almostaugust

I read a statistic that 75% (which sounds pretty dubious to me) of US citizens believe in an actual devil. I was just wondering, for those who do believe in him/it, what your thoughts on him are?

Mojo_PeiPei

I don't "believe" in him, I believe that he exists. That being said... Its all about balance, if God is all about love and the lot, then this dude is hate and evil. Now I'm not a straight up bible thumper type, but this dude is bad news. He wishes to take people from god so that they will be forsaken like him. He does this through temptation lust, knowledge , and power.

BTW what makes you say that 75% of Americans believing in the devil is dubious. After all don't some 90% of Americans believe in a higher power?

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Johnny Rotten

I'm of the personal opinion that the Devil is a projection of our worst temptations and ideas. For me, the two opposites of existence are creation and oblivion, not good and evil.

__________________
"The idea that money doesn't buy you happiness is a lie put about by the rich, to stop the poor from killing them." -- Michael Caine

asaris

I suppose I believe in a devil, but it's not terribly important to me. I mean, I believe that the human race fell away from God, why not some angels? And if there are fallen angels, why wouldn't they have a leader? But I wouldn't really be shaken up if somebody proved to me there wasn't a devil.

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

chavos

i don't know if i believe the devil exists as a persona. i know sin exists. at that point...i don't think it matters.

bonehed1

Satan is a bastard...always has been and always will be!

__________________
Stuff is Good

:::OshnSoul:::

Religion was created by man for a means of "meaning", "purpose" and to develop standards and boudaries to which people would feel more in place, "good", and stable.

Therefore, they developed a scenario of Good vs. Evil- and that there was this Evil Being-opposite of "God" to battle him and try to take people's sanity and souls.
Which contradicts in the bible quite a few times, although I do enjoy the bible.....
God created the heavens and the earth. He created EVERY ONE OF US equally- in "His own image and likeness". Therefore, how could we have been "born with sin?" If we are made into the image & likeness of God, then God would have to be of sin, as well- which the bible states that God is all-loving, all-powerful, and everywhere at all times.
Also, God gave us the gift of Free Will. FREE WILL- meaning, to do as we choose without judgement, exception, rules, or punishment.
So- how can we be given free will, be born into sin, and judged by an all-loving, all-powerful God who could send us to a "hell"?
The Devil is a character developed my man of the ancient church to describe "bad" things that we do and "bad" things that happen to us and others.

tiberry

Well put :::OshnSoul:::!

You see how everything begins with a reference? In order to even begin to conceive of an omnicient, omnipotent, omnipresent, and all loving god - man had to conceive of an exact opposite.

In order to have success (heaven), one must have the possibility of failure (hell). The illusion of failure.

__________________
My life's work is to bridge the gap between that which is perceived by the mind and that which is quantifiable by words and numbers.

TheKak

I think Satan just has a bad rap! Next time you talk to him, ask him his side of the story!

__________________
Roses are red, violets are blue, I'm a schizophrenic and so am I.

tecoyah

There is no "good" or "evil" only experience and growth. Pain and suffering are needed in order for humans to become more enlightened. This is not to say it is"ok" to inflict harm upon another and expect no natural recourse.
Life is not meant to be an uneventful cakewalk, if it were we would be a stagnent species entering into extinction. We require hardship to learn and grow.
In this context, is anything truly "evil" or negative if you can learn and become more from it?
If some young soul kills your sister and thru the experience(however difficult) you gain enlightenment into death and sorrow, is it all bad?
souls age is relative to experience.

The mantra below says it all.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

chavos

tecoyah...distrurbing to say the least. if suffering makes us smarter, then as a species we ought to be pretty damn brilliant by now. such theology i would see as directly opposing the rights and interests of marginalized peoples by offering a justification for their continued oppression....

Mojo_PeiPei

Sounds like Tecoyah is talking some Buddhism. So on that note, how would you define Mara? Is she the demon that tempted and attacked The Sadartha.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

:::OshnSoul:::

Many humans just can't comprehend the Grand Wheel of our existance and why we are here.
It is not at all disturbing- only to the human mind- many of us choose to not see behind the pain, the guilt, the frustration of things that occur in our lives.
Ya, it is sad to see people kill, and it would be a difficult event to get past if it were to happen to a loved one- but then how could have "God" given us Free Will" and love unconditionally if we had limits, boundaries, and "commandements" we must abide by and we are judged?
but there is a reason and message behind EVERYTHING.
God- the Source of All Things- communicates through Experience.
How do we define who we are?
By experience.
And we learn more of ourselves through experience in which We Are Not (for instance, someone killing your loved one) than we do in experiences in which we are. Same goes for relationships. We learn more of Who We Are from interactions with people with quite the opposite opinions & ideas than we do with someone that we have a million things in common with.
It comes down to this: Choosing to see/listen to those messages or choosing to ignore them. It's our choice. It's how we evolve. That is why, as you say, we are not "damn brilliant"- because some of us choose to listen to the messages and know that there is a reason- and some ignore it and blame the outside world for what is happening to them. (Which that will never get us anywhere.)

bonehed1

I thought I met Satan at a holloween party last year. I thought Satan was a man though!!

__________________
Stuff is Good

tecoyah

Chavos- Oshnsoul pretty much summed up my reply for me , I must add however.
It is clear from your posts that you have great faith in "god" and that is admirable. Many people can grow thru this faith, and become more enlightened because of it. There are those however, that have taken a different path and have an understanding that runs in a direction other than this.
I will not claim one is better than the other, but I have personally gained far more relative insight into myself and my interpretation of reality since leaving christianity behind.
By accepting what you may call "evil" as simply another chance to grow, I have opened my soul to an alternate growth path and actually enjoy(on some level) the "bad" things that occur in my life.
This concept is not comfortable to most and that is fine,but it has literally changed my life, for the better.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

chavos

Is that what you would really say in the face of tragedy? I mean...pardon me, but that strikes me as sounding completely patronizing. Would you really say that a slave who did not own her own body simply had not come to understand the Wheel of her existance? That Jews should have appriciated what Auschwitz was teaching them?

You can say that i'm going for an emotional cheap shot....and in a way i am. But honestly...how do you confront massive amounts of disrespect for human dignity? How can you possibly maintain a respect for the value of human life if you see suffering as neutral in all situations? I don't mean to say anytime someone is sad, that its wrong and evil. but when people and societies begin to perpetrate crimes against people that deny them their status as a human being....thats when i would want nothing to do with a moral beleif that did not adequately condemn such atrocities.

Rodney

When fundamentalists/literalists mention the devil, I always say he's unnecessary, when human beings are capable on their own of such depraved acts of cruelty. That statement never gets much of an argument out of them.

tecoyah

Obviously, as with all things, we must take each situation in context. To compare the actions of Nazi Germany in WWII to the trials of everyday life is indeed a cheap shot, and irrelevant to the discussion. I dont think anyone would accept such destruction as normal or needed for growth. Many lessons were learned however, and therein lies the point.
I can and do understand the direction you wish this to go, so heres a bone for ya'.
Humans have done great "evil" to each other in the past and will continue to do so for some time.
The word "evil" and thus "Satan" can define the bad things we do, and that is all good and fine as names are secondary to the fact. It is also fine for you to feel negative deeds are useless and counterproductive, more power to you. It may be of some benefit for others though, so let it.
Just because you do not accept a concept, does not make it less valid. In fact, given your theology background it may give it more credence to many.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

chavos

nice duck. i'll leave it at this. i beleive you have made a serious underestimation of the amount and gravity of evil in this world. you're not alone in that...privildge does this to people....but that doesn't really make it any better, i guess.

Many lessons were learned? I'd damn well hope so. But that doesn't even start to pay the tab for the value of human life that was wasted to do so. I preach that even such waste can be healed and redeemed by the love of God, but its not because we learned something that its "Ok."

What it comes down to...the trials of everyday life for a westerner do not usually include massive amounts of violence against the dignity of the human person. but for someone in the third world who dies while drug companies profiteer off AIDS, for someone who dies of starvation while the leaders and powers of the world stand by, for someone who dies in any number of oppresive regimes across the world...its not such a far cry to make comparisons to other genocides. As a liberation Christian, i'm called to see that suffering as immediate, and as pressing as my own. I'm not talking about everyday life for you or me. I'm talking about everday life for the people that are marginalized, broken and used because they didn't win the sperm lottery and found themselves in a position of social disadvantage.

Same goes for you, no?

i'm not pointing fingers at the kid who smokes a bowl, or fucks around and crying "Evil" cause i'm a big bad intolerant Christian. Far from it. I'm crying through my tears for this world that our abuse of our fellow humans is a waste with out meaning, a sorrow that we don't even understand.

tecoyah

Ever heard of Tibet? Talk to a monk, you may see the point, but thanks for the insight, we will have to agree to disagree in this regard. May your god bless you.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

chavos

for whatever it's worth...i've seen a very similar critique made of the dalai lama's teaching. i admire much in bhuddism, but this would be my major disagreement with it.

tecoyah

Chavos, I just deleted an extensive reply when I recognized where it would lead. Instead, I leave you with this.

We all see what intellect permits.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Johnny Rotten

Now that's not very charitable. We all have things we choose to see or not see, but to label a blinder as an impossible obstacle is a bit heavy-handed. Especially when the existence or nature of the blinder is a matter of interpretation and individual perception. Christianity isn't any more "wrong" or "right" than any other major system of belief, believe it or not. Since not everyone thinks the same way--due to the way regional language patterns structure thinking, in addition to cultural mores--everyone will find a slightly different path to spiritual fulfillment, assuming they're even looking for that in the first place. Everyone will have slightly different spiritual needs, different degrees of this or that element, etc.

It may not be your choice, but it is not your choice, either.

tecoyah

My apologies, get a little frustrated when someone debases a living spiritual leader out of relative ignorance. I thought I did pretty good though, you should have seen what I deleted.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

chavos

No. Simply, you're not even right-you have chosen to percieve a disagreement as an insult, a view that is not based in fact. i honor the man deeply, and i find his faith journey extraordinary. that does not mean i am in total agreement. i did not, did not intend to, and had no inclination to debase the dalai lama. I simply find his/tibetean bhuddism's teachings on evil to be personally incompatible with my world view.

PS: Relative ignorance, my ass. If i had a penny for every misconception i heard about Christianity...