old 04-23-2004, 08:28 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Yeah, I also like the idea of mandatory service to your country. This would force people to give a damn about issues like whether or not to go to war. Right now, people just don't care since they think their own ass isn't on the line and this makes it much easier for our leaders to engage in unneccesary wars for purely political or ideological reasons.
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Old 04-23-2004, 09:49 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Our leaders will still go to war wether we have mandatory service or not. The solution would be to have any politicians that want to go to war fight the other countries politicians. Bring the war to the fools that start it.
The problem with mandatory service in the US is that for a country this size it would be prohibitively expensive. Most countries that do have mandatory service are smaller. Besides that, I would be all for it.
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Old 04-23-2004, 09:50 AM   #30 (permalink)
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I would prefer the military to remain all volunteer but I have no problem whatsoever with the possibility of a draft. The only question I have is how women could legally be excluded from the process.
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Old 04-23-2004, 10:04 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Polyphobic

The problem with mandatory service in the US is that for a country this size it would be prohibitively expensive. Most countries that do have mandatory service are smaller.
How would it be prohibitively expensive?
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Old 04-23-2004, 11:23 AM   #32 (permalink)
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I don't have the figures in front of me. You can either believe me or not. Anyhow, in a country this size every year we have quite a large number of persons every year that would be theoretically entering into this program. Take this number and multiply it by the $$ amount it takes to train a soldier. The resulting dollar amount is quite large. Plus, with our military becoming increasingly sophisticated, training is taking longer and longer.
Anyhow, the articles I have read made sense to me at the time.
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Old 04-23-2004, 11:41 AM   #33 (permalink)
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i think some sort of compulsory civil or security service would be a great thing. We are increasingly coming from different ethnic/social/economic/ideological/political/religious backgrounds... i think it would do great things for our country if we could all have something in common from which to draw from.

that being said, i'm going to soon be an AF officer... i certainly do not want a draft into active duty military service. for the AF at least, we have filled all of our recruiting goals and i know that officer training programs regularly turn down qualified individuals because of high competition for training slots.

congress has put a limit on the number of personnel that can be in a particular branch of service at once... and each branch brushes those numbers on a yearly basis. we've got plenty of people volunteering, and plenty of people staying in. if those numbers aren't enough to fight the war in its current form... then we need to rethink how we're fighting it in the first place.
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Old 04-23-2004, 12:24 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by onetime2
How would it be prohibitively expensive?

Well, if they don't pay those who reinlist, some might consider it slavery. Others might voluntarily do it, but not all. Like *moon* said, it would be wiser to raise the pay of the enlisted....that's great for them and may also drive more to join.

Quote:
...unless say WWIII is going on.

Quote:
Unfortunatly I don't think we're too far off from this.
Gradually, it's working its way. 2011 has been predicted (as well as forseen in a dream of mine) as The Year. I am ot going to believe one way or another until it actually happens, but I feel the chill in my bones.
 
Old 04-28-2004, 02:10 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
The bill was introduced Jan. 7, 2003, by Sen. Fritz Hollings, D-S.C.
Fritz Hollings, the one who proposed SSSCA/CBDTPA (force all electronic devices to have a copyright enforcement chip)

edit: I have no idea why my vBcode isn't working....

(fixed- you forgot a backslash)
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Old 04-28-2004, 02:58 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by irateplatypus
i think some sort of compulsory civil or security service would be a great thing.
We have that here in Germany, you can either go to the military for one year or you can "choose" to do civilian service. This usually means you work in a hospital or old people's home
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Old 04-28-2004, 06:32 PM   #37 (permalink)
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i don't feer a draft at all even if it went through and i was drafted i know i would be discharged before i saw any duty i just don't accept a person who tries to tell everything i should do if they told me to jump this high i wouldn't try all i would do is say i can't and won't i don't think it would then be long before i ended up with a dishonerable discharge
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Old 04-28-2004, 07:58 PM   #38 (permalink)
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I hope I get drafted. That will speed up my move to Canada, and maybe my parents will even finance it.
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Old 04-29-2004, 12:41 AM   #39 (permalink)
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You do realize that if you flee to Canada, they can force you back to the US.
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Old 04-29-2004, 12:51 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Way too little public support for this thing to pass- brings back the evil specter of vietnam- and no politico in his right mind wants to be associated with that........
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