BullHazzer

Hey all. Thanks in advance for taking the time to read through this and for any help that can be given. I think I have everything figured out but a second opinion would be very helpful.

I have an 84 Kawaski 440 LTD. The short of it is, it will not start. I have a brand new battery in place with a full charge but when I hit the start switch it turns over maybe 5 times and then slows down (hardly turning) and acts as if the battery is dead. It does not seem to be firing but the plugs are clean and sparking.

I am guessing that the starter is bad, but I am unsure. I have tried push starting the bike to no avail (did not try for to long as it was a very hot day and no one was there to help).

Any help on what it could be and how to test it would be much appreciated. I don?t have a lot of cash on hand to fix this (and if I did have a lot of cash on hand, I would just get a different bike!) so I want to be smart in what parts I get.

Thanks a ton for your help and input!

Peryn

Just let me preface this with the fact that i know just about nothing about bikes.

That being said, if it were a car, the next natural place to look would be the fuel system. You said the plugs are sparking, and you have compression. That leaves fuel. Now most bikes are still carbuerated aren't they? Check your carb. Do you have fuel in the tank (hey, ya never know)?

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rockogre

Bike or car, it makes little difference. It all works the same. All info is good info on carbs and ignition.

Has it been running recently? It kind of bothers me that it will only turn over 5 times or so and then slows down. Even new batteries sometimes have a problem. Make sure that it reads 12 volts. Also, good voltage does not always mean that you are getting full current flow from the battery. It may have a weak cell or one of your battery cables may not be making good contact.
The place you bought it from may test it for you for free. I know that here, Auto Zone will test stuff for free.

If you have a bad battery or contact you may not be getting enough power to your ignition while the starter is engaged. Cranking the bike will make the voltage drop. If it drops enough it will be below the minimum needed for the ignition.

My bike kick starts and I don't know if you have a starter relay or not but my guess is that you do. If if is original, from 84, then you have a 20 year old relay that may be giving up the ghost.

Also remember to check the simple stuff first. Fuses! Is the fuse good to your ignition? Does the bike have enough oil to keep the internal parts from binding while cranking the starter? Has wire broken somewhere or came off?

If you saw my post about rebuilding my bike you know I found some wiring problems. Bikes as old as yours and mine have 20 years or so of wires rubbing together and against the frame. I would also check that starter relay so see if it may not be the culprit.

Let us know what you find.

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BullHazzer

Thanks for the feedback and suggestions so far. I appreciate the help.

There is plenty of fuel (and I did turn it on too ). I mentioned the issue to a guy here at work and he suggests double (and triple) checking the plugs. So I?ll test that again and make sure there is no problem there.

The bike was running last fall. It died on me towards the end of the riding season so I just parked it. Now with the sun returning here in Iowa, I am tired of missing the ride-able days. I need to get it going!

One odd thing about my bike, there is no kick-start! Very annoying. If all my connections are good and fuses are solid and the basic stuff checks out, I?ll try a push start again and see what I get.

I?ll keep you posted. Thanks!!

rockogre

Did it sit long enough for the gas in the bowls to evaporate and leave gunk in all the passages? You may have to clean out the carbs somehow. Is any liquid gasoline getting on the plugs? Is gas filling the carb bowls?

I always thought that removing the kick start option was sort of short sighted. It could always be helpful in a pinch.

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Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you,
Jesus Christ and the American G. I.
One died for your soul, the other for your freedom

BullHazzer

Sorry for the slow update here, but here is what I have tried so far. I removed the plugs to double-check them. Found that neither plug is getting a spark and that when the compression force is off, the starter will turn over the engine with no problem. So i went ahead and got some new plugs and tested for spark. The left plug sparked for me while the right side did not. I switched plugs around to the opposite cable to check that it was not the plug on the right side, but then neither would spark. I could not get either to spark on either side.

So I'm in the process of tracing the line back no. I'm thinking now that it is either a fuse or a writing problem. I have a feeling it is going to be an on going headache now.

Thanks for the input and feedback. I don't have near enough time to work on my bike and I wish it could just fix it self. I know that if I had the money, then it would 'fix it self' but I don't so the headache stays mine! Joy!

Sion

BullHazzer, besides the spark problem, you might still have a bum starter. When a starter goes bad, sometimes it acts like a weak battery. This is common with older Ford starters (the kind that did not have the solenoid attached to the starter motor). When those would go, the amount of amperage needed to turn them (and the engine) would skyrocket. Since the battery cannot increase its amperage to compensate, it would seem like a weak/dying battery. The engine would crank slowly a few times and then just stop. One way to check this is to check the positive battery cable. If the starter is drawing excessive amps, the cable will get hot (or even start smoking, as the insulation melts). I've seen this happen on a car I had once.

The only reason I bring this up is that such a situation can be dangerous and you'll want to correct it. And the fact that the starter will crank the engine fine without the plugs in, but only 5 times or so with them in, suggests that you still have a problem in that area. Either the starter is beginning to fail, or the battery isnt hold charge properly. I suggest having both of them tested. Most auto parts stores can test the battery, but you'll probably need to take the starter to a bike shop to have it tested, as the auto parts store probably wont have the amp draw specs necessary to properly test the starter.

good luck

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agball

Make sure the gas is not old, if so drain & replace.

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rockogre

Any luck yet? I'm pulling for ya.

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Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you,
Jesus Christ and the American G. I.
One died for your soul, the other for your freedom

poof

Make sure the battery cables haven't corroded inside the insulation. Use an ohmmeter and check for voltage drop.

By that, I mean make sure your voltage at the starter is the same as at the battery. Check the ground cable also.

BullHazzer

All right, an update finally. I wish I had a good long, empty Saturday that I could devote to getting my bike going, but unfortunately that never happens. So this process is slow and agonizingly slow.

I spoke with a local bike shop technician and he also recommend checking the plug cap connections. So I pulled both caps, snipped the wire an 1/8 inch or so and then screwed the caps back on. Reinserted the plugs and I got spark on both! Put the plugs back into the engine and with fingers crossed, hit the start button. No dice though, it turned 5 times and then slowly turned a couple more before it stopped. Couple of things to note for you while it was turning over, the headlight did not dim and I heard no combustion.

I do not think the gas is bad but I am going to drain the tank and put in some fresh gas just in case. How long does it usually take for gas to go bad anyways? I am also going to open up the carbs and see what I can see in there. Make sure a float isn't bad or something along those lines. I will also then know if it is clean and such.

I looked for some replacement parts online and with the local bike shop. Sticker shock is an understatement for what I felt. A new coil would cost $150, a starter would be $450. I bought this bike for $350 so I would prefer not to put a lot of money into it. If I find it requires new 'major' parts, this thread may turn into a listing of parts for an 81 Kawasaki!

Thanks again for everyone's 2 cents and help. I really appreciate it!

Sion

ok, so you know that you have spark. thats good. thats one of three requirements for internal combustion to occur. the next is compression. from your comments earlier in the thread, we can say with some confidence that you have compression. finally, you need fuel. more specifically, you need an air-fuel charge. we know that you have gas in the tank, and that you turned the fuel valve to the on position, so unless there is a clog of some kind, you should be getting fuel. but since you hear no combustion, then its possible that either the gas is bad (unlikely from last fall, but not impossible) or that you're not getting enough air in there. have you checked the air filter and the air intake passage? could be a mouse nest in there for all you know. check it and make sure its clear and and filter isnt clogged with dirt.

now, all that being said, I still think you have either a battery or starter problem. a new battery with a full charge should be able to turn that sucker over for 30 seconds to a minute before beginning to slow down noticeably. The fact that you can tell how many times it turns over (about 5 you said) suggests that its not turning over fast enough, and that suggests weak battery or excessive amperage draw by the starter. as I said before, have them tested.

good luck and let us know if/when you get it running.

__________________
He's the best, of course, of all the worst.
Some wrong been done, he done it first. -fz

I jus' want ta thank you...falettinme...be mice elf...agin...

rockogre

This is a dangerous idea, do not try this if you don't feel confident.

You might try starting the bike with jumper cables from a car battery. If your starter is good it should be in danger of melting before it slows down. You should never crank it for more than a dozen seconds or so anyway. This will also make sure that you have plenty of amp and volts for the ignition.

Just a thought. I have an old riding mower I have to jump start occasionally and as long as I am very careful it has never been a problem.

DO NOT follow this advice if it makes you uncomfortable in any way. Don't want to see you have an accident.

__________________
Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you,
Jesus Christ and the American G. I.
One died for your soul, the other for your freedom

Sion

this is actually a pretty good idea, as far as trying to determine if the battery is weak or starter is dying. as long as the car is not running when this is done, there is no real danger. the starter will only draw as many amps as necessary to turn the engine. however, as I mentioned previously, IF the starter is going bad, the positive cable from the battery to the starter will most likely get hot from the excessive amp draw. so, if you can, feel that cable while attempting the jump start. if it starts to get hot, STOP immediately. the good news at that point is you will have found the culprit. the bad news is that a new or rebuilt starter wont be cheap.

in any case, DO NOT attempt this procedure with the car running. that is the only real danger of jump starting from car battery. when running, you have the output from the car's alternator to consider, which could easily overload the bikes circuits, blowing fuses, fusible links and melting wires and cables all over the place, which could be a fire hazard. but with the vehicle off, then the only thing you are doing is providing a deeper well of amperage from which the starter can draw, which means the only danger is the aforementioned positive cable, which is negligible if you monitor it during the procedure.

__________________
He's the best, of course, of all the worst.
Some wrong been done, he done it first. -fz

I jus' want ta thank you...falettinme...be mice elf...agin...

BullHazzer

Jumping from a car battery doesn't scare me as I tried that last fall when it first started having issues. At the time, it didn't help but I didn't feel any of the cables for excess warmth or anything. I have the feeling that it is going to fall back on the starter needing to be replaced. I am going to go ahead and pull out the air filter and still look in the carb just to make sure that all looks clean. At this point I would love to find a nest of some kind in the filter. That is much cheaper and easier to fix. I'll feel like an idiot for not having been able to ride my bike for all this time if that is all it is, but at least I'll be riding!

I am out of town this coming weekend for the 4th so I may not have any updates till I get back early next week. Thanks again for your help and time, I really appreciate it!

BullHazzer

Update:
Looked to clean the air filter and come to find out there is no filter on the bike anymore! The previous owner must have removed it because I have never had one. Carbs look clean, floats are intact, the gas line from the tank to the carbs are not plugged, fuses are in good shape.

All that really seems to be left is to pull parts and go get them tested, or taking the whole thing to a bike shop and letting them diagnose the problem. I think I'll pull the starter and see if it is bad. May also see if I can get it rebuilt for less than what a new unit would cost. If I have to put another $500 into this bike, I would almost look for another old used (working) bike and buy it.

Next update may once again be a while.

rockogre

The carbs may be clean and all but if I had a vehicle that was running without an air filter I would sure do a compression check before I put any serious money into it. I would also check the oil for metal.

I'd hate to see you put $500 in a bike that had no power and drank oil.

__________________
Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you,
Jesus Christ and the American G. I.
One died for your soul, the other for your freedom