Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community  

Go Back   Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community > The Academy > Tilted Knowledge and How-To


 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 10-01-2003, 09:45 PM   #1 (permalink)
Loser
 
Why does hot water freeze quicker than cold water when placed in a freezer???

Hey there...I just learned that placing hot water in a freezer will freeze faster than placing cold water in a freezer...is this true??? If so then why is that so??? I would think that cold water would freeze quicker since it's closer to the freezing point than the hot water...plz give me info on this...THANX
C'YA ?:-D

EDIT: OK...now that it has been determined that hot water freezes faster than cold water...I have another question...why don't freezers use hot (or at least warm) water than cold water...ice cubes take too damn long to make...they need to make em faster...maybe they could at least use a setting or something

Last edited by Metallica_Band; 10-02-2003 at 10:33 AM..
Metallica_Band is offline  
Old 10-02-2003, 12:16 AM   #2 (permalink)
Cracking the Whip
 
Lebell's Avatar
 
Location: Sexymama's arms...
Ummm, no.

The transition phase of any substance, in this case, the transition of liquid H2O to solid H2O, involves removing molecular energy from the substance (i.e. heat). If a substance starts with more heat energy, it naturally will take longer to remove that energy than an equal mass of the same substance with less heat energy given an equal cooling rate.

This can be easily shown by the fact that both substances will have a given amount A of heat energy to radiate while the second substance will have A + B amounts to radiate.
__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." C. S. Lewis

The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU!

Please Donate!
Lebell is offline  
Old 10-02-2003, 01:18 AM   #3 (permalink)
Loser
 
Location: who the fuck cares?
Actually, Lebell, I hate to disagree with you, but:

Yes, it does. And here is why:

Taken from http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physic...hot_water.html
Quote:
Hot water can in fact freeze faster than cold water for a wide range of experimental conditions. This phenomenon is extremely counter- intuitive, and surprising even to most scientists, but it is in fact real. It has been seen and studied in numerous experiments. While this phenomenon has been known for centuries, and was described by Aristotle, Bacon, and Descartes, it was not introduced to the modern scientific community until 1969, by a Tanzanian high school student named Mpemba.

...

The phenomenon that hot water may freeze faster than cold is often called the Mpemba effect. Because, no doubt, most readers are extremely skeptical at this point, we should begin by stating precisely what we mean by the Mpemba effect. We start with two containers of water, which are identical in shape, and which hold identical amounts of water. The only difference between the two is that the water in one is at a higher (uniform) temperature than the water in the other. Now we cool both containers, using the exact same cooling process for each container. Under some conditions the initially warmer water will freeze first. If this occurs, we have seen the Mpemba effect. Of course, the initially warmer water will not freeze before the initially cooler water for all initial conditions. If the hot water starts at 99.9 C, and the cold water at 0.01 C, then clearly under those circumstances, the initially cooler water will freeze first. However, under some conditions the initially warmer water will freeze first -- if that happens, you have seen the Mpemba effect. But you will not see the Mpemba effect for just any initial temperatures, container shapes, or cooling conditions.
The rest of the article discusses experiments done, the possible causes for this phenomena, and much more.

It's funny this question was asked here because we had just been discussing this at work with some of the students.
JadziaDax is offline  
Old 10-02-2003, 01:50 AM   #4 (permalink)
Cracking the Whip
 
Lebell's Avatar
 
Location: Sexymama's arms...
Well dang.

I guess today is a good day; I learned something new.

Thanks JD!
__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." C. S. Lewis

The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU!

Please Donate!
Lebell is offline  
Old 10-02-2003, 02:05 AM   #5 (permalink)
Insane
 
Location: In a huge maze just trying to find my cheese
Could it be one of those strange hydrogen bonding phenomenons? It's been awhile since I did any series chemistry so I'm not going to conjecture any further than that, but that little hydrogen bond there in water makes for some odd properties. My favorite is the greater density as a liquid than a solid.
Great Scott is offline  
Old 10-02-2003, 05:01 AM   #6 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: NJ
Perhaps, in some circumstances, it is easier to get the cooling process going in warm water and more difficult in others. Kind of like pushing a weight down an incline. One with the top half coated in sand paper and the bottom half in teflon vs another incline with the top half made of plastic and the bottom in teflon. It would be far easier to get the weight on the plastic moving toward the teflon than the one on the sandpaper. Once they reach the teflon they both travel at the same rate but the one that started on plastic has a head start.
__________________
Strive to be more curious than ignorant.
onetime2 is offline  
Old 10-02-2003, 05:07 AM   #7 (permalink)
Talk nerdy to me
 
God of Thunder's Avatar
 
Location: Flint, MI
That is probably why they use hot water on the back of a Zamboni.
__________________
I reject your reality, and substitute my own

-- Adam Savage
God of Thunder is offline  
Old 10-02-2003, 05:23 AM   #8 (permalink)
Rookie
 
cliche's Avatar
 
Location: Oxford, UK
Back in the real world:

So what shape do I need to make my ice-cube tray? And what temperature water should I put in it? I need a gin and tonic, quickly...
__________________
I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones. -- John Cage (1912 - 1992)
cliche is offline  
Old 10-02-2003, 07:42 AM   #9 (permalink)
Insane
 
Location: The Internet
It has everything to do with H-H bonding. As strange as it is .. energy is required for polar water molecules to form a lattice structure. Screwed up .. but true!

Here's an aside: did you know that when it rains, the air temperature actially increases? This is due to the breaking of H-H bonds as the water falls. Engery released is in the form of heat.

Odd .. but true!
__________________
rm -f /bin/laden
Sapper is offline  
Old 10-02-2003, 10:15 AM   #10 (permalink)
Banned
 
Location: UCSD
God of Thunder, the reason why they use hot water in zambonis is because the hot water melts the top layer of ice creating not just a layer of new ice, but making the rink a solid block. Some of the scratches that skates put in ice cannot be covered well unless the ice is remelted, so that is the zambonis job.

/hockey nut
numist_net is offline  
Old 10-02-2003, 10:16 AM   #11 (permalink)
No. It's not done yet.
 
BonesCPA's Avatar
 
Location: sorta kinda phila
Quote:
Originally posted by God of Thunder
That is probably why they use hot water on the back of a Zamboni.
Actually I believe that the hot water is used to melt the top layer of existing ice and allow the newer, warmer water combine and form a more solid composition. You wouldn't want sections of ice flaking off because they didn't bond right to the previous surface.
__________________
Back into hibernation.

Last edited by BonesCPA; 10-09-2003 at 11:35 AM..
BonesCPA is offline  
Old 10-02-2003, 05:49 PM   #12 (permalink)
With a mustache, the cool factor would be too much
 
Fremen's Avatar
 
Location: left side of my couch, East Texas
Quote:
Originally posted by cliche
Back in the real world:

So what shape do I need to make my ice-cube tray? And what temperature water should I put in it? I need a gin and tonic, quickly...
The normal rectangular shape should work and you want your water warm-hot from the tap or heated from bottled water.
If I'm not mistaken, some companies make a hot-water dispenser to sit with the cool-water dispenser.
__________________
Google
Fremen is offline  
Old 10-03-2003, 12:18 AM   #13 (permalink)
Sleepy Head
 
dylanmarsh's Avatar
 
Here's my theory on the whole thing:

the hot water cools at a more rapid rate due to it trying to cool the environment around it. the cold water is so close to the freezing point to begin with that it does it slower.

This is much the way our hands get cold handling object during the winter time. Our hands are losing heat by trying to warm the object they are holding. There's a specific term for this but I can't remember it right now.
dylanmarsh is offline  
Old 10-03-2003, 06:16 AM   #14 (permalink)
Invisible
 
yournamehere's Avatar
 
Location: tentative, at best
<i>"Of course, the initially warmer water will not freeze before the initially cooler water for all initial conditions."</i>

If a specific result does not happen in <i>all</i> tested , controlled conditions, then scientifically speaking - nothing has been proven.

But of course - I have no personal stake in this - I drink my beer cold, and my wine at room temperature. Beyond that, my quest for knowledge ends.
__________________
If you want to avoid 95% of internet spelling errors:
"If your ridiculous pants are too loose, you're definitely going to lose them. Tell your two loser friends over there that they're going to lose theirs, too."
It won't hurt your fashion sense, either.
yournamehere is offline  
Old 10-03-2003, 09:37 AM   #15 (permalink)
IC3
Poison
 
IC3's Avatar
 
Location: Canada
I am gonna try this out..And if it works for me, I am gonna be making some bets with alot of people.

IC3 is offline  
Old 10-03-2003, 12:41 PM   #16 (permalink)
Insane
 
Location: a van, down by the river
Initially, I thought bull. But, here are some good explanations for why this may occur.

http://www.newscientist.com/lastword...e.jsp?id=lw236
chodarama is offline  
Old 10-03-2003, 12:42 PM   #17 (permalink)
!?!No hay pantalones!?!
 
saltfish's Avatar
 
Location: Indian-no-place
From what I can remember, there are a few things to keep in mind.

Hot water is more willing to give off it's heat due to vapor pressure of the increased temperature. Every time you see water giving off 'steam/vapor' it is in effect cooling istself to reach an equlibrium. (with the room temp)

2nd, hot water has less dissolved gas than cold water. You can easlily illustrate this point by taking 2 20oz bottles of diet coke. Place one of them in the very back bottom of your fridge. Place the other on on top, outside the fridge. After 24 hours gather the warm and cold bottles and open them. You will notice a LOUD pffffffft comming from the warm bottle, and you will notice barely any from the one that was in the fridge. The colder the water the more readily it can hold dissolved gasses. The warm bottle of pop can't hold as much dissolved gas, at room temp or higher it is super saturated, though it can hold it in suspension due to the pressure inside the sealed bottle. As soon as you open the bottle you are equalizing the pressure between the liquids surface and the surrounding atmosphere.

So, as I digress...

...disolved gas in a water impeded the 'hydrogren-bonding' involved with the freezing process. You can do another simple experiment to see the difference. If you were to take a cup of water and boil it in the microwave and take a cup of water directly out of the tap and freeze them both, you will notice that the one that came from the tap will be cloudy. Whereas the cup of water that you boiled will be almost crystal-clear. The couldiness is the dissolved gasses that impeaded in the hydrogen bonding as the water molecules crystalized during the freezing process. (The clear ice is stronger, the cloudy ice will have a tendency to cleave if stressed)

So overall, the hotter water will freeze faster than the cold water due to both the rapid energy lost due to the decreased vapor pressure as well as the lack of dissolved gasses.



-SF
saltfish is offline  
Old 10-03-2003, 01:03 PM   #18 (permalink)
Upright
 
I've always wondered by it seems warm when there it is snowing out compared to other cold days in winter, I thought it might have been since clouds were trapping heat or that I just felt happy that it was snowing but I supposed what you said about it heating up when it rains also applies to snowfall.
gophtc is offline  
Old 10-03-2003, 07:37 PM   #19 (permalink)
Indifferent to anti-matter
 
vermin's Avatar
 
Location: Tucson, AZ
I always thought that the heat from the hot water in the ice tray triggered the thermostat sensor in the freezer causing the freon pump to run, the freezer to get colder, and then the water freezes faster from the harder working freezing apparatus. But the dissolved gas thing makes sense, too.
__________________
If puns were sausages, this would be the wurst.
vermin is offline  
Old 10-05-2003, 08:00 AM   #20 (permalink)
Crazy
 
AxelF's Avatar
 
Location: Europe
Vermin, your unscientific theory was so cool since no scientist would have liked it, or even come up with it! Common sense thinking.

But my senses are even more common. Guys, broaden your minds a bit. Naturally this has its explanation in that when as soon these tests are done, one alien says to another "look at that kindergarten science - I just have to screw with them and freeze the hot water. Makes me laugh every time! Irk irk irk irk..."
__________________
Coffee
AxelF is offline  
Old 10-05-2003, 06:43 PM   #21 (permalink)
Psycho
 
opentocomments's Avatar
 
Location: St. Louis
if u want ice to freeze extra fast add tiny bits of ice to them bc the real thing that slows the freezing isnt getting it to the right temperature its begining the crystalization thats why phenominons like hypercooling happen where somthing cools below its freezing point befor it begins to freeze it has no crystals to modle itself after. Id like to thank either 10th or 11th grade science for that one
__________________
How do we know that the sky is not green and we are all color-blind?
opentocomments is offline  
Old 10-08-2003, 08:29 AM   #22 (permalink)
Redwing fan extraordinaire
 
Location: Michigan
I always just though the hot water evaporated out so now there was less to freeze. I never was too bright though.
__________________
Its good to be back.
Midlandmadman is offline  
Old 10-08-2003, 01:03 PM   #23 (permalink)
Junkie
 
I'm geussing that the energy transfer results in a greater loss of energy in hot water than in cooler water, so that the hot will lose it's heat faster and as a result spread the effect more quickly throughout itself speeding up the process of freezing to such a rate that it far exceeds that of the cool water. I hope that made some sense.
Xell101 is offline  
Old 10-10-2003, 11:08 PM   #24 (permalink)
Upright
 
What does it mean Basil?

Lead is an odorless, tasteless, soft, gray metal. On exposure to air, lead is rapidly covered with a film of oxide, hydroxide, and carbonate. Similarly, when lead is exposed to water with dissolved oxygen, lead hydroxide, sulfate and carbonate are formed. A small amount of the salts then pass into solution. Lead salts are found in air, food, household dust and soil. If ingested or inhaled over a period of time, lead and its salts may cause serious internal damage such as impaired kidneys, nervoussystem and red blood cells. Particularly susceptible to the toxic metal or salts aresmall children.

Lead gets into the drinking water through the use of lead-containing pipes, solder, brass and chrome-plated faucets. The homes most likely to have a lead problem are older houses with lead pipes and homes with lead service lines.

The hotter the water the more soluble it is, thus hot tap water has the chance to cary more deposits.

When being heated, organic compounds in water, such as iron or manganese, can oxidize; this oxidation has the potential to cause discoloring or an off taste.

While this depends entirely on the tap water. I myself don't feel the need to save five minutes boiling water by using hot tap water, at the expense of even a slight change in taste. Or an off chance risk of health.

While something like boiling an egg probably won't matter. Some say it does in delicate foods like pastas.

my 2 cent
hundred-peons is offline  
Old 10-11-2003, 01:49 PM   #25 (permalink)
!?!No hay pantalones!?!
 
saltfish's Avatar
 
Location: Indian-no-place
Quote:

:While this depends entirely on the tap water. I myself don't feel the need to save five minutes boiling water by using hot tap water, at the expense of even a slight change in taste. Or an off chance risk of health."

Boiling water to turn around and freeze it is an extreme.

There is even a difference between 60F water and 120F water and the time that it takes them to freeze. (Tap v. Hot Tap)

-SF
saltfish is offline  
Old 10-11-2003, 01:54 PM   #26 (permalink)
!?!No hay pantalones!?!
 
saltfish's Avatar
 
Location: Indian-no-place
Hundred-Peons,

I'd make sure that you credit the author of your word-for-word cut and paste job. You never know who will defend their copyright.

http://www.rohmhaas.com/company/plab...fdocs/lead.pdf

-SF
saltfish is offline  
Old 10-11-2003, 01:57 PM   #27 (permalink)
Upright
 
Location: Western Massachusetts
that was way cool, intersting and informative....thanx!
__________________
FuKkiT
Juxtapozed is offline  
Old 10-12-2003, 01:36 PM   #28 (permalink)
Like John Goodman, but not.
 
Journeyman's Avatar
 
Location: SFBA, California
Quote:
Originally posted by opentocomments
if u want ice to freeze extra fast add tiny bits of ice to them bc the real thing that slows the freezing isnt getting it to the right temperature its begining the crystalization thats why phenominons like hypercooling happen where somthing cools below its freezing point befor it begins to freeze it has no crystals to modle itself after. Id like to thank either 10th or 11th grade science for that one

I'd like to thank Kurt Vonnegut's concept of Ice-9 for making that concept incredibly easy to understand.
Journeyman is offline  
Old 10-13-2003, 11:05 AM   #29 (permalink)
Bokonist
 
Location: Location, Location, Location...
I dont the true answer, but it always made sense in my mind that, since water was the only molecule whose volume actually expands when in solid form...that since the molecules are farther away when warmer, the ice would not have to spend as much energy to move them apart....that being said, as I type this, it seems silly.

lol
__________________
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before.
He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way."
-Kurt Vonnegut
zenmaster10665 is offline  
Old 10-13-2003, 02:22 PM   #30 (permalink)
Tone.
 
shakran's Avatar
 
There's a good demonstration of this you can try in the middle of winter if you live in a really cold place. It has to be REALLY cold to pull this off - we're talkin' 15, 20 below. Get a pitcher full of cold water and throw it outside. Then do the same thing with a pitcher of hot water. Notice how the hot water doesn't even hit the ground? It just explodes in a cloud of steam. This is because it's freezing instantly, whereas the cold water is not.

Reason behind it is the same as in the freezer - greater surface area due to the expansion of the molecules.
shakran is offline  
Old 10-13-2003, 03:14 PM   #31 (permalink)
!?!No hay pantalones!?!
 
saltfish's Avatar
 
Location: Indian-no-place
Hey, this shall settle the arguement!

-SF

http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/explan.html (Go to #31)

http://www.school-for-champions.com/science/mpemba.htm

The top one is scientific, where the bottom one is more of a guide to recreate the experiment.
saltfish is offline  
Old 10-13-2003, 06:25 PM   #32 (permalink)
Banned
 
So what Saltfishes link is saying is that hot water appears to freeze first because of the temperature differntials, but it will not actually become solid ice faster, but slower. So if you want to say create ice cubes, use cold water because it will form solid ice quicker. Less ice is formed by hot water in the same period of time, it just appears first. So no, hot water does not actually freeze faster, it just appears to. Don't let appearances get in the way of logic.
pocon1 is offline  
Old 10-15-2003, 06:30 AM   #33 (permalink)
Bokonist
 
Location: Location, Location, Location...
I think what saltfish's article is saying is that, during the supercooled timeperiod, the water remains in the liquid state. This is what supercooling is. According to the graph, the supercool state for hot water is much shorter than for cold water, therefore the hot water will become a solid once equilibrium has been reached at the freezing point. It is also asserted that this is assisted by dissolved gases in hotter water, as nucleation will bring any supercooled substance out of the supercooled state very quickly.



So, at the end of the day, assuming nucleation is the same in both situations (or no nucleation at all,) Hot water truly does become a solid faster.
__________________
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before.
He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way."
-Kurt Vonnegut
zenmaster10665 is offline  
 

Tags
cold, freeze, freezer, hot, quicker, water

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 03:46 AM.

Tilted Forum Project

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
© 2002-2012 Tilted Forum Project

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360