Rubyee

I believe I am being discriminated against at work because I do not have any children, and I think this is unfair.

Here is my example. My coworker, who has kids, went to our supervisor, who also has kids, asking an outrageous request. She wanted to change her schedule completely to revolve around her children. That would mean that I would have had to change mine for her- which not only would be inconvenient for me, but would cause me indirectly to lose an hour of work (see my journal for more details).

I got myself out of it, saying that I couldn't, but I still think it isn't fair that I should be asked. She wasn't asking about one day, which I have worked with her on in the past, but indefinitley! If I had requested that, I would have been told no, that I was hired with the understanding that I could work the schedule required. In fact, I have been told the same, more or less.

This coworker of mine has also taken a lot of unpaid time off, that I have to cover her for, regarding her kids, with no trouble from the supervisor. However, when I try to do the same thing, I get the thrid degree, followed with a lot of sighs and talks with the supervisor.

Is it fair that because I have no children that I should be treated any differently? Maybe those of you with kids think that it is fair, which is fine- you are certianly entitled to your opinion. I understand that companies try to work with parents as much as they can, but I think that troubling and inconveniencing the person with no children for the sake of the worker with children?

I suppose that if it were me, I would have told her to find a way to work with the schedule given, or that we could find a replacement. The least the coworker could do is try and find a day care that would work with her work schedule.

So am I right in my rage?

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maleficent

I read your journal entry, and honestly, I am going to come across as a child hating tyrant. But, as an employer, if someone has children, that's not my problem. They are hired to do a job, to work around the schedule that they are given.

If they can't, work elsewhere.

At a particular client I go to, one of my contacts is not here, more than she is because of her children. Kid gets sick, mom stays home. Anything goes on with the kids. she's out.

Having a child is a choice, not a right. As an employer I should not have to cater to the child having people over the non-child having people. I swear, people who have children are supposed to be responsible, but alas, they aren't responsible with their jobs.

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Bill O'Rights

Wow...tough one. I have kids, but I try my damnest to schedule around work. Sometimes that's not always possible. School administrators tend to forget that we don't all get off work at 3:00 when they schedule school related events. For me...once in awhile is no big deal. Life is full of interuptions. However, I do not feel that you should be asked to rearrange your life, permanantly, for the sole purpose of easing the burden off your co-worker. It was (A) his/her choice to have kids, (B) his/her choice to enter the workforce, and (C) his/her choice to seek and accept employment with your employer.

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User Name

99 out of 100 times it's going to be a "her", as it was in Rubyee's situation. Regardless, as I have no kids, I am siding with Rubyee. If and when I do, my opinion may very well change, and I think that would apply to many people.

Polyphobic

I had the same problem when I was younger. Never had a holiday off and all my schedule requests were treated with a lower priority. Now that I have a child, I do realize that having a flexible job is a godsend. However, I do not believe that my flexibility should be at the expense of my coworkers (with or without children).

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lurkette

I'm torn about this one. I know it's hard to have kids, and employers should be flexible enough to make raising kids and working possible, if for no other reason than that it's a good investment in the future workforce to have stable families. On the other hand, the festering resentment of the childfree: for god's sake, you CHOSE to have kids; you get tax breaks, and I'm paying for your kid's schooling with my property taxes (which I'm happy to do, see above "investment" argument), do I have to rearrange my life for your kid's soccer schedule now, too?

I think workplaces are having a hard time negotiating this minefield as more and more people choose not to have kids. Having a family has by and large been the norm, and a lot of people still make assumptions about what's worthy of flexibility (taking your kid to the doctor) and what's not (taking your beloved dog to the vet). A lot of more progressive workplaces (I think I remember that SAS in NC is one of the best examples) are instituting flexible benefits and PTO policies that accommodate a variety of lifestyles, whether you need to take your kid to sports, or volunteer in the community, or take care of an elderly parent. These places have lower turnover, lower absenteeism, higher productivity, and happier employees.

Bottom line, it's just good policy for employers to be as accommodating as possible of ALL of their employees' "special needs" but in an equitable way, and without burdening other employees.

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onetime2

Yep, definitely discrimination IMO. I've seen it many times. Single people have less right to need time off than married people, married people have less right than married people with kids, married people with kids have less right to time off than single people (especially single mothers) with kids. I think it's a management problem and not necessarily a corporate problem. There are far too many terrible managers out there. Those that don't take into consideration all the people under them should not hold positions of authority. Policies need to be consistently applied to all those that function under them (of course exceptions can occasionally be made but it should not be a regular occurrence).

An example that bugged the crap out of me was when I was in Officer's Candidate School for the Marine Corps. The squad commander (another officer candidate) got to set the schedule for "fire watch" (late night shifts of candidates to monitor the squad bays). He made sure to give himself and others with families watch during the week so that he could go home when we got 23 hours off on the weekend, the rest of us were stuck rotating through watches on the weekend when we could have been off the base. It honestly didn't bug me much for myself but overall was unfair to everyone else. I called him on it but he ignored it. It's things like that which let you know who will be a good leader and who won't. I have little doubt that he never amounted to much as far as leadership goes.

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zxello

Im gonna do something I usually don't do, Im gonna reply before I read the responses......

but the way I see it, the employer absoloutely has the right to -ask- but not to force or threatin to fire you for not changing your schedule. They can ask, and you can say no, and then thats the end of that.

Have you expressed your feelings to your supervisor about getting the third degree for doing the same thing as your coworker?

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absorbentishe

Okay, I've got kids, and I've never used them as an excuse. My former boss always said that those with children weren't expected to stay late, yatta yatta. In my case, that's complete bullshit. I work until the shit is done. She would take more time off than me for reasons she related to "children", even though she didn't

Now asking to fill in now and then is fine, but indefinately is fucked up. If they are putting undue pressure on you to do it, then I would contact whomever you can about it, maybe even an attorney. And if you were to loose your job over it, then you'd have a lawsuit on your hands.

Hard8s

It goes further than kids. Ever had someone take a smoke break? I have gone and sat outside for the same amount of time that the other person smoked. The boss looked at me really funny and asked what I was doing. I told him taking a smoke break. He asked where my cigarette was. I told him I do not smoke. He then looked at me REALLY funny. I told him if so and so gets to come out here to smoke whenever he wants then I can take the same amount of time. He was really pissed at that. He went through all sorts of stuff to try and get me in trouble for that. I stuck to my guns about it though, and they ended up changing the policy, as it was discriminatory to those who do not smoke!

There are a lot of things like this. If I had a choice to hire someone and I had 2 equally qualified people in front of me, with one being single, and one with a spouse and children, I would lean to hire the single person. In that with the single person you are only hiring them. With the married person who has children, you end up with all of their and the family problems affecting their work, time at work, etc.

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maleficent

Ah, but if you hired that single person, you'd have to deal with romances, perhaps office romances that go wrong, coming in to work hungover, leaving work early because they have a date.

Each people, single, married, young, old comes with their own unique set of quirks when they are hired.

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choskins

I always try to accomodate my secretary's children. For example, if her kid gets sick and she has to leave early, it is fine. The thing is she doesn't take advantage of the situation, and she makes up what she misses. I feel I would be an a$$hole to do otherwise. I try to be fair. She sees that and appreciates it.

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Kaos

And they should all lose their jobs if their "quirks" were affecting their work.

cj2112

I'm a full time single dad, I work full time also (50ish hours a week). My employer has set a schedule that i work, sometimes I need to work late to finish a project on time....I took the job knowing that this was the nature of the position. Sometimes kids get sick, sometimes circumstances change, however my employer still has obligations to fulfill. He hired because he needed me there during the hours that i am scheduled to work, if I can't work those hours he has every right to find somebody who can. I am tired of people expecting the world to cater to their every little whim.

Menoman

I wouldnt call it discrimination at all honestly. Many jobs will try to work around peoples schedules so they can have better homelife. Well, many of the non-super-corperations at least.

If you got out of it by saying you didnt want to or can't. You had a choice in the matter.

Even if you didnt have a choice in the matter, its a matter of scheduling, employers can say at anytime they're changing the work hours the only thing the employee's can do is either deal with it, or quit.

If it were a matter of pay raises b/c of kids, extra vacation, then it would be a different situation all together.

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onetime2

It is basically the same as the above. If the worker/parent gets to take off early or gets better schedules they are being compensated to a greater degree than the non parent worker who doesn't get those benefits. Additionally, if the work that the parent/worker is missing during these times gets shifted to the non parent worker they are, in essence, receiving a pay cut because they are doing more work for the same pay.

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shakran

Well Rubyee, a lot of people seem torn on this one. I'm not. I'm firmly with you on it. This kind of crap happens more often than you would ever imagine. In MANY work places kids are the magic ticket to get away with just about anything. Hell you can even get away with goofing off on the internet at work as long as you have children. "I was checking in on Little Johnny with the nursery's webcam." You can get all the time off you want even if you've already used all your vacation/sick days. You can even bring your squalling kid into work with you for a day, disrupting everyone else's work because "I just couldn't find a sitter."

There's a whole new generation of entitlement parents who think that because they have children they are entitled to special privledges. People build eyesores without permits "for the chilllldren" and get away with it (Judge Judy is being villified right now for suing her neighbor who built a lacrosse field in his back yard without a permit. He screwed up the field drainage and it's now draining muddy water into her swimming pool. The guy's excuse for his illegal field? The kids like it so he should get an exception to the law.) Stores have parking places, often as close to or closer to the store than handicapped spaces, that are designated as "mothers with children" spaces. Double stupid there - first off what about fathers with children. Second, children are not a disability, quit treating them as such.

The Entitlement Parents also feel that it's perfectly fine to let their kid run around, yell, and be generally obnoxious in restaurants, theaters, etc. They're too busy having a good time to discipline the kids, so everyone else has to deal with the uproar.

IMHO, if you have a kid that's great. More power to you. But it's not your employer's fault, and your employer gets no benefit out of your child, so you should not expect your employer to have to give you special treatment because of the kid.

You also do not have the right to impose your child on others. It is not excuseable for you to let your child disrupt other people's peace and quiet.

Basically, children do not in any way make you special to the point that you should get privlidges that others are not offered.

water_boy1999

Yup, I see it all the time as well. So many people use their kids as an excuse to get out of work. My "not so liked" colleague uses her kids as an excuse about once a week. I think it is a disgrace but there is nothing we can do legally to keep her from taking advantage of the system.

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dirtyrascal7

that kind of action will get your ass sued, brotha. you're not even allowed to ASK if they have children or not.

HR people have insanely tough jobs because everyone's needs and demands on their time are different. in this case, we're talking about just 2 people and there isn't any clear-cut answer... now imagine trying to make 50 or 100 employees happy all at the same time. wow.

rubyee, maybe you need to request a change in HR policies because i agree that you are being discriminated against. just because you don't have children doesn't mean you don't have other things that demand your time and attention throughout the work week. it's good to see your company trying to accommodate a working mother, but they need to realize that non-mothers aren't slaves to their needs and should be given equal leeway for time off or flexibility in scheduling.

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laconic1

*applause* Best reply ever. I'm so fed up with parents who expect other people to rearrange their lives or put up with unreasonable, unruly behavior, because the parent has needs that outweigh everyone else.

Yakk

A reason for companies to treat people with kids better: People with kids need stability more than people without kids. You have them over a barrel, they are very unlikely to quit if they don't have another job lined up.

A single person doesn't have the large liability of a child. This gives them more freedom to quit of the job sucks.

This could make parents with kids a slightly better employee (more desperate!), all other things being equal.

=)

I've actually heard of something like this happening: employers who checked their applicants credit ratings, and hired people with mountains of debt. The debt made sure that the employee would take more shit before quitting. (in this case, it was recent graduates)

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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

aurigus

So do you guys think they should do away with Maternity/Paternity leave? Isn't that discrimination by your definitions?

If so, should pregant moms be ineligible to be hired because they have to take off from work?

It's a very slippery slope.

I think parenting takes a very special place in our society. Maybe 20 or 30 years ago this wasn't a big deal, because mom was at home taking care of the kids (a full time job in itself) and dad was at work making the money. They didn't really affect each other. But, with equal opportunity in the workplace and the rise of a 2-income family, this changes things a bit. Things have to be shifted around.

H12

Shakran said it best with the entire post, but I'll just quote the final comment.

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Rubyee

No, I think it is different. Most companies will state their maternity/paternity leave at hiring, or will do so if asked. I know when I am hired, that if someone in the office gets pregnant, they are allowed maternity, and by accepting the job agree that I am aware of this, whether I am or not. If I didn't ask by that time, it is my fault for not asking- not for them not telling me.

However, the fact that the job I was hired to do is expected to change because someone else has kids is different. I did not accept the job with the understanding that if someone with kids had a problem, I would be expected to bite the bullet.

It is hard to put into words right now, but it is still true.

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billege

I agree with lots of that. I hate, and deliberately park in, the mothers and baby spots. Kids are not a handicap, kiss my ass. My money is just as good, and no one's offering me a "married guy with heavy beer and charcoal to carry" spot.
For one, I get pissy that Fathers are seldom recognized, unless they are being blamed for not paying some check. You're gonna single out a certain demographic, and single out one gender while at it? That's plain stupid. But I wonder how many fathers grin sheepshly at those signs, and don't park there when not with mommy. They've handed over their dignity, and never felt the pain when it left.


As to the "I've got at kid" card, I've worked, and work, with a "kid card" player. It bugs the living shit out of me. My wife and I haven't had kids yet, by choice. That does not mean our needs, schedule-wise, bend at the whim the office parents. The kids are they're damn problem.
When I do have kids, I expect to make sacrifices, not ask others to make them for me. I know having kids won't be easy, and won't be cheap.

But they'll be my kids, they'll be my blessing, not someone else's curse.

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animosity

you are absolutely right for your anger... people bring their personal lives into work way to often. it drives me insane. i have quit a very well paying job before because of a similar situation.

people are stupid, lazy and think that the world revolves around them and their stupid little lives.

aurigus

Those mommy with kid handicap spots sound like a croc. I've never seen them before; I hope they stay on the west coast!

And, well to all those complaining; life isn't fair. It's the way things have been for all eternity

Menoman

Why shouldnt people with children be angry that single people are too, to care about others lives also?

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Yakk

I've seen "pregnant mothers" spots, but never "mothers with kids" spots...

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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

maleficent

I've seen them a bunch in the UK, and there's a shopping center in Binghamton NY that has them -- the general idea behind them is momma has a stroller for the little heathens and rather than having her pull the stroller into parking lot traffic, she should have enough room beside the car to get the heathens ready to go shop.

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Redgirl

I kind of wish more families had the option of a parent staying at home with the kids all the time. But everyone pretty much has to have 2 incomes just to make it, so what are they supposed to do when their kid is sick? They have to be there for them, and that means taking off work. Daycare's won't generally take kids who are sick.

I was always glad to help out my coworkers when they had emergencies come up like that. Of course it was only for emergencies, they never asked me to completely alter my schedule forever. I would have been less inclined to do that.

I think people should be a little more sympathetic to parents issues whether they have kids or not. I would want some flexibility if I had children, so I won't begrudge that for someone else. Where's our sense of community?

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Rubyee

There have been many times where I have stayed late to cover for her if her kids are sick, or if there is an emergency. And I think that anyone with a sense of decency would do that.

But to come to me and ask me to change my schedule completely for something that can be fixed by just looking for another day care is ludicrious. First of all, it tells me that there couldn't possibly be anything more important than my co-worker's kids to me, since I don't have kids of my own. My life isn't important until I have kids. It also says that my terms of hiring are under the control of those with children, and that can change at their every whim.

I know that you weren't talking about my case specifically, but I think a lot of people in this thread are forgetting that this isn't a one time deal.

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animosity

they should... im just talking about people who bring their personal lives into work all together. not just people with kids. just because you have kids doesnt mean you bring it up at work.

billege

There is a big difference between asking for help when kid is sick, etc. and just saying hey, I have kids give me this schedule.

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I can sum up the clash of religion in one sentence:
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sapiens

Sometimes, employers provide extra benefits to parents with children because they need the employees. For, example, some positions require skill sets that are rare to find in employees, some positions are in locations that generally don't appeal to single people, etc. - I've heard that rural colleges cater to professors with families. Single professors are more likely to quit because there's nothing to do in town and no one to date.


I've actually seen an empirical study on real estate agent hiring. The best sales people were people with families with a lot of debt -- the more debt, the more sales.

skyscan

SAME HERE

Luckily I have a job that doesn't need "set" hours that I need to be there doing my part. However, smoke breaks are common. Every department in the building gets breaks EXCEPT for the department I work in. Excuse me? Please explain! This is the EXACT explination I received "oh, well, (insert boss's name) doesn't believe in breaks."


Also, I've played the part of kid in many of these comments. My mother's priorities are like this (job > kids) I've always played second best to her job. Which, is fine with me. We enjoy the time we have together but she is going to be at work as long as it takes to get whatever she needs done, done. If that means working past midnight, so be it. If that means taking it on vacation, done. Kindof a bummer for me, but I understand her dedication.

Any comments on the "my department doesn't get breaks" issue?

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raeanna74

I totally agree that no one else at the workplace should be expected to change their workschedule because a parent wants a different one. It's rude to expect that and completely unfair. I don't think you should be given the 3rd degree. Single people should be given "mental health" days just as parents get time off because of the kids.

I believe there is no harm in asking if you would be willing to change your schedule but there should be no hard feelings if you simply don't want to.

Don't blame this one on the kids though. There are responsible people and there are irresponsible people. Those people who are taking off all the time for the kids are probably the ones that would be taking "sick" days and then be seen in the mall. Kids are just an excuse for this. I can recall 2 times hubby has stayed home in the past year because our daughter was sick. Both times it was because I was sick as well and unable to do everything myself. He doesn't take off just because she gets a cough. Granted I'm a SAHM but that shouldn't make a big difference. She would be in daycare if he was single.

There were some spots like that at ONE grocery store where we used to live. They were a godsend when I was recovering from a c-section and taking care of an infant at the same time. With children that can walk on their own and parents who aren't recovering from major surgery - well I personally wouldn't use the spots now and I would leave them for those that really need them. It's a matter of consideration for others and self-responsibility.

So many people lack any sense of responsibility now adays.

Don't give in and if they push you - go over their heads and complain about discrimination. It's not fair to you or anyone else for them to think they can do this.

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mikec

being an ex-smoker, and a supervisor, I have always encouraged employees to take "smoke" breaks, whether they smoke or not. It's not fair that a smoker can leave the office for a few and a non-smoker can't. Just wanted you to know there are some of us who see logic and reason, and want to be fair to the employees.

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MSD

When someone is hired for most jobs, they are asked what hours they can work. If schedules need to be adjusted, put people in during the hours they said they could work. If a kid gets sick and needs to be picked up, that's one thing, but asking to have the schedule rearranged around kids is neither professional nor appropriate.

Hard8s

Yeah, I know been to a few of those fair hiring classes. I also know that a sinfgle person has their own potential pitfalls as well. Just my own opinion, but I always go with who is best for the job. It has never come down to two people exactly the same, but one with a family.

Check with your states Labor Dept. but I think if you work 8 hrs. you are to have 2 - 15 min. breaks and a lunch period by law. If you work OT then you are to be given at least another break and possibly another meal break.

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