2012 and all that
 

Hello everybody,

I thought I'd dive in at the deep end with my first TFP post. I'd like to bring up the subject of the 21st December, 2012.

This is the scheduled end for the ancienct Mayan calender, and also of the timewave encoded in the I Ching. (as suggested by Terrence McKenna, the dates only later noticed to be coinciding).

What will happen in 2012? Well I don't think anybody can really put a good answer on that, given that so many different things in the world are changing. Dan S Ward, on his website Halexandria, cites a few possibilities being discussed. "These possibilities include 2012 A.D. as a time for:

1) major changes in human DNA (as in Indigo Children),

2) an enormous leap in Consciousness,

3) dimensional shifts (as in Hyperdimensional Physics and/or Superstrings),

4) the cessation of linear Time,

5) an evolutionary human pinnacle,

6) a huge surge and multiple breakthroughs in technology,

7) the end of Money [Shirley, you jest!],

8) massive genetic mutations [the good news!],

9) a serious, altogether-too-close encounter with a Near-Earth Objects member,

10) and a cosmic alignment of our solar system with the plane of our Galaxy, the Milky Way. The latter represents the end of a 25,920 year cycle -- a cycle based on the Precession of the Equinoxes). "

http://www.halexandria.org/dward415.htm

If you're not a fan of astrology you won't like this website at all. In fact, anybody with a sceptic streak probably won't like his website.

What I'm interested in is what people think of all this. Are there many of you out there who, like me, are waiting in silent anticipation for the rebirth of the human race? Who's scared of the wars that will inevitably come beforehand?

I'm anticipating many flat refusals to even discuss the possibility of these prophecies being true, but I'm hoping there may be some who agree in part with my beliefs.

Not a Mongoose

this belongs in Paranoia.

Not really....there is evidence available worthy of discussion

should members decide to think on it

No. At first, I thought the same...but...not yet. Let's see where this goes. You may yet be correct, but let's see.

Sure, just not my cup of tea I suppose. Predicting the future based on arbitrary positions and conjunctions of planets and stars makes no sense to me, and the idea that the ancient and wise Mayans planned their calendar to 'roll over' in 2012 is akin to me suggesting something exciting will happen when my car odometer rolls over to 10,000.

Quite how the structure of DNA might be affected by the position of planets is beyond me also.

I don't know what a dimensional shift is, but it might be interesting to discuss in a thread on its own.

Apologies for being so initially harsh. Welcome to the TFP Notamongoose, and please excuse my unfriendly manner - we're not all as rude as I am!

Obviously, it's the creation of the whole 16th dimensional 4-corner timecube, even I know that.

Look, as a Christian, I think the world's going to end eventually. But the fact of the matter is, people have been expecting the imminent end of the world since the beginning of the world, and we're still here. We should probably be ready for it, but to have a specific date? Empirical evidence suggests that any specific date is probably wrong.

The idea of the position of planets affecting us as humans had always seemed to me to be a ridiculous one. I began to realise it might be true when reading about 2012, but the clincher for me was a book by Sir Roger Penrose, "Shadows of the Mind". In it, he presents a candidate for the source of consciousness within the human mind: "large-scale quantum-coherent behaviour occurring within the microtubules of the cytoskeletons of neurons". The microtubules exhibit quantam computing behaviour, and, crucially, their structure is so fine that minute gravitational changes during their creation, such as the alignment of planets, can have an effect.

I think the most compelling evidence for the end date is in Terrence McKenna's Timewave. Simply based on the 6,000 year old I Ching, his mathematical analysis produced a wave that fit the changes in events throughout history. From the building of the egyptian pyramids, to the announcement of Einstein's theory of general relativity, all periods of great advancement and upheaval coincide with dips in the timewave graph. And the accelerating rate of technological change in the past 150 years coincides with a lengthened dip in the wave that approaches, then reaches zero, in 2012.

The I Ching, and the Tao Te Ching, are believed to be texts common to the roots of all the world's major religions. The fact that it actually has encoded within a map of historical change must say something for the validity of making predictions.

Oh come on. Buckaroo Bonzai II might be out by then. Seriously its going to be another day. This belongs in paranoia. By the way didn't we have a recent alignment of the planets and nothing happened. Seems we have had other end of the world "cults" spring up, and die. Thanks for alerting us to the next one in advance actually I'll actually be up on something new for a change so I guess I should say thanks.

Sounds like a pretty dubious claim. How can planets and other such objects have a greater effect on the formation of the microtubules than the gravity of the Earth?

If gravity really played such a large part during microtubular formation then imagine standing on one's head.

And of course, microtubules and the cytoskeletons of neurons are not DNA.

What the hell is a Timewave? How is it different from a Timecube?

Oh, I see. This has nothing to do with the Timecube, but rather with the I-Ching.

Given that this date came from two civilizations who couldn't stand the test of time, I don't think their theory will either. If they could accuratly foretell the outcome of the world or human race, I just think they would have been able to foretell and prevent their own falls.

If you analyse something enough, it will begin to fit whatever you want it to fit to. The I-Ching lends itself to dynamic analysis because it blends binary and trinary values and analysis of this type of data always produces chaotic patterns. Likewise tea-leaves, runes and other mumbo-jumbo.

The 'facts' you are referring to are not facts at all, but simple cases of data being bent and chosen to fit events.

Look at how there is a Timewave, and a 'Revised' TimeWave. If the first one is so good, why does he have to make a revision? To fit the facts presented (and ignored by the original Timewave) by the occurance of WWII. This is bogus pseudo-science being dressed up as fact, and it's simply not believable.

And only in the first Buckaroo Banzai movie did he travel across the 8th Dimension. In the as-yet-unfilmed sequel he will go up against the World Crime League.

I thought it is supposed to end this year, i'm not too sure why i say that but i recently spoke to a few people about this and we all agreed that although it was always thought to be 2012, in fact the dates were mixed up, and 2005 is the year of the 'end of the way life is as we know it'. I'll get back with some research to explain it all clearer.

As for all those who say it belongs in paranoia you're wrong it belongs in philosophy or here.

oh and from the list i punting for 2 and 3 to happen either that or nothing, but if it is 2 and 3 it won't happen to all and thats where i start losing the concept.

One thing i do know is that it has nothing to do with time, as that is a man made invention which simply does not exist, again i'm working on an explination of that to.

Here's a link to a larger-scale analysis of the timewave http://www.levity.com/eschaton/twzdemo.html - that shows how insignificant we are in the big scheme of things. Either the Timewave is human-centric and we are worthless stuff existing at the end of all time, or it is universal, and the things we 'predict' in it are not real because of all the other stuff that's happening in the universe that muddies up the signal, and it's the end of all time. Or maybe, it's just games with numbers.

There is nothing mystical about nature. As humans we like to attach some sort of arcane significance to natural laws. why? because we like excitement. Or having expert knowledge over and above the lay-person.

At any rate, 2012 will come and go like any other natural year.

Imagine what Dr. Banzai might have accomplished had he the chance to consult the mystical I-Ching.

Here's an explanation as to how the TimeWave is constructed

http://www.levity.com/eschaton/waveexplain.html

Which is more likely?

TimeCube:
http://www.timecube.com/rotate.gif

TimeWave:
http://www.levity.com/eschaton/GIFs/simplewave.gif

A fat person standing next to you has a much, much greater gravitiational effect on you than any of the stars or planets (excluding earth of course).

I'm actually somewhat curious as to whether there is evidence from the field of astronomy that would indicate that the planets will align on that date. Now of course, I don't expect any alignment to be a recognizable pattern to the average philosopher or lay-man. But just as a larf, I'd really like to see if maybe there's a straight line going at any point during that day? I'm sure they could project that. Someone get on it!

You are educated, stupid! Corner god nonexistent. Educators are teaching you Evil Cubelessness. Educators cannot allow Time Cube to be known!

I'm going to have to go with TimeCube, stupid!

We border on the need to move this to paranoia after all...heh

But the great Alex Chiu uses the I-Ching, and he says:

http://www.alexchiu.com/philosophy/corp44.gif

And Alex claims the Messiah will appear before 2010, which puts it right on track for a two year holy war with the great judgment in 2012!!!!!

http://www.alexchiu.com/philosophy/whoismessiah.jpg

Here is the problem. The effects are so minute that the position of a rock in the room next to the baby will have more effect than the positions of the planets.

Gravity is weak. Like really weak.

Electromagnatism is strong. Like really strong.

Have you ever heard of the rule of 5s?

In any case, if you want to place a large bet that the world will end or change in a specific way in 2012, I'm open to discussing the odds.

Lets work out the math!

Gravitational constant check:
http://google.com/search?q=G*mass+of...f+earth%5E2%29
Ayep, 9.8 m/s^2

Gravitational effect of mars at 1 AU distance:
http://google.com/search?q=G*mass+of...%281+AU%5E2%29

about 2 * 10^-9 m/s^2

Fat man standing 2 meters away:
http://google.com/search?q=G*150+kg%2F%282+m%29%5E2

about 2.5 * 10^-9 m/s^2

Fat man wins! Yay!

However, it isn't much, much. It does show the point: planets are far away. Like really far away. And electromagetic force is strong, like really strong, and really close.

(Oh god, the size of the gravitational forces of nearby fat men is going to lead into "astrology is true, and fat men have as much impact as planets, so we need to arrange the room with the right pattern of fat men to have a happy life! Feng Shui, here we come.")

Ok. Lets say two fat people then? :lol:

Hehehe. You're probably right. :)

I think it's dangerous to assume that because something does not last that it is not significant and ultimately pointless. Keep in mind that, eventually, all civilizations will fall and I, for one, would like to think think that contributing to them is all for nothing.

What's more, why is it significant that they did not see their own downfalls? Think of it this way: You're walking down a sidewalk and there's a storefront to your right. A brand new Playstation 13/diamond necklace/attractive model, interesting as hell, is sitting in the window. Your view turns to see this, but you keep moving forward. After all, you can't very well stop; you've got things to do.

BAM! There was a streetlight there the entire time, but you were too busy looking at everything else because the idea of running into a streetlight was the last thing on your mind. You should've seen the pole there, but the fact that you didn't doesn't mean you weren't able to.

Just a point to ponder on.

Well, if it IS the end of the world, or the greatest nuclear war, or the revolution of the robots, or even the Rapture, then hey, at least we had Transformers. Fuckin' rock on.
As for the Mayans predicting thier own downfall... weren't they wiped out by the spanish conquistadors for being heretics? I'm fairly sure that the Mayan calender was based solely on solar/astrological events, is it possible to predict something like that using an astrological calender?
I dont claim to be stating facts by the way, its very early in the morning and I'm just running off the top of my head.

- Lak

I have peppermint essence. I've been advised not to drink it but.... it looks pretty tempting.

OK I should really have given that planets/gravity thing a bit more thought.

Looks like I'll just have to crawl back into the woodwork with this one. Doesn't seem there's anyone around on the same wavelength in this respect.

Oh well.

I need to do some repeat reading about it. I can't remember where the link with our alien ancestors comes into it.

:D

I'm in notamongoose's boat, I'm of the opinion that points two and three are going to be sorta one in the same. Simply a return to the source.

I'll tell ya what, I'm ready for a change.

Zen_Tom You link to a very interesting web page (http://www.levity.com/eschaton/twzdemo.html).

But why does it show that we are insignificant? Events in our history resonate with events in galactic history. Maybe the Timewave is human-centric, but this does not make us worthless. If it is universal, would it not be natural to assume that events around the universe also resonate with the same pattern, that there is synchronicity? Neither of these objections you bring up challenge the validity of the timewave.

A personal view, that perhaps superiorrain and potifar might be able to elaborate on, is about the human-centricity of all this. A lot of statistics about our universe suggests that, if there were extra-terrestrial life out there, we'd have noticed by now. But these statistics assume a basically three-dimensional physical universe, with a fourth time dimension. But if, as modern physics almost demands, there are many more dimensions to the universe, then this allows us to look more closely at evidence that there is something else out there that is usually discounted. Sod the SETI project, if there are multiple dimensions, then there could be creatures / consciousnesses that are more aware of them than we are. Maybe they are able to communicate with us on a level we're barely aware of (telepathy / ESP, psychedelic / spiritual visions etc. even god-damn crop circles).
It's thoughts such as these that leads me to think 2. and 3. are likely to happen. Our civilisation and our minds are leading more and more towards the realisation that there is more to the universe than we previously thought. Our scriptures have told us this all along but we were unable to understand. Now science is catching up with the scriptures at an alarming and accelerating rate. The change is upon us (dum dum DUUUUUMMMMM)


I'm rambling so much... I hope I can leave this till tomorrow and not find that the thread has further dissolved into ridiculousness.

It's one thing to not be agreed with, but to be ridiculed by comparison with things like the TimeCube is a bit harsh I think.

We are constantly reminding ourselves that we only know enough to tell us that there is so much more to be known. It is also pretty much a given that knowledge fades and is transformed - some things become ridiculous and others get pared down to fit into more sets of evolving knowledge and understanding. One point that I think is worth mentioning is that as a species we have been around for 160 thousand years or more. In that time we have had a lot of very smart people put their heads together over a long period of time. Things like astrology are probably misunderstood or misapplied knowledge systems that used to function when we thought differently. By that I mean that our paradigms were different - not less valid, just different, and applied differently at their remove of aeons from here and now. Now whether or not a particular new idea or system can tally closely with such ephemera as world social upheavals (war and enlightenment and stuff) or with NEO's merging with dear mother Earth, the fact remains that if we can try to understand these echoes from our ancient pool of wisdom we can't lose by it. My 2 cents.

Well put Kramus. Now my belief that nothing important will occur.

Is this any different when people believed that the world was to end on the new millenium or back when I was 10 and watched the show Millenium (Yakk, is this your rule of 5's!!!) people believed that the world will end on May 5th, 2005? IT'S COMING! As for this Timewave... I remember the Doctor Who movie where Paul McGann said, "I love you humans, always finding patterns in things that aren't there." If anything this timewave shows correlation to the super consciousness that we tap into.

What man believes his "Random Number Generator" can be influenced by people when they think the number "1" http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=83318? Tell me when you have gotten it to predict the stock market.

I mean, believing what I do, it is interesting, that's a fact. But if it is real? Kurt Vonnegut writes about this as fact, and he makes money of it. Something that I will try doing.

May 5th I will be holding an End-Of-The-World Party and now I have another date to remember to throw one then too. Thank you.

Because the graph at the top of the page shows the events from after the big bang, where novelty takes a huge hit (there are also 4-5 other big novelty-changing events of a similar size to those of the big-bang (which must have been pretty novel on anyone's scale) - our history on the graph is the last 5mm on the right-hand side of the top graph.

It's only when it's really zoomed in do you get to see the events you are talking about in history - and I mean REALLY zoomed in.

So, given this massive amount of magnification, and the sense of scale you see with the other novelty changing events after the big-bang (which are SO massive, I'd really like to know how and what they relate to) - in comparison to these huge changes, the ups and downs that relate to the part of history that we've been around in don't seem to add up to much at all.

Finally, considering the huge magnification needed to see the events relating to human history, and the fact that the TimeWave supposedly reflects a universal level of 'novelty', then what of the alien races we are going to meet, where are the bumps and spikes from their history? Are they super-imposed on the same TimeWave, one would expect so - if that is the case, then how do we know that the spike that represents Ghandi, or Oprah doesn't actually stand for N'gghanault Zpra'kkha, the great Frangapillian Oracle from Orangijuice IV? Or do aliens not HAVE any history?

Seriously, this is so much nonsense.

I just re-read your post Notamongoose, and the idea of Synchronicity is a valid one to explain why we don't get Oprah and N'gghanault confused.(or at least why it doesn't matter if we do - since their history might be in tune with our own)

I'm still not convinced due to the general sense of scale though. There are 4 events after the big-bang that show drops in 'novelty' of over 7.5million points - while the birth of Christ registers as a change of less than 0.5 - that really doesn't say much for Jesus does it?

Or to put it in a better way, it doesn't fit my comfortably safe (and possibly to some, dull and boring) world-view.

I can't imagine how people can settle for a 'comfortably safe' world-view. The whole 'we're just an accident' theory just doesn't fit with my opinion. Just pondering things like the universe, the complexity of the human race/brain, the ancient civilisations and their absolute obsession with areas we shrug off as nonsense convinces me that this whole ride isn't just an accident.

Try looking at it from a point of view other than your own (human) one - try considering how small this planet is, and how much time it's been hanging around in space doing nothing at all. Humanity as we know it (i.e. civilised humanity) has only been around for maybe 5,000, or if you really push the boat out, 10,000 years. Compare that to the age of the planet, the solar-system, our galaxy, or the universe.

We're just not that special - and have had a LONG long time to have been generated by accident. If we were created on purpose, it was by someone who was most definately not in a hurry.

I must agree that since philosophy is "Investigation of the nature, causes, or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical reasoning rather than empirical methods," this thread has departed from the category.

As it stands we have little hope of parsing Notamongoose's posts because they are a blather of unorganized thoughts based on ways of thinking with even less logical structure. Perhaps we might start with something small, like what effect alignments of anything can have on human history and expand from there.

Phage, I think the effect of alignments on human history was explored very well in the Tomb Raider movie. I don't think we can possibly hope to discuss the issue in more depth and rationality than was done there.

Actually, wait a minute - I was reading this and suddenly everything just clicked into place! - TimeCube, TimeWave, The Matrix, Will & Grace - it all makes sense now!

HA! That just about sums it all up, doesn't it?

all math hurts me on a psychological level... ask Augi... but, it has to end sometime and i would rather know when for selfish reasons (any ideas? don't answer that).

and i will finally find out the secret to will & grace... finally!!

but seriously, the human race was an accident, the platypus was meant to rule the world. they may yet have their chance.

how the structure of DNA might be affected by the position of planets is beyond me also.

I don't think anything special will happen. However, I don't absolutely not believe anything will happen. Just like the first day of the years 2000 and 2001 I'll be a little extra curious at that time. Would be cool if something did happen though, if I only live once it'd be cool to be among the last human beings that lived.

I know this is a dead thread, but the Mayans DID predict the end of their civilization... They saw their end come as a "pale faced god from the sea". Cortez landed the exact date they predicted the end of their civilization.

I'd be more inclined to say it's like 10:14:08PM on January 18th, 2038.

It's a design choice to not worry about what happens when the cycles come to an end based on the pragmatic observation that THE END doesn't happen for a while yet and will be Somebody Else's Problem. And then we come along after the fact and attach all sorts of significance to it.

Do you remember the Mayan calendar? When did it end?



2012.



There's a lot to wonder and learn.........

Oh my. I've been such a fool.

What have I done with my life?

Indigo children aren't going to appear in 2012. They allready are here, do some reasearch on the numbers of them alive, percentage wise for newborns it is something over 50% of newborn children are an indigo. Being an indigo is something else, let me tell you. Something as far as DNA and indigo children is sketchy at best, there is no solid proof on what they call 'Christ seed' DNA being in indigos. Their blood for donations or receptions works just the same as regular persons blood, nothing perecptable there or harmful in their blood from DNA.

The thing that indigos might do by 2012 is change the world. Not though DNA but major changes on the systems in place. Governments and religions will go through major changes brought forth by indigos, weither or not it will be attributed to indigo children though the news or not is still up in the air. If you really want to find out what will change do some research in the matter.

At any rate the DNA of indigos isn't going to change the world they will physically. Their DNA is allready out there.

They are the next 'big thing'.

What's an Indigo Child?

The hell is this site?? my eyes hurt just trying to browse it, my mind hurts trying to make sense of the incredibly difficult syntax, and disorganized fonts and content. Would you care to summarize?

From what I understand it is some sort of mythical telepathic/empathic/spiritualathic supermutantchild made popular by a fiction series. Imagine Scientology fused with the Da Vinci Code following.

Imagine if you took a UFO tinfoil-hat-wearing nut and put him on crack, then distilled the essence of the next morning's mental puke into a festering fermented potion of lunacy. That is something like the timecube site. The pain you feel in your brain is a defensive mechanism to prevent more serious damage.

What is the unit "novelty" represented in the graphs?

ditto. Please explain... :confused:

Ahhhh.... Bach!

way off man. It is actually the soul's aura of the person. They typically embody those characteristics.

so is all that, or at least even 1 of, suposed to happen exactly on the scheduled date?


thats just so dumb.

why is it dumb, because a civilization had a calander and then said... the world is going to end? Is that so far off from our own world views? Chistiantity (sp) says the world will end and the misahha will rise again... they seem to have the same vague idea just they decided not to put a date on it.

I'll admit that I like punctualality in my life. At least this way I can know if I really need to worry about christmas that year or not that evening.

I find myself heavily confused...Because of lack of research or what I dont know though..
2012, a date... Why does anything HAVE to happen? TIME does not bring around change... Actions bring around change, the actions which are cause of even smaller variables of other actions..... I simply dont know what variables should be counted to forsee such a change of world wide effect.. Say if a butterfly flaps its wings... in America.. Would it ever create a great wind on the other side of the world because 1 butterfly flapped its wings? I think not, yet say we set up 5 gaint fans in a small room... would the accumalitive effect create a larger effect than the single fans used one at a time? My point is simply, because of what large groups of variables or actions with change be set into effect... Honestly if you are looking for world wide effect then good luck... could be anything...from plague, to starvation, war, increase's in technology, science... Anything..

Everyone should remember that mathematics is a human construct, look up Godel and the like to find out the limits of what logic can provide. I remember a highly intelligent (genius-like) physics student having an arguement with a lecturer on how it was 'wrong' that imaginary numbers were 'made-up' just for convenience. I laughed inwardly while my outward appearance showed no signs of the gruelling schedule i had placed upon myself in persuit of the ultimate 'high', which i later found out to be a combination of ecstasy, ketamine and 3 lesbians in a field watching 'the rocky horror picture show' on a large screen. Little did I know that the end of causual existance was nigh with the advent of liposuction for the fat and herbal remedies for the twitching naval commanders. cantona

...That... was great....

I woulden't mind the end of the world or it's said rebirth to begin or end in such a manner as the company of three lesbians and me watching a movie while on drugs.... that would be a great anything... even a death.