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Old 06-23-2009, 07:52 PM   #1 (permalink)
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can anyone really argue the whole "nice guys finish last" predicament?

I am one of those nice guys. The guys that meet an incredible girl, fall fast, and then dont get the girl. It has happened time and time again to me, and I cant get it to stop. I compliment the girl, make her smile, make her laugh, do everything I can to get her to like me, and then she picks someone else. It never fails.

So, can anyone really argue that "nice guys finish last?"
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Old 06-23-2009, 08:04 PM   #2 (permalink)
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The following link should be taken as a half-joke response to common issue:

Dude, check out >>> THIS <<<

...

No, seriously... search around TFP and you'll find a lot of advice and stories related to this topic.
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Old 06-23-2009, 08:15 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djtobia View Post
I am one of those nice guys. The guys that meet an incredible girl, fall fast, and then dont get the girl. It has happened time and time again to me, and I cant get it to stop. I compliment the girl, make her smile, make her laugh, do everything I can to get her to like me, and then she picks someone else. It never fails.

So, can anyone really argue that "nice guys finish last?"
Well Dj, I can tell you why this is happening, and why that argument will never be proven. Let's go sentence by sentence.

Quote:
The guys that meet an incredible girl, fall fast, and then dont get the girl.
The quality you just described, this ability to "fall fast", isn't because you develop feelings for a girl that fast. It's conditioning. I'd say that you probably don't think highly of yourself, and that's a guess because I don't know you, but I'd say it's probable.

What's really happening, assuming again, is that you are "falling in love with the idea" of that girl. All the pre-conceptions and contrived ideals and "facts" you "know" about love, twisted to "fit" this girl. My guess is that you often feel under appreciated, annoyed because of this, and start acting differently within this relationship you've developed. That's one reason why you're losing. Moving on.

Quote:
It has happened time and time again to me, and I cant get it to stop. I compliment the girl, make her smile, make her laugh, do everything I can to get her to like me, and then she picks someone else. It never fails.
There is a particular couple of words I'd like to highlight. Like this sentence: "do everything I can to get her to like me". Or: "I compliment the girl". Starting with the first, then the latter. People know people; when you try to cheat the system, they can tell. You "molding" yourself to fit the ideal man for this woman, or women, is another form of lying. It comes off as desperate (all lies are) and unattractive. It shows you have no confidence in your abilities or traits.

I compliment the girl, I bet, is actually "I say nice things about her constantly, or at least consistently, hoping she'll notice what kind of guy I am". Those aren't compliments, that is manipulation.

Quote:
It never fails.
You are "building a persona" which will a) never work, b) leave you stuck personally, and c) fuck with your head. Be yourself. Even if you are the biggest, geekiest, fattest, ugliest, troll without any personality to speak of, it's better to see you be honest about it then try to compensate. Because that's what you're doing.

You're not being nice. You're compensating.
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Old 06-23-2009, 08:18 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Hint: You don't get shot down because you are a Nice Guy (TM). You get shot down because You Need To Grow A Pair.

Nice guys don't finish last. Timid guys who refuse to make a move do.

You compliment her, make her smile and make her laugh. Have you ever tried, I don't know, asking her out on a date?

DISCLAIMER: This is all said in the kindest way possible. No hurt feelings intended. It is gentle correction and not dickstomping.


...

Serious Discussion:

There's a whole other topic here about the societal pressures on men vs. women in the world of dating. Whether men are expected to make the first move and why, where the balance of power lies for the duration of the Mating Dance, etc etc. This is all well and good and interesting. But at the end of the day we can sit here and talk all of this shit out, then I'm going to go climb into bed with my girlfriend while you climb into bed with your cat.

Nobody ever got a girl by being a nice guy, but that doesn't mean nice guys don't get girls. If the nice guy is too shy to actually make a move on a girl, then the problem is his and not 'women want assholes.'

I think it was the great Sultana who said "you can't just sit around and wait for a girl to fall onto your dick."

EDIT: Also, everything Thespian86 said.

It may not look like it at first glance, but we're actually saying the same thing. Confidence is the key issue. Cajoling and wheedling and making half-assed compliments does not show confidence. Saying to a girl 'you have beautiful eyes and I'd love to get to know you better over dinner' does. Being yourself and letting the girl know who you are does, too.
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Old 06-23-2009, 08:19 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Where is Sultana, anyway?

...

Wait, I've got her phone number.
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Old 06-23-2009, 08:20 PM   #6 (permalink)
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You need to go back in the TFP archives and find a grand old thread started by Plan9.

In fact, I'll link you to it.

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/hall-fa...rls-101-a.html
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Old 06-23-2009, 08:29 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Thank you for all the advice. Hopefully it will help, even remotely.
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Old 06-23-2009, 08:36 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Why does Plan9 come up every time one of these threads come by?

Hint: Relationships Are Not A Game.

The whole player mentality is just another type of facade. While it works with a specific subset of women and will help with a specific goal pertaining to that specific subset of women, if the woman you desire is outside of that subset (or if you desire a specific woman, or if you're looking for more than to get laid) 90% of it is useless.

Really, it's just a matter of believing in yourself. Figure out what you're good at, do it well. Be passionate about it. Dress properly, bathe, get a decent haircut and shave every day or keep your beard neatly trimmed. Avoid sentences like 'I like your breasts' or 'Want to come over and see my level 70 elf?'

This is not difficult.
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Old 06-23-2009, 08:41 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martian View Post
Why does Plan9 come up every time one of these threads come by?
Clearly it's his awesome avatar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martian View Post
'Want to come over and see my level 70 elf?'
I've seen that work. Granted, it wasn't the kind of sex you'd videotape.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djtobia View Post
Thank you for all the advice. Hopefully it will help, even remotely.
You know what you need, bro? The same thing I needed at the beginning of this year. You need to occupy yourself with interests, hobbies, and challenges outside of the hot-hot in-search-of-woman realm. Don't get bogged down in the swamp of speed dating in an attempt to find and maintain a relationship you're not ready to handle. Women smell pathetic like piranha smell wounded animals. Sure, it's fun at first, but then it gets a little bit like trying on sweaters for hours outside in July. No fun. I should know, I killed an entire paycheck on meals with girls before I figured coffee is cheaper.

I guarantee the second you get yourself balls deep into a hobby like karate, a motorcycle club, or take up shooting expensive military-style rifles at steel plates... you'll either meet a girl that sees you doing something that all women like: focusing on and enjoying an activity... or you'll be so distracted by said activity that it will be largely irrelevant who's hand jerks you off at night. You gotta have a job, solid interests, guy friends... these things will build the I Am This Guy foundation you need to be successful in a relationship with one of those delicious bipedal creatures that look better in a skirt than I do.
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Old 06-23-2009, 08:41 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crompsin View Post
I've seen that work. Granted, it was the kind of sex you'd videotape.
Well, obviously if there's a financial exchange involved you can use whatever bloody line you want.

I've heard some pretty bad ones. Ex-girlfriend got back from the bar one night, and told me about a guy who actually tried to pick her up using 'you with these curves, and me with no brakes.'

I play guitar, and wear a cool hat. I Cannot Relate to the OP.

EDIT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crompsin
You know what you need, bro? The same thing I needed at the beginning of this year. You need to occupy yourself with interests, hobbies, and challenges outside of the hot-hot in-search-of-woman realm. Don't get bogged down in the swamp of speed dating. It's fun at first, but then it gets a little bit like trying on sweaters for hours outside in July.

I guarantee the second you get yourself balls deep into a hobby like karate, motorcycle a club, or take up shooting expensive military-style rifles at steel plates... you'll either meet a girl that sees you doing something that all women like: focusing on and enjoying an activity... or you'll be so distracted by said activity that it will be largely irrelevant who's hand jerks you off at night. You gotta have a job, solid interests, guy friends... these things will build the I Am This Guy foundation you need to be successful in a relationship with one of those delicious bipedal creatures that typically don't have facial hair.
Yes.

I am a musician. Crompsin shoots things. thespian86 puts on make-up and sings show tunes, and gets more tail than the rest of us put together.

This is what I mean. Find something to make you an Interesting Person, focus on that. Don't go pick up a guitar because you want to meet chicks, though -- do it because it's something you're interested in.

Become a whole person, and the woman thing will sort itself out.
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Old 06-23-2009, 08:49 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martian View Post
don't go pick up a guitar because you want to meet chicks, though -- do it because it's something you're interested in.
I said, Maybe... you're gonna be the one that saves me...
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Old 06-23-2009, 08:50 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I Will Teach You Three Chords And They Will Change Your Life.

Ahh, Crompsin. We have to stop destroying threads like this. It's bad for morale.
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Old 06-23-2009, 10:13 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I gotta kind of concur with Martian and Crompsin.

Listen, dude. I am a nice guy, and I used to finish last a lot. I have so been there. When I was young (high school, college, and thereabouts), I lost a mess of girls to hesitation, lack of self-confidence, and an unwillingness to be proactive in my dating strategies. These things changed when I (a) studied acting, (b) learned the broadsword, and (c) began writing poetry. Acting taught me self-confidence and self-acceptance-- and nothing makes a girl more want to change your mind than you appearing to be just fine without her. The broadsword taught me fearlessness and strength, and gave me one hell of a quirky hobby to mention. And chicks dig poetry, and men sensitive enough to write it and be unashamed fans of the art.

You have to focus on self-acceptance, self-confidence, and having things in your life that you do that are fun, that build skills, that occupy your time, and that give you a more well-rounded personality. Be yourself, only aggressively so, unashamedly so, and have fun doing so. Chicks will seek you out.

How do I know that works? Because I am engaged to marry an awesome, hot, smart chick, whom I just shagged like a 60s carpet. Trust me: that is what works.
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Old 06-24-2009, 12:27 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I have to say, I kinda love the way you guys give advice.
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Old 06-24-2009, 12:33 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CinnamonGirl View Post
I have to say, I kinda love the way you guys give advice.
Bullshit, go read the thread I linked above. Then come back and reevaluate your comment.
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Old 06-24-2009, 12:34 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Now, don't be hasty. I can see what she means, I think.

We should get a radio show.
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Old 06-24-2009, 01:00 AM   #17 (permalink)
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She's referring to this thread.

That and I'm not being serious.

...

I need to stop talking to you, Martian.

You keep me up all night long.
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Old 06-24-2009, 01:13 AM   #18 (permalink)
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I too am a nice guy (or so I am told). The way you get anything in life while being a nice guy is to, as Martian suggests, grow a pair. You can be forthright without ceasing to be a "nice" guy.

You just need to go for it.

This has served me well with women, careers and buffet dinners.
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Old 06-24-2009, 01:14 AM   #19 (permalink)
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...buffet dinners.
Heh... I just got a really interesting imagine off that one.
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Old 06-24-2009, 02:00 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Don't get near my hunger... it will squash you Big Jim.
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Old 06-24-2009, 04:55 AM   #21 (permalink)
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You know, I don't know if anyone else remembers this, and I know I've posted about it before. For a while, a brief while, there was a little subforum dedicated to discussing the 'gender divide' or what have you, differences between men and women and so forth. Contained within it was this little jewel of thread originally titled 'why nice guys don't get the girl', or something to that effect it was later retitled -with good cause- but more on that later. (please god: someone, anyone, remember that thread?)

I want emphasize one of the most wonderful realizations I've ever witnessed on the TFP that occurred in that thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djtobia
It has happened time and time again to me, and I cant get it to stop. I compliment the girl, make her smile, make her laugh, do everything I can to get her to like me, and then she picks someone else.
The problem isn't that you aren't getting the girls, you're probably swimming in girls they're just all 'good friends'. You said it yourself, it happens time and time again, you push her buttons (the good ones) make her laugh, feel comfortable, smile, whatever. Girls that don't like you don't do those things.

I know, I was there, I've seen this bit before. I was swimming in girls, the problem I had, that I couldn't quite put my finger on was simply this: of all the girls I had, or nearly had, whatever, none of them were letting me do the naughty fun stuff with them. Those things she only does with the 'other guy' that she's always picking. (Bitch .). That sound more like your problem?
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Old 06-24-2009, 05:08 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Just keep at it.
Truly nice guys don't finish last.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Martian View Post
... 'Want to come over and see my level 70 elf?'...
This would actually work on a girl like me. I love watching people play video games. And any excuse to see his place in a non-threatening air is a plus.
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Old 06-24-2009, 08:40 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crompsin View Post
I need to stop talking to you, Martian.

You keep me up all night long.
Warning: Bromance Imminent!

The feeling's mutual, Crompsie-poo.

...I wish I could quit you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by genuinegirly
This would actually work on a girl like me. I love watching people play video games. And any excuse to see his place in a non-threatening air is a plus.
My preferred method is to make it clear that I'm interested in a relationship, take her out, and invite her back afterwards. It's worked so far.

Non-threatening is good. Sending out psycho killer vibes is not a way to get anywhere with a woman. On the flip side, sending out 'I'm not going to ever try to make a move' vibes is also bad.

Pretending you're not interested in a lady when you actually are is at best dishonest, and will not help you to get women.
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I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

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Old 06-24-2009, 08:49 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by genuinegirly View Post
love watching people play video games.
TEACH ME.

I love to -be- watched playing videogames. I find watching others play utterly dull ><. And, to be fair to others, I have to learn to share xD
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Old 06-24-2009, 09:30 AM   #25 (permalink)
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yeah the best thing you can do sometimes in life, and our whole lives we are brainwashed to feel differently, is not to try. Or, in this case, focus your attention on something that will help you progress further in life, rather then restrict your growth. Stuff like forcing personality traits on yourself, no matter how desirable the trait, will constantly result in two things:

1) You're going to be uncomfortable with it and ultimately unhappy.
2) Women, I'm convinced they are the smartest creatures on earth, will see through your feeble attempt to seem interesting and leave.

And it all comes down to what Mart and Cromp have been saying: confidence man. Confidence. And where does confidence come from? Being comfortable. Knowing the beast before you strike it means it's just part of life, and not some epic battle.

My biggest observation of men around my age is that they think the beast in that metaphor is women, when really it's yourself.

---------- Post added at 02:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:16 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by genuinegirly View Post
Just keep at it.
Truly nice guys don't finish last.
To add, I love GG. A lot. She has a way of using a couple of words and getting across exactly what I want to say. I'm always worried some minimalist comment won't get through to someone (that's something I'M working on). And I may be misinterpreting what she is saying, in fact I know I am, but her sentiment fits what I'm trying to get across.

The word "truly" is TRULY inspired [ba dum csh]. Truly implies Truthfully. And my question is, although I feel like I already know the answer, is how truthful are you actually being with these women? I don't mean do they fit the person you are when you're being 'social', I mean do they fit the person you are when no one is around. When you are at home enjoying something. Are those the things that lead your life? Is that what you build your social life around? Because, if not, and I suspect this is where your problem lies, you are going to feel "out of place" or "like I've lost" all the time. If WOW is your thing, it makes sense that meeting some high maintenance girl, with a penchant for shopping and going out to bars most likely (I won't COMPLETELY generalize the two people) won't be what you need, but because she's pretty and dresses in expensive clothing you melt.

Quote:
I am a musician. Crompsin shoots things. thespian86 puts on make-up and sings show tunes, and gets more tail than the rest of us put together.
Quoted for truth sir. You know why? I do a mean Dagger, have whiskey soaked tenor tones, and trained in contemporary dance for years. All of those things, when I left football for theatre, were "gay" and "stupid" and "[enter derogatory word that teen males use to keep each other down]". But I thought, fuck them, I like what I do. In fact, in my mind, it's the first thing that matters. Even if Mandy Moore (number one on my list of five) were to hit on me, and I was in the middle of rehearsal, I'd flirt back but my focus wouldn't be on impressing her after we spoke, it would be on creating my best work. That's probably one of my only admirable qualities.

And that is what men do. Nice men do it without making other people feel burned.
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Old 06-24-2009, 09:49 AM   #26 (permalink)
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From the last "Nice Guy" thread. I've been saying this in some form for years (after realizing that being a "nice guy" was my entire problem) and I'm pretty content to just copy and paste it at this point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSD View Post
Why do Nice Guys(TM) never get the girl? Because they're Nice Guys(TM) (hereafter abbreviated "NG") and not just nice guys. I consider being a NG a personality disorder. The NG has it in his mind that nice guys finish last, and sees himself as a sort of tragic hero. He's not just what women want, he's what they need, he's better than all those other guys out there, he'll treat them like they deserve to be treated. This breaks down into our first two major problems with the NG.

First, women want a man, not a doormat. They want to be treated as equals, not put on a pedestal and worshipped. If he gets into a relationship with this mindset, the NG will range from clingy and creepy to outright codependent. As much as he professes to understand women and their needs and wants, he will become insecure and jealous when they don't return his unconditional love and dedication. The other extreme is that he will become disillusioned and jaded with a relationship that isn't the fairy tale he envisioned, and grow resentful and misogynistic and extol the virtue and truth of Ladder Theory.

Second, the NG thinks that being nice is enough, that women will be attracted to him because of his personality, but he always ends up in the "friend zone." He ends up there for one or both of two reasons: one is that he's deluded himself into thinking that being nice is all that matters and fails to develop any other redeeming qualities; the other is that he hasn't developed the emotional intelligence to realize that he needs to be proactive in seeking non-platonic relationships.

This leads him into a downward spiral of being the guy whose female friends see him as a big brother who they can go to for help with their problems. They genuinely like him as a friend and assume that since he hasn't shown any outward signs of interest that he feels the same way toward them. Meanwhile, our NG sits by, assuming that his friends know how he feels waiting for the day when they realize that they don't want the boyfriends they complain to him about, they want him. Some of these friends think he's a genuinely a good guy who wants to be there for them when they need someone to vent to, someone to help them out, a shoulder to cry one. A few may recognize him for the doormat that he is and take full advantage of it; sure, it's manipulative, but he's willing to be manipulated.

I guess it is kind of tragic in a way, because it's all his fault and he can't understand why.
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Old 06-25-2009, 12:09 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hektore View Post
I know, I was there, I've seen this bit before. I was swimming in girls, the problem I had, that I couldn't quite put my finger on was simply this: of all the girls I had, or nearly had, whatever, none of them were letting me do the naughty fun stuff with them. Those things she only does with the 'other guy' that she's always picking. (Bitch .). That sound more like your problem?
That is exactly my problem. I have so many friends, and all of them are awesome, but the girls that I always want to be more than friends don't go for me, even when I do tell them. It's not that I'm not confident, I do ask girls out on dates and I do tell them my feelings and all of that, its just that they always seem to find someone better at the last second.

As for the hobby the others spoke of, I am a musician as well, and am going to go to college for it. It has kept me occupied these last couple of months, I just get hit with emotion every now and then.

I thank all of you for the advice, I think it will truly help me.
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Old 06-25-2009, 12:59 AM   #28 (permalink)
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You say you are a musician... please tell me you play the guitar and not the tuba.
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Old 06-25-2009, 01:13 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by djtobia View Post
That is exactly my problem. I have so many friends, and all of them are awesome, but the girls that I always want to be more than friends don't go for me, even when I do tell them. It's not that I'm not confident, I do ask girls out on dates and I do tell them my feelings and all of that, its just that they always seem to find someone better at the last second.

As for the hobby the others spoke of, I am a musician as well, and am going to go to college for it. It has kept me occupied these last couple of months, I just get hit with emotion every now and then.

I thank all of you for the advice, I think it will truly help me.
I have a question. You say you're confident. Is that confidence like, "I have the balls to do scary shit" or is it confidence like, "I am comfortable with who I am" confidence?

They are different.
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Old 06-25-2009, 02:04 AM   #30 (permalink)
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I play piano sort of, steel drum, and bass. Not the tuba. haha


And I have the confidence in who I am, and the scary stuff confidence as well. Things just don't really work out for me.
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Old 06-25-2009, 03:42 AM   #31 (permalink)
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That is exactly my problem. -snip-
So then, if that's your problem, what you're finishing last at - is getting laid?
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Old 06-25-2009, 07:17 AM   #32 (permalink)
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It's not that I'm not confident, I do ask girls out on dates and I do tell them my feelings and all of that, its just that they always seem to find someone better at the last second.
You're either scaring them away by opening up too much and getting too attached, too quickly, or you think you're on a date and they think they're out with a friend.
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