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Old 01-21-2004, 01:39 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Martial Arts Help for Me Too

Like in the other thread, I'm also looking at getting into martial arts, but my needs are different.

The main reason for me to start martial arts is so I can be good at self defense. I don't want it to be a lifestyle or anything, I just want to get good at self defense.

I'm 6'2" and have a tiny bit of growth left in me, about 70 odd kg (very slim build), and I have little muscle mass (esp upper body). I have very slow twitch muscles, for example I'm useless at sprints but good at long distance running. I've just started working out muscle-wise so the martial art doesn't need to do this for me.

What martial arts would suit me?

Thanks
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Old 01-21-2004, 01:55 AM   #2 (permalink)
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aikido and jujutsu are well-suited for those who want to explore self-defense.

Aikido focuses on redirection of energy, such as using the force your opponent has created to try to punch you to over-extend him and do a throw. It can be considered a very internal art, with relaxation and empty-mind being the key to success. Very good for self-defense, as you learn to incapacitate your opponent without causing permanent damage. You will learn throws, joint locks, pressure points, and relaxation. At higher levels, many Aikidoka are taught to use and defend against the sword (you use a wooden bokken or training sword in practice). There is NO competitive aspect to aikido.

Jujutsu(or Jiu jutsu/jiu jitsu/ju jitsu) covers many of the same things as aikido, such as joint locks and throws, but explores submissions and grappling (wrestling) to a much greater extent. You may choose to enter the competitive side of jujutsu as well.

Since so many jujutsu schools focus on grappling now, strength is an asset in that style. From your height and weight, aikido might be better suited to your slim build.
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Old 01-21-2004, 11:44 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Old 01-22-2004, 02:21 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Could give Krav Maga a go for a pretty basic start in self defence for the street. It's meant to be pretty no-nonsense, and seems to be praised.
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Old 01-22-2004, 02:05 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Boxing and Jujitsu. Aikido takes a lot of commitment to be effective. Boxing and jujitsu are applicable from day 1.
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Old 01-22-2004, 04:50 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Dude, im 6'2 and just a little bit heavier than you. I do Muay Thai and western boxing and love it. The amount of stretching and fitness work is demanding, but is great for core strength and flexibility. Muay Thai and boxing really toughen you up, maybe its the thing for you.
Quote:
Originally posted by HunterDevourer
Could give Krav Maga a go for a pretty basic start in self defence for the street. It's meant to be pretty no-nonsense, and seems to be praised.
Ive heard of this too and it sounds pretty good. The military combative arts are reputed to very effective and practical too.

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Old 01-22-2004, 05:54 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I went to a lesson a while ago for krav maga to see what it was like. It seems like quite a practical style, but was a bit too expensive for my taste, and I am happy with Jeet Kune Do so I haven't gone again. But it'd be a good class for a quick and practical route to effective self defence.
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Old 01-23-2004, 05:42 AM   #8 (permalink)
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For self defense purposes look for the following schools:

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu
Japanese jujitsu
Pankration
Muay Thai
Krav maga
Boxing with Wrestling

AVOID these schools:
Karate
Kung Fu
Aikido
Tae Kwon Do
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Old 01-23-2004, 05:56 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by seizei
aikido and jujutsu are well-suited for those who want to explore self-defense.

Aikido focuses on redirection of energy, such as using the force your opponent has created to try to punch you to over-extend him and do a throw. It can be considered a very internal art, with relaxation and empty-mind being the key to success. Very good for self-defense, as you learn to incapacitate your opponent without causing permanent damage. You will learn throws, joint locks, pressure points, and relaxation. At higher levels, many Aikidoka are taught to use and defend against the sword (you use a wooden bokken or training sword in practice). There is NO competitive aspect to aikido.

Jujutsu(or Jiu jutsu/jiu jitsu/ju jitsu) covers many of the same things as aikido, such as joint locks and throws, but explores submissions and grappling (wrestling) to a much greater extent. You may choose to enter the competitive side of jujutsu as well.

Since so many jujutsu schools focus on grappling now, strength is an asset in that style. From your height and weight, aikido might be better suited to your slim build.
The thing about Aikido is that it doesn't work. Yes they train joint manipulations, wrist locks and throws, however they only practice these techniques against co-operating opponents. There is no way to determine whether these techniques would work unless you train them against someone who is trying to HURT you. I went to an aikido school just to check it out and had a very hard time keeping myself from laughing. Avoid Aikido at all costs.

Also, all jiu-jitsu/jujitsu is NOT the same. Japanese jujitsu is much more self defense related than Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Japanese jujitsu allows some striking and the focus is not on sport competition. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu comes from Judo and unlike Japanese jujitsu it does not allow striking and is based primarily upon grappling. BJJ is VERY effective in chokes and joint manipulations such as armbars, kneebars, heel hooks, and shoulder locks. Also in BJJ there is an emphasis on competition. This allowsyou to test your skills againt other people whose goal it is to hurt you.

BJJ is getting more popular due to the UFC and PRIDE fighting competitions, if you live in a major area there should be some schools you can go check out and see if you like what you see. Japanese jujitsu is harder to find, but it is usually pretty effective for self defense as well.
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Old 01-23-2004, 01:52 PM   #10 (permalink)
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ok bullshit statements about how a martial art 'doesn't work' piss me right off.

First off, no martial art 'doesn't work'. You study any martial art in the world long enough and with enough dedication, and you will gain the understanding of movement and emotion that will allow you to defend yourself should the situation arise.

Sure, if you're going to go to some classes for 6 months and then declare yourself 'finished', then you will suck, and yes, the art you have studied will NOT work. Maybe you'd have a slight advantage if you studied at some 'turn you into killers overnight' school that flashed the bling bling techniques in front of you on your first class.

Take your heads out of your asses, turn off you Ultimate Fighting Championship tape, and respect the fact that these 'useless' traditional martial arts have been around for many many years - certainly before this retarded brazilian jujutsu/grappling fad.

It is the individual that defines his/her abilities, not the art.
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Old 01-23-2004, 02:17 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by seizei
ok bullshit statements about how a martial art 'doesn't work' piss me right off.

First off, no martial art 'doesn't work'. You study any martial art in the world long enough and with enough dedication, and you will gain the understanding of movement and emotion that will allow you to defend yourself should the situation arise.

If you study an art like Aikido that only uses co-operating partners to practice techniques, how is that going to help you in a real life situation where the other guy is trying to actually break your arm or choke you out? A person in Aikido would have no experience in a situation like this and would be ill-prepared.

The person who started this thread is interested in self-defense. If he was interested in having fun, getting in shape, and learning some moves that MIGHT help him fight off an 80 year old woman, then yes Aikido would be an acceptable choice.
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Old 01-24-2004, 12:43 AM   #12 (permalink)
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I dont know enough about aikido to really comment on its usefulness, but im sure its a worthwhile art- its been around for a long time. I guess the only way you will find out is to try it out.
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Old 01-24-2004, 09:04 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Personaly, I have a slightly larger build than you but as for martial arts styles for you, I can recommend the following. Capoeira will give you a SERIOUS boost in agility (its the brazillian fighting style that is done to rythm and music) its not the most practical art, but it is good for agility and conditionin. As for a primary style for defense, for someone of your build I would say Kung-Fu and or Aikido, since they offer the most options to lighter people. Good luck and good hunting.
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Old 01-24-2004, 12:36 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisJericho
If you study an art like Aikido that only uses co-operating partners to practice techniques, how is that going to help you in a real life situation where the other guy is trying to actually break your arm or choke you out?
When you are training and learning the techniques and concepts, you do use cooperative partners. It takes time to go from a level of learning to one of understanding.

Once you understand a concept, however, it can become engrained into your mind, so that you can use it without thinking. The concepts you learn are based on body mechanics. For example, if an arm is kept bent at a 90 degree angle and rotated outwards, the natural body response is to arch the back. If you keep that force going, the natural response is to fall down, or try to spin out. When you have practiced this technique with a partner often enough, and explored all the ways the partner can try to avoid/counter the force you are applying, you truly understand how it works.

In reality, the more force an opponents gives you, the more they try to resist, the better off an aikido practitioner will be. You are using their own force against them with the most economy of movement possible. Should you start to control them in one direction, and they yank their arm back to resist, then you simply change and use the force they are yanking away with.

When you understand body mechanics and do not need to think about the 'techniques' you are doing, you will have a tremendous advantage in any situation.

Let me use another analogy.

Let's say you are becoming a pilot. Can you just get into the cockpit and fly right away? No, you must start at the beginning, and gain an understanding of how the plane works. You start with the basics, and once you've learned them, you don't have to think about it anymore. Then you learn something else, and that knowledge becomes yours. Each step, you are solidifying an understanding of how to fly a plane.

Is not the person who has completed a flight training program much much more prepared to fly a plane?

It is the same with martial arts. You need to learn all you can, and gain an UNDERSTANDING of what you are doing, so that when you actually have to DO IT, you do so without needing to think and analyse what you are doing.

All martials arts are a mean to this end. Or at least they should be
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Old 01-25-2004, 12:42 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by seizei

Let me use another analogy.

Let's say you are becoming a pilot. Can you just get into the cockpit and fly right away? No, you must start at the beginning, and gain an understanding of how the plane works. You start with the basics, and once you've learned them, you don't have to think about it anymore. Then you learn something else, and that knowledge becomes yours. Each step, you are solidifying an understanding of how to fly a plane.

This is an excellent analogy to Aikido. Just like a pilot has to go to flight school and use a flight simulator, an Aikidoka trains his techniques and practices this moves in case he/she is forced to defend themselves. However, Aikido does not allow you to test these delicate manuvers against someone who truly wishes to do harm to you. This situation is analogous to a pilot saying "I know how to fly a plane, but I've never been in the air."
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Old 01-25-2004, 01:26 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisJericho
This situation is analogous to a pilot saying "I know how to fly a plane, but I've never been in the air."
I understand what you're saying - I agree that someone who has studied any martial art, but never fought for real, will not be some ass-kicking machine automatically.

What I am disagreeing with is your original statement:

Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisJericho
The thing about Aikido is that it doesn't work.
It certainly can work, as can any other martial art that one trains in.

In a BJJ grappling match, is your opponent trying to kill you? No - it is somewhat difficult to practice having someone try to kill you, so your argument about having 'cooperative partners' undermines the styles you recommend as well.

And about that cooperative partner thing... I have been my sensei's uke or partner for the self-defense event at tournaments. We go up with no planning. What I do is try to hit him as hard as I can, and he does something nasty to me in return. I have one year's tournament on video... man my head bounced off the mat on one of them!!! very fun! It would be disrespectful to throw a 'half-ass' punch at him, so at that moment, I am trying to kill him/knock his head off. If he doesn't move in time, he'll be really hurt. Of course, I wouldn't do the same thing to a new student - it takes time to get to that level of intensity and skill.

Anyway, I don't study Aikido regardless - I just hate to see a martial style written off as a useless art only suitable for fending off '80 year old women'.

If you really want to see my point, go pick a fight with an aikido teacher.
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Old 01-25-2004, 03:19 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by seizei


In a BJJ grappling match, is your opponent trying to kill you? No - it is somewhat difficult to practice having someone try to kill you, so your argument about having 'cooperative partners' undermines the styles you recommend as well.

Of course in styles like boxing, BJJ, and pankration your opponent isn't trying to kill you. However he is trying to HURT you. This element is very important, people need to know what it feels like to be punched, choked, slammed, and kicked. If some Aikidoka gets socked in the street and starts seeing stars, how is his training going to prepare him for that? The attacker isn't going to wait and offer his wrist so the Aikidoka can execute a pretty wristlock, the attacker will contiune until he gets what he wants.

One of Aikido's goals is to teach self-defense. However the way they train their students is not effective and ultimately is negligent. Therefore it does NOT work.
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Old 01-25-2004, 01:21 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisJericho
This element is very important, people need to know what it feels like to be punched, choked, slammed, and kicked. If some Aikidoka gets socked in the street and starts seeing stars, how is his training going to prepare him for that?
Good point.

Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisJericho
The attacker isn't going to wait and offer his wrist so the Aikidoka can execute a pretty wristlock, the attacker will contiune until he gets what he wants.
If a person tries to punch, grab, or push me, or anything else he may want to do with his hand, then he IS giving me his hand to do a wristlock if I so choose...

will elaborate later.... ride just got here
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Old 01-26-2004, 01:37 AM   #19 (permalink)
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The main point I'm trying to make here is that you can't just write off an entire style as 'not working'.

I think that each person develops their own martial art no matter what they study - based on their own body, strengths, and weaknesses.

For a person whose strength lies in power and aggressiveness, an internal martial art such as aikido may look like pretty little tricks. The aikidoka are using their own strengths of relaxation and fluidity, and a well trained aikido practitioner can be a force to be reckoned with, just like a well trained bjj/judo/western boxing/(insert martial art name here). By well-trained I mean a person having an understanding of techniques, principles, and body mechanics, and an understanding and practical experience of how to apply their skills in real life or death situations.

If I am facing someone who is very 'earthy' - strong, direct, forceful, I will become like 'wind' - loose, relaxed, and providing no resistance to the force the person is trying to hit me with.

There can be different approaches to fighting. Some may look strange, but they still might work.

The best approach, however, is not to fight in the first place.
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Old 01-26-2004, 01:54 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Thanks for all the advice, I'm thinking hard about what to do.
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Old 01-26-2004, 02:28 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Seizei- I am not wasting anymore time on the Aikido discussion.


McCrafe - the bottom line is that you should go and WATCH some classes. You should see how the instructor addresses his or her students, what kind of conditioning is involved, and if you would ENJOY attending classes at the particular school. How much you enjoy a MA is what determines how long you stick with it.
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Old 01-26-2004, 12:44 PM   #22 (permalink)
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i feel that i am very suited to answer that question--i am 6'4'' slim build and not strong or fast--but i have been in martial arts for 4 years--i take +phan-ku ryu jujitsu+the point of jujitsu is to not use any strength--i would niot take akido due to the fact that akido is the pure from of jujitsu--if you are doing jujitsu perfectly then you are said to be doing akido--since akido uses no strenght--but to start off i would highly suggest jujitsu
www.phanku.org

and the point about a wrist lock--this aint no segal movie--althoug i have used a wrist lock in real life it has never been during a fight--i use it before a fight starts--like if a person grabs me --or pushes me slowly--(dont believe that shit you see on tv)
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Old 01-26-2004, 02:20 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisJericho
Seizei- I am not wasting anymore time on the Aikido discussion.
I'm saddened that you find discussion a waste of time

I was having fun!
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Old 01-26-2004, 07:01 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Well we are at an impass, and I do not wish to hijack this thread.
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Old 01-26-2004, 07:57 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Not to make an arguement worse, but I have had akido used on me, and it works very damn well, thanks- I pretty much had jerico's opinion till that point- and then I was suddenly airborne and smacked down onto concrete- and I have quite a bit of practical training and experience- NOT that it doesn't have limits, size matters less, but it still is a factor in leverage and everything else. Also- MOST forms of Taekwon do are useless, NOT all- in my experience around here WTF and especialy ATA are not worth a damn, me, I spent 7 years in ITF TKD- where my instructor cross trained us with judo, PCCT and a few others- by the end I was quite happy and have successfuly used it a few times- the Akido incident prompted me to add that in, in a basic way, not in depth, but yeah, it works, especialy when applied by a guy thats 6'2"

I guess what I am saying in short is that some arts are definately better than others, but the big thing that matters is how its taught- as long as the basic movements will hurt others / prevent you from being hurt. - I also agree with the idea that you have to spar to have any chance of use, so look for an art that caters to street use, not just tournament stuff-
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Old 01-27-2004, 12:46 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Thanks for the discussion anyway... I never miss a chance to talk about martial arts
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Old 01-27-2004, 05:48 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Many people dismiss western boxing as a martial art, when in fact it is one of the most practical and effective methods. I guess it just doesnt have the mysticism factor.
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Old 01-27-2004, 02:51 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Boxing is good, there are just too many rules.
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Old 01-29-2004, 09:26 PM   #29 (permalink)
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well, the real trick is not so much finding the right style, as finding the right instructor. I've seen kali instructors that teach you stuff that would get you killed by a 5th grader, and I've seen tae kwon do instructors teach you how to kill people in seconds. If you go for a few trial lessons with someone you should be able to tell what the thrust of the class is. One good hint is the number of trophies. If they display 50 jillion trophies, they're probably a sport-oriented school.

Ask them what the stages of a fight are. They should say something akin to "entry, pressure, and termination" . . .

Watch a sparring session. Do they train as though they're in a real fight, or do they dance around barely tapping each other?
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Old 01-29-2004, 10:47 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I think the best "martial Art" would be a combonation of several different styles. You become more versatile and avoid the weaknesses of one particular style. If your opponent uses wrestling moves, you can perform Jiu jutsu/jiu jitsu/ju jitsu. If the opponent is throwing punches, use an Aikaido technique. Arguing over the best style is never productive, each style has it's strengths and weaknesses, and also many misconceptions that people carry with them. Just try a few and go with what works best for you.
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Old 01-30-2004, 07:04 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisJericho
If you study an art like Aikido that only uses co-operating partners to practice techniques, how is that going to help you in a real life situation where the other guy is trying to actually break your arm or choke you out? A person in Aikido would have no experience in a situation like this and would be ill-prepared.

The person who started this thread is interested in self-defense. If he was interested in having fun, getting in shape, and learning some moves that MIGHT help him fight off an 80 year old woman, then yes Aikido would be an acceptable choice.
Any art you practice in a studio uses cooperating (one word, btw) opponents. I have practiced Aikido since I was eight. I am a 100 lb female, but I could probably make you cry to your mommy.
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Old 01-31-2004, 01:13 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by StormBerlin
I am a 100 lb female, but I could probably make you cry to your mommy.
What makes you think this?
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Old 01-31-2004, 09:55 AM   #33 (permalink)
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I would like to say to everyone, that this has been a very interesting thread so far.
I have been studying TKD for almost 4 years now, and am still about 1 year from my BLACK belt. When i decided to start martial art training i visited atleast a dozen schools ranging from BJJ, different forms of KungFu, karate and its many off shoots, and TKD.
One of the very interesting things that i observed was the lack of real contact, and real self defence situations.
As some of the people here have stated, the TKD schools that i visited, and talked to the instructors lacked alot to be desired.
Finally i walked into a rather small TKD Dojong, that had one of the largest classes that i had seen at any of the schools.
Near the end of the class the Instructor stopped class for what he called "self defence time". What he proceded to teach looked to be a cross of most all of the styles that i had researched. Grappling, throwing, joint locks, preasure points.
THe atmosphere of this school was very different than most of the schools that i visited. Very enthusiastic.yet very disciplined. The instructor was caucasion, and didnt try to speak with a Korean accent like some of the schools that i observed.( im serious, i did run into that at 2 schools)
My point to all of this is that the Instructor and their assistants are what make or break the learning experience. The best Martial Art with a bad instructor= usless Martial Art. A run of the mill Martial Art with a kick ass Instructor, can turn out a very compitant student.
I hope that i didnt bore you to tears.
DO alot of researce in your are and sign up with the school that offers you what you are looking for in a Martial Art.

Thanks for your time

Hoosier couple
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Old 01-31-2004, 01:30 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisJericho
What makes you think this?
perhaps she is referring to over 10 years of training and a confidence in her abilities.
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Old 01-31-2004, 10:02 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by seizei
perhaps she is referring to over 10 years of training and a confidence in her abilities.
Yes after 10 years of training with co-operating classmates I'm sure she is quite deadly.
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Old 02-01-2004, 01:01 AM   #36 (permalink)
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I've made a new vow not to waste time arguing with people who have a nickname and avatar of their favourite professional wrestler.

I'm done with you and your close-minded views.

I hope someone teaches you a good lesson soon 'Chris'.
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Old 02-01-2004, 08:00 PM   #37 (permalink)
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lol, this is the way that all 'my-martial-arts-vs-your-martial-arts' threads end. Cant we all just get along people. Besides, we all know that my matial arts is better anyway.
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Old 02-01-2004, 08:58 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Originally posted by almostaugust
lol, this is the way that all 'my-martial-arts-vs-your-martial-arts' threads end. Cant we all just get along people. Besides, we all know that my matial arts is better anyway.
lol

'cept I don't study aikido, was just defending it
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Old 02-01-2004, 11:19 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by seizei


I'm done with you and your close-minded views.

This statement is incorrect. My views are not close minded. I recommended any of these styles in a previous post.

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu
Japanese jujitsu
Pankration
Muay Thai
Krav maga
Boxing with Wrestling

Thanks.
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Old 02-02-2004, 03:04 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Chris Jericho,

What MA do you/ have you studied, and how long have you been studieing this/ these Martial Arts?

I have never meet a person who was truly proficient at any MA that was as adamant about running down other Arts as you have been in this thread.
I would really like to hear what your Martial Arts back ground consists of, and how often you have Sparred/ fought against/ competed against/ the other arts that you are so sure are so worthless.
As a practitioner of TKD, i hear alot of negative comments about TKD.
Of all of the people that have ever questioned my choice of MA that has actually attended some of our classes, none of them questioned me after a few visits. After a few informal sparring sessions they have all been very impressed with what a force a competently trained TKD student can be. Am i the best? Not by a long shot. I am very confident that what i have learned in class will be able to help me in a self defence situation.
This was not meant as a slam, but as a way to inquire as to what your experience is in the realm of Martial Arts.

Thanks

ps. I have enjoyed your candor on the subect.
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