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Old 10-05-2004, 09:30 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Location: AWOL in Edmonton
Anyone have any experiences with College Pro Painting?

I've gone back to school and I'm looking into decent summer positions for semi-adults. I'm midway through the interview process for a franchise manager position and I'm doing a little research.

I was just wondering if anyone here has had expereinces with them; been a painter, mangager, or had your house painted. Or anything else. Your input is appreciated.
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Old 10-06-2004, 06:15 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Back in college, I was taking a class on cults, and had to prepare a paper. I was talking to my short stories teacher about it, and she recommended that I analyze College Pro Painters. I ended up writing about something else, so I have almost no information to give you, but she had a very negative reaction to her time working for them.
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Old 10-06-2004, 07:25 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I worked for them one summer and it sucked. I was recruited by a franchise manager who I personally knew. Customers are never happy with your work and sometimes the deadlines are outrages. We have gotten fired from jobs before even finishing. franchise managers have to pump some money into the buss before he sees a profit thats if the college kids ever stick around to finish jobs for them. I start as a painter or ride along with a franchise manager before becoming one. Don't say I didn't warn you.


sorry so brief......I'm in a hurry.....ask me anything and I'll try to answer.
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Old 10-06-2004, 09:27 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Hrm.

So it may be a cult and at least one person had a bad time as a painter. It's good to get perspective, so far the potential marketing and early season hours were the only negative things I had heard. I had a second interview today, which went well, so I'm conflicted.

They are really emphasising team work and the network/support system, and the general manager that I've talked to is also putting emphasis on 'fit'. If I fit the job and if the job fits me, etc. I could see the 'cult' perspective.

I've talked to few of the managers from previous years; quite of few of them have had 'recommendation bonuses'. This means that 90+% of thier customers, when filling out a questionaire after the job is complete would recommend them to others and use them again. They also boast a 80% return rate for painters. Obviously, they are going to focus on the positive. They have also mentioned that a successfull rookie manager can pull in alright money, which is the draw for me.

Slacker, what area were you working in? I'm in Edmonton, Alberta. I wonder if your expereinces are indiciative of the entire business or just your area\manager. It has been mentioned that a couple managers every year fail to perform and turn a profit. How did your franchise manager end up at the end of the summer?
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Old 10-07-2004, 05:13 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Oh, I forgot to mention that my information was from 17 years ago, and her experience had probably been a few years before that. Man, I'm getting old...
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Old 10-07-2004, 06:33 AM   #6 (permalink)
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PM Ace 'O Spades, he did it all last summer. He'll give you a really good idea what it's like working for them.
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Old 10-07-2004, 07:06 PM   #7 (permalink)
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did it for 5 days last summer.
quit when they made me do cold calling.
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Old 10-07-2004, 07:27 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I'm in Chicago. The manger closed shop. Most of the people you end up recruiting are going to be useless since you will be taking anyone who says yes to you. (can't weed out the good and the bad) Most of the customers will not recomend you to a friend since most of the painters suck with little or no exp. thats where the cold calls or door to door sales come into play. Kids will not stick around unless you pay them well....the more you pay them the less you make. If they spend an extra day or 5 you will lose money since you have to pay them. Jobs are never finished on time. Like I said customers will never be happy and you will pretty much have to tell them they get what they pay for.
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Old 10-07-2004, 07:31 PM   #9 (permalink)
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btw me and another buddy who was in my crew ending up doing side jobs by ourselves and parted. (manger kinda gave up cuz he didn't make enough money for the time he put in)
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Old 10-09-2004, 07:11 AM   #10 (permalink)
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A person at my office used their servies this past spring. She said they did OK but she had to stay on them. The price was substantially lower than other companies so she felt the personal nagging was worth the effort.

I think these things all come down to the actual people you deal with. Like that "life is like a box of chocolates....?"
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Old 10-09-2004, 09:13 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Buddy of mine and I did this a coupla years ago, worst month of my working career. we did one house, with a three person team, got paid two dollars an hour for it. We were pissed, thedealine was absolutely outrageous. We were threatening legal action after we talked to a professional painter about the deadline, they eventually gave us a few extra bucks to get our overall rate up to minimum wage...

All in all, a very bad organization, it's a complete tossup whether your experience will be worthless and horrible, or somewhat acceptable. I have yet to hear a good review of College Pro. I guess it depends what you're willing to put up with for work.

I'd just get a job at the local FedEx or UPS if I were you.
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Old 10-11-2004, 11:28 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I've done the Purolator thing, early mornings for ok-to poor pay. I'm not looking to work a lot of hours (or odd shifts) while I'm at school; I've shown in the past that I simply can't make the grades I need if I take the time to work. So, since I am determined to go to school, and I can't work much durning school, I need to make my money when I'm not at school from May-August.

I've minimized my costs as much as I care to, but I need an income greater then a 'standard summer job' that the average post secondary student has. (Not to mention that I'm older and have more work/life experience then the average college kid). I have been told that I can get this from College Pro Painting. I have already started and run a small business, and if the location was better and the profit higher, I wouldn't even be considering this.

It sounds like the TFPers have had a lot of negative experiences. I haven't offcially been granted a franchise yet, and even then I have some time to review the contracts and agreements.

http://www.iamcollegepro.com/default_en.html

That should take you to a web-based version of what they showed me at my first information session. It didn't turn on any alarm bells, but so far this thread has.

Please comment.
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Old 10-12-2004, 10:33 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I sent you a very long PM, so check your inbox.

Overall my experience was a 3/5

By the end of the summer I was working with people I hated, both my friends had quit... I stuck it out though... The last two weeks I was so close to quitting every day... That's how important it is to put the right crews together.

[edit]

Oh yeah, working in the lower mainland is probably the best place you can work in western canada... People actually kinda like college pro here
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Old 10-14-2004, 08:28 PM   #14 (permalink)
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YahoooooooO! College PRO! Uhh yeah. I painted for my buddy who had a franchise for three years. He made REALLY GOOD money (something on the line of $60,000 each summer, varying). Then again, he worked on it night and day.

I think overall though, College Pro is a bad company. The painters are all rookies, customers are manipulated into giving you good ratings (Workers get an extra dollar an hour if they get a 5/5 rating, and the customer is told that, so of course they are going to give the 5/5 so they won't feel like a jerk. Then, when the franchise manager is trying to make a sale he will show his client all the 5/5 ratings he has gotten in the past...), the company takes a huge cut our of your hard earned $$$, and essentially teaches bad business ethics to franchise managers.

My brother was going to do it, and signed the papers, but then changed his mind. Since then, college pro has been hounding him for money they say he owes them.

My advice, don't do College Pro. There are wayyyy better summer jobs out there.
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Old 10-15-2004, 04:34 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Location: AWOL in Edmonton
I've been granted a franchise as of my final interview this afternoon at 2. I have till tuesday to make my decision/review the agreement and polices manual. It's at that point that I would sign the papers. (And in signing those papers, I would agree to pay them money if I decide to back out, prorated in stages.)

I'm still pretty wishy washy, the feedback in this thread has been a nice viewpoint to have. I'm confident that I could make 30k into my pocket. The 'preseason' training hours and the marketing (cold calling) are holding me back.

Thanks to all for the imput, in particular Ace-o.

brinkn1-What would be a wayyyy better summer job? I can't easily think of anything at this point that has the same potential return.
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Old 10-19-2004, 02:34 PM   #16 (permalink)
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And I turned down the position. To much of a commitment during the winter and I didn't really want to cold call, despite the money I could have made. I still ahve six months to find something else decent.
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Old 10-20-2004, 02:42 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Bossnass -

You could be a foreman rather than franchise manager on a painting crew. Bust ass, beat budget, make good $$$, without any of the responsibility/accountability of being a franchise manager.

Another good summer job would be to sign a recording contract with a major record label.

Honestly though, I think you made the right choice. I don't think College Pro has good business ethics, and cold calling REALLY sucks. Oh, another example of College Pro ethics in action: If you were to sign the papers, then next year, they would try to get you to do it all again the following year. How would they go about doing that? They take you to Vegas, show you a good time - real buddy-buddy-like - buy you drinks till you're drunk and get you to sign the papers. They did that to another one of my friends.
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Old 10-20-2004, 07:27 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I worked for college works this past summer and the job wasn't bad at all until the manager wanted one crew to a job in one day. My husband was on that crew. He was away from home for about 20 hours since he had to get up so early and then got home so late. That wouldn't make anyone happy. Then he said they wouldn't work more than 10 hours again but that didn't happen. The job is great as long as the expectations are reasonable.
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Old 10-20-2004, 10:26 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Don't be a foreman

It's basically a painter who gets to do the paperwork and be the total bitch of the manager.
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Old 06-03-2010, 05:53 PM   #20 (permalink)
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College pro painters franchisor say you could make $10k-$90k in a summer with only $2k initial investments. But, after signing the agreement, you realise that starting up my business cost you $15k from your pocket and College Pro financed $7k worth of useless garbage that they make even more money on (such as papers, logos, signs, marketing programs which have zero effect).

College Pro of course makes money though, 24% off every job plus you have to pay for other expenses of theirs which equals about 35% in total. The only people making money was College Pro, your painters employers will be making less than minimum wage because the budgets are too short to allow a quality job. The end result was several months spent working long hours weekly and over thousand dollars debt incurred.
True facts: if you sell anything under $75,000 paint jobs obtained, your going to make nothing. There is NO guarantee of making any money! Example on a 50K business, you will make $3000 for working 70 hours a week for 6 months (1,78$ per hour). Total SCAM!
It isn’t really 24% royalty that you pay to the franchisor, it is more like 35% with all the hidden cost you pay on each job you book. Think about it 35% College Pro charges 35% labour 15% supplies if your lucky you be left with maybe 15% to pay for your car, marketing, equipment. Don’t forget the $6000 charge for what they call recoverables. They also require you to buy from a particular paint store where they get kickbacks from the store.
In total on a 50K biz they take 25K. They will take everything you have! If your thinking of becoming a franchisee it will be a mistake of a life time. You have greater chances of making money by starting your own company and make 45-50% profit of the sale and not 10-15% profit like with college pro! In short, they rip off the inexperienced young students (franchisees), and overcharge their customers with poor work.
If the Franchise Manager turns out to be bad, it is in his best interest to continue plugging away and being bad because he will face a $2, 000 fine if he quits or is fired, in addition to any bills College Pro charges him.

Oh and one other thing, if you have any debt with them, they let you keep NOTHING. This means that if you have to pay for car depreciation, gas, car leasing and business insurance, food, or even rent during the course of the summer, good luck getting them to let you have any money for it whatsoever. Note also that the insurance of your car is for pleasure only and if your get into an accident while on doing your business, your insurance company may void your insurance and don’t pay you or the other party for any damages, and that may ruin you financially for years.

This company preys on unsuspecting college students who think they can make money doing this. My advice, STAY AWAY, don’t be a sucker, and this may ruin your financial future.
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Old 06-15-2010, 01:22 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I recently worked as a painter for College Pro Painters and after just a month of employment could no longer stand to be apart of the company. The lack of organization and dishonesty that francise managers constantly display are outrageous. My manager charged customers for the highest quality of paint, yet purchased the cheapest type of paint for all of the houses I worked on. If there was a window on a 2nd story or higher level my Manager would advise the painters not to bother with the portions that the home owner couldn't see as it would save them money.

Francise managers are also less concerned with the painting and more concerned about partying. My manager would make us go to her house after an 11 hour day and insist that we come drink with her. If we said no she would be rude for the next few days and act completely unprofessional with us. I applied to be a painter because I thought that it would be nice to be working outside and be with students. Working outside and being around young adults was deffinitly a perk to this job, but the managment was absolutely unbearable!

The worst part of working for College Pro Painters was the fact that in the first month of work, the initial pay check was given to us 1 week late AND we were told to not deposit our cheques for another 5 days as our manager did not have the funds, AND a week after we deposited them ALL of the painters cheques bounced, thus placing us $500.00+ dollars in debt. The ONE rule that all employers must follow is to PAY YOUR EMPLOYEES, we are not doing a manual labour job as volunteers.. if people are expected to give it their best efforts while being the most time efficient as possible then they expect to be paid ontime!

My advice to a student looking for a job would be, DO NOT work for this poorly managed company. And my advice to a homeowner looking for a quality paint job would be, DO NOT allow incompetent and dishonest managers to paint or ever give you a free quote for your house.
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Old 10-11-2010, 04:39 PM   #22 (permalink)
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College Pro was great for me

Hey it seems like there is a lot of negativity around College Pro on this thread. I actually had the opportunity to run a business with College Pro and it was great. My first year I barely made minimum wage in all honesty with all of the work I put in. By my third year, i was making easily over 30 per hour. But throw the money to the side, that was just a perk, the development I got was through the roof. In school, I ran over three years over a half a million in revenue, managed it all on my own with a ton of help and support from College Pro, now only a few years out of school a Regional Vice President in about a 60 Million dollar firm.

I have never been turned down on an interview and make well above my friends. I learned about creating my success and I learned fundamentally what it meant to be skilled and deal with a lot of stress and headaches. I cant imagine if I wouldnt have taken my actions as my own fault my first year, where I would be if not really pushing through this experience. I had a few friends that did not do as well, but even they now several years later can share how valuable this experience really was for them.

As for all of the painters on this thread that are upset. That sucks as well, I worked really hard in trying to help every painter be successful and enjoy their summer in my area. Not all of them did, I did have to fire a few, but most of them had a good experience. I know a few managers with low values that did not treat their painters great, that sucks, thats not on College Pro though, they work hard to hire the right people it seems, yet the values of the managers really comes out in what type of people they are, also it is hard to run a business College Pro never let me forget that even when they explained it the first time. So I know I even did this, but I screwed up some houses and I screwed up some things with my painters, but this is what I moved so quick in my career over my peers, I had experience of screwing it up and having to fix it, what type of organization gives you that experience.

I may be one of the only ones on this thread, but I really liked my experience, I refer to it as one of the things I did that will give me a great life. My friends that took the normal internships are still in entry level positions trying to make a move and cant with the economy. If you are a painter that feels crappy, I encourage you to look into the program, if you made sure you didnt let your painters or customers feel that way, you would do awesome I am sure.

In the end, College Pro is what is says it is. You run your own business, really yours, so yah you are responsible for it and accountable for it, if you were not, wouldnt this be a huge pyramid scheme. Also, its a ton of hard work and no its not get quick. A lot of headaches, but some of the best times I have ever had. I love that I didnt listen to blogs like this and took a risk on myself as it has now given me an awesome life. Shoot me an email if you want more information, more then willing to tell you more.

Cheers
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Old 10-12-2010, 02:07 AM   #23 (permalink)
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i worked as a painter for 1 summer. (1979). It was decent money at about $6/hr which allowed me to pay my tuition and most of my residence fees for the next year. I stayed within cycling distance of my home while working. It was great being outdoors, listening to the radio and being employed. I was glad that I wasn't the manager. Looked like he was totally stressed out.
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Old 10-19-2010, 01:52 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I have been a franchise owner for College Pro in British Columbia for 3 years now.

To shed some light very quickly on the issues brought up in this forum:

1) I agree that some jobs that College Pro managers do, do not turn out well, but the vast majority turn out great. Due to the fact that there are 700 franchises throughout North America, it only makes sense that there are some horror stories, but the vast majority of College Pro Franchises do very good work.

2) There are painters that have bad experiences because of the lack of the abilities of the franchise owners. There are some 'bad hires' within College Pro when there over 700 franchises to fill. To put it in more perspective, there are upwards of 3000 painters within College Pro as well, so there will be some that have tough summers. But most painters make great money, do great work, and learn valuable skills. For example, my painters worked hard and made anywhere from $8000-13000 this summer.

I feel that the bad feelings are merited in this forum, but the reason why there are feelings like this out there is because there is a percentage of College Pro franchisee hires that are the wrong people to be getting involved with College Pro. As a College Pro Franchise Owner/Manager, you are running your own business and in the process are taking on risks. You need to have a high level of ownership and confidence. Not very many people have the aptitudes to do a job like this, and it sounds like the stories in here are from the occasional wrong hires that happen.

So, on behalf of College Pro, I apologize for the bad experiences, but I hope you realize that it is a great company, but it takes select people to excel at it... to put it lightly, it is not for the faint of heart at the owner level. If you are looking for the best opportunity in entrepreneurial training and are the right person to undertake the challenge, it will be one of the best decisions of your life, but for the few that slip that shouldn't be running a franchise, it will can be the worst experience.

Hope this helps!
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Old 10-19-2010, 07:33 PM   #25 (permalink)
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As a staffer here, as a former college student and as an entreprenuer, I think that if I could prove that recent posters are spamming us with pro-College Pro propaganda, I'd ban them and delete their posts. They're one-post wonders. But since I can't (at this point, I'll just make my opinion known.

To the next one through: I think you're full of shit, and I'll just quote myself when the time comes. I hate these sort of scemes.
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Old 10-19-2010, 07:58 PM   #26 (permalink)
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But jazz, how could you possibly think they're anything less than totally sincere?

When I worked for College Pro one summer, I made $88 million, and my dick grew three inches!
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Old 10-19-2010, 10:25 PM   #27 (permalink)
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I don't doubt the legitimacy of the posters' complaints with College Pro, because as someone who has been involved with College Pro for quite some time, I have seen some students who have had a really rough go and who have either gotten fired or quit... but it is a small percentage like I said previously and usually because they shouldn't have been hired to run a franchise.

My intention is not to argue, but it is to shed light on the issues that are being raised because I understand why there are bad postings about College Pro, but they need to be put in perspective because bad experiences travel faster than good ones.
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Old 10-20-2010, 08:16 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Ahh, but why, my intrepid poster, do they "but they need to be put in perspective because bad experiences travel faster than good ones."

Usually only someone with a vested interest in a companies' interest thinks negative reviews need to be corrected. Most people know that positive reviews are rare, and opt to work with a company not because of positive reviews but because of the absence of negative reviews.

I was with Jazz before I read his comment.. seemed odd to have a 6 month gap and then two positive reviews.

Your intentions aside, I must admit that my only experience with College Pro was a good one, at least from a management perspective. My roommate in college worked for them as a manager and made about 30 grand after taxes (in a summer). He did a lot under the table and is a ridiculously personable person who can con just about anyone into giving away their life savings, so convincing people to have their house re-sprayed was nothing. He also worked like 60 hours a week. So I'm sure there is success to be had with CPP just like any other enterprise where you're particularly good at it without training and willing to work balls-to-the-wall hard for extreme hours. He would have been able to make that kind of money anywhere, just as the kind of person he is.

But CPP as an organization does terribly with training and takes an enormous cut from the profits for relatively negligible 'brand recognition'.
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Old 10-20-2010, 11:28 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Hi Jinn,

No, I don't think that the negative reviews need to be corrected, but when someone has heard from one College Pro franchisee, or heard from a few painters, or has a friend that had a horrible experience, etc... it does not represent College Pro as a whole, but only a very small percentage (as I mentioned before there are over 700 franchisees and more 3000 painters each year).

So, again I am not trying to correct any negative statements, but only trying to put them in perspective, because as I have met upwards of a few hundred franchisees and many painters, I can speak from a little bit more experience. And this is what I see:

There is definitely a small percentage of franchise managers that do not do well and get really upset with College Pro (in my opinion due to fact that they shouldn't have undertaken a job like this), but the vast majority of franchisees do very well.

So, negative reviews are fine, you will find them in many big companies, but I am just trying to shed light on why they are there with College Pro.
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Old 10-20-2010, 12:56 PM   #30 (permalink)
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So what drew you here? Just Google Searching for "College Pro Painting" and decided spontaneously to join the forum and defend a company you (used to?) work for?
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Old 10-20-2010, 02:46 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Well, I have seen this forum before but didn't post. But now I thought I could hopefully try to amend hard feelings/show the reason for them.
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Old 10-20-2010, 06:02 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Jkisaak, if I understand your point correctly, all (or the majority of) the complaints listed here (and elsewhere on these intertubes) come solely from franchisees that aren't capable of doing the work. It seems to me that any franchisor worth the name would very quickly and efficently weed out those that are going to damage their brand. After all, if the brand name is damaged, it hurts the franchisor in the long run more than franchisee.

I am certain that there are folks that are very happy with the job that College Pro did for them. I am certain that there are former employees and former franchise owners that are very happy with the relationship they had with the company. What I am also certain of is that there is a very vocal group that thinks that there are some severe problems with the basic business model and that there are some questionable, if not fraudulent, practices. Blaming things on "bit off more than they could chew" only goes so far when you read about some practices that violate some pretty important labor laws.

Oh, and I also find it interesting that you only look at this thread when you're here and that you seem to want to have the last word in this thread. On that last point, let me assure you that it just won't happen.

Jinn, I'm with you: I think he still works for them and this is damage control.
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Old 10-20-2010, 06:38 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Sorry that you think there is some malicious scheme behind what I am saying, and this is not damage control sanctioned by corporate, just a current franchisee hoping to help with some of the issues that are being raised and stating what I have seen through the years at College Pro. I did not intend to demean the people having problems with College Pro, it could have been the wrong expectations set by the recruiter as well, or just a bad experience.

I can tell that you have some issues with College Pro with something happened or that you think is happening. If that is the case, I would recommend you call 1 800 32 PAINT and get in contact with the regional General Manager or Vice President in your area and I'm sure that they would be happy to help resolve/improve on the issues that you have in lieu of us going around in cirlces!
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Old 10-21-2010, 11:44 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Annnnnnnd.....

The truth comes out.

I have no experience with College Pro Painting. Honestly, based on what I've read here, I never will. When both customers and franchisees are complaining, well, obviously there's an issue. I don't do business with companies that treat employees and franchisees like shit.

Seems to me that there are multiple issues here, namely that the franchisor is strictly interested in enriching themselves. If they're making you pay a sign-on fee to "buy" the franchise, then that's a serious problem. But there's some obvious wage issues, scheduling issues and (most likely) safety issues here as well. As a former contractor myself, I find it impossible to believe that start-up franchisees are capable of conducting safety meetings and enforcing safety rules, especially with untrained owners.

Jkisaak, I'm going to take you at your word that you're not posting by corporate sanction. However, you should probably realize that what you're doing most likely violates your franchise agreement (it would on every franchise agreement I've ever read, which is a number that is definitely greater than 20). By taking you at your word, I'm not banning you as a spammer and deleting your posts. Perhaps the 800 number you posted will do someone some good down the road. Based on this thread that seems doubtful, but I've been wrong before.

I don't think that you can argue that there ISN'T something wrong over at College Pro on the franchisor level. If they're damaging YOUR brand so badly by recruiting folks that obviously don't understand the (recruiter setting the wrong expectation) or just screwing their employees (bad experience), and that gets documented HERE, then there's a real problem with that company. A quick google search showed that this thread is definitely not unique on the internet.

Also, by taking you at your word, I'm expect that you're going to stop being a one-note poster and venture out into the rest of the site. Or you can keep playing the game you've been playing and see how long my patience lasts.
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Old 10-21-2010, 12:46 PM   #35 (permalink)
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I have never been hiding my intentions.

There is no fee to buy the franchise, it is technically a lease. And I not hiding anything. My point has been clear: with the amount of applicants, franchisees, and painters, there are some occurrences where there could have been wrong expectations set, the hire was a 'bad hire' or another circumstance. It is reality. But College Pro's motto is to provide exceptional management and leadership skills to young entrepreneurs, and with the amount of franchisees I have met, that reigns FAR supreme. So, again, there will be some people that have bad experiences, but it is not College Pro's intention-- and if there is a circumstance where someone has felt like they have been mistreated, I would encourage them to call that number. College Pro is a rare company that is very focussed on the growth and learning of the franchisee because that is what propels their company forward.

As far as damaging my brand, they are not. I am responsible for College Pro's image and brand in my territory and have a part of how we are viewed in my province as a whole. I take ownership in that-- and we are the largest residential painting brand within the province, so it is doing well.

As far as venturing and exploring the site. That would be great. The only thing that brought me to this site was that it came up in google when I was searching, but it has given me a chance to see what it is all about! I really enjoy the discussion, because it is good to see other points and what other people think-- I am not trying to test your patience, but just engaging in the healthy discussion that has come from my post. So I will check out the rest of the site too!
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Old 10-21-2010, 04:12 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Hey, anyone who thinks we're being spammed either report that last post or PM me. I've got my opinion. I know there are more than a couple agree with me. Should the number hit my unannounced over/under, I'll do what I do. Just make it snappy - the time limit on the easy way to do this is running out.

Jkisaak, don't bother replying. Your vote doesn't count.
__________________
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"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo
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