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Old 07-12-2003, 12:04 AM   #1 (permalink)
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question bout christians etc...

why do so many christians catholics etc feel its necessary to make u "See the truth" for lack of a better word/phrase. does it say somewhere in the bible that you should make believers out of non-believers or what, cuz i have no idea and its a damn pain in the ass always seeing ppl try to convince other to be christian. do they feel it makes them a better christian or something...god damn its annoying. so yea any input would be appreciated.



peace \/
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Old 07-12-2003, 12:09 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Yes, part of their faith is to "spread the good news". they feel that they are doing Gods work by trying to convert you.
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Old 07-12-2003, 12:26 AM   #3 (permalink)
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The clearest call to do so is called the Great Commission. This occurs in the Gospel according to Matthew when Jesus comes to the disciples after the resurrection. He tells them: "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."
KJV 28:19

I personally find enough opportunuties to talk about my faith with people of different backgrounds who are willing to listen(and share their faith with me, as well...) that i don't feel compelled to knock doors or to seek a non-willing audience. What they do with the ideas i give them, is all up to them.
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Old 07-12-2003, 03:25 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Alf, don't be too quick to judge. Consider the Christian perspective: you've just learned about this great new way of living, and you know about this easy way to improve your life and live forever. What kind of a bastard would you be if you didn't tell your friends about it?
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Old 07-12-2003, 07:24 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by TIO
Alf, don't be too quick to judge. Consider the Christian perspective: you've just learned about this great new way of living, and you know about this easy way to improve your life and live forever. What kind of a bastard would you be if you didn't tell your friends about it?
Especially since if you don't, there's a better than average chance they'll end up roasting in hell... But I tend to take the soft approach. People know I'm a Christian, and hopefully they'll see through my life what that means, and why that's a good thing. Or, at least, that a lot of their stereotypes about Christians are false.
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"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

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Old 07-12-2003, 10:40 AM   #6 (permalink)
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The best form of evangalism is to grow in your faith and to live it in your life.
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Old 07-12-2003, 05:18 PM   #7 (permalink)
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If only the churches could learn from the marketing techniques of the music and film industry! Just look at the Eminem and Marilin Manson fans (and dont tell me they are not a 'religion') . . . . . not to mention the current Charlies Angels Full throttle onslaught . . . . . so if you want to vent your ire consider the commercial exploitaions of youth! Those spreading the 'good word' are tame amateurs by comparison!
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Old 07-16-2003, 04:54 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by TIO
Alf, don't be too quick to judge. Consider the Christian perspective: you've just learned about this great new way of living, and you know about this easy way to improve your life and live forever. What kind of a bastard would you be if you didn't tell your friends about it?

OK, so I believe there is a line between telling friends (or whoever wants to listen) about your faith or beliefs and preaching about your faith, or trying to disprove or degrade this persons beliefs (to someone that did not ask for this). Not so much an intelligent argument, but a flat out "you are wrong" kind of attitude. That is my problem, I've met too many people like this, that just have to completely try to make me feel wrong (or guilty)about what I believe or do in my life.
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Last edited by bondagegirl; 07-16-2003 at 04:56 PM..
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Old 07-16-2003, 05:26 PM   #9 (permalink)
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"Best Form" of evangalism

Quote:
Originally posted by Lebell
The best form of evangalism is to grow in your faith and to live it in your life.
I tend to agree with the posts so far with one exception. I personally evangalize with my life and when people speak directly to me about faith, but I would not put a value judgement on it.

I think street preaching, passionate witnessing has its place. It serves a purpose to bring people to Christ. The key is to realize we all are given different gifts and are called to use it differently. My philosophy is to put it in God's hands. Someone at some point will present the gospel in a way that touches them.
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Old 07-16-2003, 08:39 PM   #10 (permalink)
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i dont like people selling me their religion. everyone should learn religious tolerance :T
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Old 07-18-2003, 04:28 PM   #11 (permalink)
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okay i dont mind knowing anyone's religion or even hearing their veiws about that said religion. I do however draw the line at forcing others to see thier religous veiws quoting the bible and saying that 'so and so ' is doomed to hell because they do not believe the same way. I appreciate that those i know respect my religion and beliefs i would never force my theological thoughts on the world because it is faith alone that will see me through to my destiny, not the convictions of someone who is under-educated about my beliefs.
but if someone were to ask i would tell them what i believe and why and that, my friends is educating the masses because if I have aided but one being one the road to spiritual enlightenment then I have done my duty to myself and my god!
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Last edited by crayzeeredhead; 07-18-2003 at 04:31 PM..
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Old 07-18-2003, 07:23 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Christians proselytize because they truly believe that it is a good act. If the Christian God really exists, then converting unbelievers is the better course of action as opposed to simply letting them be.

Imagine yourself as an engineer who has just discovered something very wrong with a Boeing 747. You are certain that the aircraft is unsafe for flight, but the airline's managers disagree and insist that the aircraft is fine. Given that the Boeing 747 is due for takeoff in a day or two, would you not do your best to convince them otherwise, even if they were firm in their beliefs and had no wish to suffer your technical arguments?

Now suppose that you genuinely believe that God exists, and that people who do not believe in God are heading for eternal damnation. Would you not try to save them, regardless of what they would like to believe?
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Old 07-18-2003, 09:54 PM   #13 (permalink)
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my turn.

The people who make it their live's work to tell you that you're damned to hell if you do not believe in what they do are not Christians. They are posers. they are like the semi goth kids who don't really have a fucking clue as to what is up but know that they need to be recognized.

it is our responsibility to preach Jesus' gospel. but see, I've managed to do it here a lot. a real lot. i haven't pissed off one person yet (that i know of) for stating my beliefes.

why? I do not bible thump. I know that to brow beat is pointless. i was bible th thumped my whole lie and all it did was make me hostile.

now I am a firm believer is Christ and i bring it up occasionally in a post, journal or chat. it makes people curious. then they want to knw more. then i can say 'let's try to show them the truth of my way of life and what and who Christ is and represents. I carry no dogma and have my mind as far opened as possible and my friends respect me and sooner or later they ask.
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Old 07-18-2003, 10:27 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I truly think that Christianiy is a false religion, trying to convince others in "your" beliefs and viewsis hopeless and there is no point to it. You cannot make a person comprehend something that he has lack of intrest in or just not at the stage of life where he can comprhend anything from any religion. People need to seek the real truth beyond their material world, they need to dig deep inside themselves first and try to correct their own "demons".

I see Cristians, Jews and Muslims every single day, on sundays or saturday they go and pray, thinking that this little prayer of theirs will save them and help them in some sort of way. But the true prayer lies within your soul, when a person comes to a state where he cannot take himself any more (usually depression and prozac works wonders thats what they say...) He needs to turn to god, and not some sort of prayers and little scripts from the bible or torah.

I was an aethiest since I was born, been throug alot of shit in my life, and thats where I actually turned to reading Hinduism, Buddahism and eventually the origin of all religions....Kabbalah.
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Old 07-20-2003, 10:24 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by bondagegirl
OK, so I believe there is a line between telling friends (or whoever wants to listen) about your faith or beliefs and preaching about your faith, or trying to disprove or degrade this persons beliefs (to someone that did not ask for this). Not so much an intelligent argument, but a flat out "you are wrong" kind of attitude. That is my problem, I've met too many people like this, that just have to completely try to make me feel wrong (or guilty)about what I believe or do in my life.
Truth to tell, athiests and non-Christians do this every bit as much as Christians do.
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Old 07-20-2003, 05:16 PM   #16 (permalink)
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OK well I'm not religious, and I have never gone up to them and said hey do you believe in god? and try to convince them otherwise. I never try to convince anyone that my way is better in any way, shape, or form. So I have to completely disagree with that statement. and you know, I rarely see people that are agnostic/atheist try to convince people they're way is better... usually they could care less what another person is doing, but I can't speak for all of them so...

and another thing, being agnostic myself, I don't look down on people that are religious, If it makes them happy, or helps with their life, then fine it's just not my thing. Just don't shove it in my face and I will have no problem with it!
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Old 07-20-2003, 05:40 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Neo26
Truth to tell, athiests and non-Christians do this every bit as much as Christians do.
lol, I can see it now...


*knock, knock*

Good evening, madam. We're from the Refound Athiests of Alabama. Have you found Christ? Do you know that you're wrong?
Ma'am, I'm calling on you today to renounce your faith, lest you waste what precious life you have tithing and proselytization.

I see you're eating dinner, but if we could just have a few moments of your time to share with you the joys of having no god in your life...


Seriously, though, the range and scope of Christians preaching outstrips any other major religion, including atheists.
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Old 07-20-2003, 06:21 PM   #18 (permalink)
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haha I loved that!!!
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Old 07-20-2003, 06:40 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by pr0f3n
lol, I can see it now...


*knock, knock*

Good evening, madam. We're from the Refound Athiests of Alabama. Have you found Christ? Do you know that you're wrong?
Ma'am, I'm calling on you today to renounce your faith, lest you waste what precious life you have tithing and proselytization.

I see you're eating dinner, but if we could just have a few moments of your time to share with you the joys of having no god in your life...


Seriously, though, the range and scope of Christians preaching outstrips any other major religion, including atheists.
hmmmm....not a bad idea that...not a bad idea at all.

Plus as a (sort of) religious organisation, I get tax exemption. right? I've always wanted tax exemption...
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Old 07-20-2003, 07:57 PM   #20 (permalink)
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in many religions it does say "make believers out of non-believers"

in Judaism and other religions we don't convert others. if some one wants to convert they have to study and learn the religion and prove that they want to. unlike some other religions where, once u ask , you are converted but my 2cents
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Old 07-20-2003, 08:10 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by CSflim
Plus as a (sort of) religious organisation, I get tax exemption. right? I've always wanted tax exemption...
Do you think we could get federal funds for charity work too?
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Old 07-21-2003, 09:26 AM   #22 (permalink)
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If you don't want to listen, then don't. shut the door on them, say you don't want to talk. I mean if it bothers you that much you could walk away. just like people do when confronted my salesmen, drunks, gays, or anybody they don't like or are uncomfortable with. Till we become socialist's we will be able to do what we want.
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Old 07-21-2003, 02:27 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Neo26
Truth to tell, athiests and non-Christians do this every bit as much as Christians do.
There is a big difference between how an atheist will argue,a dna christian will. An atheist is only going to argue to point for purposes of a debate.
A "militant atheist" does not really care what you believe or don't believe. If you don't want to talk about religion, then he's not going to "force" you to convert. If he still won't let up, just say "OK, you win. believing in God is silly and ilogical, but I'm still going to do it anyway" and he will walk away. He just wants to know that he has "won" the debate. These sort of people will actually demand to be correct about everything, not just religion. It is not a quality of atheists that causes this before, just the competitive personality of the individual.
On the other hand, Christains trying to "save" you IS a quality of religion. And they will force a debate, whether you are interested or not.
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Old 07-21-2003, 04:18 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Ahhh, the smell of hipocracy.

They do it for the same reason Atheists do it. To make you agree with them. Both sides do it just the same.
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Old 07-21-2003, 06:06 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I've had militant Christians freak on me when i was an athiest. I've had militant atheists freak on me now that i'm Christian. The problem is people who think that you not agreeing with them is a personal insult, or who personally insult you not agreeing with them.

As long as they think it affirms or denies their worth to have someone agree or disagree with them...there will be ugly fights.
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Old 07-23-2003, 09:06 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Ethnocentrism and plain and simple. I think it's interesting how only monotheistic religions especially Christianity fight over who's god is the only god and feel the need to convert people.
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Old 07-23-2003, 01:00 PM   #27 (permalink)
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I didn't read all of the posts so if the topic has changed or this has already been said I apologize. As a church-goer I take offense to the generalization "why do so many christians catholics etc feel its necessary to make u "See the truth" for lack of a better word/phrase." I know that I, being only one christian, don't try to make anyone see the light for one reason; I don't give a shit what you think/don't think. I don't view it as my problem if someone chooses not to believe in something that may or may not affect him/her afterdeath. To each his own.
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Old 07-27-2003, 12:28 PM   #28 (permalink)
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christians are hypocrits in my mind
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Old 07-27-2003, 01:04 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Quints
I didn't read all of the posts so if the topic has changed or this has already been said I apologize. As a church-goer I take offense to the generalization "why do so many christians catholics etc feel its necessary to make u "See the truth" for lack of a better word/phrase."
ummm.. that isn't a generalization... if he had said "why do all christians feel it's necessary" or "why do christians feel it's necessary," that would be different, but you are just making an ass of yourself
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Old 07-27-2003, 09:17 PM   #30 (permalink)
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As for closing the door, that doesn't work. I have a friend, he is Catholic, but these Christian preachers keep going to his door and giivng him pamphlets and everything. Once he said "I have a religion and I'm happy" and tried to close the door. The person then stopped him and said "You can't speak for your parents". They visited him several times. That exists. No atheists will keep going to your door and asking you to stop believing in God. Christians go above and beyond in the area of converting. Once I asked a Mormon friend a question about heaven and he tried to get me to read the Book of Mormon and tried to give me one. I said I wasn't interested. He didn't press the issue. I have a Christian friend who refuses to listen to anything about Astrology of take Biology classes because he is so serious about his religion. He just doesn't believe in evolution, or even BLACK HOLES! It boggles the mind. He tried to convince me that humans are meant to be vegetarian. My Mormon friend doesn't believe that our thoughts are just electrical signals in the mind, probably because he believes the soul is what makes us human. That means we can prove that souls do not exist and it should disprove the big religions. Here's the plan. Develop a sort of transporting technology like in Star Trek. Make a copy of someone without disassembling the original. If people really have souls, the copy cannot possibly be human and have emotions and imagination. If the person is really identical, then there is no soul because a soul is unique to each person and we can't possible create souls with technology, right? Finding a way to scan where every last subatomic particle that makes up a person is at any instant, storing that data, and making a copy using that data is going to be the tricky part though.
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Old 07-28-2003, 11:06 AM   #31 (permalink)
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My Mormon friend doesn't believe that our thoughts are just electrical signals in the mind
You don't have to be Mormon, or even Christian to believe this. Can you answer this question for me -- How can an electrical signal be true? And rejecting your position here hardly entails dualism, and rejecting dualism (or even being a materialist about persons) hardly contradicts Christianity.
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Old 07-28-2003, 01:43 PM   #32 (permalink)
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The bible is hypocritical in some areas (ok, many areas). It one part it talks of saving the world for Jesus (tell it to others), but in the book of Matthew its talks of worship being private and not to "parade" for the sake of parading. Faith is just that, either you have it and believe or you dont. IMO, the people who showboat and pressure others are more often than not the ones who need are the biggest hypocrites. I once heard that the biggest downfall of the christian religion are the "christians"...and I agree.
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Old 07-29-2003, 08:58 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by tmricha
The bible is hypocritical in some areas (ok, many areas). It one part it talks of saving the world for Jesus (tell it to others), but in the book of Matthew its talks of worship being private and not to "parade" for the sake of parading. Faith is just that, either you have it and believe or you dont.
I've heard this complaint (the Bible/Christians are hypocritical), and I don't buy it. What's hypocritical about saying 'don't be ostentatious in your religious practice' and 'try to convince people of the good news'?
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"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

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Old 07-29-2003, 09:28 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Well, I can already tell you why some Christians go on an offensive when they are strongly confronted by a strong willed person who is not of the Christian faith. I am speaking from experience, because I have done the same thing, regretfully because I always end up sticking my foot in my mouth and only worsening the situation. We panic, and use things that we shouldn't while desperately trying to search for information that maybe, just maybe convince that one "infidel" of something that they believe. When we should all just come to this one basic statement, "Hey, I have faith in God and that He did send His Son to die for our sins, if you're willing to listen, I'm willing to tell, if not, I won't cram it down your throat, and we can just differ on our views, and maybe have a healthy civilized debate where we can learn from each other." In a perfect world this would be every Christian's credo, but human's aren't perfect and we make mistakes and end up hurting relationships or our credibility by saying something stupid. This has been something that I try to stick to, but like I said, I do stick my foot in my mouth. Well that's my two cents worth on that.
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Old 07-29-2003, 10:19 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by asaris
You don't have to be Mormon, or even Christian to believe this. Can you answer this question for me -- How can an electrical signal be true? And rejecting your position here hardly entails dualism, and rejecting dualism (or even being a materialist about persons) hardly contradicts Christianity.
Chemicals that effect those signals alter our personality. Those signals represent brain activity. You can see that while monitoring people who are in a deep dream. Dreams are thoughts.
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Old 07-30-2003, 12:42 AM   #36 (permalink)
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The loudmouthed jerks do give our religion a bad name. When I was in college there was a guy wearing a sandwich board who'd sit around the courtyard of one of the busier causeways on campus and yell at people for a few hours every day. He'd call girls harlots and whores just because they'd be wearing shorts on a hot day. It was ludicrous.

What bothers me, is that if someone like myself pipes up about our religious beliefs (Christianity) then it's forcing our beliefs on people and woe be it to he who dares to come down on the poor widdle athiests with such a heavy hand.

Yet, it's perfectly ok to lounge around and talk about how Christianity is a "false religion" and how religion is for dumb people - the "opiate of the masses." This really gets me steamed, 100% of the time.

Atheism is just as much a matter of faith as religion is, though. Athiests have just as much proof to their claims as religious believers have to theirs. The way I look at it though, is that believers put their faith in something, while athiests put their faith in nothing.

I know logic students will go on and say that if belief='yes' then faith=1; and if belief='no' then faith=0, therefore athiesm is not an act of faith, but that's really reaching. The viewpoint of athiesm is based merely on a lack of empirical evidence. "Prove the existence of God to me and I'll believe," many say. Yet, the very foundation of science is designed with the ability to be disproven.

Scientific fact is merely a hypothesis with supporting evidence. The more evidence, the more solid this hypothesis is. But if one piece of contradictory evidence surfaces, then bang. It's no longer a 'fact.'

So, just like a believer has faith that there's a higher power out there, an athiest has to have the same kind of faith that there isn't.

What's the point of all this? Well, I can't help but wonder. When faced with all the complexities and intricacies of our world and the universe, and the way everything interacts so very specifically, can you really believe that everything works and is the way it is, merely on some giant coincidence? I can't.

That's why I put my faith in something.
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Old 07-30-2003, 05:26 AM   #37 (permalink)
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what about agnostics who believe that atheism and religion are BOTH for dumb people?
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Old 07-30-2003, 09:43 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by hobo
Chemicals that effect those signals alter our personality. Those signals represent brain activity. You can see that while monitoring people who are in a deep dream. Dreams are thoughts.
All that proves is a causal relationship between the electrical signals and our thoughts, not that our thoughts are electrical signals. And you still haven't answered my question.
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Old 07-30-2003, 12:51 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by asaris
You don't have to be Mormon, or even Christian to believe this. Can you answer this question for me -- How can an electrical signal be true? And rejecting your position here hardly entails dualism, and rejecting dualism (or even being a materialist about persons) hardly contradicts Christianity.
In what way do you mean "How can an electrical signal be true?" That question doesn't even make sense. Nobody claimed that electrical signal were true. Rather that thoughts were a phenomona occuring due to electrical and chemical (and other?) physical activity.

Rejecting dualism rejects free will. Without free will we cannot be moral. Without morality, there is no christian ethic.
Rejecting dualism rejects a soul, which rejects an afterlife.

No morality, no afterlife. Whats left of Christianity?
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Old 07-30-2003, 12:58 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Here's something I posted in a different thread

Quote:
What good is a metaphysical mind if it is powerless over the actions of the physical brain? Again, the metaphysical mind is another made up idea used to explain that which we didn't understand. Now, although we don't know in any kind of detail how the mind/brain works, we have certainly made a lot of progress.
People who get a severe knock on the head can turn into completely different people. Their friends and family can no longer recognise the personality of this "new" person..."what happened our old Jimmy?".
In this type of situation what do you believe happened? That the knock on the head actually influenced the metaphysical mind?...not much of a metaphysical mind if you ask me!
The "original" personality is the metaphysical mind, which is has had its "communication link" damaged, and so cannot completely control the brain? What is controlling the rest of the brain? Is it working on its own? In that case what is the need for a metaphysical mind at all, if the brain is perfectly capable of operation in "automatic"? After all it is working perfectly well...just different than before.

What mechanism are you proposing for how this metaphysical soul operates? How can it interact with the physical world of the brain? The brain works on electrical impulses and chemical signals, all of which follow known physical laws. Are you suggesting that the brain defies such laws? That like charges attract? A believe you will find few who agree with you on that one!
The only possible apparent mechanism for a metaphysical mind appears to me to be one the opperates ona quantum level. But such a suggestion, to me feels very cheeky! But I'll continue with it for now.
Quantum level actions are random. They have come up positive in every test for randomness that we have at our disposal. On the large scale we can make very accurate predicitions of the outcome of such randomness, but a single event behaves in acompletely random manner. (In a similar way that we cannot predict the outsome of a single spin of a roulette wheel, but we can make a prediction on the large scale: ultimately the house will win!) So this leaves, ultiamtely no room for the intervention of a metaphysical mind, unless, once again you are to accept the it can defy the laws of physics as above.
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