jewels

Although faith generally refers to a theological belief system, I wonder if it is something else. Yes, I get that religion relies on faith to shepherd believers. But people are always telling others to "have a little faith" when it comes to waiting for actions of others, and not every one of these users of the word affiliate with any particular god or religion.

If, by that meager analysis, one can assume that faith is merely trust, must you have that if you don't have a god? Is there something that controls your fate that you should blindly believe? Does everyone have to have something to believe in to survive? If you have belief in yourself, can you consider that as having faith? If you trust no one, do you not have faith? Isn't faith a belief in something/someone with no proof? Is faith immoral?

For me, Faith is one of those words I have difficulty separating from reliogiosity (not a word, right?) even when it comes to humanity itself. There are people that I feel have earned my trust, but there is not one person who has my blind faith (redundant phrase, ya?) . It's all been earned but is easily lost.

So when I'm hoping for a particular outcome to a life situation and someone tells me to "have faith", I can only base the actual outcome on my efforts, the situation and any parties or objects related to that outcome. In that case, I would have faith in myself.

But if it's a situation over which I had no control but had hopes for an outcome for a particular person, it would seem that would mean I'd have to trust that specific person to have earned that outcome. Or maybe fate = luck?

Your thoughts and opinions?

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Charlatan

I don't believe in the supernatural. Things like fate and luck have no place in my world view.

I too agree that to have faith in someone is just a matter of giving that person your trust. You believe that they will do something either based on previous actions or because you trust them to do it. As such, I cannot have faith for something in which I don't believe exists.

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Ourcrazymodern?

I don't think faith is necessarily associated with religion. I have faith that the sun will come up in the morning because I believe what I think I know & hope to be true about our physical surroundings. My faith in others is circumstantial & transitory. I think faith healing has something to be said for it, although faith applied to gods & such I do not claim.

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Charlatan

There is nothing faith-like about knowing the Sun will rise and set. There demonstrable proof that it has been happening daily for a very long time. There is no need of faith.

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filtherton

I don't know that I'd call myself faithful. I'd think it'd be more accurate to say that I'm relatively comfortable with the notion that I could easily be wrong about everything and choose to take the most straightforward course of action by acting as if it isn't actually important whether I'm wrong about everything.

With respect to luck, if you accept the idea that luck is just a catch-all term used to denote the results of any poorly understood (or analytically untenable) deterministic process, everything is determined at least partly by luck.

Ourcrazymodern?

Charlatan, it's likely that I use the word too loosely for you to have faith in my use of it. I take it on faith that it's a loose enough word to accommodate much. All I meant to say was that faith can apply to things not supernatural without losing meaning. I daresay it gains a little.

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Cynthetiq

doesn't everyone have faith even Atheists? I was thinking this very same question the other day walking down the streets of Chinatown.

Don't they have faith that the cars will stop at red lights and stop signs? That trains will stop at the platform and not just skip a stop? That when you press the elevator button it will actually stop on the floor number you pressed?

I think that there is lots of faith every day by everyone.

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Baraka_Guru

Cyn, there are two main distinctions in our use of the word faith. The one you are using refers to trustworthiness. The other meaning, with regard to religion and spirituality, refers to belief...usually a belief in something supernatural or what cannot otherwise be proven to exist.

Most of us have much faith in the first meaning of the word: societal rules and expectations, in addition to the expectation the sun will rise tomorrow as well, I guess.

But I think the question here is whether we have faith in phenomenon we cannot prove or explain. This goes beyond deism too, I think. I don't believe in deities, but I have faith in humanity and how we navigate the universe. I believe that a future is possible. That is faith in my eyes.

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Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
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Hektore

Faith can be understood multiple ways. In the broadest sense faith is simply holding a belief.

The word faith (Faith) is also used commonly in a religions context to mean specifically belief without consideration of evidence.

By one meaning, everyone has faith; by the latter, many do not. This is a line that must be tread carefully, lest one falsely equate the two (which is what many religious folks are doing deliberately when they point out that 'atheists have faith').

Cynthetiq walked the line well, yes atheists have faith that cars will stop at stop lights. They do not have Faith that the cars will stop at stop lights (well, some might since atheists are just as capable of having Faith). I've been to a few places in Mexico where it seems like the stop lights are regarded as little more than polite suggestions, people with Faith that cars will always stop at the lights wouldn't last very long in that environment.

I think when a person tells you to 'have faith' usually they mean 'have Faith'. To me, having 'Faith' that a situation will work out the way I want it to is very unhelpful. It means the desired outcome is unavoidable, which while possibly emotionally satisfying, is not a very good way to get what you want. Success is almost never unavoidable.

//edit: Despite the 20+ minutes between them, cross-post (yes I take a long time to compose my responses).

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Baraka_Guru

I just came across a relevant article regarding a crossover between both meanings of the word faith, and I immediately thought of this thread.

Metro - Romanian witches to face jail time for failed spells

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

bagatelle

Faith - trust - belief.

In my opinion 'belief' contains a bit stubborn outlook of matters, even disregarding the opposite ideas without examining them.

Faith has religious ring to it, not necessarily though, and I would compare it to optimism, wishful thinking that something good will come eventually.

When you trust a person, you likely have knowledge and experience of him conducting reliably. Unless you're a fool and trust everyone. Faith is a little less solid trust in someone, you like and whom you don't want to disappoint you.

"Having faith" - it's realizing you're not in the best situation right now, but things will change for the better. Those who have religious outlook, will include God having something to do with it. "Losing one's faith" - the sum of your hardship might be more than you can take at the moment to be willing to look to the future. "Having no faith" is pessimism.

In general, I believe we all aim to go towards a better future, so this gives faith validity. If it wasn't so, would we still be here?

I have problems to connect faith with witchcraft.

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roachboy

i think the distinction between perceptual faith and belief in some god is pretty straightforward. i believe that in the next instant my computer will not fly into atoms. i don't **know** that it won't, but experience has shown that it's reasonable to expect that will be the case. that's a kind of perceptual faith.

the shift to beyond that would come with "i believe that in the next instant my computer will not fly into atoms because god wouldn't let that happen."

so excluding the second thing; perceptual faith transposes or is analogous (take yr pick) to lots of registers that involve pattern or expectation and projections into the future. at that level, it is a basic human function. from a cartesian viewpoint, a basic form of evasion, a way of not dealing with the kind of (hyperbolic) doubt that could pin you in place unable to be sure that the floor beneath you will persist moment to moment or finish this sentences because the computer could fly into ato

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spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

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jewels

I'm not sure. This hones in on what I was thinking. What is that faith? I think saying faith = belief (when not talking about religion) is way oversimplified and maybe not true. I don't think that we have faith that cars will stop and the sun will rise; I these are merely expectations based on experience, science, logic, whatever. It doesn't mean we have faith in the car or the driver, or the sun. Maybe a better definition for faith would be expectation? If so, maybe the wrong phrase was coined or did it just evolve out of those with religious faith?

Or could the difference between faith relating to God and "having faith" in others be that with God, there are no expectations allowed, but as mortals we may have expectations of others and mother nature in a more logical, mathematical sense?

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Zeraph

I have faith, though its shaky right now.

bum4evr

Is faith just a word that justifies you're belief in something? I am sure the terrorists that flew a plane or 2 into the world trade center had faith in their beliefs.

What if you have faith in something and it turns out not to be true? Is it still faith? Or just gullibility.

Ourcrazymodern?

If your faith fails in the face of new information it was misplaced. I venture that a more flexible faith is less assailable. I'd even go so far as to assert that surety is brittle.

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Derwood

I don't have faith in the religious sense, but my wife does.

Sometimes I'm jealous of this fact.

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ARTelevision

I have no faith, no beliefs. This is a choice.

It appears that belief systems are what is wrong with human beings.

Without faith, one simply employs working hypotheses. It's not rocket science.

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kowalskil

Faith is one of many words that mean different things to different people. Another example is the word "socialism." Such words often lead to confusion.

Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia and Google)
Professor Emeritus
Montclair State University
.
.

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The_Jazz

Other examples: buffalo, teabag, cart, democracy

Doc, if you're going to answer, then answer. Otherwise you just look like you're here to shill your work, which is unattractive.

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Ourcrazymodern?

I have faith that Tilted Philosophy isn't doomed.

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Freetofly

Faith went out the window with religion. It pretty much separated the family. Ahh the Irish are funny people when it comes to their faith and religion." North or South" The family is from both.

Always keep the faith in the good beer!

DaveOrion

I have faith in OCM, thats about it.

TFP killed God so therefore my religious faith (actually I should say spiritual since I have no faith in religion) is dwindling if not gone completely.

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Syriana...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

Ourcrazymodern?

...got that.

Alright, somewhat more,
call it rape if you need to,
not mutilation:

"Funny place to put our faith,
in mystic musings of others past,
when right now you can google."

(Please read through
the haiku, if in the way,
where it's not useful)

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DaveOrion

Of course I didnt mean that TFP literally killed God but many things I've read have put my (perceived) faith to the guestion.

I kinda hate that cause I found my spiritual faith rather comforting (if not delusional) at times.

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Syriana...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

Ourcrazymodern?

The comfort we each take from our ideas about the nature of reality is delusional. I'd rather think that than to think I know such basic truths as the meaning of life.

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jewels

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We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

Willravel

I try my best not to.

Zeraph

I also work toward no beliefs or labels. I work off hypotheses too. But the faith I mean, is the faith in being Okay for the stuff I can't make hypotheses for (well ethically testable). I have faith in the unknown. The faith in no belief or labels.

DaveOrion

I suppose you're correct, your entire reality is based on what your senses tell you. Those who are taught to accept logic & reasoning as their sole course towards reality must conclude thats all that exists. Since no evidence exists to state otherwise this must be so, or its simply a matter that we are unable to grasp certain concepts because we dont have the capacity to analyze or measure such things as faith (religious, spiritual or otherwise.)

While it is true that certain meditative and religious states can be seen & measured on an EEG, the essence of what these states are based on remains elusive.

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Bonkai

No faith here, at least not in a personal god. The universe is too vast to believe that the creator of it all, is personally looking after you and the other 6 billion plus souls roaming the Earth. Though I have nothing against people who hold such believes. With that said I do think karma is something to hold faith in, it's simple and makes sense.

LordEden

I thought I had faith when I was younger and heavy into church. Looking back on it now, I was really just going through the motions and using church as a social outlet.

Now, the only things I have faith in is karma. I don't know HOW it works, but I believe in it. Belief in something that you can't prove is faith.

So... I guess I have SOME faith.

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DaveOrion

Actually faith & karma or very dissimilar, in the original Indian concept of Buddhism, God or gods have no role in karma, they believe that all roles past, present & future are being actively shaped by karma during many different existences.

In the traditional Abrahamic religions, the will of God takes the role in all human actions, thereby faith is all too important,(lets hope God knows what the fuck he's doing), although in Hinduism humans do have free will to choose good or evil and suffer judgment which requires God to implement Karma's consequences.

Religion is too fucking complicated.

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Zeraph

Meh not really. Karma is a poetic way to say cause and effect past your natural life. Faith is a way to say you have confidence in something that can't be proven (by you I should mention. As most people have faith in science since very few test it).

levite

I think I have faith at least some of the time, in some things. I'm not really talking about religion now-- I think we all know where I stand with that.

But I have faith, at least sometimes, in the power of kindness: that any small act of kindness can result in far-reaching ramifications and repercussions that we may never know, or to a degree we might never believe.

I have faith, at least sometimes, in the capacity of people to fulfill their promise in ways none of us might ever expect.

But I also have faith in the almost infallible ability of the human race to shoot itself in the foot. I truly believe that the progress of humanity is all too often like that of a glacier: one step forward, two or three steps backward. Still, I also have faith that humanity does inevitably progress. Which I suppose is something.

I have faith, at least sometimes, in the ability of knowledge to empower a person, almost disproportionate to anything else.

I have faith, almost always, that power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I guess these are some things I have faith in. I dunno. Does that count?

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WhoaitsZ

faith doesn't really make sense to me unless you just generally mean hope.

i just do not get it and never have. i always thought myself weird because i never grasped it.
-shrug-

noodle

The only thing I really have faith in is me... myself.
No external objects or forces. I'd like to believe in karma, but it's just not consistent enough for me. I'm the only thing that I absolutely have to trust and believe in, in order to make it through the day. I have a wee bit of faith in a few other people, but only on very specific things.
But other than that, no.

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genuinegirly

What a great topic for discussion. Thank you, Jewels for thinking of asking.
I have faith in myself, humanity, Nature, and even a little in God.

It's funny, I've never thought of connecting luck with faith, but the way you phrased it makes me consider it as reality. Luck has never really been something that I've counted on, yet as I look back I realize that I have been very lucky in life. Definitely not something to discount.

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urville

I tend to have faith that things are exactly as they should be at any given moment, because they are that way. This does not automatically or otherwise mesh with my hopes and I dont expect it to.

What I mean is that, and to use that aforementioned word, I trust that how it is or happened is "right" or what should happen. It may sound crazy, but I also believe nothing is set in stone. So no matter what an outcome is and it could go any way, what happens is simply right, and I trust in that... even if it means its bad... like losing my job which has happened, a friend dying, being broke, losing something I need, etc. All have happened...

I dont believe in fate though. I believe that i have choice. Beyond the chaos of existing, everything that has happened to me has been of my own choice and doing and even though the chaos is outside of my control, i control my responses to it and how I deal with it.

Ourcrazymodern?

Fancy, that; an unassailable Faith! I have faith that it benefits you and everyone around you. Spot on!

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