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Old 05-03-2003, 02:54 PM   #1 (permalink)
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This was the old evolution thread, go to the new thread to post

The one thought that nobody has ever been able to figure out, is how humans, the earth and the universe were created. Everyone has their own opinion. I want to leave this thread open for everyone to explain their personal theories with information to back them up..

I dont want to offend anyones religion so if you get offended easily, stop reading now...

The first question we must look at is if there is a god or not. Was the human race created by a higher power? How do we all have the perfect bodies that allow us to see, smell, reproduce, breathe and eat. Simpily evolution couldnt give us all of these features.. So what did?

Another thought I would like to bring up is about time. The universe had to start somewhere, but how did it start? There are many theories about this subject, some too far complex for people un understand..

Post your opinions.. Hopefully some of you are smart and can explain some of these mysteries to me..
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Old 05-03-2003, 03:09 PM   #2 (permalink)
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evolution is a theory that has many good ideas but it has far to many flaws so it should not be stated as truth. Now as a fellow philosopher I've studied this concept very carefully and even Aristotle with all his studies stated that there has to be something out there, something powerfull, all knowing, that created us all. Now, I've thought about this subject alot, and have seen that to beleive that this ultimate being actually walked this earth os prety much garbage, for a being so perfect would never join such a inferior race. Now you asked the same question 4 times, you just re-worded it, so here is the answer to your question, the idea of a deity existing is a very good one for the beggining of everything cannot be explaned without there being such a being. Now, you can ask the question, How can one beleive in something that is not there...well, my friend, thats what faith is, faith=to believe in something that cannot be explained. But in my personal view of the universe, yes, there definitly is a God, its the only thing that explains everything. if anyone has any other questions just email me Mario@sodanca.com
there you go
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Old 05-03-2003, 03:13 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Evolution obviously. It's science. What's religion got to do with it?

Universe was evolving a lot more ago before humans and their shitty religions came.
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Old 05-03-2003, 03:31 PM   #4 (permalink)
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i think evolution can definatly explain how we evolved so perfectly, especially when you can see through the fossil records the failed modifictions that didn't make it.

i personally do not believe in god. i believe that there may be something, a higher power if you want, but we have no way of knowing, no way of sensing or detecting him/her/it. if there is one, i highly doubt it gives a half shit about what we do, and if it does, i think as long as you try to lead the best life you can, that's what counts.

i think evolution is a good, and solid theory about how we became what we are, and while the big bang isn't the best theory yet on the origin of the universe, i think it is plausible and needs more testing and maybe some modification, i don't know.

that's my 2 cents, take it for what it's worth, even if that's just a penny.
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Old 05-03-2003, 03:35 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Evolution is the best theory we have to describe the mechanics of how we came to exist. Any other theory is not really a "theory" in the classical sense in that they do not shape the theory to fit the facts, rather they shape the facts to fit the theory.

Now if you want to know why I believe we're here, that is another thread which has nothing to do with science.
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Old 05-03-2003, 03:40 PM   #6 (permalink)
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both evolution and creationism have failed to address the question "Where did it all start?". I personally believe in a mix of both theories.
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Old 05-03-2003, 03:54 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by cj2112
both evolution and creationism have failed to address the question "Where did it all start?". I personally believe in a mix of both theories.
Exactly, why can't you have it both ways?

Why can't you believe in "Gods" AND believe in the power of evolution.

People limit themselves to a few scant choices, then fit the evidence to agree with their personal beliefs. We mold the data to fit our sphere of space and what we can't explain or choose not to explain we give credit to an outside intervening all powerful force.

Evolution and Creationism are only two sides of the same object. I think that if we look hard enough and with a little objectivity we will find that the object has many much more interesting sides as well.
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Old 05-03-2003, 04:02 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Given a choice, I'd much rather believe in Creationism, but I haven't read much into either of them.
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Old 05-03-2003, 04:19 PM   #9 (permalink)
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The Theory of Evolution is just that. It is scientific conjecture based on the best empirical evidence available. The remaining creationist thoughts are based on faith, which requires no evidence. In this light one cannot be used to debunk the other, though some of our greatest scientific and philosphical advances were made trying by believers trying to prove (or disprove) the existence of God.

I personally would be much more impressed with a God that could create a single molecule with the potential to evolve than to imagine "Him" walking around with a magic wand.
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Old 05-03-2003, 04:23 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I am agnostic to evolution. I believe it could possibly be true but at this time there is just not enough solid evidence. There is some evidence but there is alot of flaws as well. I believe in a supreme being of some sort but not the christian god. If anything I would say Judiasim is the most in the area. As with evolution though there is alot of holes in religion as well.
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Old 05-03-2003, 04:26 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Phaenx
Given a choice, I'd much rather believe in Creationism

I though you people were extinct a century ago. (no offence intended, just wondering)
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Old 05-03-2003, 04:33 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pacifier

I though you people were extinct a century ago. (no offence intended, just wondering)
Last I checked I'm not extinct, no need to worry your pretty little head.
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Old 05-03-2003, 04:41 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Evolution obviously. It's science. What's religion got to do with it?
The only problem that I have with this statement is that not all science is fact. There are a lot of times when it is just theory. I'm not taking the side of creationism on this one, but I do think that putting all of your faith into science without at least having some questions as to the credibility of the source is a little naive. There are a number of times when scientists will not agree with one another and will have differing theories on a subject.

*steps off of soap box*
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Old 05-03-2003, 04:48 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Evolution easily, Religion doesn't explain anything about the universe or it's creation.
It's hard to try to figure out it's creation though since we cannot see around the universe, and how it's difficult to explain something's creation when there couldn't have been anything before it.
Tim Leary really got me thinking when he said the universe is like the human brain with billions of small peices that were more powerful than anything we can imagine. This brings up an idea that the universe is our mind, when we peer out into space we're really looking into our own brains in a collective sense. Or we could all be a small fraction of another being's brain, perhaps the brain of "God".
We just don't know, and we'll probably never know. How can we figure out the universe around us when we can't even figure out ourselves and why we're here? Maybe the answers of both fall under the same reasoning.
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Old 05-03-2003, 04:58 PM   #15 (permalink)
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For me, probability is enough of a formative principle to get a universe started.

Total non-existence would be an unstable state. Probability would initiate an event - a ripple of space time. And from there, many universes would ensue.

The self-evidence of the universe answers the question of its existence and creation.

The problem isn't how things got here. The problem is the way we think about things, causality, time, space, etc.

We ask mostly irrelevant questions.
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Old 05-03-2003, 05:15 PM   #16 (permalink)
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First, we must understand the difference between evolution and Evolution. There is no doubt that evolution occurs because there are species that have changed or become extinct during human history. Much of this has been the direct result of human intervention (ie, animal breeding). The real question is, does the theory if Evolution explain the existance of life as we witness it. Keep in mind that Darwin was not the first to propose a theory of evolution. His great achievement was in understanding that evolution occured by natural selection acting on inherited (not acquired) characteristics. Gregor Mendel's work in genetics was not well known at the time. Lamark had thought that animals pass on characteristics they aquire after birth.

There is more than biological evolution. There are also cosmic, astrological, geological, and social evolution occuring at the same time. Each of these have different mechanisms and rules. Evolution is inevitable in a universe that includes time as a dimension, because change and time can not exist with out the other.

There is nothing about Darwin's theories that exclude a diety as the ultimate cause of life. He does not address the initial origin of life in the primordial soup. He certainly does not address the ultimate cause of creation of the universe. Here I am not speaking of his personal beliefs, but rather the the modern version of Darwin's theories.

I believe that God created the universe and gave it rules that ultimately led to where we are. That is a far more impressive version of creation than people could comprehend 5000 years ago when Genesis was first told over campfires.

I also believe that Darwin was a genius and his work is the central tenet of all of modern Biology. His ideas have been firmed up over the last century as we have come to understand molecular genetics. I am sure there are details in his writing that are not accurate, but that does not take away from his accomplishments.
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Old 05-03-2003, 05:20 PM   #17 (permalink)
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evolution. i dont know anyone (even people who go to church regularly) who deny the theory of evolution
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Old 05-03-2003, 05:31 PM   #18 (permalink)
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evolution... but i believe that someone/something had to start it all though... kinda dont always know what to think about the whole thing though
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Old 05-03-2003, 05:32 PM   #19 (permalink)
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religion was made possible by evolution.....
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Old 05-03-2003, 05:35 PM   #20 (permalink)
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just playing devils advocate emotion, i believe in evolution.

however...given evolution, how can you explain the actual life? what makes the chemical compounds in our bodies move and breathe and everything? rather then sit on the ground like dirt? same thing about plants really, but still, makes you see that maybe, just maybe sumthing is out there....

i dont know though, i tend not to believe in any religious ideas, because im opposed to organized religion, i have my own sketchy beliefs...
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Old 05-03-2003, 06:28 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Its funny that this topic has ended up as a thread. I was recently debating this very issue with a close friend of mine. He is a devout born again Christian and I received a classical education form the University of Toronto, majoring in evolutionary biology. So far, our heated disscussions have not ended our friendship, but we have agreed to disagree.

So what does this mean to the rest of you?

I too could not see how anyone with an education could believe that that the incredable diversity of life on this planet could have been created a few thousand years ago in six days. (Remember, even God needed to rest on the seventh!) My buddy is educated and has a thriving business providing IT services to his clients. He can weave a path through the complexities of a networking problem, but he could not see how we could have evolved from apes.

Of course my arrogance had led me on the crusade to bring my buddy out of the dark ages and into the new century. This had forced me to investigate not only his religious beliefs, but my own also. What I found did not change my idea on the evolution of life, but it did open me up to the flaws in the theory.

First, I must correct some of my fellow members:

Mael, the fossil record has not recorded failed experiments. Each of those lifeforms was successful and was highly evolved for its time. Evolutionary success is measured in an individual's ability to pass on its genetic material on to the next generation. If you believe in evoloution as a series as steps that lead to the diversity found today, then you must accept that the fossil record is a snapshot in time and individual success is measured by what came before it.

Ratman, there is no empirical evidence that supports evolution. This emplies an ability to reproduce the results in support of the thoery. Thats the rub. No one can reproduce phylogeny (the "family tree", so to speak) of any given lifeform, even Homo sapien. One cannot test the theory because time manipulation is impossible.

greytone was correct in stating that Darwin was able to get an idea of the mechanism of natural selection through pigeon breeding, but natural selection is about random chance and domestication of agricultural livestock cannot be compared due its mechanism of directed selection (A farmer "selects" traits when breeding the livestock that are desirable only to the farmer).

Labell, you feel that evolution fits the facts, not fitting the facts to the thoery. Which facts? The fossil record is fragmented at best, with implied relationships between groups of lifeforms. What if these relationships turn out to be artificial and contrived in order to best fit a theory that cannot be tested?

I am not trying to pick on anyone here. I am just trying to open eyes to the flaws in the theory. In comparison, Creationism has it easy. God made everything and it all works because thats how He planned it. Don't have to test a thing because I've got FAITH!

And this is how my arguements ended with my buddy. We agreed to disagree. He has is belief in God and I have my belief in random chance. I'm still not sure who came out on top of all this.
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Old 05-03-2003, 06:35 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I think they both have strong points and both fail in some areas.. with that being said I believe in Creationism. Just seems more logical to me. It's kind of a dead subject though as no-one will ever really know what happend IMO.
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Old 05-03-2003, 06:37 PM   #23 (permalink)
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It can all be explained as something man created. Evolution and Creationism could easily be flawed in either respect. What is favoring though is science, something we have used to create many things provides support for Evolution. However, Creationism's support is the bible and word of mouth. So i'd definatly favor Evolution more then Creationism. Also, even though Evolution may only be a theory, we have fossils dated before when the bible says the earth and the universe was created and carbon dating is not a theory science.
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Old 05-03-2003, 06:39 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I also subscribe to the notion that the universe is an illusion sustained by our delusions.
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Old 05-03-2003, 06:39 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I am not sure what you mean by "carbon dating is not a theory science" but from all I have read on it (both from secular and non secular sources) it is iffy at best.
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Old 05-03-2003, 06:44 PM   #26 (permalink)
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its not accurate to the day or hour but to some 75 years (from when the carbon particle was formed), if i'm not mistaken. And what i mean by it not being a theory science, its supported as a law if i'm not mistaken yet again..
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Old 05-03-2003, 06:46 PM   #27 (permalink)
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I believe there is no reason what so ever that both cannot be totally acceptable. Creationism and evolution could easily be the same thing. Debating this ranks right up there with the chicken/egg debacle. If you go with creationism you deal with earth, man, etc. being created over an indeterminate period of time - Why couldn't this be evolution?
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Old 05-03-2003, 06:55 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by elaphe
greytone was correct in stating that Darwin was able to get an idea of the mechanism of natural selection through pigeon breeding, but natural selection is about random chance and domestication of agricultural livestock cannot be compared due its mechanism of directed selection (A farmer "selects" traits when breeding the livestock that are desirable only to the farmer).
I agree that animal husbandry is not natural selection. But it is evolution in the sense that it a change in gene frequency of a given population over time. It is not Evolution as discussed in this thread, but its existence supports the existence of the greater evolution, in my mind. In other words, if we are seeing a change in a species in just a few generations, then how can we deny that natural populations change over time?
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Old 05-03-2003, 06:59 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Why do we generally gravitate to the simplest answers to explain lifes complex questions.I agree with the last post.Just because you may not believe the position of another person, it doesn't mean they are absolutley wrong.
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Old 05-03-2003, 06:59 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Of course a common question for evolution is if we evolved from apes why are there still apes? I mean the whole point of it is we are the better suited more evolved apes. Shouldn't the weaker ones have been "naturally selected" out? I mean if the missing link between apes and humans can be "evolved out" of the system why can apes not be?
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Old 05-03-2003, 07:34 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Well, if we get down to it both Evolution and Creationalism are theories created by man to satisfy the intellect.

The difference between the two is that evolution has a basis in reality and is observable. Creationalism is a fictoinal story and appeals to our irrational side which doesn't want to face the reality.

Ultimately, neither can be said to be the final answer.
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Old 05-03-2003, 07:43 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Agnosticism, plain and simple. I cannot even begin to ponder about something I only experience on such a small level. And just to help make some things clear, it is ok for catholics to believe in evolution as long as they believe God got the ball rolling.
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Old 05-03-2003, 07:48 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by BBtB
Of course a common question for evolution is if we evolved from apes why are there still apes? I mean the whole point of it is we are the better suited more evolved apes. Shouldn't the weaker ones have been "naturally selected" out? I mean if the missing link between apes and humans can be "evolved out" of the system why can apes not be?
What if we are the ones who will weed them out over time? It looks as though we may be able to wipe out all lesser species in due time.

On a more serious note, some monkeys, bonobos, are becoming extinct as we speak. Weeding out the gene pool takes millions of years and doesn't just happen over night. We still have a tailbone but no tail. If if it ever goes away it will take time. If something is succesful, there is no reason for it to evolve at a fast pace, or at all. Why mess with what works?
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Old 05-03-2003, 10:01 PM   #34 (permalink)
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I've always been curious about something. The Big Bang Theory has better solidarity now that findings show our galaxy is expanding out. If that’s the case and the Big Bang is causing our universe to expand outward; what is the space it has not yet expanded to?
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Old 05-04-2003, 01:45 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by elaphe

Labell, you feel that evolution fits the facts, not fitting the facts to the thoery. Which facts? The fossil record is fragmented at best, with implied relationships between groups of lifeforms. What if these relationships turn out to be artificial and contrived in order to best fit a theory that cannot be tested?
LEbell.

No, I don't "feel" anything, I am stating fact. Evolution is currently the best theory for the origin of species. It has been observed on the microlevel and numerous fossils support it on the macro level. No fossils have been discovered that controvert the theory.

The only arguements among scientists regarding evolution center around the exact mechanisms and the pace. There is no serious arguement that evolution is not fact.
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Old 05-04-2003, 02:01 AM   #36 (permalink)
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I think there is a point where science and religion meet to provide an ultimate answer. I don't know if we humans will ever be able to conceptualize that point and if we ever do, the means we use will be far beyond the conventions of science and religion as we know them now.

In A Brief History of Time, Hawking wrote that a theory of everthing would allow us to "know the mind of God".

Now he has doubts about that statement, thinking that "maybe it is not possible to formulate the theory of the Universe in a finite number of statements."

I know we're a fair way off getting any answers, but we must keep pushing on!

btw BBtB, I don't think humans evolved from apes - rather modern apes and modern humans evolved from common ancestors. Also, there's no guarantee that a "stronger" species will survive over a "weaker" species. It's about which species was "fit" to survive in a particular environment. Again the terminology can be confusing.
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Old 05-04-2003, 02:20 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by BBtB
Of course a common question for evolution is if we evolved from apes why are there still apes? I mean the whole point of it is we are the better suited more evolved apes. Shouldn't the weaker ones have been "naturally selected" out? I mean if the missing link between apes and humans can be "evolved out" of the system why can apes not be?
This is a common query, based on a basic misunderstanding of natural selection. All the current apes (chimps, gorillas, humans etc) share a common genetic ancestry. Each species has been subject to natural selection to best fit their environment. As that environment changes over time, so natural selection, inevitably, alters those populations. The process of natural selection cannot be denied if one accepts that

a. within a population, a range of characterisitics exists.

b. the membership of that population changes over time.

The phrase 'more evolved' also implies a direction to evolution which does not exist. All that matters is survival in an environment, and by any measure - number, variety, mass, longevity - single cell organisms win, hands down. Perhaps they are in God's image?

Of course, the origin of the Universe isn't really Evolution vs. Creationism, it's Astrophysics vs. Creationism.
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Old 05-04-2003, 05:22 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by elaphe
Labell, you feel that evolution fits the facts, not fitting the facts to the thoery. Which facts? The fossil record is fragmented at best, with implied relationships between groups of lifeforms.
Yes, it is fragmented, but on the other hand : what kind of "evidence" do you have for the creatiion? A 2000 year old book. Cool.

Sorry but I still can't understand how people can accept a fairy tale as fact and ignore solid evidence.
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Old 05-04-2003, 11:24 AM   #39 (permalink)
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See so many people think it HAS to be evolution vs creationism. If you doubt evolution then you MUST believe in creationism. Can there not be a third direction? I personally think they are both wrong. They are both full of MAJOR holes. But its okay. Whatever delusion you prefer is fine with me. So just spin the wheel and pick a religion. Wether that religion is Christanity, Secular Humanism , Budhism , Islam or whatever. Its all about what gets you through the day without feeling the need to hurt me or mine.
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Old 05-04-2003, 12:04 PM   #40 (permalink)
Cracking the Whip
 
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Location: Sexymama's arms...
BBtB,

Feel free to offer your own theory that explains what we know through biology and paleontology.

Until you do, I'll happily stay 'deluded' with evolution.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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