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Old 04-27-2004, 08:52 AM   #1 (permalink)
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New homes block is for 'Asians only'

Quote:
27/04/04 - London news section

New homes block is for 'Asians only'
By Paul Waugh, Evening Standard Whitehall Editor

Race watchdogs have been called in to investigate a state-of-the-art London housing block that is being reserved for Asians only.

The development, which will provide sheltered housing for 40 Muslim "elders" when it opens in the East End this summer, has triggered controversy because white pensioners will be excluded.

The Commission for Racial Equality has now been asked to check whether the Sonali Gardens project breaks the Race Relations Act.

Criticism of the project comes from both Conservatives and Liberal Democrats. Tories warned today that the block was a form of "segregation" that could be seized on by the British National Party in its bid for votes in the capital, particularly in the East End.

The 40 new homes, together with a day centre, have been built in a joint project by Tower Hamlets council and Circle 33 housing association on the site of an old people's home that catered for all communities.

Three other new sheltered housing blocks in the borough are not earmarked just for Asians.

Critics point out that its specialist services, such as halal meals, Bengali-speaking carers and Islamic praying facilities, could be offered within a mixedrace development. Lib-Dem councillor Janet Ludlow said: "The most important thing is to make sure we are acting legally."

The 1976 Race Relations Act and its 2000 amendment state that a discriminatory service can only be offered if an authority can prove that a specific need is not currently being met.

But a recent council report admitted that the level of need among elderly Bangladeshis was "a hidden need".

David Davis, the shadow home secretary, said: "There would rightly be outrage if a council offered a whites-only housing block.

"I firmly believe that we should look to achieve integration rather than segregation in our society. This is the sort of thoughtless policy that feeds extremism."

Sirajul Islam, lead councillor for social services at Tower Hamlets, said: "We certainly do not advocate segregation in Tower Hamlets.

"But the 'one size fits all' approach to public services is no longer acceptable in 21st century Britain.

"Tower Hamlets is fortunate to have a diverse mix of communities and the council strives to ensure that its services are responsive to the differing and changing needs of its residents."

A spokesman for the CRE said: "We would seek to understand the full facts of why someone was doing this and on the basis of those facts whether it was within the law or a breach of the law."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Find this story at http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/l...0931?version=1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If this was sanctioned by the government then people would be all up in arms, but when it's the communities doing it then it's okay, they are just "feeling their roots" and such.

Bullshit. It's still wrong. The more we stay apart and separate from each other the more miscommunication and misunderstanding happen.
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Old 04-27-2004, 08:54 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I've never understood voluntary ghettoization. But it does seem to be a fairly popular lifestyle option.
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Old 04-27-2004, 09:06 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
state-of-the-art London housing block
what's ghetto about it?

it is fucked up though. if a bunch of white people got together to live in a little community, others would say it was a supremecist group.
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Old 04-27-2004, 09:15 AM   #4 (permalink)
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It's religious group of old people.

In effect, a retirement village.

Excuse me, but, aren't there a _lot_ of single religion/culture retirement homes around?

Just a quick cycle down this list seems to point to a few on your side of the pond...

AAHSA

I see absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to spend, and the community as a whole providing for, your remaining years in a micro-community tending exclusively to the needs of your particular cultural niche.
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Old 04-27-2004, 09:23 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by moonstrucksoul
what's ghetto about it?

it is fucked up though. if a bunch of white people got together to live in a little community, others would say it was a supremecist group.
ghet·to ( P ) Pronunciation Key (gt)
n. pl. ghet·tos or ghet·toes
* A section of a city occupied by a minority group who live there especially because of social, economic, or legal pressure.
* An often walled quarter in a European city to which Jews were restricted beginning in the Middle Ages.
* Something that resembles the restriction or isolation of a city ghetto: “trapped in ethnic or pink-collar managerial job ghettoes” (Diane Weathers).

Having recently looked for Assisted living homes for the past few years, no there is not a "single religion/culture retirement" place that I have found.
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Old 04-27-2004, 09:26 AM   #6 (permalink)
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tisonlyi that's a pretty vague link, if you want a religious community that's fine, but I think that it's pretty fair to say that a Methodist, Christian or a Southern Baptist Community could be all races and colors.
show me one that says you have to be a certain race.

thanks for the definition, Cynthetic, i guess i had the idea that a ghettto had to be poor.
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Last edited by moonstrucksoul; 04-27-2004 at 09:30 AM..
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Old 04-27-2004, 09:35 AM   #7 (permalink)
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I'm a WASP (white anglo-saxon protestant), so I guess it would be ok to build a gated community and only let other WASPs in?

No, of course not.

I'm sorry, but I can't see this as anything other than racism.
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Old 04-27-2004, 09:47 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Hey, the article only says 40 muslim elders.

that could be black, white, brown or yellow and possibly white.

Asian muslims do come in all shades.

Also:

"Three other new sheltered housing blocks in the borough are not earmarked just for Asians. "

So, the development isn't _ENTIRELY_ for asians.

And:

"a recent council report admitted that the level of need among elderly Bangladeshis was "a hidden need". "

There is an officially recognised gap between provision and demand for services to specific segments of the asian community in that locale. What is the major problem in servicing that need?

Read that article without the spin.

There's a need for asian specific retirement facilities in this locale. A development is being prepared to service that particular need, as well as the needs of the community as a whole (the three blocks which not earmarked).

Now, sans hype, whats wrong with it?
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Old 04-27-2004, 09:47 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lebell
I'm a WASP (white anglo-saxon protestant), so I guess it would be ok to build a gated community and only let other WASPs in?

No, of course not.

I'm sorry, but I can't see this as anything other than racism.
Read the article again.

YOU ARE WRONG.
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Old 04-27-2004, 09:51 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cynthetiq
ghet·to ( P ) Pronunciation Key (gt)
n. pl. ghet·tos or ghet·toes
* A section of a city occupied by a minority group who live there especially because of social, economic, or legal pressure.
* An often walled quarter in a European city to which Jews were restricted beginning in the Middle Ages.
* Something that resembles the restriction or isolation of a city ghetto: “trapped in ethnic or pink-collar managerial job ghettoes” (Diane Weathers).

Having recently looked for Assisted living homes for the past few years, no there is not a "single religion/culture retirement" place that I have found.
Well, in the society i live in, these things DO exist.

For example, A Roman Catholic home is only obliged to take in a very few residents who are non-RC. This obligation is more than met in this potential development, it seems to me.
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Old 04-27-2004, 09:53 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by tisonlyi
Read the article again.

YOU ARE WRONG.

I read it three times, and each time, this is what stood out:

Quote:
Critics point out that its specialist services, such as halal meals, Bengali-speaking carers and Islamic praying facilities, could be offered within a mixedrace development. Lib-Dem councillor Janet Ludlow said: "The most important thing is to make sure we are acting legally."
So please explain how I "AM WRONG".
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Old 04-27-2004, 10:19 AM   #12 (permalink)
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This is how you are wrong:

Quote:
I'm a WASP (white anglo-saxon protestant), so I guess it would be ok to build a gated community and only let other WASPs in?
It's not gated (at least i've never come across any inner city retirement village in the uk that is u.s.-style gated). It's not a monoculture*, there are 40 places reserved for supply to a segment of the asian community in that area who have been officially marked out as uncatered for.

there are _3 unreserved blocks on the same development_, whose places are up for general consideration.

I'm really, really sick of my fellow WASPs (I was christened and raised in church of orange, no less) kneejerking themselves into a tailspin as soon as any non-white minority dares to suggest that it have facilities which cater to it, in a very small way, as though it were the majority.

These people have cultural requirements that are markedly different to us nice white folks, why shouldn't they be catered for as they would like to be?

The lib dem says the first thing they should do is make sure they aren't breaking any laws. well, isnt that the first thing every authority should be doing? and, we only get one little comment from mr lib dem, knowing lib dems in this country, i'm damn sure he had more to say than that.

You're swallowing a sensationalist line from a non-story cooked up on a slow news day.

*though i'd have no troubles in allowing moncultures in specific circumstances for tiny minorities with cultures very different to that which surrounds them every day. (Why should a muslim live in a home where he or she watches others eating pork, wondering if his food is being polluted?)
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Old 04-27-2004, 10:40 AM   #13 (permalink)
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I dont know what to think of this.
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Old 04-27-2004, 11:07 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I don't see any problem with them catering to a certain cultural or ethnic group. I see no problem with them offering prayer rooms and foods for a certain religious group. What I see as the problem is they intend to refuse residence to other ethnic, cultural, and religious groups. More than likely they would not have many other groups wanting to move into a housing development that isn't designed to cater to them. Also those who are already prejudice against the group they are catering to will probably not want to even seek residence there.

All they have to do is allow other's to live there as well. Build it to cater to whomever they want to. We have a Catholic nursing home with catholic prayer rooms and nuns who work there with the residents. They don't refuse those of a different faith to be admitted there. They just don't draw many who are of a different faith.

They are just asking to be picked on and make an issue out of it by stating that they want to exclude others. Go ahead - tell your kid he can't have a cookie when he's not even thinking about it - all of a sudden he wants one. I personally see this as them Asking for trouble.
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Old 04-27-2004, 11:35 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Just the odd prayer room will do?

Myself, i don't think so.

Preparing halal food, prayer rooms, staff with knowledge of their particular cultural sensitivities and a critical mass of other residents with a similar culture and faith in order that they feel comfortable, not just 'a minority that must be catered too' and then you're going some way towards proper facilities...

Hey, doesn't this sound like what they're planning?

Like you say, not many people of other faiths want to be in this RC home you're talking about - and the cultural and religious differences between different creeds of christianity (which i assume are the majority of inter-faith residents there's be there) aren't that great.

The differences between branches of christianity are nothing in comparison to the differences between christianity and islam to begin with, blend in all the other elements of language (media, entertainments, announcements, etc), food, history, culture, etc...

See where I'm going?

Why should they constantly be a minority which has to be catered for within a nice, white, anglo saxon establishment?

They've worked their whole lives, mostly at nice white people's command and all they want is to be comfortable in their waining years, but thats too much to ask apparently.

Maybe certain elements will be incensed by it, but I doubt any more white sheets will be mutilated than would have been already.
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Old 04-27-2004, 11:40 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by tisonlyi
*snip*
Oh.

So discrimination is ok so long as it is only a little?

And as to seeing others eating pork; please give me a break. I can't speak for England, but in America, you don't have the right not to be offended (at least theoretically).

All I can see is that you are defending the concept of legalized segregation.
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Old 04-27-2004, 11:44 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Growing up with both feet in both doors, being raised american by a filipino father and mother, I will tell you now that my cousins who were EQUAL in schooling etc. but were not encouraged to have diverse friends all have issues now with socializing with "the white man"

my parents have all but shed their national heritages to be american.

Now as far as the brits are concerned, well they always leave a territory in flux, Pakistan/India, So Africa, etc.

I'm waiting to see what a brit like Strange Famous has to say about such a thing.
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Old 04-27-2004, 11:59 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lebell
Oh.

So discrimination is ok so long as it is only a little?

And as to seeing others eating pork; please give me a break. I can't speak for England, but in America, you don't have the right not to be offended (at least theoretically).

All I can see is that you are defending the concept of legalized segregation.
Well, there we go. Defeated on your arguement, you move on to pastures new.

I'm not defending legalized segregation, I'm defending the right of people to live in a segment of the community that they can feel comfortable in and be catered for _on their own terms_.

Not as a burden, not as a single item 'menu option' but wholly and completely catered for.

There is a difference between segregation via dogs, guns and "WHITES ONLY" signs and voluntary retreat into sanctuaries of shared belief, culture and lifestyle - which, as pointed out, are not complete monocultures.

And the pork thing.... *sniffs bait, turns away*
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Old 04-27-2004, 12:06 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Now as far as the brits are concerned, well they always leave a territory in flux, Pakistan/India, So Africa, etc.


Nice generalization there.

I'll restrain myself from replying with vitriol to such a cursory, ill informed remark.
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Old 04-27-2004, 12:10 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by tisonlyi
Well, there we go. Defeated on your arguement, you move on to pastures new.
??

I seem to be on the same subject, namely, state sponsored discrimination, specially, housing.

Quote:
I'm not defending legalized segregation, I'm defending the right of people to live in a segment of the community that they can feel comfortable in and be catered for _on their own terms_.
Maybe you need to go read that article again.

The housing is TAX-PAYER SUBSIDIZED.

If people want to segregate themselves, I support their right to do so, but not on the taxpayer dime.

Quote:
Not as a burden, not as a single item 'menu option' but wholly and completely catered for.
I have no clue what this sentence means.

Quote:

There is a difference between segregation via dogs, guns and "WHITES ONLY" signs and voluntary retreat into sanctuaries of shared belief, culture and lifestyle - which, as pointed out, are not complete monocultures.
As I stated above, this "sanctuary" is being built on the tax-payer's dime, which is the source of my complaint.

Quote:
And the pork thing.... *sniffs bait, turns away*
How can you turn away when you brought up pork?


Quote:
Originally posted by tisonlyi

*though i'd have no troubles in allowing moncultures in specific circumstances for tiny minorities with cultures very different to that which surrounds them every day. (Why should a muslim live in a home where he or she watches others eating pork, wondering if his food is being polluted?)
I would suggest if you don't like getting called on things, don't bring them into an argument.
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Last edited by Lebell; 04-27-2004 at 12:13 PM..
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Old 04-27-2004, 12:52 PM   #21 (permalink)
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i am with lebell all the way... no matter how much you argue it, this is still being paid for by tax payers. i am pretty sure that everyone pays taxes, not just that minority...
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Old 04-27-2004, 01:05 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by tisonlyi


Nice generalization there.

I'll restrain myself from replying with vitriol to such a cursory, ill informed remark.
it isn't a generalization. It's historical fact. Look at all the colonies that Great Britain setup for trade etc. and then left.

Pakistan India - left the Kashmir region up for dispute.

I don't have my history notes handy but I know that this is something that they have done in the past on more than several occasions.
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Old 04-27-2004, 01:13 PM   #23 (permalink)
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both sides of this debate have a point, Sure, it would be great for the elders to have that type of place to live, but it shouldn't be 'asians only', if my white grandpa wants to live there he should be able to live there. what about African muslims?, American muslims?, all muslims? I know "asian" covers all types of races that live in Asia.
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Old 04-27-2004, 01:32 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I cant see the problem at all, it is a religious home, it isnt segregated by race, but religion. I cant see how it is any different or any more offensive than a Catholic school.
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Old 04-27-2004, 01:49 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strange Famous
I cant see the problem at all, it is a religious home, it isnt segregated by race, but religion. I cant see how it is any different or any more offensive than a Catholic school.
are catholic schools paid for with tax dollars?
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Old 04-27-2004, 02:43 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strange Famous
I cant see the problem at all, it is a religious home, it isnt segregated by race, but religion. I cant see how it is any different or any more offensive than a Catholic school.

All religious schools are private. They recieve absolutely NO state funding, therefore, they can do whatever the hell they want. Public schools are not allowed to even recite our own countries' pledge of allegiance, I dont see how this community could even be considered "OK". Except that its in the UK, and I dont know Jack Shit about laws, customs, and cultures in the UK, so feel free to disregard anything I said that dosent apply to the UK.
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Old 04-27-2004, 02:55 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Faith based schools can be publicly funded, at least in part, within the uk education system.

I'm not defending or promoting that.

And in the UK, we don't spend Dollars, regardless of what you may think.

Also, I will not enter into a debate on the governmentally disjointed landmass of india - ruled under a myriad of princedoms - which became India through the ruthless rule of the raj, it's bribery and it's rail network, which became india and pakistan, which later became india, pakistan and bangladesh, save to say that the prefered option for the british was for India to remain as one whole nation they congealed, not for partition.

Partition happened, from my learning and reading, entirely down to the fact that the Congress party (Nehru in particular) decided that there should be no special governmental arrangements for the areas that were overwhelmingly muslim.

Jinnah, Mountbatten and pretty much all others involved were forced down the road to partition through the intransigence and arrogance of the Congress Party, believing that it alone could speak for all hindus, muslims and sikhs.

If you want to trade history, or irrelevant insults about our respective nations histories, we can do that elsewhere.
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Last edited by tisonlyi; 04-27-2004 at 03:07 PM..
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Old 04-27-2004, 02:58 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by TopRamen66
All religious schools are private. They recieve absolutely NO state funding, therefore, they can do whatever the hell they want. Public schools are not allowed to even recite our own countries' pledge of allegiance, I dont see how this community could even be considered "OK". Except that its in the UK, and I dont know Jack Shit about laws, customs, and cultures in the UK, so feel free to disregard anything I said that dosent apply to the UK.
Thankfully, we dont have any jingoistic notions such as "The Pledge Of Allegiance", but we do respect that a community funded education system should, at least in part, respect that community in all of its many shades.
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"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--
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Old 04-27-2004, 03:04 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by moonstrucksoul
both sides of this debate have a point, Sure, it would be great for the elders to have that type of place to live, but it shouldn't be 'asians only', if my white grandpa wants to live there he should be able to live there. what about African muslims?, American muslims?, all muslims? I know "asian" covers all types of races that live in Asia.
This a scheme partially funded by local government, reflecting the particular needs of that, local, community in a part of a city over here in the UK.

It just so happens that there's a recognised need for residential care facilities for a number of elderly Bangladeshi Muslims.

The facility, I repeat, is _not_ entirely Muslim. It is _not_ entirely asian.

There are three unreserved blocks of accomodation.
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Old 04-27-2004, 03:05 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I'm done with this.

It's a non-story, and if people want to read reverse racism into this, then fine.

In _my_ reality, it simply isnt there.

Your reality is up to you.
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Old 04-27-2004, 04:13 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by tisonlyi
Thankfully, we dont have any jingoistic notions such as "The Pledge Of Allegiance"...

God Save the Queen
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Old 04-27-2004, 04:39 PM   #32 (permalink)
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I fail to see the jingoism.

Maybe if you'd gone for land of hope and glory...

*random irrelevance*

But then, our parliament doesnt go around making additions and potential subtractions from such things...

Oh no, they're far too busy shouting at each other and wavng order papers....

*waves order papers*

Nyer, nyer, nyer!
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"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--
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Old 04-27-2004, 06:31 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Interesting article, but the contributions and comments are even more interesting.

If I may put in my two cents worth:

I'm from Australia where I think the privately run Catholic schools do receive some government funding (simply because education in any means or form is a public good). Please correct me if I am wrong about that fact.

Having said that I don't think there's much criterion to be accepted into a catholic school other than to have been baptised. Now, don't automatically assume that baptism has much value. I am myself a Christian so baptism has a LOT of value and meaning to me, but I know many people who are in (or have been in) catholic schools (and been baptised) who don't place any value in baptism or in the religious aspect of the Catholic schools.

In fact, many Chinese parents (I am myself a Chinese so please let me diss my own race) are quite, ahem, tight with money so they allow their kids to be "baptised" (even though they are from Buddhist background) just so that they can send their children to a "cheaper" school (Catholic schools have very good education but are less pricey than private schools). My own parents wanted to do that with me (years before I became a Christian).

What's my point? I think it's OK to use public money to meet the needs of a particular race/culture, that's not necessarily discrimination. However, I would like to see the "ban" lifted so that, if a non asian muslim wants to live there and be a "minority", he should be allowed to. ALthough honestly, I don't think that will happen anyway. But for the sake of avoiding any resentment, it'll be advisable to lift the ban.

The example I gave illiustrates the point; the Catholic schools only required people to "participate" in their religious eduaction but there is NO requirement that they had to believe or that they would be practicing Catholic outside the school.

OK, so it's not the most foolproof argument, but it's just my 2 cents.
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