Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community  

Go Back   Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community > The Academy > Tilted Life


 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 12-12-2004, 11:02 AM   #1 (permalink)
Crazy
 
Kid_Karysma's Avatar
 
Location: The Top Rope
Kwanzaa

I've heard of it. I realize it's literally a made up holiday. But does anyone celebrate it? It seems like a big city look-at-me politically correct b.s., not a real holiday that one would acknowledge if isolated from the rest of the world. I know of no one that Kwanzaas, do you kwanzaa?
Kid_Karysma is offline  
Old 12-12-2004, 12:44 PM   #2 (permalink)
Mjollnir Incarnate
 
Location: Lost in thought
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kid_Karysma
I've heard of it. I realize it's literally a made up holiday.
Everything was "made up" at some point in time. Just because this one is only around 40 years (?) old, doesn't make it any less valid. It's all about celebrating family and African culture. Gets a thumbsup from me. Albeit a white-boy thumbsup
Slavakion is offline  
Old 12-12-2004, 01:07 PM   #3 (permalink)
All important elusive independent swing voter...
 
jorgelito's Avatar
 
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
I think it's getting a little out of hand. Especially since many communities are banning "Silent Night" and putting up Christmas decorations etc because they are afraid of being sued. But meanwhile it's ok to celebrate Hannukah, Kwanzaa, Ramadan etc.

You shouldn't sacrifice one community for another. Either evryone is ok or no one is. Also, the proliferation of "differences" works to sever unity and fragments our society placing us in a "us vs. them" environment.

Sad.

Happy Kwanzaa?
jorgelito is offline  
Old 12-12-2004, 01:08 PM   #4 (permalink)
All important elusive independent swing voter...
 
jorgelito's Avatar
 
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
By the Way: Kid_Karysma, I LOVE your avatar, I almost attacked my screen...*groan*
jorgelito is offline  
Old 12-12-2004, 02:45 PM   #5 (permalink)
Mjollnir Incarnate
 
Location: Lost in thought
While I agree that it's hypocritical to hinder Christmas and promote others, I disagree about the differences. We should celebrate our individuality and our unique culture(s). Would you rather we had Generic American Holiday Day?
Slavakion is offline  
Old 12-12-2004, 02:59 PM   #6 (permalink)
All important elusive independent swing voter...
 
jorgelito's Avatar
 
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slavakion
Would you rather we had Generic American Holiday Day?
Well, no not really. But I do think we are increasingly becoming more and more divided. So instead of celebrating diversity, we are in effect, segregating.

I also agree that we should celebrate our individuality and unique cultures, I just think it's getting a little out of hand or to put it another way, it's coming at the cost/price of our community and unity.

I think we already have the Generic American Holiday day:
July 4th? Maybe?
jorgelito is offline  
Old 12-12-2004, 03:24 PM   #7 (permalink)
 
trickyy's Avatar
 
anyone see that south park christmas show with the non-offensive pagent? it may have been the first or second season. it was pretty funny...a display of utter nonsense.

well, i guess maybe it was a south park holiday show...or winter show perhaps.

but i agree, given that most people do the whole tree and gifts thing, the pc crap that happens during this time of year is laughable. i don't care what people celebrate, but why water it down so much? telling someone "merry christmas" doesn't mean you have to alter all of your personal beliefs.


i'm dreaming of a white federal holiday
trickyy is offline  
Old 12-12-2004, 03:38 PM   #8 (permalink)
All important elusive independent swing voter...
 
jorgelito's Avatar
 
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
trickyy:

That was indeed a most hilarious episode. I think it was the "Winter Festival". Anyways, as usual Sheila made some fuss and by the time it was over, it was so stripped down that it was ridiculous to no end. Turns out the only thing that was acceptable in the school play were snowflakes and the new "winter" music composed by Philip Glass. Hilarious. But funny, funny stuff.

An excellent example of what I was trying to illustrate. I don't think saying "Merry Christmas" to someone should be seen as some sort of Christian conspiracy to supress blacks, Jews , Hindus and what not. Sometimes a rose is just a rose. It's all getting out of hand. Poor kids.
jorgelito is offline  
Old 12-12-2004, 08:39 PM   #9 (permalink)
 
trickyy's Avatar
 
there was kind of a funny piece on CNN about this...
unfortunately the video here is only for subscribers: http://www.cnn.com/video/

but the transcript is available (scroll to the end): http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0412/07/pzn.01.html
trickyy is offline  
Old 12-12-2004, 08:44 PM   #10 (permalink)
All important elusive independent swing voter...
 
jorgelito's Avatar
 
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
Haha, thanks man, you're a gem.

BUT, I have it on DVD!! *yay*
jorgelito is offline  
Old 12-12-2004, 09:20 PM   #11 (permalink)
MSD
The sky calls to us ...
 
MSD's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: CT
People need to stop being so fucking politically correct. I am not religious. I hate organized religion. I believe in separation of church and state. I want to see a big plot of land in front of my town hall full of side-by-side decarations celebrating every religious holiday that can be represented in a way that does not violate building codes or threaten public safety. I want to see this because separation of church and state does not mean that the government should act like religious beliefs do not exist.

I can agree that my taxes shouldn't be spent on decorations whil our schools are under construction for the 8th year in a row, but let people from the community come together (doing that almost sounds like somethign that would be done by a ... community,) and use that space that's just going to sit and get snowed on (or rained on, judging by past winters.) I call it the right to free expression, the right to assemble, the right to not ban decorations on their land and establish a national religion of atheism.

Peoples' beliefs should be freely expressed and acknowledged. We need to pick and choose our battles. If we want to fight against the removal of the church/state barrier, we should fight against the banning of evolution and the mandate on abstinence=only miseducation in our schools, not a town that put up a christmas tree. If you are offended the fact that someone else puts up a display of their faith, go back to your home, draw your curtains, and pray for our souls, because most of us would rather you do that than sue us over holiday decorations on public property.
MSD is offline  
Old 12-12-2004, 10:47 PM   #12 (permalink)
Junkie
 
hannukah harry's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jorgelito
trickyy:

That was indeed a most hilarious episode. I think it was the "Winter Festival". Anyways, as usual Sheila made some fuss and by the time it was over, it was so stripped down that it was ridiculous to no end. Turns out the only thing that was acceptable in the school play were snowflakes and the new "winter" music composed by Philip Glass. Hilarious. But funny, funny stuff.

An excellent example of what I was trying to illustrate. I don't think saying "Merry Christmas" to someone should be seen as some sort of Christian conspiracy to supress blacks, Jews , Hindus and what not. Sometimes a rose is just a rose. It's all getting out of hand. Poor kids.
i think part of the problem is that for those of us that are not christian, we are innundated with christmas from thanksgiving until the holiday itself. people don't stop to think 'hey, he might not be christian.' so when i go into a store near the holiday and someone says it to me, i say it back, but i do it out of an attempt to be polite. and it's really fucking annoying, really fast.

also, and this is my big thing, same with a few other people i know, what pisses us off is that most of the build up is just for the commercialization of the holiday. and that's super-duper-annoying.

some people are going overboard with the 'lets not put stuff up cause we might get sued' but i think that's much fewer and far betweener than it's made out to be. people generally complain when it's purely christmas stuff being put up and paid for by govt. funds while the other holidays going on are ignored or given mere lip-service. but i really think it's mainly a vocal minority rather than a widespread phenominon.
__________________
shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer
hannukah harry is offline  
Old 12-12-2004, 11:01 PM   #13 (permalink)
All important elusive independent swing voter...
 
jorgelito's Avatar
 
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
Correct, correct but I think were merging issues.

Part of that problem is indeed the whole commercialization development that in my opinion, spawned "Christmas'": A secular, national holiday and a religious one.

For example, many people ( I do not have any stats, just assumptions so please bear with me) celebrate Christmas are NOT Christians. Precisely because it is no longer identified as such, or at the very least, has grown to accommodate secular commercial society.

Similarly, many Jews celebrate Hannukah but aren't particularly religious. In other word, the holiday has diversified. (That's probably a whole other thread).

By the way, you are not the only one who finds the "x-mas assault" annoying. It actually starts right after Halloween now!! Argh!

Also, when people say "Merry Christmas", it's usually a nice thing, not a Crusade-to-convert-the-heathens (lol). Nowadays, though, cause everyone is so damn sensitive, people say "Happy Holidays".. Which is also nice.

Funny thing is, Halloween is also a religious holiday, but the non-Christians don't declare jihad when Jack-o-lanterns appear or threaten to sue over Halloween decor.

*shrug* It'll sort itself out eventually I think. Live and let live.

Happy Hannukah to you friend and l'chaim!
jorgelito is offline  
Old 12-13-2004, 09:16 AM   #14 (permalink)
 
trickyy's Avatar
 
it's true that christmas is the implicit holiday, of course. and lord knows tony danza won't be featured on usa in a movie called "stealing hannukah."

i guess you can be still thankful that hannukah hasn't been completely bastardized by those pesky ad wizards. but, i admit it, i would like to see more stores with the balls to hold hannukah sales. it's not like they would have to forgo christmas sales, after christmas sales, and new years sales.
trickyy is offline  
Old 12-13-2004, 10:18 AM   #15 (permalink)
Getting it.
 
Charlatan's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
Being an atheist, Christmas has no religious connotation for me... it is a time that I celebrate being with my family and exchanging presents...

Most of the symbols of Christmas are pagan in origin anyway... they were coopeted by early Christians...
__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke
Charlatan is offline  
Old 12-13-2004, 11:10 AM   #16 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Carno's Avatar
 
I don't know anyone who celebrates Kwanzaa...
Carno is offline  
Old 12-13-2004, 11:34 AM   #17 (permalink)
Mjollnir Incarnate
 
Location: Lost in thought
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlatan
Most of the symbols of Christmas are pagan in origin anyway... they were coopeted by early Christians...
Could you elaborate? No, I'm really interested.

I dunno, Christmas really isn't Christmas anymore. I remember when I was like seven years old. I asked my parents how come a few of the Christmas cards we got were all "religious-y" and didn't talk about presents, Santa, or the holidays.
Speaking of Santa, how did he become associated with a religious holiday? Is it because people had started the tradition of gifts on Christmas, and then Santa appeared as a jolly old myth?
Slavakion is offline  
Old 12-13-2004, 12:21 PM   #18 (permalink)
All important elusive independent swing voter...
 
jorgelito's Avatar
 
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
I think the whole tradition started in 1886 or something. Some advertising firm and Hallmark? came up with the whole promo campaign like tree lighting, card giving etc.

Anyways, depending on where you live, there's tons and tons (no really) of Hannukah sales. There's a huge Menorah at the intersection across from Starbucks. Speaking of which, they have a Hannukah section in their store too. Same as Petco.

I guess the only religion were "celebrating" is really is worshipping the almighty dollar! (lol)

In God we trust...
jorgelito is offline  
Old 12-13-2004, 12:46 PM   #19 (permalink)
Natalie Portman is sexy.
 
omega2K4's Avatar
 
Location: The Outer Rim
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slavakion
Could you elaborate? No, I'm really interested.

I dunno, Christmas really isn't Christmas anymore. I remember when I was like seven years old. I asked my parents how come a few of the Christmas cards we got were all "religious-y" and didn't talk about presents, Santa, or the holidays.
Speaking of Santa, how did he become associated with a religious holiday? Is it because people had started the tradition of gifts on Christmas, and then Santa appeared as a jolly old myth?
I found this on some website via google:

Quote:
Should Christians Celebrate Christmas?
The true origins of Christmas

So where did it all begin??

The concept of Christmas originated in ancient Egypt in the days of King Osiris and Queen Isis around about 3000 B.C. - long before the Christian faith was even thought of!!

After the untimely death of King Osiris, his wife, Isis, propogated the demonic doctrine of the survival of Osiris as a spirit. She claimed a full grown evergreen tree sprang overnight from a dead stump, symbolising the new life of the Osiris spirit from his death. On each anniversary of Osiris birth, which was the date we now know as December 25th, Isis would leave gifts around this tree.

Isis became the "Queen of Heaven", and Osiris became the reborn "divine son of heaven". Osiris later became, through the later Phoenicans, Baal the Sun-god. The "mother and child" became chief objects of worship by the Babylonians, from which it spread over the world under various names, such as, Cybel & Deoius in Asia, Fortuna & Jupiter in pagan Rome.

Then during the fourth and fifth century, the Romans under the new popular "Christianity" popularised the "mother and child" concept especially around Christmas time - from which we have many of the Christmas carols such as "Silent Night Holy Night" with it's familiar "mother and child" theme.
__________________
"While the State exists there can be no freedom. When there is freedom there will be no State." - Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

"Reason has always existed, but not always in a reasonable form."- Karl Marx
omega2K4 is offline  
Old 12-13-2004, 01:12 PM   #20 (permalink)
All important elusive independent swing voter...
 
jorgelito's Avatar
 
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
Oh yeah, in regards to pagan origins:

I think (not positive, details fuzzy) it used to be a celebration of the Winter Solstice. As Christians became stronger (politically etc) they co-opted the festivities in their ever zeal to convert/impose etc christianity. Use of culture was one method of power building and expansion.

It's weird, I think we covered this in Western Civ. Incidentally, I think one of the Holy Roman Emperors or someone was crowned by a pope on December 25th, 800AD for precisely that reason. To sort of emphasize his authority (and church?) and legitimacy from God. I'm too lazy to cross the room and look it up in my book, no Jedi powers here...
jorgelito is offline  
Old 12-13-2004, 01:44 PM   #21 (permalink)
 
trickyy's Avatar
 
santa claus is based on saint nicholas somehow. he lived back in the dark ages i think.

i'm not sure how the man transformed into an eccentric elf herder. i do believe coca-cola played a hand in creating the jolly bearded image, though.

edit: well, snopes says i'm wrong.
http://www.snopes.com/cokelore/santa.asp

Quote:
Although some versions of the Santa Claus figure still had him attired in various colors of outfits past the beginning of the 20th century, the jolly, ruddy, sack-carrying Santa with a red suit and flowing white whiskers had become the standard image of Santa Claus by the 1920s, several years before Sundlom drew his first Santa illustration for Coca-Cola. As The New York Times reported on 27 November 1927:

A standardized Santa Claus appears to New York children. Height, weight, stature are almost exactly standardized, as are the red garments, the hood and the white whiskers. The pack full of toys, ruddy cheeks and nose, bushy eyebrows and a jolly, paunchy effect are also inevitable parts of the requisite make-up.

It's simply mind-boggling that at the beginning the 21st century, historians are still egregiously perpetuating inaccurate information like the following:

So complete was the colonization of Christmas that Coke's Santa had elbowed aside all comers by the 1940s. He was the Santa of the 1947 movie Miracle on 34th Street just as he is the Santa of the recent film The Santa Clause. He is the Santa on Hallmark cards, he is the Santa riding the Norelco shaver each Christmas season, he is the department-store Santa, and he is even the Salvation Army Santa!

Last edited by trickyy; 12-13-2004 at 01:50 PM..
trickyy is offline  
Old 12-15-2004, 02:29 AM   #22 (permalink)
The Dreaded Pixel Nazi
 
Konichiwaneko's Avatar
 
Location: Inside my camera
meh christmas to me is as ubiquitous as the English langauge, and I take it as it is.

I'm not offended by it, nor do I celebrate it. If one needs a day or a period of time to celebrate all for them. To me my life, my family, my friends, and some could say the tfp itself is my holiday ^^
__________________
Hesitate. Pull me in.
Breath on breath. Skin on skin.
Loving deep. Falling fast.
All right here. Let this last.
Here with our lips locked tight.
Baby the time is right for us...
to forget about us.
Konichiwaneko is offline  
Old 12-17-2004, 11:57 AM   #23 (permalink)
Crazy
 
Kid_Karysma's Avatar
 
Location: The Top Rope
Search for roots of Kwanzaa leads back to the USA
By Malcolm A. Kline
When my wife and I were engaged a decade ago, I happened to see an ad for Kwanzaa on TV while she was out running errands. It held particular interest for me, since she (a native of Zimbabwe) and I (a Pennsylvania-bred son of a car appraiser) were about to create a truly African-American family. So, wanting to learn more about her cultural heritage, I later asked her about the African festival.

"Kwanzaa?" she replied." What is that?"

Two years later, Darryl, my stepson, was in fourth grade. When I came home one night, he showed me something he had brought from school. It was a thin piece of paper rolled into an oval with a circle of paper cut and placed on it like a lid, all of it taped together with little spots dotting it.

"What is it?" I asked. Darryl put it on his head and said, "It's my Kwanzaa hat."

"Did you make that?" my wife asked.

"No, my teacher made it for me after I told the class about Kwanzaa," Darryl said.

"But we don't celebrate Kwanzaa," my wife pointed out. "I still don't know what it is. Why did you talk to the class about it?"

A child's expertise

Darryl said, "My teacher asked me to. She said, 'Since you have just come to us from Africa, would you tell the class about the feast of Kwanzaa?' "

"What did you say?" my wife asked.

"I said what I heard on the TV commercial," Darryl answered.

The teacher is as white as I am.

Over the years, my wife's co-workers have frequently asked her about Kwanzaa, viewing her as an in-house expert. Unlike her son, my wife has never feigned expertise on the subject on demand.

So I decided to explore this festival and its heritage. After all, if it is, as the "official" Kwanzaa Web site claims, a "Pan-African holiday celebrated by millions throughout the world" that "brings a cultural message which speaks to the best of what it means to be African and human in the fullest sense," surely others must know about it.

I asked a friend from Kenya. "No," he said, "we don't celebrate Kwanzaa in Kenya. I think that is an Ethiopian holiday." An Ethiopian acquaintance demurred, "I think that is a Tanzanian holiday." A Tanzanian said he thought it was Gambian. The Gambian believed it to be a holiday in Guinea-Bissau. "No," said my friend from Guinea-Bissau. " We don't celebrate Kwanzaa. I think that is a holiday in Kenya."

So where does that leave us? For my answer, I went to The Complete Kwanzaa by Detroit public school administrator Dorothy Winbush Riley. The first Kwanzaa celebration took place in Los Angeles in 1966. Maulana Karenga celebrated Kwanzaa that year with his family and friends, setting the dates for the observation between Christmas and New Year's Day.

What Kwanzaa means

Karenga, Riley writes, delineated Kwanzaa's core principles: unity, self-determination, collective work and responsibility, cooperative economics, purpose, creativity and faith. "The core principles of Kwanzaa," Karenga said, "which I developed and proposed during the Black Cultural Revolution of the '60s (are) a necessary minimum set of principles by which black people must live in order to begin to rescue and reconstruct our history and our lives."

Karenga, arguably the father of Kwanzaa, repeatedly uses the word "African" to describe the holiday and borrows from the continent's languages to describe its foundations. Although I never got through to him, I did get an interesting response about Kwanzaa from the nice lady at the Black History Museum in Alexandria, Va.

"I would say you would find no African nations and one American nation celebrating Kwanzaa," she said.

Teaching the values Karenga lays out is certainly worthwhile, and he is right to argue that they are essential ingredients to living a healthy, happy, successful life. And if an annual festival helps reinforce them to an African-American audience, well that's fine, too. But can we please do my wife and my kids a favor and dispense with the claim that this festival has its roots anywhere but right here in the USA?

Malcolm A. Kline is the executive director of Accuracy in Academia, a non-profit research group in Washington.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion...zaa-edit_x.htm
Kid_Karysma is offline  
Old 12-17-2004, 12:54 PM   #24 (permalink)
big damn hero
 
guthmund's Avatar
 
For most of the *pagan* religions the holiday is a agricultural festival. Romans celebrated the harvest, Omega already mentioned the Egyptians, in Northern Europe mid-December represents the birth of the sun-god (after the solstice the sun shines a bit longer each day). Yule logs were specifically burned at these get togethers and fir trees are from germanic myth and the symbol of fertility.

The new church did quite a bit of pagan holiday co-opting in the early days. It was just easier to give an existing festival or holiday a new name. I'd imagine, over the years, the mythology just naturally occured as the real meanings were lost in time's fog.

/thread jack


I don't celebrate any holidays in particular as they were all just *made up.* Christmas seems to have lost a lot of it's religious connotation over the years and become just another manufactured excuse to buy a lot of shit, keep the good stuff for yourself and give the rest away to people you don't really like. Kwanzaa, Valentine's Day, Halloween, Thanksgiving, you name it.... are all (at least as far as society is concerned) just a meaningless excuse to eat a bunch of stuff that isn't good for you and take off work/school.

That's not to say that I don't enjoy the Thanksgiving turkey or the Christmas ham, I just don't get all teary eyed and make it a point to say grace.
__________________
No signature. None. Seriously.
guthmund is offline  
Old 12-17-2004, 10:45 PM   #25 (permalink)
Banned
 
Zeraph's Avatar
 
Location: The Cosmos
My friends and I have an anual kwanzaa party, we are all white though...It's not really a joke, but we arn't terribly serious about it either. We sing christmas carrols house to house while 1 or 2 people play the guitar. (My friends had a band in HS) We don't celebrate it on the right day though. People think we're crazy
Zeraph is offline  
 

Tags
kwanzaa

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:46 AM.

Tilted Forum Project

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
© 2002-2012 Tilted Forum Project

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360