Actually, I think it goes both ways. Our laws effect sociological change and vice-versa. I do think that legalizing rape would significantly increase the instances of rape. But not every able-bodied male would take part in the deed, of course, because the law is only one factor in behavioral influences.

There's one problem I see with this line of reasoning: the penalties for speeding and underage drinking are much less severe. I'd imagine that is a big reason for the huge amount of risk-taking in those areas.

Assuming we were to treat, legally, abortion as we treat infanticide, I don't think your above argument would be nearly as appropriate. Now, if we were to treat it like drug use or even drunk driving...yeah, I could see that.

Whoa, whoa, stop the presses...organized religion did something immoral in the past?? :p

I can't say that legalities ever entered into my mind in my continious decision to not commit rape. Nor of anyone I know of. Hell, it's not even a decision really. I think that if legalities ever become a deciding factor, the decision has been made and it's a terrifying one.
Well, I agree with you there to an extent. If we were to deal out harsh sentances for abortion(such as life) and abortion was something that was easily detectable, I think laws would decrease abortion. However, people goto abortion clinics as an optimal choice for safety and comfort. There are many other forms of abortions which cannot be even remotely detected. So even with harsh punishments, I don't think laws could decrease abortion. Plus, I don't think we'd ever get to the point where we would ever deal out harsh punishments. No one wants to see a young girl handcuffed and sent to jail over this. Few people would ultimately be able to stomach it, even pro-lifers. There a world of difference between fighting for verdict and fighting for the punishment. If you asked pro-lifers what the actual punishment should be, I think most would say something minor. Most haven't thought that far because to them, it's a battle for values and sending young girls to prison is not a value.

Certainly. A change in the law wouldn't affect most people.

But there are certainly people of a low moral fiber that are only deterred by the belief that they'll get caught and punished.


Most of the time, it's comfort and not safety. 'Comfort' doesn't quite encompass the whole of the reasons I'm referring to, but safety generally has little or nothing to do with it.

And people will give up 'comfort' when they see it as putting themselves in legal danger too large to justify the risk. I know a good number of former potheads who quit because of jobs/marriage/kids, for instance.

As for the harder to detect methods of abortion...we do all that we possibly and Constitutionally can. It wouldn't be the first time that individual rights got in the way of prosecuting criminal acts.

Unfortunately, I think you're correct to some degree in that assertion.

But I'm a pro-lifer, how about I ask myself?

...I'm about as reluctant to send a young girl to jail for an abortion as I am to send a young girl to jail for infanticide.

44 million lost

yes, that's millon

<br>
not sure if you're aware - but abortion is most likely never about 'hate'.

Yeah, I'm sure it's all about love and selfishness has absolutely nothing at all to do with it.

Let's see, each sperm counts as half a life, and at millions of sperm per ejaculation....uh oh I've killed billions!

There's a bill hicks joke in here somewhere.

If killing a fetus is murder, then how about masturbation, is that murder too? if so, how about nocturnal emissions, are they murder? is menstruation murder? Jesus people, learn when to draw the line, Life starts when the child is emerged into the world.

This is the part where I call complete bullshit. The right wingers want their cake and eat it too. "WE WANT ROE V. WADE OVERTURNED!!!!!" They say.

but I still want access to it just in case my daughter gets raped.

What a fucking crock.

Bush and his cronies need to back the fuck off, and let a woman choose what to do with her own body.

i don't understand the rape exception either. i see the point one person made (sorry, forget your name) that their views on abortion are not religious, but that they feel if you make the choice to have sex you take the responsibility for it.

my real question for those who think abortion is wrong except in cases of rape or incest--how are you planning to enforce that? incest cases can be proven with dna, but rape? if there's no bruising are you going to tell the woman she's lying? what if she was drugged or intoxicated at the time and was unable to resist? or what if she was just scared shitless and didn't fight back? plenty of women don't you know--before you tell her she should, think how you'd respond to someone pointing a knife or gun at you, or worse, someone you love.

are you going to force her to press charges against her attacker and only make abortion available once the jury comes back? what if she doesn't know who it is or the police don't find him? investigations and trials take time--what happens if she's got to wait more than the term of her pregnancy for a verdict? or what if she's due to give birth at any moment--are you ok with an abortion since she's proved it was a result of rape?

what if she doesn't want to press charges (not all women do)? abortion isn't an option for her because she can't or won't prove it in court?

to me, this sort of "exception" isn't really an exception at all. it's either a way to make it legal for those who want it bad enough (lie, say you were raped and report an unknown attacker) or a way to prevent it (virtually) entirely because the woman couldn't prove she was raped in time to have an abortion.

and i don't think saying "if your wife were raped" is really a good scenario, let's use "if your 12 year old daughter were raped" instead. an adult woman may be able to understand (even if she doesn't agree) with being forced to go to term with the pregnancy, particularly if she had the support of her spouse. parents forcing a child to explain how she came to be pregnant to all her sixth grade friends (or being seen as a slut to everyone, including strangers on the street) and dealing with the results of that would be a lot more difficult. forcing her to grow up knowing she has a child out there somewhere once it was placed for adoption? or forcing her to be a part of the life of a child she never wanted (either as a parent or a sibling)? how many 12 year old girls are really prepared to make such a decision under any circumstances--but especially after being raped? forcing your young daughter understand and deal with the trauma of rape and the resulting pregnancy? i struggle to imagine forcing a child through that, and i don't have kids!