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Old 06-01-2003, 12:26 PM   #1 (permalink)
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A Great Delimma

For years I've struggled with a problem I have with most "Christians".

Gay people are evil. Gay people can be "cured".

I find those two thoughts dire insults for a couple of reasons.

number one, when the S&G showdown took place, Jesus was not a participate at all. he had pretty much zilch to do with this. it was God, the Father who ravaged.

note that I believe in Jesus Christ as my god. it is the only beliefe I have ever felt comfortable wit hand believe. one pure man with no moral failures, an Avatar for God, a leader who says you don't have to rule the world or use violence. He taught us that we can be kind and loving even to those who are our enemies. he has told us "hey, you are mortal. lighten up. you will fuck up. But I love you and you'll be just fine."

to me, this is what life is about. I am a tempermantel guy. i normally have a long fuse, but once I go off, I go off in a big and major way. When I do keep my temper in check I try hard to stick with kindness. violence is oftentimes neccesary but rarely needed. I like peace.


anyhow, before i stray too far from my reasoning of making this thread, let me begin what I plan to do. This will be a BIG post, maybe two. I am posting full scripture so we can disect and not say 'but i thought this said this about that".

we'll consider it the bibles' way of saying read this and have a nice steaming hot cup of STFU.


without further ado, here are the scriptures that have torn my religion to pieces.:

Genesis 19


Sodom and Gomorrah Destroyed

1 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 "My lords," he said, "please turn aside to your servant's house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning."
"No," they answered, "we will spend the night in the square."
3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom-both young and old-surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."
9 "Get out of our way," they replied. And they said, "This fellow came here as an alien, and now he wants to play the judge! We'll treat you worse than them." They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.
10 But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. 11 Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.
12 The two men said to Lot, "Do you have anyone else here-sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, 13 because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the LORD against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it."
14 So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry his daughters. He said, "Hurry and get out of this place, because the LORD is about to destroy the city!" But his sons-in-law thought he was joking.
15 With the coming of dawn, the angels urged Lot, saying, "Hurry! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away when the city is punished."
16 When he hesitated, the men grasped his hand and the hands of his wife and of his two daughters and led them safely out of the city, for the LORD was merciful to them. 17 As soon as they had brought them out, one of them said, "Flee for your lives! Don't look back, and don't stop anywhere in the plain! Flee to the mountains or you will be swept away!"
18 But Lot said to them, "No, my lords, please! 19 Your servant has found favor in your eyes, and you have shown great kindness to me in sparing my life. But I can't flee to the mountains; this disaster will overtake me, and I'll die. 20 Look, here is a town near enough to run to, and it is small. Let me flee to it-it is very small, isn't it? Then my life will be spared."
21 He said to him, "Very well, I will grant this request too; I will not overthrow the town you speak of. 22 But flee there quickly, because I cannot do anything until you reach it." (That is why the town was called Zoar. )
23 By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. 24 Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah-from the LORD out of the heavens. 25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities-and also the vegetation in the land. 26 But Lot's wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.
27 Early the next morning Abraham got up and returned to the place where he had stood before the LORD . 28 He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, toward all the land of the plain, and he saw dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace.
29 So when God destroyed the cities of the plain, he remembered Abraham, and he brought Lot out of the catastrophe that overthrew the cities where Lot had lived.


Lot and His Daughters
30 Lot and his two daughters left Zoar and settled in the mountains, for he was afraid to stay in Zoar. He and his two daughters lived in a cave. 31 One day the older daughter said to the younger, "Our father is old, and there is no man around here to lie with us, as is the custom all over the earth. 32 Let's get our father to drink wine and then lie with him and preserve our family line through our father."
33 That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and lay with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.
34 The next day the older daughter said to the younger, "Last night I lay with my father. Let's get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and lie with him so we can preserve our family line through our father." 35 So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went and lay with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.
36 So both of Lot's daughters became pregnant by their father.



I left in the last few versus to further demonstrate some of the issues I have.
here goes nothing: (next post)
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Old 06-01-2003, 12:39 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: A Great Delimma

Quote:
Originally posted by WhoaitsZ
[B]

Genesis 19


Sodom and Gomorrah Destroyed

1 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 "My lords," he said, "please turn aside to your servant's house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning."
"No," they answered, "we will spend the night in the square."
3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom-both young and old-surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."

this indeed does point toward homosexuality, but it is of a violent, selfish, lustfull ready-to-rape attitude over all. the last thing i notice is that they are men wanting other men. the thing i notice is absolute hostility.

6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."
[/quote]

So Lot tries to ward off an evil crowd by using an evil tactic. Remember in church you're taught "you cannot fight fire with fire"? Meaning no magick can be used because it is evil and evil cannot kill evil. note the hypocrasy.

he willingly gives up his children to rapers, but isn't more evil than the mob because they wished for a man? WTF!?


Quote:
9 "Get out of our way," they replied. And they said, "This fellow came here as an alien, and now he wants to play the judge! We'll treat you worse than them." They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.
10 But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. 11 Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.
12 The two men said to Lot, "Do you have anyone else here-sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, 13 because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the LORD against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it."
they deserved to get smolted. no quarrel here.


Quote:
14 So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry his daughters. He said, "Hurry and get out of this place, because the LORD is about to destroy the city!" But his sons-in-law thought he was joking.
15 With the coming of dawn, the angels urged Lot, saying, "Hurry! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away when the city is punished."
16 When he hesitated, the men grasped his hand and the hands of his wife and of his two daughters and led them safely out of the city, for the LORD was merciful to them. 17 As soon as they had brought them out, one of them said, "Flee for your lives! Don't look back, and don't stop anywhere in the plain! Flee to the mountains or you will be swept away!"
18 But Lot said to them, "No, my lords, please! 19 Your servant has found favor in your eyes, and you have shown great kindness to me in sparing my life. But I can't flee to the mountains; this disaster will overtake me, and I'll die. 20 Look, here is a town near enough to run to, and it is small. Let me flee to it-it is very small, isn't it? Then my life will be spared."
21 He said to him, "Very well, I will grant this request too; I will not overthrow the town you speak of. 22 But flee there quickly, because I cannot do anything until you reach it." (That is why the town was called Zoar. )
23 By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. 24 Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah-from the LORD out of the heavens. 25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities-and also the vegetation in the land. 26 But Lot's wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.
27 Early the next morning Abraham got up and returned to the place where he had stood before the LORD . 28 He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, toward all the land of the plain, and he saw dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace.
29 So when God destroyed the cities of the plain, he remembered Abraham, and he brought Lot out of the catastrophe that overthrew the cities where Lot had lived.
that's it. all this fuss and lives torn asunder because of half-reading!

i know my post on this thread is fairly weak. it was thrown together. but I thought it something interesting to talk about.

the S&G didn't seem to be a "gay" problem, but a violent, lust-full, willing to rape mob.
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Old 06-01-2003, 01:28 PM   #3 (permalink)
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One

I take it you are aware that S&G is not the only place where God condemns homosexuality (or more strictly the homosexual act)?

"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman: it is an abomination" (Lev 18:22).

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall be put to death: their blood is upon them" (Lev 20:13).

"God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error" (Rom 1:26-27).

"Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers - none of these will inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor 6:9-10).

The condemnation of the law applies for those "who kill their father or mother, for murderers, fornicators, sodomites, slave traders, liars, perjurers" ( 1 Tim 1:9-10).

Two

Are you aware that there is a lot in the Bible that would indicate that Jesus IS God and IS the Holy Spirit? But not all Christians believe in the Trinity I grant you.

Three

Elsewhere on this board is my (now apparently dead) thread on petitionary prayer.
S&G is one of the classic cases/challenges of petitionary prayer.
Abraham seems to think he can (and does) barter with God on how many men must be found to be good in Sodom for it to be saved. It seems that Abraham has to remind God of his moral obligations! Surely this can't be happening!
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Old 06-01-2003, 02:14 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by 4thTimeLucky
One


"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman: it is an abomination" (Lev 18:22).

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall be put to death: their blood is upon them" (Lev 20:13).
both are OT, making it pretty much unrelivate now.

Quote:
"God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error" (Rom 1:26-27).

God gave them up to degrading passions. Could i get a definition, please?


"Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers - none of these will inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor 6:9-10).
uh that's a pretty big list up there. i take it gay = sodomites?


The condemnation of the law applies for those "who kill their father or mother, for murderers, fornicators, sodomites, slave traders, liars, perjurers" ( 1 Tim 1:9-10).

Two

Are you aware that there is a lot in the Bible that would indicate that Jesus IS God and IS the Holy Spirit? But not all Christians believe in the Trinity I grant you.

totally. The Trinity can be exaspirating to understand. God the Father, God the son (Christ), and the Holy Spirt.

all are one, but can work sepertely. during the OT God the Father acted alone. in the NT Jesus and the HG went to work also.

Christ is basically the lawyer, the Father a judge, the HG a kind of liason or secretary.


Three

Elsewhere on this board is my (now apparently dead) thread on petitionary prayer.
S&G is one of the classic cases/challenges of petitionary prayer.
Abraham seems to think he can (and does) barter with God on how many men must be found to be good in Sodom for it to be saved. It seems that Abraham has to remind God of his moral obligations! Surely this can't be happening! [/B]
sure it could happen and its one of the reason i don't see God as Pure Love, ya know?

but he did bargain, at least.

its all crazy and frightening.

i still feel very, very wrong inside for trying to condemn a gay person. God made them. maybe the Father is to blame for having made what they consider to be a 'flaw'.
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Old 06-02-2003, 05:30 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I dont subscribe to christianity but i can say that this like other "laws" of the bible was ment for the time and to take it out of context and bring it about ( i belive) 3000 years out of context is illogical. Homosexuality was a burden on the tribe. If you where homosexual then you where not taking care of a woman and therfore where not providing children and so there was no investment in the food and water in you. There was no child to do your work after you died. Likewise it was also the custom to send cripples out into the desert to die because they where a burden on the tribe so clearly this dose not apply to moddern day life and is yet anthor example of something being translate 30 times over and having lost meaning.
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Old 06-04-2003, 09:02 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by 4thTimeLucky
One"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman: it is an abomination" (Lev 18:22).

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall be put to death: their blood is upon them" (Lev 20:13).

"God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error" (Rom 1:26-27).

"Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers - none of these will inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor 6:9-10).

The condemnation of the law applies for those "who kill their father or mother, for murderers, fornicators, sodomites, slave traders, liars, perjurers" ( 1 Tim 1:9-10).
My issue with these passages has always been that they are rules of man and were tainted with the political realities of those preists and scribes that wrote (and/or copied) these stories.

The quotes from Leviticus, as KoKenZen rightly points out, are laws set out for a Nomadic tribe living about 3000 or more years ago. Hardly something that applies today. If it does why then are we not following all of the Talmudic laws and keeping Kosher. What, are we only following the rules we like to follow?


The other quotes come from Paul's letters. With each letter, Paul is trying to make some specific point and frequently his arguements are taken out of context (for example his oft quoted words that women should not be allowed to teach or speak in the church was specifically addressing the rise in false prophets and their influence on certain female members of the congregation, he was suggesting that care be taken before women under the influence of these false prophets be allowed to speak).

As for his comments on homosexuals... I cannot comment on the context in which they were made as I have not read and translated from the original text as I did with the above example. However, from my point of view, again this is simply a man providing rules for his followers. A man (not a God) writing at about 50 to 100 CE. Are we to take the attitudes and laws of that time at face value without first thinking what does this law mean in our time? Personally I would think not.



Quote:
Originally posted by 4thTimeLucky
Two

Are you aware that there is a lot in the Bible that would indicate that Jesus IS God and IS the Holy Spirit? But not all Christians believe in the Trinity I grant you.[/B]
This is were the Bible gets all mystical on us. Each of the Gospels are written with a specific audience in mind and therefore speak to that audience. Matthew (at least I think it is Matthew, its been a while) was aimed at a Jewish audience and so goes out of its way to directly link Jesus to King David. Right off the top there is a list of he begat so and so and she begat so and so, etc. The jewish audience needed a link to David to make the point that Jesus was the messiah. Other books take a different approach.

After all the Gospels were not written as an anthology. They were seperate stories which were only later bound together as one text.


Quote:
Originally posted by 4thTimeLucky
Three

Elsewhere on this board is my (now apparently dead) thread on petitionary prayer.
S&G is one of the classic cases/challenges of petitionary prayer.
Abraham seems to think he can (and does) barter with God on how many men must be found to be good in Sodom for it to be saved. It seems that Abraham has to remind God of his moral obligations! Surely this can't be happening! [/B]
It is happening... The early books are full of stuff like this. It seems that God was an interesting character in the earlier books and only later became quite aloof.

I will have to try and find it but I remember reading something about the nature of God in the Old Testament. He appears much like a parent and humans are much like his childeren...
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Old 06-04-2003, 02:10 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Charlatan, good post.

that's what i've been saying on a few threads.

God the Father was the only diety of the Trinity that did anything. you'll watch how The Father starts off as a sweet old man and then looses his temper and becomes downright hostile.

then comes jesus, the Son of the Trinity, to be part of the Trinity as flesh. The Father still passess Judgement, but all sins/deeds go through Christ first. if Christ wants, He can 'blakc out' your sins so The Father will find you blameless.

its pretty cool imo. it makes more sense (to me)

it's like...... a commitee.... the Father was a bit too rough so the Son played his hand at it.
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Old 06-04-2003, 03:02 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I am not a Christian and so what I say doesn't come out of a defence of any particular denomination, but:

- It seems that you either have to accept the Bible as the word of God or not. Either God wrote it (via humans) and gave it the okay, or it is a collection of human musings. Which you believe will make a big difference as to how you read it and treat its weirder or (seemingly) contradictory parts.

- The Trinity theory says that Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are the *same* person/thing. Now from a philosophical perspective I find this verging on nonsense, but I am willing to let that slide. My real issue is that you must decide what being the *same* person really means and how much of the Bible is therefore figurative or for show. It is not enough to talk of three people as if they lead seperate lives, have seperate characters and know different things and then at the last minute go "oh, but they are really all the same".
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Old 06-05-2003, 09:23 AM   #9 (permalink)
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ummm. you don't think that God could give us a blueprint and we could screw up?

I think God laid down the rules, me wrote. All things done through man will ultimately be messed up.

The Trinity can only be understood partially as a small governmant. they all thre support the other and work together, bu are indeed not the exact same.
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Old 06-16-2003, 10:31 PM   #10 (permalink)
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First thing I want to mention is the whole 'I was born gay' thing. I can't really see this as realistic either from a scientific standpoint or a religious one. science first: the thing that is most damning are the multiple Identical twin studies done. there have been so many where one twin is gay and the other is not. From a religious viewpoint it doesn't work either. If God says that Homosexuality is wrong, and then goes and creates people that have a genetic compulsion to sin, he is no longer God, but simply a powerful, sadistic being. I have talked to former homosexuals who have changed their lifestyle, and to psychologists who say that there are several things that can influence sexual preference. A single parent home or a disaproving/hating parent can create a desire/need for approval and love from a member of that sex, if the same sex as the person they may easily look for that in a sexual relationship.

On to my personal opinion. Be forewarned, I am a practicing Xtian, and rather conservative, but with some different opinions.

Primus, I think that homosexuality is a sin. It is wrong, and God doesn't like it. That is because he is GOD. Sin/wrongdoing/Evil is anathema to Him. I think that relativity of sin is a purely human invention. in God's eyes there is no difference between say stealing a candy bar from the local WalMart and in killing someone. Next, I too am a sinner. Maybe I have never had sex with another guy, but I have lied. I have never killed a man, but I have stolen someone else's property. and that is just as bad. I won't tell a homosexual that he is Evil, and damned, for being gay. I am as much of a sinner in my own way as him. I will tell him what I think of his actions, and I will make sure he understands my position on the issue, and I will expect him to call me on MY wrongdoings.

I'll stop here for now.
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Old 06-16-2003, 11:23 PM   #11 (permalink)
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first, i'll point you to my favorite resource on this: www.whosoever.org

This excerpt is from the FAQ:
"First off, Jesus says "whosoever believeth in me." There are no conditions on God's love. God does not say "change a few things, then come to me." No, God loves us as we are. We are to come to God just as we are. If there are issues of sin in our lives, God will deal with them, but we are accepted by God without condition.

Also, Paul assures us in Romans 8: 38-39: "Neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

What liberating words! NOTHING separates us from God. Not homosexuality, not disbelief in certain creeds, Bible passages, litanies or opinions of other believers. Not sin, not death, not anything. My fundamentalist friends, do you realize the freeing beauty of those words??? Nothing!! NOTHING! Will you take those words to heart? Will you believe the Holy Word Of God when it says NOTHING separates you from God??? Or will you continue to thump your Bible and point out all those who *you* believe have been separated from God?

The choice is yours."

I'm a fan of that...even if i would be slightly less confrontational...perhaps.

As a side issue on #3...one of my favorite book/programs is "Genisis" with Bill Moyers...it's a truely challenging text to study, and is very distinct theologically from "Xtian" ideas. God clearly bargains, changes decisions, and is otherwise much more anthropomorphic than in later, more sophisticated texts.
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Old 06-17-2003, 12:08 AM   #12 (permalink)
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just to start, i don't know why gay people are gay, i don't know enough and i don't know if any of us know enough to understand it, but i will say that i agree with your irritation with christians who consider gays "evil." christians have a bad habit of getting up on their high horse (me no exception) and looking down on other as sinful and evil without remembering that we too are just as sinful.

as to whether gay people can be cured, i can't say whether they can be cured or not without knowing why they are gay in the first place... but i figure it's safe to assume that their homosexuality can be cured just about as easily as my lying, vengeful demeanor or sexually impure thoughts... the fact is, they can't be "fixed" they can only be forgiven.
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Old 06-17-2003, 02:14 PM   #13 (permalink)
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i think to believe God is perfection is more than not right , but simply idiotic.

satan cannot exist if there weren't tumultious events and you can't have turmoil with perfection. if you're perfect, you are flawless, unable to be despised, yet god is often hated.

anyhow, i am straight. but i definatly believe it can be genetic. i dunno for sure, but i can see Christ damning someone cuz he was born differently. if that's the case i am surely hellbound.
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Old 06-22-2003, 02:45 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
i think to believe God is perfection is more than not right , but simply idiotic.
Boo.

Seriously...it's pretty farking rude to say things like that. It doesn't help your point any, either.

If you see Jesus as capable of damning somone because of their inborn sexuality...I'm sorry that that's the picture you've gotten. There are people out there more than willing to use distortions, and texts of terror and fear to cow people in to believing in their hardline views. But i think they kill the Jesus made known in the Gospels. This is perhaps going astray of topic...but i would ask what has made you say this.

Last edited by chavos; 06-22-2003 at 02:51 AM..
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Old 06-28-2003, 10:16 AM   #15 (permalink)
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i just realized I made a seriously bad typo.

"but i can see Christ damning someone cuz he was born differently."

i meant to say "but I can'T see..."
easy typo, but a serious one.
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