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Old 06-07-2003, 09:49 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Does the bible predict the future?

I pointed this out before the whole Iraq situation came into the spotlight, I wish I had gotten around to it back then so this can't just be attributed to 20/20 hindsight.

The book of Revelations is allegedly the Bible's account of what will happen leading up to the apocalypse. Chapter 18 seems to be a combination of metaphors and direct references to the war with, and demise of Iraq.
Quote:
18:1 After these things, I saw another angel coming down out of the sky, having great authority. The earth was illuminated with his glory.

18:2 He cried with a mighty voice, saying, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, and she has become a habitation of demons, a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird!

Iraq is considered to be the location of ancient Babylon. The demons, unclean spirits, and unclean and hateful birds represent Saddam's regime and his evil sons and followers.

18:3 For all the nations have drunk of the wine of her impure passion, the kings of the earth committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth grew rich from the abundance of her luxury."

The wine is the oil that the Iraqi government sold and used money from to buy weapons instead of food and medicine (impure passions)The merchants of the earth who grew rich are the countries who bought the oil, knowing that the money would go to weapon purchases, and the countries who sold them the weapons

18:4 I heard another voice from heaven, saying, "Come out of her, my people, that you have no participation in her sins, and that you don't receive of her plagues,

Bush's State of the Union Address and Powell's speech to the UN, warning the world not to associate with Iraq, and telling the world that they have bio-weapons (plagues)

18:5 for her sins have reached to the sky, and God has remembered her iniquities.

Bush's whole "God bless America, God is with us" position.

18:6 Return to her just as she returned, and repay her double as she did, and according to her works. In the cup which she mixed, mix to her double.

We destroyed Saddam's regime, destroyed his military, and removed his government. He tried to invade Kuwait, we doubled that and removed him. He tried to assassinate Bush, Sr. and we killed him and his sons for the evil things they did to people (he's as good as dead if we didn't get him)

18:7 However much she glorified herself, and grew wanton, so much give her of torment and mourning. For she says in her heart, 'I sit a queen, and am no widow, and will in no way see mourning.'

"I ... will in no way see mourning" The constant denial that we were winning, the claims that we would be defeated.

18:8 Therefore in one day her plagues will come: death, mourning, and famine; and she will be utterly burned with fire; for the Lord God who has judged her is strong.

"utterly burned with fire" is a good description of what happened to the government buildings in Baghdad. death, mourning, and famine are the destruction of military units and supply lines.

18:9 The kings of the earth, who committed sexual immorality and lived wantonly with her, will weep and wail over her, when they look at the smoke of her burning,

The suceess of our action scared the hell out of the "Axis of Evil" and other countries who suddenly wanted diplomatic talks to assure themselves that they won't be next. France, who has been accused of having secret diplomatic ties with Saddam's regime, is sufering from a 500 million dollar loss from the US boycott responding to their opposition to the destruction of those ties.

18:10 standing far away for the fear of her torment, saying, 'Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For your judgment has come in one hour.'

One hour, shock and awe. Great city of Babylon, Baghdad.

18:11 The merchants of the earth weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their merchandise any more;

If it is proven that they were supplying terrorists with weapons and funds, that would fit in perfectly here. Otherwise, could it be the loss of so much from stores and businesses due to looting? Or is it the secret ties with countries that supplied weapons to them in exchange for oil?

18:12 merchandise of gold, silver, precious stones, pearls, fine linen, purple, silk, scarlet, all expensive wood, every vessel of ivory, every vessel made of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble;

No more purchases of luxuries to fill Presidential palaces.

18:13 and cinnamon, incense, perfume, frankincense, wine, olive oil, fine flour, wheat, sheep, horses, chariots, bodies, and people's souls.

A continuation of the above, the fine foods, perfumes, cars, and slaves that were owned by Saddam and his sons.

18:14 The fruits which your soul lusted after have been lost to you, and all things that were dainty and sumptuous have perished from you, and you will find them no more at all.

The rulers of the country lost everything, and the museum's treasures were looted and may never be recovered.

18:15 The merchants of these things, who were made rich by her, will stand far away for the fear of her torment, weeping and mourning;

Again, those who had covert ties to Saddam's regime suffer.

18:16 saying, 'Woe, woe, the great city, she who was dressed in fine linen, purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls!
18:17 For in an hour such great riches are made desolate.' Every shipmaster, and everyone who sails anywhere, and mariners, and as many as gain their living by sea, stood far away, 18:18 and cried out as they looked at the smoke of her burning, saying, 'What is like the great city?'
18:19 They cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and mourning, saying, 'Woe, woe, the great city, in which all who had their ships in the sea were made rich by reason of her great wealth!' For in one hour is she made desolate.


In the 'Shock and Awe' campaign, palaces were destroyed, buildings were leveled, represented by the term "in one hour." The last sentence seems to refer to the fact that those who were made rich by their ties to the old regime and oil sales may lose it as the new government forms new diplomatic and economic ties.

18:20 Rejoice over her, O heaven, you saints, apostles, and prophets; for God has judged your judgment on her."

The declaration of victory, telling the pople of the world to rejoice because a 'threat to freedom' was destroyed, as always, with Bush thanking God for guiding America.

18:21 A mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and cast it into the sea, saying, "Thus with violence will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down, and will be found no more at all.
18:22 The voice of harpists, minstrels, flute players, and trumpeters will be heard no more at all in you. No craftsman, of whatever craft, will be found any more at all in you. The sound of a mill will be heard no more at all in you.
18:23 The light of a lamp will shine no more at all in you. The voice of the bridegroom and of the bride will be heard no more at all in you; for your merchants were the princes of the earth; for with your sorcery all the nations were deceived.
18:24 In her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been slain on the earth."


These last few lines seem to suggest that more may come, that 'Babylon' will be destroyed by divine intervention. This obviously hasn't happened. IT oculd be that the Bible didn't get it exactly right. It could be that more will happen, possibly renewed fighting. It could be that Saddam loyalists could dig up hidden weapons from Iraq's nuclear weapon program and launch a final attack against coalition forces.
Keep in mind that I thought out most of this half a year ago, before the war, so it's not really the same as making Nostradamus fit every situation. I suppose I may have made some stretches because of what I had expected to happen, but to me, it seemed fairly clear as to what this 'predicted.' I really don't know where I expect a discussion on this to go, but I thought some of you might find this interesting.
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Old 06-07-2003, 10:38 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Hmmm. It IS interesting, but to me it's interesting in the same way that any interpretation of Biblical prophecy is. It's certainly a fairly fitting interpretation. I'm not sure that the end of the world is coming, though.
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Old 06-07-2003, 11:13 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Doesn't *every* semi-realistic book have elements that can be applied (with hind-sight) to reality? In other words: doesn't every book "predict" the future in this way?
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Old 06-08-2003, 04:56 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Dragonlich: Exactly. This thread also reminds me of how the aztecs (or was is mayans) predict that the world will end in 2012 and that all of their previous predictions of catastrophes have only been off by extremely small margins. My response: it's all a crock of shit.
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Old 06-08-2003, 06:05 AM   #5 (permalink)
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it seems to me that other than the location, this could be attributed to any war. if we want to look back, you could fit all of this to wwII. doesn't really matter when you thought of it, it's easily open to general interpretation. mentionings of time don't necessarily have to do with real time, sorta like how the world was made in 7 days, that's been interpreted as being actually much longer periods, just depends on your interpretatoin.

last thing, you said that maybe the bible got the last part wrong a bit. well, if its right and telling the future and it is the apocalypse, then it won't get anything wrong. because for it to be the apocalypse, all of those things would have to happen.

in closing, if the glove don't fit, you must acquit.
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Old 06-08-2003, 06:15 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Pretty good analysis. For it to be biblical, though, the events in chapters 1 to 7 would have been revealed. I'm pretty sure we can agree that hasn't happened.
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Old 06-08-2003, 06:53 AM   #7 (permalink)
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18:1 After these things, I saw another angel coming down out of the sky, having great authority. The earth was illuminated with his glory.

The angel with great authority?



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Old 06-08-2003, 07:54 AM   #8 (permalink)
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what a crok of crap
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Old 06-09-2003, 04:50 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by KoperniK
what a crok of crap
Your eloquent argument has done more than any whit factual basis ever could to make me doubt myself.


Alpha phi, those are some really cool pictures, although I'm guessing that some photoshopping was involved, as I don't think military aircraft usually fire off entire arsnals at once.
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Old 06-09-2003, 05:09 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Photos of an Air Force C-130 releasing flares to repel heat seeking missiles.
The pattern formed by these"decoys" are how they got their name... Angel Decoy

As far as I know the pics are real...maybe some of our millitary tfp'ers could confirm or deny this?
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Last edited by alpha phi; 06-09-2003 at 05:21 AM..
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Old 06-09-2003, 05:22 AM   #11 (permalink)
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In answer to the question posed by the thread. No.
'nuff said!
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Old 06-09-2003, 05:32 AM   #12 (permalink)
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I'll take this in consideration and compare it to other prophecies noted..
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Old 06-09-2003, 10:12 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Could be...and I'm not saying it is...but it could be that George W. Bush was reading the Book of Revelations right about the same time you were MrSelfDestruct.
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Old 06-09-2003, 02:00 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Alpha Phi/Mr. Self Destruct,

Those pictures are real. I have the .mpeg they come from.

As to the "prophecy", since it was written its been applied to every major power/conflict including Saddam, The Soviet Union and Hitler, but most modern Biblical scholars agree that it was written in regards to Rome during the time of the Jewish uprising circa 70 CE.
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Old 06-09-2003, 02:04 PM   #15 (permalink)
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i'm sure there are things that seem like that but its probly a coincidence
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Old 06-09-2003, 03:31 PM   #16 (permalink)
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In all lies there lies truth. My personal feelings on it (which are based on nothing more then my own meandering thoughts and drug flashbacks) is that the acients (which include those who wrote the bible,the koran and all that other religious bric-a-brac) knew SOMETHING and that thing was true. They were just not totally sure what it is. We in this postmodern world of ours also have these feelings. Some more then others. The point is, the earth DID have a begining and it WILL have an end. We of course can not say when that end will be or how it will come. Humans (wether some want to admit it or not) are very spiritual. There IS things going on around us that can not be explain through science. Of course 90% of that what we think is this is not. Wow, I just reread that last sentance. That is close to the most confusing thing I have ever said. My point is that the majority of things that are spiritual in nature (ESP, Aliens,Wolf boy,seeing into the future) are in fact more of cases of mistaken identity and what then anything else. However I also think there cases of truth in some of them. Normally only part of it is true and typically the person who had the experiences can't figure out what WAS true and what it ment. My point comes down to this, the bible was written by a number of very spirtual (albeit possibly misguided) men. I find it very probable that at some point in that they DID hit on some truths. Or, as has allready been implied, its also possible that they were just educated and had a good understanding of the world around them. They knew that war had always been part of our history and probably safely assumed it would be for years to come. Its allready been pointed out that most of what has been said about Operation desert freedom (thats what it was called right? I forget allready) could be said about just about any miltary operation and definitely most wars.
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Old 06-10-2003, 08:33 PM   #17 (permalink)
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You could use just about any text written in an open enough style to predict the future. Look at how broadly-written Nostradamus' prophecies were- you could apply them to anything you wanted to.
I don't think the prophecies in Revelations are much different in style to what Nostradamus wrote. It's all in how you read it.
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Old 06-12-2003, 09:46 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I realize that this could be applied to any conflict, what really made the connection and made me notice it is the Baghdad/Babylon thing.

Back to a previous subject, I feel stupid for not frcognizing flares, I guess I'm just not used to seeing so many at once.
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Old 06-15-2003, 10:24 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrSelfDestruct
I realize that this could be applied to any conflict, what really made the connection and made me notice it is the Baghdad/Babylon thing.
add to that the plagues described "flesh eating insects and dieases"
West nile
aids
monkey pox
sars
anthrax
more showing up regularly.
locust swarms in the western USA
killer bees
how many have I missed?

also increased fighting over jeruselam?
jeruselam and babylon are supposed to be destroyed in a blink of an eye (two big bombs could do this)

Even if you don't belive in the revelations, remember:
there are enough people in the world who do to make them come to pass
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Old 06-15-2003, 05:34 PM   #20 (permalink)
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The whole truth

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Last edited by viking7; 02-14-2004 at 07:55 AM..
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Old 06-15-2003, 06:07 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I'm with the "no" camp. Must like Nostradamus, the bible is intentionally vague and can be interpreted in so many ways that unless it said, for example, "on September the eleventh the towers shall fall," it wouldn't really be making accurate predictions.
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Old 06-17-2003, 06:26 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Re: The whole truth

Quote:
Originally posted by viking7
The only truth
Ahh.......yes science!
This is a far more beliveable explaination of creation.
most religions seem to back this up.....(with religious beliefs added in)

Do you think planet X will have something to do with the earth's destruction(rebirth)?......how?.....second coming?

The gravity of such a large planet would easily do dammage.

could revelations be a historical record of the last return of planet X?....rather than a prediction?
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Old 06-17-2003, 10:04 AM   #23 (permalink)
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No it can't
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Old 06-17-2003, 04:10 PM   #24 (permalink)
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MrSelfDestruct are you posting this as a stange curiosity, or are you actually proposing that the bible predicts the future?

Why is it, that people can never "predict" the future BEFORE it happens? I mean where were all the Nostadamusites and the numerologists on Sept. 10th telling everyone to stay the fuck outta the towers?

What good is a prediction if it is so steeped in metaphor and sybolism that it can only be recognised afterwards. Yes MrSelfDestruct I relaise that you pointed out that you noticed this before the war, but do you really believe that armed with this information, you could have given any real prediction about the war? I mean lets face it, we all knew it was going ahead one way or another. Mayebe the bible will let us know where those damn weapons of mass destruction are!

As for the photos of the planes...they were posted tongue firmly in cheek I presume (hope)?
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Old 06-17-2003, 05:38 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Maybe the biblical flood was caused by the passing of Nibiru (planet of crossing). So yes! what some call predictions may well be accounts of events that that have passed and will return.
The great deluge is not confined to the Bible, the story is told all over the world.
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Old 06-18-2003, 09:07 AM   #26 (permalink)
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With a good imagination im sure you can connect anything in the book of revalations, (A book which could have easily been written by a pshyco man in his own right) to any type of situation or conflict. It was mentioned how the nations will reap the rewards, the wine, of babylon. I can see how you link that to the world and oil in Iraq but there are other similar things as well such as colonization when the industrialized nations took from the weaker colonies.

It just doesnt seem like enough exact evidence to me, Just like
Tom Thumb said

"on September the eleventh the towers shall fall,"

It really needs to say things like that rather than vague sentances which can be interpreted any which way.
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Old 06-18-2003, 12:19 PM   #27 (permalink)
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I think the bible does predict the future. But I happen to be a believer, so it is easier for me. Babylon is often portrayed as the "world system", instead of a specific location in prophecy. But that doesn't mean it isn't the specific place either. That's the thing about faith, if there were proof, it would cease to be faith, and having undone faith, God would have removed our ability to choose him based on free will. If we have no free will, then we cannot be held accountable for our actions. And where is the fun in that?
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Old 06-18-2003, 05:21 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Ganon, Babylon may be portrayed as the "world system" these days, but I'm pretty confident that back when the Bible was written, Babylon was pretty much just portrayed as Babylon.

The point is that we translate things to suit ourselves, we put spin on things, we always have and we probably always will.
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Old 06-18-2003, 08:34 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Ok. everyone is intitled to an opinoin. If you are a follower of Jesus and are intrested in bibical prediction, do a google search on antipas ministries and see what they say on this subject. You would never have guessed how far off you are MrSelfDestruct. Keep an open heart and remember your mind was given to you. Keep it open.....
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Old 06-18-2003, 10:14 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Wasn't Revelations written by the Essenes (?), a sect of Jews that rejected material goods, comfort and sex; lived in caves near the Dead Sea; and expected to fight the battle of Armageddon in their own lifetime? IMHO, crackpot rantings that have been immortalized by those who would chain our minds. God loves us and wants us to live free.
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