Reese

First off, I have total respect for anyone's religion.

As I was watching Rescue Me last night the priest said "God has a plan for everyone." then they preceded to pray for the girl. Now, If God had planned on this girl dying she would die correct? Why would they pray? If their prayer was answered and God spared her life, that means that by praying you changed God's plan. With millions of prays daily, Do you know how much we've screwed up his plan? So, I've come to the conclusion that God doesn't have a plan, and things just are.

I realise how stupid this post is, so there's no need to point that out. Just give some thoughts.

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SecretMethod70

No, it's not stupid, you're right. It's just one of the differences between underdeveloped faith and faith that has actually been thought through.

Either what we call God has a plan and praying asking for things has no effect other than consolation of ourselves and expression of our feelings, or what we call God has a plan that we take control and responsibility for our own lives and God is generally far less concerned with the corporeal world than many people of faith believe God to be. Frankly, either way, petitionary prayers are clearly fruitless IMO. Not to say that they're "wrong" per se, but only to say that I don't think one should not expect them to be answered. Incidentally, I believe in the latter of the two possibilities I presented.

(This is, of course, ignoring the "God doesn't exist" and "religion is a crutch for the weak" argument that I'm sure some of our atheistic zealots will be more than happy to point out in response to this thread later on )

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

StormBerlin

I believe the reason people pray to God when something tragic happens is most likely to find out kind of what's going on. True, people do ask for help and pray for the health of this person but if they still die I think because of the praying it helps them understand and feel peace.

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"if anal sex could get a girl pregnant i'd be tits deep in child support" Arcane

asaris

I think that it's clear from scripture that prayer can and does "change God's mind". But how does it do that? Well, people have been arguing about this for thousands of years; the best answer, it seems to me, is that God always knew that you were going to pray, and so he always planned on "changing his mind". But any issue about God's providence and human freedom is fraught with difficulty, this one no less than others.

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

CSflim

Maybe God plans on us praying to him?

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wilbjammin

I've often wondered if, in the Christian schema, God would be upset with how selfish everyone's prayers are.

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Innominate.

repeater

This is really the whole predestination type argument isn't it? If God has a plan, is it possible to change it? From what I understand people say that God has a plan, he knows what's going to happen, it's just not always what he wants to happen. If God does exist as the Bible or anywhere else says he does, then he probably wants all of us to go to heaven. That'll never happen though right?

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When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
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CoachAlan

Indeed the underlying argument is about the existence of Free Will. Yours is a very astute observation, cybermike. Where God is concerned, one finds many apparent contradictions and paradoxes.

As SecretMethod70 points out, asking the big questions like this is a great way to further develop your faith and to better understand your relationship (or lack thereof) with God.

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"If I cannot smoke cigars in heaven, I shall not go!"
- Mark Twain

Halx

Indeed.. so much for humility.

With 6 billion people in the world and each one with their different view of what God is, I can only deduce one thing. Everyone is wrong.

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Rodney

In my view, God's not here to say how things will be. That's up to us. God's here to make it possible for people to get through the shit that inevitably happens.

hannukah harry

Except me. The rest of you are screwed. Sorry.

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shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer

Seer666

Stop Halx what's that sound, every body look what's going down.....



Sorry, you post just struck a musical cord with me. Couldn't help myself...

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Bad spellers of the world untie!!!

I am the one you warned me of

I seem to have misplaced the bullet with your name on it, but I have a whole box addressed to occupant.

Seer666

Well, I love to bash the Church. In fact, I want to see the Vatican burned to the ground and the earth where it stood salted. I hate it with a passion that goes beyond sanity. but I get along with God very well. Love the man. M views on him differ largly from the main stream Christian view. I do not think he is All Powerful and All Knowing. he might as well be compaired to us, but even He has His limets. And He only get's involved with us when we ask Him to. So, when we pray, and we need help, He get's involved if it fits with His plan. If we tell Him to take a fly leap, then He leaves us to deal with our own mess. I don't really think there is a "Plan", so much as just a guide line.

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Bad spellers of the world untie!!!

I am the one you warned me of

I seem to have misplaced the bullet with your name on it, but I have a whole box addressed to occupant.

ARTelevision

I think it would really be bad news if there was a god who had a plan. And I think it would be really bad if one had to pray to that god to have an effect on the plan, or whatever. I find it truly astounding and amazing that people have thoughts like this.

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asaris

Why do you think that, ART?

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

ARTelevision

I think if there was a god who had a plan that events on earth would point to a god whose plan was brutal, savage, torturous, murderous, genocidal, and cold beyond what would be acceptable to anyone but a supremely unfeeling sadistic psychopath.

To have to pray to that god for something would be equally unacceptable.

I know some people feel otherwise, but I do not feel inclined to ask them why.

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theusername

Agreed ART, I sure hope God doesnt have an ultimate plan that is totally his or else he's planned out a lot of negatives in our world. I stopped believing in this form of God after studying the Holocaust when i was younger. I just didn't see the possibility that my God would do nothing in that kind of situation.
When a girl gets kidnapped, raped, and thrown into a forest that can not possibly be in God's plans. So maybe I believe what Ben Franklin believed which is that God created us and left. Or he gave us free will and in giving us free will he is not allowed to interfer. Just my thoughts.

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Seer666

You argument is just one of the reasons I don't follow the standard Christian view. While I believe in God, I also believe that it is WE who are responsible for all the crap in this world. I could not walk away from the things I've seen and felt that make me believe in God, and many other things, but I could not take a God that was a homicidal mad man either. So, through much thought, reading, and searching, I built my own system. I'm cynic, but I try to find something worth wild in this world and the next.

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Bad spellers of the world untie!!!

I am the one you warned me of

I seem to have misplaced the bullet with your name on it, but I have a whole box addressed to occupant.

asaris

I actually take the exact opposite view. Because of all the horrendous evils in the world, I feel there has to be a God to make everything worthwhile in the end. Else there is no goodness, and life is just a cruel joke.

Exactly what position I take on God's providence depends on what direction I look at it from. From the human perspective, we have free will, events are 'random', and God's providence takes the form of working with what we give him to bring goodness out of evil. From God's perspective, everything is pre-ordained, even though he is constrained to some extent by our free choice. (In brief, God knows that in circumstance C we would freely choose to do A, and he can put us in C, but he can't make it so we would freely do ~A in C.)

Now the answer to the question "Why doesn't God act?" is threefold. First of all, we don't know why he acts in some situations and not others. We are not God, and we don't know everything he knows. Secondly, he refrains from acting in order to respect our freedom. If he intervened whenever we were going to do something evil, we wouldn't really have free will, would we? Thirdly, he is not up on high, watching disinterestedly as we suffer -- he suffers with us, as he suffered on the cross.

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

ARTelevision

"...there has to be a God to make everything worthwhile in the end."

I don't see this as necessary, really. I mean, since you're just making things up, couldn't you make up any reason to make things worthwhile? How about 72 virgins? That seems to be the same sort of attempt, doesn't it? I see a lot of people making things up in order to make the unacceptable acceptable. It's not too convincing.

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Bill O'Rights

If I recall correctly, that is the religious view taken by a group very similar to Satanists. Hell, they might be Satanists, for all I know. Anyway, their view is that "God" is the being that you have described. Lucifer, and his followers, rose up against God to put order into the universe, was defeated, and subsequently banished.

Not that I subscribe to any of it. You have to first believe in god, to believe in satan, and so on, and so forth. I, personally, have no use for any of it. I just find it interesting, is all, how "fringe" religions take thier view.

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"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

ARTelevision

Right. There is a fictitious being called Satan, too.

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wilbjammin

The concept of "Satan" is a metaphor. The literal translation of "Satan" means in opposition.

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Innominate.

ARTelevision

And the world is full of folks who believe in metaphors as actual things.

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CoachAlan

That really gave me a chuckle. What an astute and timely observation. It's troubling that there are so many who take every word of the Bible as literal fact, despite the huge volumes of rigorously collected evidence to the contrary.

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"If I cannot smoke cigars in heaven, I shall not go!"
- Mark Twain

hannukah harry

modern day satanism (at least in the lavey form) doesn't believe in the christian satan. they just call it that cause it pisses people off. the main idea is more along the lines of wicca, where the world has an "energy" to it that can be manipulated. unlike wicca (which states do what you will as long as you harm none), satanism says do what you will if it makes you feel good. there are some smaller sects of satanism that are more literal and opposite christianity, but the most popular form has nothing to actually do with it.

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shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer

Seer666

Gnostics. They are not really an orginized group so much as whole lot of views with one common point. They believe that there is some sort of great secret they are privy to that the rest of the Christians aren't. Some openly follow Satan, believing that he is the good guy and God just has better PR. SOme follow God, bu think they know something about hi the rest don't. Some believe and openly hate both. As for Satanists, there are 2 groups that fall under this heading. Ones that believe Satan is the bad guy, but worship him out of hope of power in this world, who I call Diablolists just to avoid confuse in convos, and Satanists ala Antwan Devay(sp?), who don't worship Satan at all but self. Devay picked that name as a symbol of dark sentuality which he feels we should no ignore in ourselves, and to piss of the Christians. I guess I do fall under the Gnostic heading, but I don't really consider myself one. I say Christain when people ask my my beliefs, but I don't really consider myself part of any group. Besides, Satan is a pussy. Just look at the Christain food chain. God, us, angels. Satan is an angel. can't touch me unless I let him. Besides, I could have won that war a few thousand years ago.

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Bad spellers of the world untie!!!

I am the one you warned me of

I seem to have misplaced the bullet with your name on it, but I have a whole box addressed to occupant.

snater

there is an assumption that God has total control over everything. If god had total control, then there would be no free will. Events in one's life spawn from another event previous to that. Maybe you were late, or early, or just said something to make someone feel a certain way. You can argue god orchestrated the chain of events to happen, or that we choose our fate by our actions rather then conscious thought and planning, proving he does have a plan. Or you can believe we have total free will, and god dictates nothing, all he did was shuffle the cards, if you will.

asaris

False dichotomy, snater. As I said earlier, God knows what we would freely choose to do, were we in a certain circumstance, and so places us in the circumstances he chooses (obviously it's more complicated than that, since which circumstances we're in depend on what circumstances others are in and vice versa). You're going to have to say a lot more to support your position.

Regarding my claim about there needing to be some sort of cosmic justice. This is founded on two premises of mine. First, that there is evil in the world. Second, that it is better to be good than evil. The first is simply basic; I can maybe offer some evidence for it, but it's not something I can really argue for. I can offer some arguments for the second, if you want. Now, if goodness does not somehow win out in the end, if there is not a God who somehow redeems all the evil and suffering in the world (and yes, I'm using the word redeems purposefully), being good is just some sort of cosmic joke. Either God, or no goodness.

Before you accuse me of a position I don't hold, let me clarify that I hardly think that, without God, people would just shaft and be shafted (to paraphrase Thrasymachus). There are reasons to be nice. But niceness is hardly goodness.

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

ARTelevision

"First, that there is evil in the world. Second, that it is better to be good than evil."

Isn't that sufficient reason, then, to be "good"?
Why introduce the extremely problematic concept of "god" when you've already justified being good without it?

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brianna

i once saw a bumper sticker that said "nothing fails quite like prayer" -- i almost bought it but then reconsidered due to a love for not bieng shot by insane fundementalists.

MSD

Gnosticism Is a fairly complex polytheistic/pantheistic religion. Luciferians (infernalists) are the believers in the biblical devil. Satanists in the First Church of Satan (www.churchofsatan.org) follow a code set forth in the Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth and the Nine Satanic Statements. Followers of the Original Church of Satan are mainly white supremacists devoted to the beliefs of both Hitler and Crowley.

Seer666

Well, in defense of the FCOS, the Hitler part is not part of their doctrine, just what SOME (Read, not all, or even most) of these people bring with them.

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Bad spellers of the world untie!!!

I am the one you warned me of

I seem to have misplaced the bullet with your name on it, but I have a whole box addressed to occupant.

Johnny Rotten

I think it's because most people can't handle objective morality--can't envision a world where it's up to people to make the rules and punish the rule-breakers. People also like the Western God because you have the chance of going to Heaven and living in paradise forever after you die, as long as you've been a conscientious worshipper. It also means the bad people get punished in Hell, even if they got away with things while they were alive. Balance and order, with everyone accounted for.

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"The idea that money doesn't buy you happiness is a lie put about by the rich, to stop the poor from killing them." -- Michael Caine

WeAllDie1Day

God has a plan for everyone is probably one of the dumbest phrase I have ever heard. I love how my life isn't -being controlled by some invisible all knowing all seeing man who lives in the sky.

asaris

Boy, WeAllDie1Day, you make a compelling argument.

ART -- I can't really give a full answer, but the meat of it is that justice requires that good be rewarded and evil punished. Even if 'goodness is its own reward', it's pretty clear that a lot of evil goes unpunished by the temporal authorities and society. And few people are really good until late in life, since it takes a lot of practice to be good. So how long does one get to enjoy being good? 10 years, maybe 20? Is that enough of a 'reward'?

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

wilbjammin

This relies solely on the metaphor of a strong father figure as the determiner of justice. The concept of justice in this manner means that people naturally don't know the difference between good and evil, or would naturally choose evil. Then, when doing evil, they must be punished and that punishment will be transposed on them from the higher figure.

Of course, it is easy to see how the strong father figure metaphor looks exactly like the metaphor of God being the ultimate masculine authority figure. The idea of punishment as justice is problematic for several reasons: 1) How do you know if people are intentionally choosing evil? 2) How do you decide how to punish someone if punishments are variable in length and severity? 3) Punishment does not necessarily instill a new sense of morality in those punished. 4) Punishment is reactive rather than proactive. 5) Punishment tends to lead to resentment, and can actually lead to more evil than less. There are even more problems with this model, but I'll stop for now.

An alternative form of justice comes from the community model/metaphor. It simply states that justice is determined by what is best for the community. It values each person justice is determined on individual bases taking into account the situations; not on a transcendent purveyor of justice. In this model, people are not naturally evil and they are capable and willing to be positive, contributing members of society if they are given a chance to do so. To create justice, then, society must work to remove the conditions that creates evil (such as poverty, neglect, pollution, individual cases within families the creates negative cycles, etc.). The advantage of this model is that it is pro-active and that it sees evil as not being beyond reason. Justice, then, is focused on giving people that do evil things a chance for rehabilitation and retribution if at all possible, within the main goal of protecting society. Imprisonment is then a necessary part of society for those that cannot be rehabilitation, however, this does not mean that being in prison is supposed to be an awful experience.

I think that everyone has access to these two archetypes that gives us a framework to understand justice. I think our society is dominated by the first metaphor, and I certainly think that, at the least, more attention should be spend on the other model.

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Innominate.

ARTelevision

Johnny Rotten, unfortunatey, I think you are correct in your assessment.

asaris, introducing the problematic metaphysical concept of "justice" into your premise is not very different from introducing "god". Personally, I prefer an existential interpretation for what is meant by "justice". This would be similar to wilbjammin's second archetype. Humans and human societies do what is possible to enforce this idea - as it seems to satisfy a human need. To imagine it as a part of the fabric of space and time is unsupportable by evidence.

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roachboy

not only is there no god but there is no objective morality.
i would be closer to wilbjammin's second model....even though i am not a fan of the language of morality (evil)....

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spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

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rukkyg

First time I've agreed with something Art said.