pan6467

If you look back, my stance on this has never changed. I have always been saying the same thing when it comes to class structure. So, forgive me but I don't understand this whole "just discovered" bs.

---------- Post added at 02:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:08 AM ----------

See, with that thinking though comes telling people how to spend their money and the end of freedom. I can't nor will never think that way. To tell someone working 40 hours a week making $10 how they spend their money or to ridicule them because they want to enjoy a little is not my cup of tea.

If you truly did that, then my hats off to you. I worked 40 hours a week, making $8.50 to roughly $10 within the last 4+ years (up to a grand 11.40 now). And at that time, by the time child support came out and I paid rent, utilities, food, gas to just get to work and home, minimum car insurance, I barely had enough to survive. If not for the minimal help of my mother (if a tire blew or an emergency arose) and student aid, I couldn't have survived and that was cutting back on everything but cable and a cell phone.... both of which I was getting great deals on. And that was living in a lower cost of living area than you.

Some people work the system, some may have inherited a little and believe it or not, just because you are poor doesn't mean you have to wear shoes with duct tape.... in fact if you do, good luck getting a job. He may have gotten those shoes through a charity/Goodwill or Salvation Army sell some nice clothes, shoes and so on cheap... I know when I was making that money back then, I shopped there and even now I buy stuff there at times. Found a nice leather St John's Bay coat that was like brand new for $15, went to JCPenney's and saw the same coat for almost $300. What's a decent watch to you? It may have looked nice but so do many watches at Wal*Mart and thrift stores... did you get a close enough look at the name?

My point is, it is complete and utter bullshit to assume that he spent big bucks on what he had, there are many ways he could have gotten those articles. Doesn't mean his family is still not in need.

No, not socialist. I think a free market with restraints/regulations and private ownership is the only economic system that allows true personal freedom. Once you allow government to own anything, freedom, IMHO, goes out the door because the government wants to maximize the workers earning potential, plus it allows government too much control over the people.

So, no..... I cannot say I am a Socialist. I just believe in the social responsibilities that come with wealth. I believe the only way to attain true wealth physically, spiritually and mentally is to take a fair share of your investment in a company and spread the rest out equally in regards to the workers.

Henry Ford once said, Somewhere along that line, the ultra rich forgot that reasoning.

He also said:

I'd like to find a site that has my favorite Ford quote but I can't, it goes something like this:

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

roachboy

pan---you act all shocked and outraged that there is a class structure and that this class structure has consequences. you act as though this represents some kind of Problem for the american political system. fact is that the system is built around the class structure. i just don't think you have a terribly coherent idea of what that means.

since you've taken to quoting one of my favorite american fascists, henry ford (you know, ole hank, the guy who sponsored the translation of the protocols of the elders of zion and who broke with hitler in the early 1930s because he wasn't anti-semetic enough; ole hank, the guy responsible for a sustained war on labor unions culminating in the lovely river rouge battles of the 1940s; ole hank, the guy who also decided to rationalize american folk music and dance because it offended his fascist sense of nation that there were multiple traditions...good old henry ford...a jonas brother amongst intellectuals), i'll offer you in return a little nugget from marx:

Marx, German Ideology (1845)

so let's say for a second that this is close to accurate in principle. that would mean that your entire "politics" of revolution really is nothing but a snippy inversion of the dominant ideology.

you are a product of a system of social reproduction; you repeat the ways of thinking that underpin the worldview that you think you oppose in the ways in which you oppose it. this leaves you no alternative but to imagine that the problem is that there's been some sort of Betrayal of the Amurican Way by one or another collection of Bad People---recently you've been trying to argue that these Bad People are somehow affiliated with the obama administration, which explains your foray into the tea party farce. whatever, it doesn't matter. you are stuck juxtaposing some imaginary "Real American Political System" with some equally vague existing arrangement, opposing the latter in the name of the former and then proceeding to talk about taking up arms in some kind of equally imaginary revolutionary movement.


you're a gun and a uniform fetish away from militia world, pan.
and what you take for revolution would be-----at the very best-----a kind of beerhall putsch.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

ring

Look up the skinny on Walt Disney, as well.
Yikes.

Baraka_Guru

Pan, you should have at least quoted Peter Drucker, who knew better than Ford: management isn't about production, price, and profit exclusively:

"[CEO compensation more than 20 times what the rank and file make—especially at companies where thousands of employees are being laid off]—is morally and socially unforgivable, and we will pay a heavy price for it.”

"[The concept of profit maximization] is a major cause of the misunderstanding of the nature of profit in our society and of the deep-seated hostility to profit, which are among the most dangerous diseases of an industrial society."

"To know what a business is, we have to start with its purpose. Its purpose must lie outside of the business itself. In fact, it must lie in society since business enterprise is an organ of society. There is only one valid definition of business purpose: to create a customer."

The problem isn't with business. The problem is with poorly managed businesses.

You can't fix this with guns.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

pan6467

Because I like some quotes from a man does not mean I like the man. Henry Ford's actions were not great. Some things he said were. 2 totally different things. The quotes I used above, to me are very good quotes from a man who built a very profitable business. His actions towards his workers were in no way supportive of the quotes but that does not give any less strength to what was said, just that the man saying them did not follow through on his own beliefs.

Trust me I know my American history. But again, believe what ever you want about me. This quote and the previous one you had to me sound more like you are trying to read deeper than what there is or perhaps not seeing what I have written.

As far as taking arms against anyone, unless my freedom is at stake, I seriously doubt that my beliefs would ever become popular enough for many to take arms for.

What I am seeing from you and others are excuses for the fucked up system and how you truly think about the average person and that disgusts me. But that is your right. But enjoying your right to believe whatever you choose to do not belittle, berate or try to show your belief is better than mine. Beliefs/opinions are like assholes... we all have them and they all smell.

It is when I am not allowed to express my beliefs freely, to not share/debate my beliefs and trade ideas, that I will take arms.... against those oppressing my ideas or against myself. Because the freedom to have, share and express my ideas, not just politically but in religion, art, life in general is to me my most important right as a human and would be the one I would fight to the death for.

---------- Post added at 12:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:25 PM ----------

I extremely agree with Drucker's quote above.

I agree with business and privately owned business there isn't true problems. It is when the people running those businesses feel they have the right to rape and pillage the company and workers that the problem begins.

Again, just because I have quotes from Ford does in no way mean I am a believer in his actions. I am a believer in the quotes above and that perhaps instead of lip service perhaps Ford should have lived by his own words.

No, you can't fix this with guns, only by opening minds expressing ideas on how to find better solutions and developing then following that plan making adjustments as needed if something doesn't work or you find a better way. It's finding compromise so that we all can move forward and live in the prosperity each person has the ability and freedom to make for themselves.

Without compromise and finding middle ground the country, the people and the whole human race may as well go back to carrying clubs and living in fucking caves. It is compromise and working together for common goals that got us to the moon, that beat Hitler, that built this nation to be the once greatest nation ever seen.

It was only when compromise and finding middle ground, failed to work because sides saw those as weaknesses that we began to fail.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

roachboy

pan---what i take exception to is your empty talk about revolution. the argument is basically that you haven't thought it through far enough--like anywhere near far enough---so when i read you trying to invoke it as a way of basically adding some spice to being snippy, there's always a little fight that happens in my head as to whether i am going to take you on or not regarding this. suffice it to say that i come out of a marxist background and so to my mind almost all of what you talk about as problematic concerning the american system looks to me like it is as it is as a function of capitalism. unless you go after that, you aren't talking about anything remotely like revolution. o sure, the militia types would like to imagine that because in their dreamlands they pantomime minutemen that they're somehow revolutionaries--but mostly they're just pathetic.

when i posted about the dominant ideology, i wrote quickly and in the process ended up sounding as though somehow or another i was outside it and you weren't...if only things were that simple...but they aren't. so my apologies for that.

i didn't say anything about "the average person" and really don't care what does and does not "disgust" you about what you imagine my attitude toward this construct of yours to be. you're making up everything you impute to me, so the problems with what you say are yours, not mine. think what you like. it really is of no consequence.

what's hilarious is that you imagine that because i think your "revolutionary" politics are shallower than shallow that somehow or another i am an apologist for the existing order standing in the way of the Heroic March of folk like yourself Forward toward some Brighter Future. you're so completely wrong that it's hard to know where to start with it: what's clearer is that starting isn't worth the time or energy---here's why: this whole business whereby you set yourself up as some Lenin holding out against a world of apologists for the existing order--no matter whether these apologists are figments of your imagination or not---- is nothing more than the introduction of yet another round of what seems to be your favorite game: poor me.
and that, pan, is not a game i have the slightest interest in playing with you again.
if you want to play a different game, then fine--but wading through another series of posts that are about your victimization, no. not interested.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Willravel

I'm not telling them how to spend their money, just how not to spend it. And there's no rule anywhere that says teaching fiscal responsibility is the end of freedom. In fact, I'd say education and the application of good education is key to freedom.

Anyway, it's not difficult to see when someone is spending his or her money in a way that's irresponsible. If someone is spending money on luxury items but can't afford enough food for his or her family, that should be lauded? Of course not. Worse still is the man making $30k a year that signed a mortgage for a home that costs $600k.

We're all interconnected, Pan. I spend very responsibly, I'm out of debt and have a respectable nest-egg in case something goes wrong. I make small investments that generally are slightly profitable, but I never take big risks. I am fiscally responsible. And yet the money in my savings has decreased in worth because the US$ has dropped in worth. My home is worth maybe 71% of what it was 3 years ago. Why? Not by my doing. No, it was by the irresponsible behaviors and beliefs of others that I've lost somewhere in the neighborhood of $350,000 worth of theoretical home value and monetary value. Because these things have a direct effect on me, they are mine to judge and I judge them without guilt. They don't have the freedom to damage my financial security.
Okay, bad example. I'll give you a good example: sub-prime people.
I was half-kidding. It's not alright with me either that incomes are so extreme. When I think of the billions of dollars that upper management or hedge fund managers made last year when there are so many minimum wage backs they built their fortunes on, it makes me sad. Still, liberals have been called socialist (or worse) for years for merely suggesting that income should be a little more fair.

Once you allow the market to own anything, freedom, IMHO, goes out the door because the market wants to maximize the workers efficiency (more work for less pay), plus it allows the market too much control over the people. This is why you need a small measure of regulation, just to make sure that people aren't getting ripped off by millionaire CEOs.

pan6467

Yes we are all interconnected and it shows more in turbulent times than it does in prosperous. I think our differences here maybe the fact I blame the top 5% class for their greed and making the problems we have by not paying the worker what the worker needs to survive.

It's easy to tell a worker "live within your means" while the CEO and upper management rape the company for all it's worth and get bonuses when they layoff people or golden parachutes when the company they ran goes into the dumpster.

Upper management wants to say it's paid because they put the stake into the company...again as Ford (I know I know) stated "A company is owned by the customer". If management worked as hard to find and develop better product as it does to blame the workers, government and so on for the way things are, they may show profitability and increase in their salaries that way instead of having to rape and pillage the workers and company into bankruptcy.

People are people. If they saw an opportunity to buy a house and were told they could afford it, then of course they are going to. Government knew what was going on so did the banks... they knew there would be a bubble bursting and they did nothing. So who is to truly blame. I can't blame the people for wanting a chance at a better life. I blame government for not protecting the people and the banks for knowing what they were doing but not caring. If the rates hadn't gone up, if gas hadn't ballooned, a lot of the housing would have been ok. The rates going up I still have to hear good reasons for.

True. I think that's a NeoCon right way to scare people. Scare tactics work.

Agreed 100% here as I stated a free market with restraints and regulations. I don't think that the top 5% are evil as a whole. I think greed takes one over as they acquire more and greed affects rational thinking.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Iliftrocks

Does anyone really know of anyone who made 30k that got a loan for 600k? Nobody did. Some people got loans that might have been about twice what they could afford, most got less, but when the interest shot up and the payment went way too high.... A good chunk of these people were told that these ARM loans were normal and that they could afford them, and the bank wouldn't jack the interest up so high, so fast. They were lied to, so the bank could get a lot of these loans closed and sold off to investors.

I personally got an ARM, (against my better judgement, I blame my ex), but I can still afford to pay the payments, because my bank isn't going nuts and jacking up the interest faster than they promised. I make around 75k and the MOST I could get was a loan for 240k. I guess I should have held out for a million.....

__________________
bill hicks - "I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out."

Willravel

Oops, I missed this:
I can't tell you how glad it makes me to read you saying that. I totally agree. The top 1%, the developing oligarchy, are out of control and its about damned time that we have things like executive pay limits imposed in order to force the ultra-rich to allow their money to trickle down to the hard workers that they build their fortunes on. I'm not against hard workers getting paid for their hard work, but I'm against the working class getting ripped off. So I'm totally with you so far.
I think that's a different issue, though. There's the issue of vast wealth inequality, which is an issue of fairness, and there's the issue of living within one's means, which is an issue of pragmatism. Am I making sense? I say we should fight tooth and nail to make sure hard working people aren't getting ripped off, but until we score that glorious victory it's up to us to ensure that they don't break us (though now that I think of it, I'm probably not one of the "us"s because I'm pretty comfortable). Every time a minimum wage earner wastes money he or she needs just to stay afloat, they're supporting the vampiric debt industrial complex that further enslaves them financially. Every time someone borrows money they can't pay back in this country, the "ruling class" earns another indentured servant. That's a bigger threat to the poor than the corrupt, golden-parachute-wearing pricks that enjoy an outrageous salary made off the poor. The poor should avoid debt like it's the plague. They should avoid wasteful spending. It's not about me judging them, either. I'm speaking from my own experience. I made it. I was poor from the day my dad first moved our family so he could go to the seminary to the day I got my job after graduating from college. I want everyone to have the opportunity to taste the sweet taste of success.
There's more than enough blame to go around. Congress, Clinton, Bush, banks, and yes, the people that put their John Hancock on the mortgages; they're all to blame. I get that real estate isn't simple. I had an interesting adventure buying my house from a family member that I might retell someday. Still, I didn't walk into it blind at all. No one should.
Scare tactics are used to control. What's needed is proper education. These people walked into a trap and didn't have a clue. It's time for people to wise up and learn about these things before signing papers.
Glad we're on the same page.

The_Dunedan

I will say only this:

Having sold a -lot- of those guns and ammo everyone's so worried about, I think I have a pretty good notion of the motives informing this rush to arm.

Nobody is preparing, from what I can see, for a Revolution. Certainly nobody I've seen intends to start a fight.

People are preparing to defend themselves from a threat they perceive, realistically or not, as an assault on their entire culture and way of life. They are preparing to fight to their deaths in defense of their homes, families, and culture. They are drawing lines in the sand. And if even 1% of the gunowning American public decides to resist whatever-it-is through force of arms...this is gonna be one HELLUVA gunfight. These people have been pushed around, demonized, harassed, and browbeaten by the past three Administrations. They are well aware of their tormentors; bankers, industrial Mercantilists, the Military-industrial Complex, etc. They see these interests acting in concert with the current Leftist control of the Legislative and Executive branches (always to their detriment), and they are sick of it. They have mostly given up on such niceties as voting and protest and petition-signing, since nobody pays them any heed anyway (Bailouts, wars, etc come immediately to mind) and are "hunkering down," hoping to avoid notice if possible...and preparing to fight like cornered rats if not.

If Revolution comes, it will because somebody was forced (in his mind) to defend himself/herself, and their friends came a-runnin'. Misguided and misinformed though they may sometimes be, these folks will not -start- a fight. Most are fatalistically aware that they cannot realistically hope to -win- such a fight in concrete, numerical terms. But fight they will, at least some percentage, until they are killed in the doing.

"Progressive" and Leftist cultural imperialists would do well to meditate upon this at length, especially upon the fact that if even 1% of the gunowning public resists, they will have to kill somewhere north of 850,000 people. They will have to kill men, women, and babes in arms. They will have to be willing to join the ranks of Pol Pot and Idi Amin. And that's not counting any of their perceived aggressors whom the insurgents manage to take with them.

Leave them alone, and they will leave you alone. Poke them with a stick and, to paraphrase General Giap, they will kill all you send...or die trying.

4,500,000 firearms were sold in the last 3 months of 2008, along with over 1,300,000,000 rounds of ammunition. If nothing else the sheer numbers bear consideration.

As I said; meditation at length.

Edited To Add:

An equally large number of people, many quite inexperienced with firearms, are also arming-up in anticipation of a rise in violent crime during what many worry will be a generational economic depression. Last time around,, they think to themselves, we got John Dillinger and Clyde Barrows and Al Capone. And that was in the '20s and '30s, when 50% of the population still lived on farms and could at least feed themselves...these days it's less than 5%! These days we have the Bloods, Crips, Aryan Nations, National Alliance MS-13, Latin Kings, Folk Nation, not to mention freelance thugs and sneak-thieves, and an almost entirely urban population. Oh HELL. "Hot" home invasions have been on a slow increase nationwide for years, and this disturbing trend combined with the sure prospect of severe recession or depression bringing on a rise in poverty (and therefore crime), has a lot of people very worried.

pan6467

Yes, but we have Obama and the Democrats running this country and they will fix it all. No need for guns in the next 7 years we will all live in peace and poverty will not exist. Haven't you heard the news.... GM and Chrysler plants closing thousands upon thousands more will be losing their jobs but Bernanke says the recession is ending later this year..... put the guns away...... Obama and the Dems are solving poverty and taking us all into Utopia and with Utopia there will be no crime thus no need for guns.

I think I'll write Obama and tell him as much maybe he can get through legislation to end gun ownership since the recession is ending and he has plans for the end of poverty and thus crime.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Tully Mars

A recession and owning a gun are connected? So I lost my job and need a gun to hold up the local bank? Or... everyone lost their jobs and I just gotta shoot someone, where's that tall tower? Or maybe a little more logical... a bunch of my neighbors lost their jobs and they might try to stealing my stuff; I want the option of shooting them if that happens.

And the auto industry largely screwed themselves. I'm not thrilled with the way the good folks in DC treated the blue collar workers as opposed the bankers but the recession may well end with them in the dust.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

pan6467

It was a sarcastic reply adding to the quoted post which had this and thus my post was created:

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Charlatan

Why is it that when ever a Democrat is in the White House there is talk of revolution?

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Plan9

I know, right? Republicans have done so much to help the economy in the last XX years. Time to change the flavor of the "good old boys" we have running the country to something with less of a southern drawl and a more diverse skin color. Perhaps that's too progressive for parts of America here in 2009.

...

This old Red Dawn bullshit speaks of new generation of lower middle class meatheads that are starting to experience their first real hardship. Gotta blame somebody: "snobby liberals" in the government. Gotta have some kind of magical power trinket to cuddle like an adult security blanket: guns, guns, guns.

"Holy shit, Jethro... if I hadn't spent $6k on these tricked ARs and 1911s I coulda dealt with being unemployed for a few weeks! Gosh dangit!"

Plenty of individual idiots with guns. But a cohesive unit with a grievance that has escalated beyond moderate, civil protest? Pfft, not in the US. Hah, closest thing we have to an "armed revolution" here in the US is the ELF/ALF... armed with Molotovs and strictly targeting property (no-kill philosophy).

I've got half a dozen "assault weapons" within ten feet of me as I sit here and write this. They're pretty much useless for the problems we face today.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

dksuddeth

I sometimes sit here and imagine what the looks of utter shock on some faces are going to look like when the next waco rolls around. Most people like to sit at their computers and firmly believe that nobody in the great american nation would ever willingly stand up to the mightiest army the world has ever seen, yet are totally oblivious to the atmosphere and attitudes of the portion of this population as it concerns their continuing antipathy regarding ever increasing encroachment of the federal government. We see it daily in the news now, states making resolutions or introducing bills to increase the strength of the 10th Amendment. States rights/powers are not just important to the legislatures of those states. Most of those legislative bodies are finally listening to a growing pool of pissed off people.

someone up front of this post had it right on when they talked about community level events. There are some communities/neighborhoods who have gotten very close and tight with one another. Those of like minds and attitudes concerning the federal government have made decisions on any reactions from them, should something occur. This community just might be your next waco. Understand that if something like waco were to happen again, no number of news reports detailing planned terrorism, drug trading, child molestation, or anything that would normally rile up the majority of the populace in to supporting the government will be enough to put out the fanned flames of anger and retribution. It will indeed start small, but like the california wildfires growing with the wind, you'll see an inevitable onslaught of small and growing firefights between these communities and 'oppressive' forces.

As to the viability of success? Dunedan has it about right just for starters. 850,000 people who feel strongly enough about freedom in this country, rightly or wrongly, will violently react. If you choose to disregard these numbers, I suggest you reconsider by googling 'three percenters', 'oath keepers', and 'kill all they send'. It's not just the 'far right wing' you need to worry about either. It's the quiet middle ones that will prove the surprise to you. People who you would never have thought to be so inclined, will shock the hell out of you as they join with the so called 'extremists'.

There will be no more free wacos, but what should scare people more than the thought of some small violent skirmish of far right nut jobs should be the impending example that the government will need to make out of a group of people as the growing wave of limited federal government support grows. The match is already lit, it's just waiting for the feds to light the fuse.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Plan9

Just think... I'm going to be part of the Great Jackbooted enemy, DK. Oh noes!

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

dksuddeth

Inigo Montoya(crompsin): You seem a decent fellow. I hate to kill you.
Westley(DK): You seem a decent fellow. I hate to die.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Plan9

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Willravel

There most certainly will be more free Wacos. And free Ruby Ridges. And free Katrina gun confiscations. And free moderate rulings by the SCOTUS on the Second Amendment. And free gun control laws. And pretty much free everything.

DK, you're rare in that you're a part of gun culture but you're not a part of authoritarian/establishment culture. Most gun culture'd people are all about supporting the troops, supporting police and firemen, supporting the Republicans in congress and in the White House, etc and supporting the corporations that infect the free market. They absolutely love the daddy state. They love the politicians that say they want limited government while at the same time are making huge grabs for power and spending billions of taxpayer dollars. I've got news for you, if things do really escalate in this country to where you're concerned they might, a state requiring armed insurrection, it's going to be the daddy state that's responsible. Because of that, most of the armed populace, those enamored with the Second Amendment, will join the escalation instead of fight against it. You and I will find ourselves on the same side facing most of the people Dunedan described buying up all those guns and ammo.

dksuddeth

and you will be one of those wearing the utter look of shock I talked about.

Will, all you are doing is listening to one of the squeaky wheels and equating that with 'most', when it's not really as accurate as you claim it to be. I seriously doubt that anything i'm going to put in this post is ever going to change your opinion on the issue, but as I said before, it's relatively easy to get a gauge of just how large this sentiment is throughout the country. I'm not saying that it's even 10 percent of the country with those feelings, or even 5%, though it could certainly grow to that.

Your line of thought process in this is not much different than most others in the world, where you think that every warm body in government service is going to be in lockstep with their government orders, and that just couldn't be any further from the truth.

Don't listen to me though, i'm just another rightwing gun nut who thinks the federal government is the enemy.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

You're not right wing, though, and that's the point. Sure, you're conservative (by my definition) and you're libertarian, but you're not right wing. You're not a Bush Republican. Shit, you're not even a Reagan Republican (even if you think you are). Because you're neither of these things, you and your ilk are separated from a majority of conservatives in gun culture. Sure, there are others like you, but you'd be in the minority at a Tea Party or NRA convention. Or in line at the gun store.

If you want evidence of lockstep, look at the past 8 years for truckloads of it. Not one shot was fired as one of the most repressive governments of my lifetime spied on dissidents, kidnapped and tortured people, etc. etc. etc. When Clinton was being what I thought at the time was a bad president, conservatives were going nuts. He was almost impeached over what had to be a pretty shitty bj. Someone blew up an entire federal building. During Bush? Nada. That tells me one thing; if there's a Republican in office when that Orwellian line is eventually crossed—and if Reagan/Bush1/Bush2 are any indication, there will be—the conservative right wingers won't have the objectivity to rebel.

roachboy

let's say that you're right and this "fire" catches just because that's what they do and so there's no particular need to engage in any political work beyond hanging out with people who agree with you up front and who are also armed to the teeth. what you're talking about, then, is a coup d'etat carried out by small heavily armed rightwing paramilitaries. so what you're talking about is turning the united states into a place that resembles the places that the united states has in the past destabilized using far right heavy-armed paramilitaries. this doesn't sound like something that would really catch on...you know, join the coming right-wing paramilitary coup d'etat.

you aren't talking about a revolution because these communities talk to and about themselves. they don't have a particularly coherent alternative vision of how things would actually be run--so actually holding power is a blank space---but instead, there's lots of fantasies about constitutional fundamentalism and a return to "real america" and all that---which doesn't sound to me like anything other than a kind of flag-waving amurican fascism.

i don't particularly want to see people getting shot up in great number by a bunch of "minutemen"---nor by the civil war that you'd trip if you actually get anywhere near posing the danger to the dominant order that you imagine would be so easy peasy to pose. nor do i want to see what you people would do with the urban populations, which is where your politics are likely to get no support at all anywhere. you don't seem to spend a whole lot of time thinking about what you'd do with political opposition, so i assume that were your fantasy coup d'etat to get rolling, you'd be lumping them in with the other Enemies...and since you imagine yourself Completely and Entirely correct in your politics, in your tactics, in your view of the order you and your milita buddies would bring crashing down on us if by some fluke you weren't all wiped out, i read your pipedreams of revolution and think

good old american fascists with just a twist of khymer rouge thrown in.

so i hope you're just dreaming, dk.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Willravel

I can see the t-shirts now. They'd probably be black, with a central logo. I can even see the arm bands. Yikes, those arm bands sorta look like....

dksuddeth

this is where you have it wrong, roach. Those who are of the 'rebellious' set are not of the mindset of revolution, insurrection, overthrow, or any other term you want to use in the belief that we want to take over the government. The 3 percenters, oath keepers, minutemen, etc. only want the government RESTORED to what it should be and that is a very far cry from what it is now. Worry about the urbanites as well, for they are a mixed bag. Some are quite happy with the totalitarianism being implemented around cities like chicago and nyc. some are not. it is for them to choose and I cannot say what would happen one way or the other, other than to tell you that it wouldn't be fascism, not that you'd accept that either.

Will, you have a small point about the BUSH lockstep, alot of things were done in the furtherance of 'executive' power, but again what you heard was the squeaky wheel and NOT the overall middle of the road populace. People are learning and Katrina was a huge part of that lesson. Where some used to think that such a blatant disregard of the fundamental rights of Americans could NEVER happen here, now they know better. No, will, there will be no more free wacos or katrinas or ruby ridges.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Plan9

... I'll take Emo Pinwheels for 500.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Willravel

People have been saying this for as long as I can remember. "Next time, oh yes, next time we will stand up!" You yourself said it long before Katrina. What did you in response to the Katrina gun grab? You probably got really mad and vented online. Maybe you bought some more ammo. Still, nothing was done at all. They came for your (collective your) guns, and you did nothing. I'm not trying to be an asshole, but why didn't you go down there and fight back? And what makes you think that the next one will be any different than the last?

dksuddeth

ever heard of geography? you know my personal situation, if they were grabbing guns in Austin, i wouldn't head down there. If they decided to do it in my neighborhood? then they get to see if they can catch bullets.

Don't be silly and stupid by thinking that all of us gunowners or libertarians, or even anti government folks all held a meeting and told ourselves that we won't stand for it here. I know that my neighbors and I got together and said that we won't stand by and let it happen to us. If they come for one, they get to meet us all. I'm sure we're not the only neighborhood to consider that.

all in all, it matters little to me. i know what i'll do if it comes to my neck of the woods.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

No, but I'm a quick study.
Maybe, but are you really going to say that no one in New Orleans has a similar disposition? Of course not, there are plenty of people in New Orleans that believe firmly in an "originalist" interpretation of the Second Amendment and believe, similarly to you, that if someone comes to take their guns, they'; open fire. And they didn't do anything at all. Not one shot was fired. All of the people there that were just like you didn't do anything but complain.

Put yourself into the scenario. There's a natural disaster, let's say an F5 tornado decimates your area, leaving tens of thousands homeless and untold dead. People are being evacuated because the storms are still coming. You know people are are dead, or have had their homes and business destroyed. You're scared, as you should be. There's a knock at the door, so you go to answer, and it's 10 armed city police officers, National Guard members, and US marshals (iirc, there were 6-10 men were at Patricia Konie's door). You instantly think of your closest weapon, I won't pretend to know where or what it might be, but then you likely realize that you can't take all of these guys without likely getting killed yourself. Maybe you can take two or three with you, maybe.

Are you sure you'd open fire?

dksuddeth

one thing to remember, will, is that these people in New Orleans had no power, no communications, and had basically been abandoned. When the then chief of police gave his news conference ordering the disarmament, nobody in New Orleans knew or could know, so when they see and hear armed police and guardsmen coming to their door, they were thinking 'finally some sort of help', too late to realize that they just got screwed by their own government. It only needed to happen once, it did, and now most of the people KNOW not to trust that they won't attempt to disarm them again. The ones who really screwed up were the police and guardsmen who actually followed those illegal orders because they put the lives of other police and guardsmen at risk if another disaster pops up.

as to your scenario, knowing what I know now, I don't just blindly answer the door. If I see a squad of armed men in uniforms, they are promptly invited to leave the property, one warning only. If they refuse to leave or attempt to enter, I have no qualms about emptying every magazine I have.

If they attempt to disarm me, I will kill all they send.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

Okay, like I said, you check your door and see 10 armed police/National Guard/US Marshals. Knowing what you know from Katrina, you should through the door, right? Maybe, "What do you want?". When they reply, "We need to confiscate your weapons per our orders.", you give them the warning, "No, get off my property right now"? This is how I see the events following: They try your door, you open fire, hitting one or two right off the bat. They return fire, firing blindly into your home (which isn't bulletproof). If they managed not to hit you, they're likely spitting up to enter your home from different angles while calling for backup. I realize that you're probably a good shot, but so are they. Rambo could kill an encampment of Asians, Jack Bauer could empty a building of terrorists, but in real life you'd be outnumbered and thus likely outmaneuvered. You'd probably kill several of them, but they'd get you. Eventually, you'd die.

I don't want you to die, DK. Nothing would be served by your death other than maybe an NRA lawsuit and some very angry blogs.

dksuddeth

the problem, will, is there needs to be a line in the sand. I faced death a long time ago and it does not frighten me.

p.s. you're also looking at this scenario as if i'm alone. I can assure you, I would not be alone. let's look at the scenario a little further down the line. In the ensuing firefight, say two or three end up dead, and one or two more injured. With NOT knowing who and how many are still in my home, what's the first thing that the rest of them are going to do? If you guessed 'call for backup', you'd be right. Once that call hits the airwaves, the game is up. the media will get ahold of that and within a day, everyone and their brother is going to know about it. On top of that, if you remember in Katrina aftermath, the police and national guardsmen only entered a select few neighborhoods. They conveniently stayed out of neighborhoods where groups of neighbors bound together in groups and patrolled their streets. It was not a fight that those guardsmen/police wanted.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

I don't remember reading about the police avoiding gun-thick neighborhoods. And I read as much as I could find about that because it kinda freaked me out.

roachboy

dk:

i've spent the last 10 minutes trying to figure out a way to characterise your last few posts and the politics behind it that does not involve the word sociopathic, but i can't do it.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Willravel

Two words, comrade: gun culture. It's something I've found to be unique, mainly because of the uniqueness of the gun. Certainly you're not of the gun-folk, and neither am I, but I'm sure you can understand the attraction of the gun. It's a cold, precision instrument of absolute power over life and death that you can hold in your hand. With it you can vanquish even the most powerful foe with only the pulling of a trigger and an unleashing of unmistakable power and flash and noise. Moreover, it's a part of the conservative mythology, about great men fighting against an unbeatable opponent with just their wits and their guns, like David standing before Goliath with just a stone and sling. It's considered a sacred right, having a gun, and anyone that challenges that right assumes the roll of a mythical villain, the evil, powerful, corrupt government usually. Objectivity doesn't even enter into the equation, the roles are already established and any differences between a beat cop coming around to collect guns and an evil government operative working on behalf of the Orwellian leftist administration aren't even perceived.

I've spoken to people that would make our DK seem like a liberal, anti-gun pinko. This is what they live, each one believing him or herself to be the storybook hero in an epic battle with pure evil.

I mean no disrespect, DK, but my understanding of gun culture comes from a very, very different place than yours. I'd still be honored to fight back to back with you should we ever find ourselves in true danger.

Plan9

*Hamlet-style palmface*

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

dksuddeth

rb, it really comes down to whether or not you believe freedom is real or just something you like to dream about. I will not be disarmed. I will not be ordered around or off my own property, I don't care who or what you are. I make my own decisions, my own fate. If self determination is sociopathic to you, then what do you consider non-sociopathic?

---------- Post added at 06:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:47 PM ----------

it doesn't matter what other 'groups' you've talked to will and it doesn't even have to be a gun with me. I'll use swords, knives, ball bats, even my bare hands. I refuse to back down anymore.

---------- Post added at 06:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:48 PM ----------

I've also dealt with the unwarranted loss of my freedom before, palm face that?

you're either free or you're not.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Charlatan

I just can't adjust to this distinctly American flavour of freedom... a freedom that is decidedly based around the individual. I am no communist but I do feel a responsibility to my family, my community and beyond...

Whenever this sort of rugged individualism rears its head, all I hear is: me, me, me.


(Marsha, Marsha, Marsha -- sorry, I hear that too )

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

JumpinJesus

Were these the gang members you disarmed with a deli sandwich?

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses